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CNN International: Protesters Return To Street Outside Columbia University; Pro-Israel Protesters Breach UCLA Encampment; Florida's 6- Week Abortion Ban Goes Into Effect; House To Vote On Antisemitism Bill Amid Campus Protests; Secretary Blinken: There Is "Real, Meaningful Progress" On Humanitarian Aid To Gaza. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 01, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:35]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Rafah, 12:00 p.m. in Los Angeles, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

And let's get right to the news.

Several colleges across America continue to grapple with anti-war protests following another dramatic 24 hours on campus. In New York, students and faculty have now returned to the streets outside Columbia University after police remove protesters from Hamilton Hall on campus and dismantled the encampment here overnight. Columbia will hold all final exams online now, and police will remain on campus until after graduation.

In California, UCLA has canceled classes after protesters and counter protesters clashed overnight. Video shows pro-Israeli protesters tried to remove the barricades around the encampment, sending off fireworks pointing lasers using pepper spray. Police, eventually arrived on the scene moving between the dueling protests.

Polo Sandoval, he's at Columbia University, Josh Campbell is in Los Angeles at UCLA.

Polo, let me go to you first protesters removed overnight by police at least some of them have returned with what end in mind?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you know, Jim, it was just 24 hours ago, I was observing one of those occupiers on top of Hamilton Hall, the building that you see behind me waving a Palestinian flag. Here we are today. There is now a relative calm, not only on campus, but off as well.

Yes. To your point, there were some protests and demonstrations, but that's in the area around Columbia. So that means for the first time in some two weeks now, any member of the Columbia University community who wishes to participate in any sort of demonstration. They now have to do it on those sidewalks around the campus. That is because of that restricting access that was put in place after that occupation on Monday night, which means that only the students who reside on campus and those deemed as essential a personnel are allowed on campus.

The president of the university, Minouche Shafik, out with the letter that she sent to the NYPD saying that she did that with the campus was describe it on the brink, which is why we saw essentially a repeat of what took place almost two weeks ago when she turned to the NYPD for assistance and clearing out that in cabinet, which would, of course, subsequently only pop up again. And that eventually led to the occupation.

Today, the NYPD and also New York City Mayor Eric Adams, Jim, he said that there was certainly a factor among those arrests, the -- as he described it, outside agitators. According to the NYPD, they influence some of those demonstrators as well.

Meanwhile, there is certainly some criticism that is building against the NYPD for his handling and also against a university who's called for a police presence for the next several weeks on campus.

SCIUTTO: Polo, thank you.

I'm going to go to Josh now on the other side of the country in L.A., at UCLA. So overnight, we saw quite violent clashes among protesters, pro Israeli protesters, trying to remove a barricade set up by pro- Palestinians. Josh, can you -- I know you've spoken to folks who witnessed that firsthand. Who do they say exactly escalated the violence there?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they're alleging is that these were pro-Israeli groups who were coming, essentially counter demonstrators and attacking this encampment. You could see as they walk here, they're essentially trying to repair and rebuild. They had a lot of barriers out here, plywood and the like when this group came, we saw a video of them trying to pull down the barriers.

They were setting off fireworks towards this camp. There were clashes. We can see on video chemical irritants sprayed and so certainly an escalation between these two groups here. And one interesting thing, Jim, is that we didn't see a massive law enforcement presence last night. In fact, "The Daily Bruin", the newspaper here at UCLA, said that nearly two hours went by before you actually saw a large amount of authorities come in.

That's different right now, as we pan over, you can see over here in the wings there are law enforcement officers that are staged. This is only a small, small percentage of the officers who are currently stage in this building next to us, there are dozens and dozens of patrol cars have been brought here, multiple agencies providing resources here in the L.A. area.

Again, the question that a lot of them have, would we see a repeat tonight, similar to what we saw last night, something that there certainly hoping does not happen.

[15:05:07] And then finally sort of pointing out, Jim, that for law enforcement, this obviously a very precarious for them to be in as well. A lot of these pro-Palestinian demonstrators across the country have been essentially ridiculing the police for being near these encampments, telling the police to go away. Of course, when violent strikes, they call the police.

And so, the police are trying to walk that fine line between not having a very heavy-handed presence here, but also being on standby in case public safety is threatened, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. Curious to see where this ends and how soon.

Polo Sandoval, Josh Campbell, thanks so much for both of you.

Well, pro-Palestinian protesters at the University of Wisconsin- Madison have now re-established their encampment after police arrested dozens of students there, you can see in these pictures, just this morning. The campus's only Palestinian American professor was injured seen here, pinned to the ground by officers, bleeding from his head.

Mia Kurzer is a student at the University of Wisconsin and she joins us down.

Mia, good to have you.

MIA KURZER, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN STUDENT AT THE PROTESTS: Hi. Good -- it's good to have the representation on mainstream media of all of this. So great that you're doing this. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, let me ask you. You call yourself a d escalator in these protests here. I wonder when you see the police coming in as you saw this morning and we've seen some injuries as a result, are they helping or hurting this situation?

KURZER: Definitely hurting. We were -- we were chilling out. We were all -- we were not blocking anything. We were not doing anything to antagonize any counter-protests. I don't even make their work on her protests at that point because it was I believe at 7:00 a.m. that this started and we were all sitting down like doing nothing and the police came in and they just started going at us and like knocking people down, like knocking tents down, detaining people, pushing them to the ground.

And there was no reason to do all of that. There was no like violence between the people. Nobody called the police. It was unnecessary and it just hurt the situation.

But we rebuilt. So --

SCIUTTO: Well, let me ask you this because as, you know, throughout these protests, there has been a lot of labeling anti-Israel pro- Palestinian, some accused of antisemitism.

You're a Jewish student. You have said these protests are not antisemitic, but are in fact peace versus does violence. Can you explain why? And also explain the makeup of the protesters there?

Because again, there's been a tendency to label or group all protesters into one camp as it were.

KURZER: Yeah, I would say our side like -- the side that is anti- Israel is just all we want is the genocide happening to the Palestinians to stop and the other side just wants to keep doing it, and there seems to be no end.

And I would say that the makeup I know. So many Jewish students that are have been protesting for the past three days. I'm Jewish. I know there's like -- we've got people of like, almost every nationality here. It's not Jewish versus Muslim. It's we want to stop the genocide versus we want the genocide to keep going, I would say.

SCIUTTO: Tell us what you're doing to de-escalate in the midst of all this.

KURZER: Well, we've got some people who just come and antagonize. They take up close up pictures of people's faces. And we just put ourselves -- like the yellow vest, we put ourselves in-between and we just tried to calm people down and it usually just people just get so annoyed with us. They just leave. So, works so far.

SCIUTTO: And just clear that they take pictures, why? Because are they threatening to dox these people, identify them, publicized because their identities?

KURZER: I've heard a lot of like what people have said I'm not a real Jew because I'm doing this blah, blah, blah, and like people are just, they say like everything you're doing is illegal. Like I'm taking evidence, it's like a public place.

It is a public place, but were just asking people to like have kind manners and there is like, I believe it's like the canary or something that does dox Palestinian, people who are pro-Palestine.

[15:10:06]

So I think a lot of our students are just not afraid that they're doing anything wrong because they're not. But we -- it's just not productive. And we don't know what they're doing with those photos. We don't know what they'll do and it's just very like -- it seems like they're trying to start a fight.

SCIUTTO: What do you say when people accuse you of not being a real Jew for participating in these protests?

KURZER: I kind of like Jews are like anything -- like there's so many different types of being Jewish, that we can disagree and it's okay, it's okay to disagree. I understand where a lot of like, I grew up in Hebrew school, I had a bat mitzvah. I understand why a lot of them think the way they do.

But where it crosses the line for me is when they start going and in tag -- like there's been pro Israel people who are on the edge and they're just chilling out. It is Passover. So they're handing out matzah, handing out candies. That's totally fine like that. They're just expressing their freedom.

But I don't think it's very -- like because Jews are a community and we should be a community and we should support each other even when we disagree. So, it's just sad to see people be so in their belief that they can handle anything that disagrees with that.

SCIUTTO: Well, we see a lot of that in this country these days.

Well, Mia Kurzer, please take care of yourself in the midst of all this and we appreciate your joining.

KURZER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, Jewish students across the country, including at UCLA, have reported in some circumstances, not feeling safe on campus during these protests.

Joining us now is Dan Gold, executive director of Hillel at UCLA.

Dan, thanks so much for joining as well.

DAN GOLD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AT HILLEL AT UCLA: Yeah, thanks for having me, Jim.

SCIUTTO: First, I want to get your response to what Mia Kurzer from the University of Wisconsin at Madison was saying there, that these are not in her words, Jewish versus Muslim protests. It's peace versus violence. It's folks sometimes are the same faith who have very different views of this war.

GOLD: Certainly appreciate the diverse opinions that we have on any campus. Of course, across the country here at UCLA and speaking about our experience on our campus, what I can say is that the encampment protest is one of the main ways that are Jewish students currently feel unsafe because it represents the ways that our university is not upholding the policies that they have instituted to make a campus a safe and welcoming environment for everybody, and to build a quality and equity for all student groups.

You know, Jim, when our -- when Jewish students wanted to have a vigil to commemorate the 1,200 Israelis that were slaughtered on October 7th and over 200 that were taken hostage, they were told they couldn't use real candles. We had to use plastic electronic candles because that was the fire marshals rules. We were told our vigil be shut down. Every student group agrees to follow policies and rules to ensure that everybody feels safe, and everybody feels welcome and every can walk freely on their campus.

And this encampment does the exact opposite of that and that is why our students feel so unsafe. Not to mention the many forms of antisemitic slurs, imagery signage, in ways that we've been seeing messages directed directly our Jewish students, but also just in general on our campus, coming from the encampment. SCIUTTO: I -- CNN has reported instances like that as well. But when we look to events last night on the campus, when according to witnesses, you had pro-Israeli protesters going through two dismantle that encampment and there were accounts of throwing fireworks and so on, what's Hillel's position on what transpired last night?

GOLD: Our Hillel UCLA and myself and our Jewish student leaders condemn in every term possible violence on our campus of all forms, and I'll make that clear. We condemn every form of violence and aggression and we also ask every group and every agitator that's coming from outside of our campus to leave the campus, and let our students study live and be safe this is a place for students to learn, and to explore who they are and what they want to do on the world.

And all outside agitators are making that more difficult.

SCIUTTO: I've heard that phrase a lot. The New York mayor used it a short time ago, in part to justify that police response on Columbia's campus. At UCLA, are the principal instigators of trouble -- are the non-peaceful protesters outside agitators?

[15:15:07]

I mean, who makes up the bulk of the folks protesting on UCLA campus right now?

GOLD: Thanks for asking that, Jim. Of course, I don't know the identity of everybody that's been there. Certainly not last night what I do know is no students, no Jewish students that we work with, that we know, that we hear of are in any way behind any of the violent or aggressive counter-protests. In fact, they haven't been behind any of the counter-protests near the encampment in the last week.

Our Jewish students, as I said before, are looking to their campus leadership to create a safe and welcoming environment and to do everything they can to protect from antisemitism.

So whoever these folks are, we don't know. We know they're not Jewish students. And we're asking them whether they're supportive members of the Jewish community, and we do appreciate the support in terms of in Jewish on campus or whether they're inside the encampment, and maybe encouraging the more aggressive and extreme approaches of the encampment, we're asking them to leave the campus.

SCIUTTO: Dan, before we go, I wonder what you think of how police have responded on UCLA's campus because you heard me speaking to someone from the University of Wisconsin who said police intervention was actually made things worse, not better. And I've heard similar from Columbia students.

What's your sense of how police have responded at UCLA?

GOLD: As I mentioned before, our Jewish community is looking to our UCLA administration to uphold all the policies and rules of the campus that they create to keep everybody safe. We also know that this encampment, one of their demands, if you want to call them demands, has been to create a police free environment on the campus. That's the demand they wrote and that we've heard them.

And so, we understand some of the dynamics of how policing makes people feel uncomfortable. And we understand that's one of the challenges that leadership grapples with. It also creates a sense of unease and chaos when there is no way to enforce the policies that the university rights and makes to make all of our students feel safe and welcome.

SCIUTTO: Dan Gold, hope you see a more peaceful campus in the coming days. Thanks so much for joining.

GOLD: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, Florida's six-week abortion ban goes into effect today. It's one of the most restrictive laws in the U.S. We're going to details and reactions coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:49]

SCIUTTO: Beginning today, women in the state of Florida will no longer be able to obtain an abortion after six weeks of pregnancy, a point to be clear at which many women do not yet know they're pregnant. The law taking effect today not only makes Florida home to one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country, but also cuts off a key access point for women seeking the procedure across the American South.

Marking the moment, Vice President Kamala Harris traveled to Jacksonville, Florida today to rally for abortion rights in a state that Democrats, at least hope to make competitive in November and -- and this is crucial -- where voters will most likely have a chance to overturn the six weeks ban on a ballot measure this fall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Across our nation, we witness a full-on assault state by state on reproductive freedom, and understand who is to blame. Former President Donald Trump did this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He said so himself.

Well, with me for more on all this is CNN's Meg Tirrell. She's in Jacksonville.

So, Meg, explain -- some would say this is a geographical question, right? Because with this ban in Florida, Florida had been something of an island in the south. Now it's got a six-week ban, so it impacts people not just there, but elsewhere in the region.

Tell us how. MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jim. Florida has really been seen as kind of an outlier in the South because it did have more abortion access. And so for that reason, this change to a six-week ban from a 15-week limit is really seen as a seismic shift in abortion access in this region.

You know, last year one of 12 abortions done nationwide were obtained in Florida and one of three abortions done in the South were in this state. That's about 7,000 people who obtained abortions in Florida per month in 2023. And a lot of people, Jim, have had to cross state lines in order to get abortions and they come to Florida because it's the closest state from other states that have a lot of restrictions, you know, upwards of 8,000, approaching 9,000 according to estimates from the Guttmacher Institute last year.

Now, what we hear from experts is that folks are going to have to travel a lot farther up to North Carolina where there's a 12-week ban, but there's also a long waiting period there. So it's difficult to orchestrate that. They may have to go even further north to Virginia for example.

We talked to the patient here, Jim, at the clinic yesterday, who was here getting get abortion in the hours before the ban went into effect. Here's what she told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDACE, PATIENT: You know, I feel relieved I'm able to get in and I feel lucky that, you know, right now, I do have a voice and I have right over my own body. But waking up tomorrow is devastating, knowing that my daughter and myself are waking up tomorrow with less rights than we do today. It's devastating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TIRRELL: That patient's name is Candace. She wanted to be identified only by her first name and not to show her face for privacy reasons, she already has two children, including a daughter she said -- she was worried about.

Jim, now, all eyes really in Florida are going to be turning to November where there is a ballot initiative where voters can vote about abortion access here in the state. That is expected course to be heated battle.

Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, a lot of talk among Democrats at least about that driving, turnout to their advantage in the election in November there. Meg Tirrell, in Jacksonville, thanks so much.

So to Capitol Hill now where lawmakers are expected to vote today on a bill seeking to crack down on antisemitism on college campuses by defining it. Though the bill is bipartisan, many Democrats are voicing loud opposition, claiming the definition of antisemitism is too expansive, and therefore threatens free speech. This all comes before the backdrop of those widespread pro-Palestinian

protests across many universities in the country.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty.

So, tell us what you're hearing ahead of today's vote. Is it likely to pass? And can you explain exactly what the definition is?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. There's really some interesting movement up here on Capitol Hill, Jim, in the sense that a lot of -- a lot of people here on the Hill are healing rumblings that they may not put this bill forward.

We just heard from House Republican leaderships team, their sources telling CNN's Melanie Zanona that their concerned about putting this on the floor.

[15:25:06]

So that will be interesting going forward. The other story up here on Capitol Hill, of course, is a Marjorie Taylor Greene's motion to vacate. She had been pushing towards having this vote, and she announced this morning she's having it at some point next week, the motion to vacate to oust Speaker Johnson of his jobs. So that certainly will be something interesting watch next week as well -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Sunlen Serfaty, thanks so much.

So, let's speak now to our political panel. Shelby Talcott of "Semafor", Sophia Cai of "Axios".

Good to have you both on.

Lot to discuss today with the campus protests, the new abortion law and also this -- well, probably loser of a petition by MTG to remove the speaker. But let's begin on abortion if we can, because this is quite a restrictive law in a place that, you know, until a few years ago was quite a purple state, although its certainly moved more red.

You have Vice President Kamala Harris down in Florida today. That is deliberate.

Tell us how central these laws are to Democrats' hopes in November.

SHELBY TALCOTT, POLITICAL REPORTER, SEMAFOR: They're key. And I do want to note during the vice presidents speech, she consistently not only talked about the Florida restrictions and restrictions across the country, but she tried to tie it directly to Donald Trump.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

TALCOTT: And that's intentional. The Biden campaign doesn't just want voters to go to the polls in November, thinking about abortion, but they want voters at the polls thinking about abortion and how Donald Trump has played a role in it. And they've seen historically over the past few years how abortion has

been a winning issue for them. So when I talk to the Biden campaign, they see no reason that this election is going to be any different.

SCIUTTO: Sophia, we know that Trump himself is nervous about this issue. He's called it a loser. He's tried now to basically say, well, it's just a states rights issue. It's not really our problem and states can decide what they want.

I mean, women in those states are going to notice that, right? In some of these laws are extremely restrictive when you speak to Republicans. Did they believe the states rights explanation is going to insulate them from this issue?

SOPHIA CAI, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: I think a lot of them are toeing the line and kind of repeating what from says, because after all, he's leading their party.

But privately, a lot of them are holding prep calls, like prep calls with their comms team in order to talk about how to respond when it comes to abortion.

So they know its really tricky issue. And if they get it wrong, it could cost them their own race or the larger race in November for Trump. I think for the Trump team, they came out earlier and said that look, this is all about the states. I'm sure they did polling before that.

But I think they were hooping by coming out with that statement, they would take abortion, which is a winning issue for Democrats off the table when in fact, you know, we have repeatedly we saw in Arizona, we're seeing in Florida, these state bans, they keep coming up and giving Democrats an opportunity to abortion back into the spotlight as an issue that people are concerned about.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, I mean, Arizona, but belied Trumps explanation because he said its a states rights issue. And then here you have a state has this civil war along its like, well, not that state, not that states decision, although it looks like they may reverse it.

Okay. Let's talk about the protests because the GOP is clearly trying to capitalize on this bill today defining antisemitism. Johnson go into Columbia last week.

Is there evidence that this messaging works with voters? In other words, that voters are placing this at the feet of Biden.

TALCOTT: I think at works insofar as what Republicans are trying to do is tie the protests into the broader sort of chaos argument. So they're not just bringing up the protests, they're bringing up the Afghanistan withdrawal, the Ukraine war, the Israeli war, and they're using all of that together to argue that the president is not good on foreign policy issues.

And we've seen evidence that that does work at the same time, the Biden campaign is not convinced that these protests are really going to make a difference. They've argued that overall, the amount of people protesting is a very small number. But we learned earlier today that Biden is going to be speaking on May 7th at the U.S. Holocaust Museum and so that sort of indicates that maybe they do, maybe they are starting to think that this is an issue they need to take.

SCIUTTO: I thought exactly the same thing when I saw that go into the calendar.

Sophia, I wonder, and maybe this is just me and I'm a parent, although my kids aren't in college yet. When I see cops wrestling young people to the ground, face first into the pavement, that makes me uncomfortable, too.

I just wonder is that is there concern on the Republican side that baton wielding police on college campuses is not a winning issue, right? And by the way, it's happening in red states and blue states. We saw in Texas, we saw police moving into Columbia's campus last night in New York.

[15:30:08]

CAI: I think Republicans are very much on the side of law enforcement.

They want to paint Trump as the law and order president, it seems to be working and they see the protesters as extremely radical. I mean, former President Trump called into Hannity last night and started, you know, with no evidence talking about how the radical protesters were paid. It was coordinated.

I mean, there really is an effort to drive a wedge between law enforcement and simply the act of clearing out campuses and the left. And I think the Biden White House realizes this, in which is why you don't see President Biden coming out to say anything directly because if he takes decide of the protesters will then he's alienating centrists and some of the undecideds, whereas if he condemns the protesters and he alienates like 20 percent of voters who are under 35. I mean, that's -- that's a lose-lose situation. So we haven't seen him take that gamble.

SCIUTTO: Ii get that argument though, but I wonder if the issue with Biden among some voters is age and disconnect does not showing up. Shelby does not showing up. Hold its own risks, right, to feed into that concern.

TALCOTT: Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason that he is going to give this speech. And we've seen Republicans argue that Biden silence and yes, the White House has come out consistently and talked about this issue and have issued statements but it's on the president's behalf.

SCIUTTO: Right.

TALCOTT: And so there has been a distinction between the president himself addressing this versus his, his aides and so I do think that there is that risk that if he doesn't start talking about it, that Republicans can make the argument that he is skirting the issue. SCIUTTO: Right. Shelby Talcott, Sophia Cai, thanks so much to both of you.

Still to come, the major legal development involving former movie producer Harvey Weinstein. That's coming.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:37]

SCIUTTO: Today prosecutors for the Manhattan district attorney said they will retry Harvey Weinstein's case in New York City. This after a New York appeals court overturned the Hollywood producer's sex crimes conviction last week.

Weinstein was convicted, you may remember in 2020, of first-degree criminal sexual act, assault and third-degree rape. He was sentenced to 23 years in prison.

Elizabeth Wagmeister joins us now.

So, what's the next step? Whole new trial here, and how long does that take?

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, it will be an entirely new trial, a new judge, a new jury, obviously, but based on much of the same evidence, at least the same charges. Now, why this was overturned, Jim, what's really sent shockwaves through Hollywood and through communities of sexual tool assault survivors is really based on a legal technicality.

The court of appeals, which is the highest court in the state of New York, said that the judge allowed too much evidence in. They allowed these women who were not directly tied to the charges to help prove a pattern of Weinstein's alleged behavior, though those victims will not be allowed into the courtroom, but the others who are tied to these charges will, in fact, this morning in court during this hearing, Jim, one of the star witnesses, her name is Jessica Mann. She was in the courtroom and the assistant da said in the courtroom that she was there to show that she is not backing down and she is going to continue with this.

So there is no trial date set yet, but it could be as soon as September.

SCIUTTO: All right. We'll be watching.

Elizabeth Wagmeister, thanks so much.

And still to come, we will check in on the status of badly needed humanitarian aid to Gaza. Is it getting in? We'll check in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:32]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Israel today for crucial meetings on a potential ceasefire and hostage release deal. While there, he visited Kerem Shalom, a key border crossing for aid to enter Gaza. Blinken said there's been, quote, real, meaningful progress on getting humanitarian aid in, but you said that progress must be sustained.

Yesterday, more than 300 aid trucks entered Gaza according to Israeli authorities, but a new report is shedding light on the devastation there, finding in Rafah that, quote, the necessary conditions for survival are absent, striking words.

Joining me now to discuss is the CARE country director for the West Bank in Gaza, Hiba Tibi.

Thanks so much for joining.

HIBA TIBI, CARE WEST BANK AND GAZA COUNTRY DIRECTOR: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: So we know you're monitoring aid flows very closely. The U.N. said that there has been a higher flow of aid going in, in April than there was in March, 35 CARE trucks have entered as well. Are you finding at least that more aid is getting in and is it close to sufficient for what is needed there?

TIBI: So more aid is getting in, but it's not in any way close to be sufficient. Unfortunately, over -- no one expected that this war will last for seven months. So you can imagine that it is accumulating needs over needs and if even, for instance, in April or may hope fully in May, there will be more aid entering. The number is -- should be as high as possible to correspond to the needs that are at various level, and to also to need to meet the needs of people in the south and most importantly, in the north.

And, of course, what would make it very much, much better with sustained impact? Would be to have an enabling environment for us to reach specifically those who are most vulnerable.

SCIUTTO: A new report from Medecins Sans Frontieres, Doctors Without Borders, use that phrase, I just said, necessary conditions for survival are absent. This relating specifically to healthcare system there.

Can you explain what that means to people at home right now?

TIBI: So as you know, the health system is connected to different components. This includes, for instance, hygiene practices, good nutrition, whether related diseases, all of the conditions that are currently in Gaza are considered according to some of the specialists the perfect combination for death if unfortunately more sustained aid and restoration of that basic requirements services including hospitals, fuel for running desalination, a units for water would be very important. Without that, the situation will become even more and more worse. And especially if we are thinking of potential Rafah offensive that everyone is talking about.

SCIUTTO: Who do you blame for the lack of aid?

TIBI: So, unfortunately, what we wish for is that the international humanitarian law is respected by all of the actors everywhere. And this will be if the humanitarian law is not respected, then unfortunately, those who are not respecting it would be the ones to bear the basic -- the biggest responsibility when it comes to saving the lives that we are losing on daily basis.

SCIUTTO: I know that U.S. officials have been pushing Israel to allow more aid in. But do you believe that Hamas bears some responsibility as well? They've been frequent reports of Hamas stealing some of the aid are redirecting fuel for their own uses.

TIBI: So, unfortunately, we hear this news, but no one can guarantee or can give confirmation on this is happening on the ground. In all cases, what is entering is very limited. And if there are any diversion of aid entering to Gaza, it would make it even worse and worse, and this is what we hope that it is not happening.

Confirmation on the information I cannot give it. But for instance, I can share with you what happens with CARE. All our aid trucks are entering we don't store them. We immediately distribute them, so we did not face anything any incidents that I can report back.

SCIUTTO: Interesting -- that's an interesting strategy.

As you know, after the IDF killed seven members of a World Central Kitchen team, World Central Kitchen has now resumed their operations but the IDF after that killing that it would increase safety for aid workers, increased new protections, introduced new protections.

[15:45:10]

Have there been any changes since that strike that you've seen?

TIBI: So unfortunately, we have heard of another aid worker in another organization, international humanitarian organization that was lost after the World Central Kitchen.

We try our best as organizations to coordinate, to deconflict, to share the coordinates of what we are doing, where we are heading. There are lots of commitments that are coming from the government that Israeli government, and we hope that the -- that this would be translated on the ground.

So far it is -- it is commitment. These are commitments, but we wish that they are translated.

SCIUTTO: You mentioned earlier the Rafah operation and Israel says that if it does proceed with us and by the way, it says it will proceed. It will take measures to protect civilians there. Do you believe that and you believe that it can take measures to protect civilians if it decides to go into a densely populated area?

TIBI: So I think based on what we have seen in with the beginning of the war, and then later on within that evacuations that occurred in Khan Younis, no matter the measures that are, if it worked and unfortunately, it did not work previously, the number of people, the density of population inside the south is massive.

Any intervention, if it, if military actions would affect in other locations surrounding communities, then you can imagine what will happen with people staying standing, take -- seeking shelter in the streets and estimation by the U.N. agencies said today or two days ago was released actually that evacuation of people in Rafah would require ten days for 1.5 million and we will not -- we don't expect that we will be given as a community actors ten days to evacuate before it happens unfortunately.

SCIUTTO: Well, we appreciate the work you're doing in Gaza. Hiba Tibi, thanks so much for joining us.

TIBI: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: When we come back, new details about how pro-Russian hackers carried out cyber attacks on multiple water plants here in the U.S. Broader threats to U.S. critical infrastructure. That's coming up.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

We are learning new details about how pro-Russian hackers were able to breach U.S. water plants in a string of recent cyber attacks.

[15:50:08]

U.S. officials found that hackers exploited weak security practices such as outdated equipment and hear this a lot, weak passwords, making it relatively easy for hackers to breach the sensitive networks that handle water treatment, as well as other crucial industrial operations. We should note these hacks did not impact any drinking water, but they still speak to the broader threat.

Joining me now to discuss how this happened, Dmitri Alperovitch. He is the co-founder of the cybersecurity company CrowdStrike. He's also the author of a new book, "World on the Brink: How America Can Beat China in the Race for the 21st Century".

Good to have you on.

DMITRI ALPEROVITCH, AUTHOR: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: First on the cyber attacks because this fits into the broader picture of the standoff, not just between the U.S. and Russia, but certainly the U.S. and China. How do attacks like this still happen? And what does it show us about

how cyber weapons already threatened crucial infrastructure in this country, not just water treatment, but power -- power grids, et cetera.

ALPEROVITCH: Well, the reality is that our critical infrastructure is very vulnerable. First of all, no network is perfectly secure, and against the dedicated enemy, particularly this is GRU, Russian military intelligence, it's going to be difficult for anyone to defeat them and block these attacks.

But here, you're talking about small town utilities that don't even have security teams, right? Barely may have an IT person on staff of, course, they have weak passwords. Of course, they have outdated infrastructure, but it's important to note that only damage that was caused here was that some of these facilities were flown and some of the drinking water was lost. But there's no impact to health.

SCIUTTO: Understood, it always amazes me how often -- weak passwords are the weak link in this, kind of --

ALPEROVITCH: Almost always.

SCIUTTO: Haven't learned.

Yeah, turning to your book now, because when we speak about the broader stand-up, particularly between the U.S. and China, you had a key meeting between Blinken and Xi Jinping last week, which is part of a series of meeting showing something of a thaw in the relationship. I wonder, is this a short-term thaw in your view, based on economic weakness, for instance, in China today? Or is it indicative of possibly a long-term, more positive trend?

ALPEROVITCH: I think it'd began last summer, accelerated last fall with a meeting between Xi and Biden. But I think its almost coming to an end now.

In fact, this meeting with Blinken was very frosty and in fact, there was an amazing video that the Chinese put out, of Xi waiting for Blinken to command. And in mandarin telling his protocol officer, when is he leaving, right? So that's a pretty --

SCIUTTO: That's deliberate when that happened.

ALPEROVITCH: Very deliberate.

And the reality is that the Chinese were hoping that American investment, Western investment would come back into China the last 20 percent of foreign direct investment year over year this year, and it's not coming back and they're starting to appreciate that and they're starting to ask the question, why do we want to invest in that relationship?

SCIUTTO: Why do we bother?

Do -- I mean, you say in your book, the China is weaker than we think, and that the U.S. is stronger than we think. Explain how and how you suggest then the U.S. should take advantage of that?

ALPEROVITCH: Look, sometimes we look at our division, our situation on campuses, or the politics and we say, oh, my God, we're so weak, but the reality is, this is still the strongest economy in the world, 25 percent bigger GDP than China's, the strongest military, the strongest alliances.

And China is none of that. In fact, China's economy is stagnating. You have 15 percent youth unemployment, an enormous property bubble. They're contained by U.S. allies in the Indo-Pacific.

They are very weak, but I do worry a great deal in this is what the book is about, that they may want to try to invade Taiwan in the next four to eight years, and that could change the entire trajectory of the 21st century.

SCIUTTO: Because they sense their window closing. Is that part of it?

ALPEROVITCH: Absolutely. They sense their window closing, but also because that can help change their fortunes because if they take Taiwan, they can dominate in Asia, if they can dominate Asia, where you have 50 percent of the world's GDP, that can lead to much more influence around the world.

SCIUTTO: You begin the book with a war game in effect of what that conflict would look like. In brief terms, how bad would it be?

ALPEROVITCH: It would be disastrous. The level of casualties we would face fighting China, should we choose to fight them, could eclipse on a daily basis what we saw in World War II. Just think about that.

This is going to be devastating, not just in lives and infrastructure, but also to the world economy. We could lose ten dollars trillion, trillion with a T, over the course of a year, the first year of a conflict. So, this -- the stakes couldn't be higher.

SCIUTTO: President Biden, as you know, has said, not once, but four times that the U.S. would defend Taiwan militarily. Do you believe him? And crucially, does Beijing believe and does Taiwan believe it?

ALPEROVITCH: I think Beijing has no choice to believe them because they can't miscalculate here. I think he wants to defend Taiwan, but when faced with the consequences of what a fight with China would look like, and the casualties, it's a tough decision for anyone. I mean, at best it's a 50-50 scenario.

But I think it's a deliberate strategy on his part, to not change our policy ambiguity because we don't commit to the defense in Taiwan. But when the president says it four times, even if the whites -- White House staff wants it back, its still a signal to Beijing and the broader region.

SCIUTTO: That is President Biden, though we do have an election in this country in November and President Trump is not a president who has been -- who's expressed a lot of confidence in or commitment to U.S. defense agreements, whether formal or informal. [15:55:10]

Would that pledge disappear if someone else -- if Trump was in the White House post-November?

ALPEROVITCH: Well, it's not a legal pledge, of course. Of course, a new president would decide on their own. But we have to appreciate that President Trump did have a pretty hawkish team around him on China the first time around. We don't know who he is going to the pick should he win next time around, but it absolutely would be concerned to the Taiwanese. When I was there just last fall, this was a question that everyone was asking.

SCIUTTO: No question. I found the same when I visited.

Dmitri Alperovitch, the book is "World on the Brink: How America can Beat China in the Race for the 21st Century" -- good to have you on.

ALPEROVITCH: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much for joining me today.

And thanks so much for all of you for joining me today as well. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.