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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Longtime Trump Aide Hope Hicks Testifying. Aired 11:30a- 12p ET

Aired May 03, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

WILL SCHARF, TRUMP ATTORNEY: Jury here -- in front of the jury is so great that I think that was a real evidentiary mistake here. And we'll continue to look at our options there. I will say that, you know, we've seen over the last couple of days I think this came out most notably with Emil Bove's cross-examination of the forensic examiner over the last two days, that there are serious evidentiary holes with the case when we think about the proper chain of custody, when we think about normal evidentiary methods. And I think again, that's going to be a theme we're going to continue to see play out in the weeks ahead.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you so much for joining us as we have this tremendously dramatic moment happening as we speak in New York. Kaitlan, we're hearing from our colleagues in the courtroom that Hicks has now entered. She walked behind the galley behind Trump. Trump and Attorney Blanche smiled toward Hicks, Kaitlan.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And just to explain the layout of this courtroom, the witness enters through a door. They go in front of whoever's there, with Trump up that day. We know some of his political aides and other attorneys that aren't on this case are actually in the room.

But they walk behind the defense table, and then they make their way over to the witness stand. They are very close, within feet of the jurors. And so, they're much closer to the prosecution table as they sit there.

And it is obviously the prosecution who's going to start with these questions for Hope Hicks. She just said, "I'm really nervous while looking at the jury." Obviously, she is not someone who likes to be in the public eye.

Anyone who covered Donald Trump knows this when he once called her up onto a stage at a rally without her knowing beforehand that he was going to do that. She was kind of embarrassed as she made her way up there. She's very shy, and not someone who likes to speak publicly.

It doesn't surprise me that Donald Trump and Todd Blanche smiled as she passed him. It is -- she is still someone that Donald Trump sees fondly. I should note. She does no longer works for the former president in any official capacity. She is someone who returned to the White House, of course. But they did actually have a bit of a chilling effect on their relationship after her testimony came out before the January 6 committee where her text messages were revealed there of what she had said to other aides on that day lamenting what had happened. She believed to Donald Trump's legacy. So, a pivotal moment now that one of Donald Trump's closest aides is now on the witness stand in this Manhattan courtroom. We are told that Trump is looking towards Hope Hicks as she is beginning her testimony. He's leaned back in his chair.

Paula Reid and Laura Coates are back here with me. And, Paula, just to see Hope Hicks get up there, a reminder of what she was in 2016. It was kind of damage control mode when so many of these troublesome and damaging stories were coming out about Donald Trump.

And she was on the phone with Michael Cohen. She was on the phone with Donald Trump. She was the person reporters reached out to in most cases.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. She was the press secretary. She has of course been a close confidant for many years until recently, as you noted with the January 6 committee. She held multiple positions inside the White House.

But at the time in question, she was a press secretary for the campaign. And I think you're going to see prosecutors actually even started before 2016 going back to 2015 because David Pecker testified that Hope Hicks was in and out of that critical meeting between Pecker, Cohen, and Trump where Pecker said I will be your eyes, and ears, sort of sets the stage for the hush money payments and the catch and kill efforts that come.

Now, in the allegations against Michael Cohen and his federal case, prosecutors allege that Hope Hicks was on the phone when Michael Cohen and Trump were discussing the fact that Stormy Daniels wanted to sell her story. Now, Hope Hicks has subsequently testified that she was not aware of any hush money payment or any reimbursement which is really at the heart of this case. So, it'll be interesting to see how prosecutors walk through her testimony and what it is that they want.

Now apparently, she said I was enjoying -- Hope Hicks -- Hope Hicks is talking right now about her background, something to do with any witness. She said she began working for the Trump Organization full- time in October 2014.

COLLINS: And she was really young.

LAURA COATES ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

COLLINS: I mean, she started working for Donald Trump. She was in her mid-20s when she began working for the Trump Organization. And then when he announced that he was running for president, she went and worked for his campaign and went on in the outside the White House to be someone that he trusted deeply. I mean, Donald Trump had this circle around him. And Hope Hicks was certainly someone, you know, he would kind of yell through the walls to get her attention for her to come in. He was someone that she relied on, Laura, on a day-to-day basis and was certainly involved in even sensitive discussions. And she's testifying, I should note pursuant to a subpoena.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: She is paying for her own attorney, which is also significant here.

COATES: And distinct from what say, Rhona, his right-hand woman was doing, who has worked with Trump for 30-something years and talked about. But you see, her whole purpose here is essentially to be the connector between what the campaign was thinking about the fallout from the Access Hollywood tape and what the ultimate decision was in terms of paying. And there was a moment earlier today, there's an update that she had lost contact with him by the way, the last time she had contact with him was in the summer or fall of 2022.

You talk about that chilling effect opt to January 6 hearing. It's almost two years ago. And apparently, she walked by, and did not glance towards the defense table as well, although he is leaning back in his chair and apparently sweet -- smile towards her.

[11:35:05]

But there was a moment earlier today that we actually got two important tweets that came into evidence. And one was Donald Trump on October 16, 2016, saying polls close, but can you believe I lost large numbers of women voters based on made up events that never happened? Media rigging election.

Another one is nothing ever happened with any of these women. Talking about his respect. Then there's big one, the next day October 17. Can't believe these totally phony stories, a hundred percent made up by women, many already proven false and pushed big time by the press, have impact.

That's important because we want to understand what the prosecution's case is. They want to prove that there was a reason why they wanted to contain the fallout from the Access Hollywood tape. Him coming out on Twitter and making the statement not going to be enough.

COLLINS: Yes.

COATES: And also --

COLLINS: And Hope Hicks to their relationship right now, Laura, what you were just saying is that she says they've been spoken in nearly two years.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: Trump is not a client of hers in her current professional role. She says that she hasn't worked with them. And we're hearing she -- this is not someone who often speaks publicly.

And she's very nervous. She's made that clear several times. She says she's getting used to hearing her own voice on the microphone in the courtroom.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: It's a small kind of dingy courtroom but it is just an unusual moment to be sitting there with all of this huge team of prosecutors, 12 jurors to your left. It also kind of speaks to this moment of all these people in Trump's orbit who have been brought into this. I mean, Hope Hicks was subpoenaed to be here. She did not want to be here, but she was at the center of the story that the prosecution --

COATES: And she's paying for her attorney. That's an important part here. Because if you were trying to show that some witness is either leaning in one direction or the other, your immediate -- your almost spidey senses go up and say, well, hold on, if he's paying for your attorney, does that mean that you're beholden to him and his team or are you more independent and be motivated singularly?

She's paying for our own counsel. Not talking to him. That actually ups her own credibility in terms of her objectivity.

REID: And I think there's no one who's been in Trump's orbit over the past seven years who hasn't ended up either, you know, testifying before Congress, testifying in a court of law or themselves indicted, right? It speaks to the blast radius of a lot of his conduct. This is one of his closest confidants. She was like a daughter to him. And here she is, in a court of law, clearly very nervous and having to testify about things that he and Michael Cohen allegedly did.

COLLINS: Yes. And Hope Hicks is someone who can shed light on this. I mean, we knew she spoke to the grand jury, I believe it was about a year ago. Right before he was indicted, she was one of the last witnesses that we knew in his orbit that had gone before them.

And as she is at the center of this, you know, she was always the one that reporters reached out to. She issued a lot of these denials. And so, I imagine prosecutors are going to ask her, when you went to Donald Trump and asked him about this, what was he saying to you directly?

COATES: And why was he so concerned? That's the key. Remember, the fact that there was a catch and kill not inherently illegal. If he wanted to simply protect his family and his marriage, that could be a consideration for this judge and the jury, right? But the question is if you were doing it for the purpose of trying to influence the campaign.

Now, the criteria in New York has to be wasn't a substantial reason. It can't be like, you know, if there's a small Iota that you were trying to have the campaign and the overwhelming aspect was for your wife and family to hide it from, that's different than being substantial. And so, the question for her is going to be why? Why did they want this story contained?

What was in -- and also, she says in 2014, she started as the director of communications for the Trump Organization. She would have knowledge from two years prior to any of this coming out from catch and kill and beyond and before the election. But again, it's important to figure out what she knows about the motivation. That's why she's so important to the prosecution.

What did you know? Then uncross the course. Now, you're talking about the equivalent of how to treat her. Is it as a hostile witness?

She was -- she apparently is not one. Is it about trying to understand and so her as the nervous, I don't want to be here, they're making up here, you don't really know anything, do you, but they want you to be here? And then she also says that she began to have with Trump contact more frequently.

Remember, she said, I'm working with Ivanka if I'm not mistaken. That was her original entree into the Trump family and then became this. And she says he's a very good multitasker. He's a very hard worker. He's always doing many things at once.

COLLINS: So --

COATES: OK.

COLLINS: Can I -- can I say, you know, hearing her say that -- you just brought up Rhona Graff --

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: Who was Donald Trump's longtime executive assistant that came and testified and also said really positive things about Trump? But also said she saw Stormy Daniels outside of his office on the 26th floor of Trump Tower.

COATES: Right.

COLLINS: That Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal were in his context. Hope Hicks is someone who is getting up there. She doesn't have an axe to grind against Donald Trump. She doesn't -- she hasn't spoken to him in two years, which is also really notable.

And I should note she's saying that it was not unusual for her to be in and out of his office as she was getting closer to him and working in that political work. And so far, we -- our reporters in the courtroom say that she is avoided looking directly at her former boss, Donald Trump. But I also think she's someone who is going to be believable to this jury because she's incredible because she's not someone who is there, you know, as we'll likely see with Michael Cohen who has a very different demeanor.

[11:40:02]

REID: Yes. So, I think they're just going to focus on the facts, you know, the prosecution. Right? What was discussed in that meeting with David Pecker? What was your role in the campaign? By 2015, Hicks said that she spoke with Trump on the phone every day, if we weren't able to communicate in person.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: Well, and that update right before at 11:39 was important because she said, basically, everyone who works there, reports to Trump.

REID: That's right.

COLLINS: She -- that's a chain of command that they're establishing.

REID: That's really key. And I think they're going to want to talk about you know, these discussions about Daniels looking for money. She said I would occasionally call the office and be connected. But he had a cell phone or home phone number as well. So, she's clearly very close to him.

And prosecutors are going to want to hone in on what she heard from Michael Cohen, what she could have potentially heard about, you know, efforts to buy stories to catch and kill stories. And then you're also going to want to talk to her about the Access Hollywood tape, not necessarily the content of it, but the impact that it had on the campaign. How much pressure was the campaign under? How was the former -- the then-candidate Trump reacting to this? Because again, that is such a key part of the timeline here to make the argument that this was done to help his chances in the election.

COLLINS: And this is -- this is a name that has not really been brought up. Keith Schiller. Everyone who covers Donald Trump -- the White House remembers Keith Schiller or just Trump. He has been Trump's longtime bodyguard.

Essentially, he was his bodyman inside the White House. He traveled and accompanied Trump on basically every trip he went on. And Hope Hicks is now saying that Trump had a close relationship with Keith Schiller.

Laura, for people who don't remember, Keith Schiller was the one who delivered the note --

COATES: Right.

COLLINS: To the Justice Department when they fired James Comey.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: CNN found that out because our -- (INAUDIBLE) spotted Keith Schiller coming out of the DOJ which was very unusual --

COATES: Unbelievable.

COLLINS: Because you don't typically see the president's bodyguard over at the DOJ. But this is speaking to who was around Donald Trump when all of this hap -- was happening at that time. COATES: Yes. And interestingly as well, remember we have to go back to witness update right now we're having from the courtroom. As to Don Jr., Eric, and Ivanka, Hicks gestures her hand toward the defense table. They are Mr. Trump's children saying keeping her eyes towards the prosecutors. Only her hand motions are going towards him not her eyes, but here's what's important.

Remember, this is a falsified business records case. Her talking about the fact that he had his hands kind of in everything, a multitasker. Go back to David Pecker's testimony when he says that he remembers Trump walking in, and he goes Rona Graff coming in to show him invoices.

And he was aware that there were invoices when he was signing, he had a new and had knowledge of things. Never forget that the prosecution has to keep returning to why we're here. It's not just about Access Hollywood. It's about the 34 counts of whether he has falsified business records from the actual file.

And here we go. A new update. Hicks is talking about Rhona Graff. And she says she was crucial to how everything ran on the 26th floor. She had a lot of institutional knowledge.

So, the jury is going to go back to notes and think well, what do I remember her? I remember Stormy Daniels was in the contact information. I remember Karen McDougal was there as well, that she may have been in Trump Tower. There was a conversation about whether she was getting the cast in Celebrity Apprentice. And then he was respectful.

COLLINS: And she said that Rhona Graff was crucial to have everything run on the 26th floor --

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: Outside of Trump's office. And kind of described the Trump org as a small family business saying that, you know, it was a compact group of people who were in, all that was happening. And the prosecutor is asking her, are you familiar with someone named Allen Weisselberg?

Of course, Allen Weisselberg right now and Hope Hicks said yes. he's sitting in a prison in New York because he just pleaded guilty for -- or took a plea deal for the second time. He is notably not expected to be a witness here, which stands out given his crucial role in bookkeeping and the money of the Trump Organization.

REID: Yes. The two convictions for lying though basically make him useless to either side, even though he has come up multiple times. We even heard Cohen and Trump talking about how Allen Weisselberg had allegedly advised Cohen about setting up that shell company or setting up a company to pay Karen McDougal money. So, he would have been a helpful witness perhaps even for the defense because they're going to bring out a bunch of Trump Organization employees, who were going to say something very different about Trump's knowledge of how these invoices were made, his knowledge to how Cohen was being paid back. That is their strategy. He could potentially have been useful to them. But at this point, given his multiple convictions for lying, he is not expected to be a witness.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Hope Hicks, who --

COATES: Right.

COLLINS: Is someone who can say well, Allen Weisselberg did this. Michael Cohen did this. Rhona Graff did this. I did this. I mean, she can speak intimately to the inner workings of the Trump circle.

COATES: Yes. But what she has to also say is that nothing was done without Donald Trump. You know, the defense is going to try to paint a picture of sycophants, who are -- I mean, the word fixer.

We use it very loosely and talk about he fixed problems. But did he fix problems that Trump was aware of? And did it at the direction of Trump exclusively or did he autonomously independently fix things before the Big Boss even knew about it?

If that's the case -- that the latter is the case, and you have been very different in your ability to prove that Donald Trump may -- he's the defendant here, that Donald Trump intentionally did something to try to cover up a different crime, this being campaign finance contributions and not disclosing them, and did so with an intent of trying to influence the actual campaign and falsify business records.

[11:45:02]

So, if she's going to come and say, Allen Weisselberg handled all the invoices, Trump just sort of signed off, he trusted what they had to say, what they were going to do, their long-term relationship made it such that Trump did not really glance several times what was in front of him, that's difficult. Now, Hicks also said that when she was hitting to the campaign work, it was Weisselberg who help with the personal financial disclosure Trump was required to provide, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And that's notable, Dana, because Hope Hicks was someone who is obviously running in a top position on a campaign that we talked about what the 2024 campaign looks like. The 2016 Trump campaign was chaotic. And I'm -- that's a generous term to describe it.

BASH: Yes.

COLLINS: So, when she's saying that Allen Weisselberg helped with the personal financial disclosure form that Trump was asked to provide, she is saying that this is someone who is directly involved in the finance aspect of this, and these forms that we were turning over. And she's saying that Allen Weisselberg, who as Paula, noted has two convictions, provided an explanation that they'd share with the press about how Trump "self-financed his campaign. Obviously, Dana, he never put anywhere near as much money in his campaign as he had publicly boasted that he was going to do. BASH: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Kaitlan. And as we talk more around the table, Kristen, I want to bring you in. And we're going to -- forgive me ahead of time for interrupting because we're going to really stay on these updates that are coming in very quickly. Colangelo who is on the prosecution side asks about Michael Cohen's role at the Trump org. So, so far, we've seen him kind of establish who Hope Hicks is, and how well she knows all of the players. This is the key -- the most key player so far.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And remember it was a really small group of people at this time. And Hope was everywhere. She knew Michael Cohen very well. She knew Allen Weisselberg. These were people who had come from other parts of Donald Trump's life who could have came into the campaign because there was no actual campaign.

Kaitlan was talking about the chaos that was there. They were bringing people in. They were firing people. They were bringing in people from Trump's past.

I mean, Roger Stone was advising at one point. Paul Manafort was somebody who Trump had worked with years ago. I mean, these are the people who had kind of really helped form who Trump was as a businessman and been part of his life and his days in New York.

Hope Hicks was part of all of that. She was there really running point. And something you said earlier, I think is really important.

Donald Trump now, he does text. But he didn't text before. Didn't use e-mail. If you got a call from Hope Hicks, at that time period, you thought Donald Trump might be calling you because he was by her side.

BASH: Yes.

HOLMES: And that's when you would say, OK, this might be Donald Trump. I need to get on the phone.

BASH: Yes. I mean, hi, Mr. Trump, for you.

HOLMES: Right.

BASH: Hope Hicks says she doesn't specifically know what Cohen did, but that he was involved in some license deals for hotel projects, and some of the entertainment pieces, Jamie.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, it's very interesting that she doesn't specifically know. I would assume the prosecutors would like her to describe what the relationship was like, how Cohen interacted with Trump to give some context to that. So, this is --

BASH: Hicks is explaining how she began working for Trump's presidential campaign in 2015. "Mr. Trump one day said, we're going to Iowa, and I didn't really know why." I mean. That's actually classic.

HOLMES: Yes.

GANGEL: Right.

BASH: Because she -- to say that she was a political is an understatement. That initial Iowa trip was sometime in January of 2015. I mean, she came from the corporate PR world, and he had very, very few people around him who knew politics. They also came from that world.

She ended up as the press person on the campaign, but she didn't even know why they would go to Iowa. That's very telling. Trump and Blanche appear to be watching her testimony on the scream -- the screen above them in the courtroom, Elie.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Not sure why they wouldn't just look at the witness. I mean, she's right there. Here's what prosecutors are building up to here, ultimately.

Hope Hicks was the ultimate insider, as you all -- three of you know. And prosecutors are focused on this crucial moment in time right after the Access Hollywood tape drops, October 2016, weeks before the election. And the way Matthew Colangelo described that moment during his opening is that the campaign went into "damage control mode."

And I think they're going to elicit from Hope Hicks, what was happening inside the campaign. How concerned were you? The other crucial thing is Hope Hicks was in and out of a viral meeting in August of 2016 between Trump, Cohen, and Pecker. (INAUDIBLE)

BASH: And, Jim, Hicks recalls Trump at one point saying she'd be the campaign's press secretary, and she thought it was a joke because she's had no political experience. Hicks says she spent so much time working on the campaign. It eventually just ended up that way, Jim.

JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: Learning on the job, right?

HOLMES: Yes.

SCHULTZ: And going to Iowa and then jumping right into it. I do think -- look, we're seeing her be very candid, I think. Right? I -- and I think she's giving kind of an honest view --

BASH: About herself.

SCHULTZ: About herself, what her role was, you know, saying that she's nervous. I believe she was very nervous when she -- when she started this.

[11:50:04]

BASH: I just going to interrupt you by saying that Hicks on her role as press secretary, it was kind of constant -- a constant flow of incoming questions. So, I managed all of those and tried to respond to everybody in a timely manner. It was just me and Mr. Trump who is better than anybody at communications and branding.

SCHULTZ: Yes, definitely playing to the boss here. But also, you know, that's what she honestly thinks.

BASH: And there was no communications team at this point in the campaign, she says. She was it and he was it.

SCHULTZ: Sure. They got on a plan. They're going to Iowa. And she's got to take all the incoming and respond to everything. And, you know, eventually, that team grew.

I do think that you know, again, she's being very candid here about her role. She's being very candid about Trump at this point in time and what he did and how he operated. Kind of funny that she said, I don't really know what Michael Cohen did. Like, what role he played. Like, I'm not sure what the guy did around the office all the time.

HOLMES: Dana, I want --

SCHULTZ: That's kind of telling.

HOLMES: I want to point out one thing because actually I just remembered these anecdotes. My husband was embedded on the Trump campaign in 2016. I remember him telling me a story about how the very beginning he reached out to Hope for something and she responded off the record and on background from a source but not off the record.

And he was like, wait, what's happening? And now -- I mean, just reliving this that, you know, she was brand new to that. She fell into this role and was learning on the job, as you said.

GANGEL: She tells us a self-deprecating story about herself. She didn't know what a caucus was when they went out --

BASH: Yes. I mean, she said why are we --

GANGEL: To Iowa.

BASH: Going to Iowa.

GANGEL: To other things. We really didn't hear her voice for a long, long time. She was the rare communications person who didn't speak to the press. Of course, Donald Trump did. But I think that what you're seeing here again, and this is even more than Pecker, someone who the prosecution knows is presenting themselves to the jury, as someone who is not hostile to Donald Trump.

BASH: Yes, very much.

CAROLYN KOCH, TRIAL & JURY CONSULTANT: I think it's a -- I think it's a problem. And again, you know, the jury can prove us all wrong here. But I think she's acting like a character witness.

And I don't think they're intending that to happen because there's two buckets of witnesses here. There's the dirty ones, the bottom feeders, who are trying to come up with a deal so they can get really what seems like chump change. 130k seems like not a big deal. And then you've got these clean witnesses, who are -- she's a very attractive female. She was very young. The kind of person who could be taken advantage of. And she's got this deep trusting relationship and all these opportunities. I think she accidentally serves as a character witness.

BASH: Hicks says Trump was "very involved in his campaign and weighed in on media responses." I reported to Mr. Trump, Hicks says, of her role on the campaign. I hear what you're saying that so far, she seems like a character witness. But they're just getting started.

KOCH: Right.

HONIG: Yes. Let me give you the other side of that. Hope Hicks, it is clear does not harbor ill will towards Donald Trump.

BASH: Right.

HONIG: Respects him and admires him. Prosecutors know what she's going to say, to Jamie's point. She's already testified in the grand jury. They're not going to get surprised right now. So, they think she has something useful to their case.

BASH: And, Elie.

HONIG: Yes.

BASH: Hicks of Trump. He knew what he wanted to say and how he wanted to say it. And then she wants -- she's going on to say Trump deserves the credit for the different messages that the campaign focused on in terms of the agenda that he put forth.

HONIG: So again, an admirer of Donald Trump. And so, if and when she says something that's helpful for the prosecution's case, it's going to hit extra hard in favor of the prosecution because you can't say this is a person who has a gripe or a beef with Donald Trump. Certainly, that would apply to Michael Cohen and perhaps others we've heard from.

But -- so she can be a really powerful witness for the prosecution. And again, they know. They're not going to get surprised. They know what she's going to say.

BASH: Yes. And I -- it does seem like she's, you know, kind of buttering him up, and he's a character witness if you will. It also happens as somebody -- and we all did, covered this in real time. She's also telling the truth.

GANGEL: Yes.

BASH: I mean, he was a one-man band.

GANGEL: Right.

BASH: And he did know what he wanted to do. And he was a marketing person and still is. I mean, we see it every day. Trump has turned his head at times toward Hicks, including when she said he deserved credit for the campaign messaging. There you go. GANGEL: So, big picture. She was the rare person in the Trump orbit, who was well-liked by almost everybody inside the campaign and with the media, as well, even if she didn't know on the record, on background.

BASH: Right.

GANGEL: But --

BASH: Hicks says she checked with Trump before making statements to the press and traveled with him during the campaign "almost every day." Forgive me, Jamie.

GANGEL: So, I just wanted to point to why their relationship went south after her January 6 testimony came out, why there was a chill. There is a text exchange that became public as a result of the January 6 hearings, where Hope is talking to Julie Radford who spoke -- who worked with Ivanka Trump. And Hope says in one day, he ended every future opportunity that doesn't include speaking engagements at the local Proud Boys' chapter.

[11:55:06]

Radford says, yes. Hope goes on and says, and all of us that didn't have jobs lined up will be perpetually unemployed. I'm so mad and upset. We all look like domestic terrorists now. That -- when that comes out, that text exchanges public, that speaks to why they haven't spoken since 2022.

HOLMES: But he's so fond of her.

GANGEL: Absolutely.

HOLMES: They -- it kind of puts, as you said, at a chill, I think is the best way to put it because he still speaks very highly of her. This is not again an adversarial witness. This is not a relationship that was completely ruined in any way, I think. Just going through what they went through on the campaign, they clearly -- you know, it was the two of them for a very long time.

HONIG: Yes.

HOLMES: And I think they still hold a mutual respect for each other.

BASH: Yes, absolutely. OK. As we continue to watch and listen to this very dramatic, very important testimony from Hope Hicks, the longtime Trump aide who went from the Trump Organization as she just described, to the Trump campaign and eventually to the White House. Prosecutors are using Hicks as a tour guide to Trump's universe, asking her about the key players in his orbit, what they did, and if they did anything without the direction of the boss, the former president.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. Don't go anywhere.

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