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Colleges Struggle To Control Campuses As Protests Grow; Sen. Sanders: Criticism Of Netanyahu's Government Is "Not Anti-Semitic"; Trump's Hush Money Trial Resumes Tomorrow. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired April 29, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Universities on edge right now. Pro- Palestinian protests continue to erupt across campuses nationwide with tensions reaching a boiling point. Our reporters are live on the scene.

And Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Saudi Arabia right now for talks on a possible ceasefire in Gaza. Secretary Blinken urging Hamas to accept what he calls Israel's, and I'm quoting him now, extraordinarily generous proposal.

And Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial resumes tomorrow as we're still waiting on a ruling from the judge on Trump's alleged violations of the gag order.

Hello, and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington and you're in the CNN Newsroom.

There is a major new development unfolding over at Columbia University in New York, the epicenter of college protests over the Israel-Hamas war and the growing civilian bloodshed in Gaza.

Just a short time ago, Columbia officials said talks with student organizers have failed to come to an agreement. Columbia is asking that protesters break down their tents at the encampment and voluntarily leave.

Over the weekend, more protests and anger have erupted across the country. On UCLA's campus yesterday, demonstrators breached a security barrier meant to separate opposing protest groups. Police quickly scrambled officers in riot gear.

On the Virginia Tech University campus, protesters were detained as the crowd chanted at police. Shame on you. University officials say the on campus encampment had worsened with the potential to become unsafe. Arrests have been made at campuses nationwide as more schools turn to police to rein in the demonstrations. Some schools are threatening to suspend students and could cancel upcoming commencement ceremonies. Let's begin our coverage this hour with CNN's Omar Jimenez. He's breaking all the news for us out of Columbia University in New York. Omar, what's the latest? OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we're just learning right

now that the university has set a 02:00 p.m. Eastern deadline for students to clear the encampment. Otherwise they will face suspension and ineligibility to finish the semester on good standing.

Now, part of the documentation that, as we understand, was just distributed over the last hour or so wants the students to sign on to an agreement that they will follow university policies. And in particular, I want to read a quote from this document saying, in bold, if you do not identify yourself upon leaving and sign the form now, you will not be eligible to sign and complete the semester in good standing. If you do not leave by 02:00 p.m., you will be suspended pending further investigation.

Now this comes as Columbia University president Minouche Shafik released statement this morning saying that essentially negotiations between student protesters and the university hit an impasse, effectively the end of negotiations.

One of the headlines from that letter that she put out is saying that Columbia University will not divest from Israel, which of course, was one of the central points of why this encampment actually began at this university.

Now, also, as part of that letter, it said that they would invest in health -- in healthcare and education in Gaza, but also that while they've tried to foster an environment for constructive conversation and even provide a space for protest, that some of the encampment and some of the tactics around it, in and around the campus have created an environment that was not welcome for Jewish students, for many Jewish students, and so much so to the point that many chose to leave campus, a dynamic that the president called absolutely tragic.

And then, of course, we are a little bit over two weeks away from graduation at this point. Today is the final day of classes. We're beginning finals, and then again, graduation a little bit over two weeks from now. And the university made the point this morning saying they will have a commencement in part because the graduating class was virtual when they came in their freshman years.

[11:05:17]

But making the point now to say they will have a commencement at the very least indicating that they plan to have this encampment resolved by the time we get to that point. How it is resolved and in what way, we still do not know. We are just now seeing those first steps, again, university setting that afternoon deadline for students to leave this camp or face suspension. Wolf?

BLITZER: Omar Jimenez over at Columbia University in New York. Omar, thank you very much.

Let's continue our conversation right now with CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell. Josh, police, as you well know, have arrested hundreds of protesters, students, professors, activists across the country. Do police need to have a tactical game plan when they wade into these protests on college campuses?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf, it is essential. You know, the police have obviously been thrust into this ongoing issue. And regardless of what side protesters are on and how righteous their cause might be, there is no First Amendment right to protest on private property. And that's where the police have often been brought into some of these universities to try to clear them of trespassers.

But as you mentioned, of course, Wolf, it's important for authorities to have a game plan. You know, there's a big difference between crowd management and crowd control. In crowd management, you have officers that are there on standby just in case something happens. Sometimes they'll facilitate First Amendment activity. And crowd control, you're trying to get the protesters to do something that you want to do.

And when these dispersal orders go out, when the campuses want their campuses clear, that's not time for debate in the view of the police. But of course, it's important for them to do that work. Optics are obviously very important to do it in the way that requires the least amount of force possible, Wolf.

BLITZER: How warranted, Josh, are the criticisms that some of these police departments are facing?

CAMPBELL: Well, some of the actions we've seen have certainly raised serious questions, including this incident that recently happened on the campus of Emory University involving an economics professor. Have a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground. Hey, get on the ground. Get on the ground. Get on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now, just for context, as that professor was being taken away in handcuffs, she said that there was this officer on the ground who was trying to arrest someone. She came up to that officer and, quote, lightly tapped him to try to get his attention. That, of course, objectively unwise. And it's certainly a crime in Georgia to touch a police officer in a provoking way, as it's a crime, you know, in most states across the U.S. Of course, the big question here, that forceful takedown to the ground, was that warranted? Was that necessary? Was there another way that they could have done that in a way that de-escalated the situation while still getting her into custody?

But we have seen instances, Wolf, where police have done just that, including last week here in California at the USC. There was this really volatile situation where a protester was put into a squad car, believe we have video of that. That squad car surrounded by other protesters, resulting in this very tense situation. Our friend Nick Watt was right there on the scene as this was happening. What authorities ultimately did was have that person released. They made the decision, the on scene commander, that that was the way to de-escalate. And you actually see that individual as he stepped out of the crowd, actually helping push people back, telling the crowd to go away. That obviously a good resolution. There was a question about whether that could then, you know, look as capitulation to this crowd.

But of course, for authorities, their job is to try to reduce the tensions in this very volatile situation. We will, of course, continue to see more of these protests, Wolf, and the police will certainly be under the microscope.

BLITZER: Yes. The way that police officer took down that Emory University professor, that was so, so terrible. There's other ways to deal with problems like that and not deal with it the way that police officer did. Josh Campbell, thank you very, very much for that update.

Also happening right now, the secretary of state is in Saudi Arabia with a potential ceasefire deal between Hamas and Israel now on the table. This morning, Antony Blinken said Israel has presented the militant group, and I'm quoting him now, with an extraordinarily generous proposal, adding that Hamas is the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire. CNN's Jeremy Diamond is joining us live from Jerusalem right now. So what are the details of this latest proposal, Jeremy?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the next few days are going to be really critical to determining whether or not a deal is even possible or whether instead the Israeli military will move forward with a major ground offensive into the Gaza southernmost city of Rafah. And as it stands, there is a new Egyptian framework on the table that has been crafted in cooperation with Israeli officials with significant input from the Israelis, although they haven't agreed to all of the terms.

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But here are the details, 20 to 33 Israeli hostages would be released over the course of several weeks in exchange for Palestinian prisoners as part of a first phase of this agreement. But there is also a second phase here that we're talking about, which is a one year restoration of sustainable calm, effectively diplomatic speak, for some kind of a permanent ceasefire that would see Israeli troops withdraw from the Gaza Strip and that would also see the release of the remaining Israeli hostages, including the bodies of those hostages who are now dead.

Now Hamas officials are currently in Cairo discussing this proposal. The proposal is also in the hands of Yahya Sinwar, Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip, and his response is expected over the next day or the next several days. Israeli officials, a working level delegation, expected to travel to Cairo tomorrow to pursue these negotiations. There's no question that the Israeli position has really shifted significantly over the course of the last month.

They have been willing to accept now fewer hostages for that first phase of the agreement. They're also in this framework allowing for the unrestricted access of Palestinians to return to northern Gaza, something that the Israelis had refused to do so far. And that has been a major sticking point for Hamas.

But the question now is, will it all be enough for Hamas to be able to move forward, or will we instead see Israeli troops beginning to move into Rafah in the coming weeks?

BLITZER: Jeremy Diamond in Jerusalem for us, thanks for that update.

Let's discuss all of these dramatic developments with the former democratic congressman, the CEO now of the American Jewish Committee, Ted Deutch. Ted, thank you very much for joining us. What would a potential ceasefire mean for the rising tensions we're seeing dramatically across college campuses here in the United States?

We're going to fix that -- we're going to fix his audio. Let's take a quick break. We'll continue our conversation with Ted Deutch right after this.

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BLITZER: We've reconnected with the former Democratic congressman from Florida, the CEO now of the American Jewish Committee, Ted Deutch. Ted, thanks once again for joining us. What would a potential ceasefire in Gaza mean for the rising tensions we're seeing all across these college campuses here in the United States?

TED DEUTCH, CEO, AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE: Well, Wolf, I appreciate the question. It's due time that we connect what's happening with Hamas. The fact that they're holding 133 hostages, six Americans for now over 200 days, that they have control of ending this if they return the hostages and they surrender.

And on college campuses, the reason that Jewish students are at risk is because the protesters, so many of the protesters aren't calling for the release of hostages. They're not making demands of the butcher, Sinwar, who slaughtered over 1200 people on 10/7, they're calling for more 10/7. They're taking -- they're calling for action against Zionists. They're calling for intifada and more terrorism. We need to get to a point where the hostages are released. Hamas needs to do that. That's a significant step forward. And on college campuses, these protesters need to be held to account.

When they violate the codes of student conduct on their campuses, universities must hold them accountable. And putting Jewish students at risk and targeting one group for harassment and intimidation is a violation of any student code. And there has to be accountability.

BLITZER: Ted, I want to play a little clip of how Senator Bernie Sanders yesterday characterized the turmoil on college campuses during an interview with my colleague Dana Bash. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BERNIE SANDER (I-VT): Do I doubt for a moment that anti-Semitism exists and is growing in the United States that is part -- that exists among some people in the protest movement, of course. But here is the reality. Right now, what Netanyahu's right wing extremist and racist government is doing is unprecedented in the modern history of warfare. Right now, we are looking at the possibility of mass starvation and famine in Gaza. When you make those charges, that is not anti-Semitic. That is a reality.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I want to get your reaction to what the senator said.

DEUTCH: Yes, I don't need Senator Sanders to lecture me about the reality of what's happening on college campuses. I spent time with students from Columbia, from Rutgers, from Brown last week. And it is not peaceful protests that has people screaming for more 10/7s, so 10/7 every day, a thousand 10/7s, 10,000 10/7s. It's not political discourse to tell Jews that they should be gassed.

It's nothing -- it's no free speech expression to say that Jews should go back to Poland, where 90 percent of the Jewish population was slaughtered during the Holocaust. With all due respect to Senator Bernie Sanders, what's happening on college campuses right now from so many of these protesters who are out advocating on behalf of the Hamas terrorists who slaughter 1,200 is absolutely dangerous. It is inconsistent with the very things that Senator Sanders says that he actually cares about, which is free speech and the ability for everyone's voice to be heard.

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There is not another group. There is not. Let me be clear about this, Wolf. There's not another group that would be the target, the focus of this kind of harassment and intimidation, where people would look for some justification for it would rightfully be condemned. That's what we all, including Senator Sanders, that's what we all need to do right now about what's happening on campus so that the campus can be a place where every student is respected and no students are silenced, certainly not just because they are Jews and support Israel.

BLITZER: Senator Sanders says he was emphasizing his and many others outrage over the enormous civilian casualties in Gaza. Many of these students are peaceful protesters. Do you support, first of all, students' rights to peacefully protest this war?

DEUTCH: Of course, peaceful protest is central to what happens in a free democracy. Of course that's the case. But when these students, and let's be clear, they're not all students, a lot of them are outside agitators as well. But when anyone takes a position that puts an entire group at risk, that calls for terrorism, that applauds what happened on 10/7 and applauded literally, there was applause heard when the announcement was made that Iran was launching close to 350 missiles and drones at Israel, when they're learning to say death to Israel in Farsi, when they are celebrating the Houthis, a terrorist group, and they don't spend a second calling out Hezbollah or the Houthis or the militias in Syria, the Iran back militias or the militias in Iraq, and they don't say a word about the genocidal regime in Iran that's bent on real genocide, which is the destruction of Israel and Hamas, which caused all of this, which exists, Wolf, for the sole purpose of destroying Israel and slaughtering Jews.

When they are silent on all of that and they seek to encourage violence against Jews. That is not the tradition of free speech that we celebrate on college campuses. It's anathema to that. And it does great harm to all of us who believe that college campuses must be safe for everyone and speech by every group must be heard.

BLITZER: Ted Deutch of the American Jewish Committee. Ted, thank you very much for joining us.

DEUTCH: Thank you Wolf.

BLITZER: Meanwhile, in New York, at any moment, Judge Juan Merchan could rule on whether Donald Trump violated the gag order in historic criminal hush money trial. The courtroom is dark today, giving jurors an extra day to digest what they heard during the first full week of testimony. On Friday, the defense finished its cross examination of former tabloid publisher David Pecker.

Tomorrow, banker Gary Farrow will continue his testimony. He is expected to walk the jury through the paper trail at the center of this trial. Joining us now for more analysis on what's going on, CNN senior political analyst and senior editor at the Atlantic, Ron Brownstein and CNN legal analyst and former chief assistant Manhattan District Attorney Karen Friedman Agnifilo. She is currently a counsel for a firm that represents Michael Cohen, but she does not work on that case and there are no restrictions on what she can say about it.

Let me start with you, Ron. Let me get your takeaway, first of all, on the first week of actual testimony in this historic trial, the first time, a former president of the United States has ever faced a criminal trial.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, you know, it was kind of a look under the hood at the seedy world of the tabloids and catch and kill and the cozy relationship between Trump and the National Enquirer in 2016. You know, from a political perspective, I will leave the legal questions to my colleague here. From a political perspective, you know, this has been from the beginning, the case that fewer Americans view as, you know, fundamentally serious that Trump broke the law or that it reflected on his fitness to be president.

I think that the impact of this case really will come when we get to the finish line. I mean, given that, you know, voters are less likely to think this really reflects on his fitness to be president. They do, though, continue to express concern about electing someone who may be a convicted felon to the chief law enforcement officer of the United States. And I think it will be that binary choice at the end if, in fact, there is a conviction where voters have to grapple with the magnitude of putting someone in the presidency who is in that position where this case will have a political impact, if it is too, at all.

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BLITZER: All right, let's get the legal analysis from Karen right now. Karen, what are you anticipating when the trial in New York resumes tomorrow morning?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So what starting to take shape in New York, it seems like the prosecution is trying to put forth as many facts as they can that are indisputable, that can really set the stage for when Michael Cohen ultimately testifies, because, as we know, he has issues involving who he is, the fact that he's been convicted of lying, he has a perjury conviction, and he has changed his tune, right? So I think it's going to be what they're really trying to do is put as many witnesses to set them straight right now so that when Michael Cohen testifies, the facts are not in dispute.

BLITZER: Ron, Maggie Haberman, our friend and colleague of the New York Times, has a new story up around this trial, and she writes this. Let me put it up on the screen. The question of what is true, or at least what can be proven, is at the heart of any trial. But this particular defendant has spent five decades spewing thousands and thousands of words, sometimes contradicting himself within minutes, sometimes within the same breath, with little concern for the consequences of what he said. What are your thoughts on that?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I mean, you know, I feel like all the legal proceedings that we've seen with Trump, the defamation case with E. Jean Carroll, the civil -- the fraud case from the New York attorney general, just underscores the difference between his potential vulnerability in the legal world and in the political world. I mean, in the political world, you know, there is -- there, in his electorate, there is essentially no consequence for lying.

In the legal world, there can be, you know, there obviously is kind of a fog of misinformation that surrounds him that will make it more difficult in any case. But ultimately, there are consequences. And by the way, that's why, you know, if you ask me, one of the most important thing that happened last week in Trump's legal, it really was this incredible spectacle of five Republican appointed justices on the Supreme Court giving every indication that they will protect him from going to trial before the election on the case that American voters have made clear is the most serious in their eyes.

You know, the argument -- the allegations that he tried to overturn the 2020 election. So, you know, we have multiple, as always with Trump, there are multiple things going on at the same time. But I do think that his tendency to change his tune, to mislead, to flat out lie, ultimately is more of a liability in the legal context than in the political context.

BLITZER: And Karen, while all of this is going on, we're still waiting for Judge Juan Merchan's ruling on whether Trump violated his gag order. And we will know there will be another hearing this Thursday over more potential violations. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What have you thought of David Pecker's testimony so far? When was the last time you spoke to him?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, he's been very nice. I mean, he's been, David's been very nice. Nice guy.

That jury was picked so fast, 95 percent Democrats. The area is mostly all Democrat. You think of it as just a purely Democrat area. It's a very unfair situation that I can tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What did you think of David Pecker's testimony, at least so far, and when was the last time you had a chance to actually speak to him?

AGNIFILO: David Pecker?

BLITZER: You never spoke to him?

AGNIFILO: I've never spoken to him.

BLITZER: All right. Well, that was my mistake. Sorry. But let me get your reaction to what was just said by Trump.

AGNIFILO: Yes. So essentially the thing about David Pecker and really why he was so important was he really is the linchpin. I think the key to proving that this is all about the election and not about Melania Trump and not about hiding information for personal reasons because they're embarrassing. And I think that was what was so critical about what his testimony was. What Trump has been doing, however, is he's been violating the gag order multiple times, including what you just about saying, oh, he's a nice guy.

And what the prosecution has said is that that is a message to other witnesses to be nice and to potentially intimidate them. So they're going to have another hearing this Thursday on the gag order to essentially build more of a record of these violations.

[11:29:55]

But the judge has yet to rule on the gag order violations, both the hearing that we've already had and these continuing violations. So it'll be interesting to see when the judge chooses to determine whether or not he is in violation.