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CNN Live Event/Special

CNN INTERNATIONAL: US President Reacts to Protests on US College Campuses; Police Say They've Cleared Protesters from Portland State Library; Now: Sixth Day of Testimony in Trump Hush Money Trial; Media Challenges Covering Protests, Police Crackdowns; U.S. President Reacts to Protests on U.S. College Campuses; Sixth Day of Testimony Wraps in Trump Hugh Money Trial; Colombia to Break Diplomatic Ties with Israel Over Gaza. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:33]

ISA SOARES, CNN HOST: And a very warm welcome to our special coverage on CNN. I'm Isa Soares in London. We are following two major stories this hour.

Firstly, protests disrupt college campuses across America for another day. Now, President Biden is weighing in, as well as urging calm.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: And I'm Erica Hill in New York, outside the courthouse where Donald Trump's criminal trial is underway for Day 10. Donald Trump jump back in court where a new witness took the stand just a short time ago. I'll bring you the very latest in a few minutes, but first, Isa back over to you with the latest on those campus protests.

SOARES: Thanks very much, Erica.

Well, a tough balance between free speech alongside law and order. For the first time since the start of the nationwide protests we've seen over the war in Gaza, US President Joe Biden addressed the unrest on college campuses. Have a listen to this short clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This isn't a moment for politics, it is a moment for clarity, so let me be clear, peaceful protest in America, violent protest is not protected, peaceful protest is. It is against the law when violence occurs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: And we are tracking campus protests from coast-to-coast, including the dramatic scenes, of course, that we've seen that UCLA after police arrested over a hundred protesters overnight. We will have more from there in just a moment.

We are also following developments at Portland State University in Oregon. The police department says, officers have cleared the school's library, which had been occupied by protesters since Monday.

And context here, since mid-April, more than 2,000 people have been arrested on campuses across the United States, and the map there on your screen just gives you a sense of how sprawling these have been.

We are now joined by Liam Schmitt, who is a student journalist at Portland State University.

Liam, I appreciate you being with us. I wonder if you can bring us up- to-date in terms what more you can tell us about this standoff that we've seen between police officers and protesters.

LIAM SCHMITT, STUDENT JOURNALIST, PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY: As far as I know, I just came from the protests and it seems like the standoff is still ongoing.

It has been a hectic morning, the police showed up around 6:15 today and I've been escorting people out of the library all day. It seems like everyone is at the library by now, and people have been pushing back against the police and the police have been pushing back as well.

SOARES: And what we are hearing, Liam, just in the last few minutes, in fact, you are right that what we are hearing from our reporting is that the police has worked to clear the library at the university and a total of 12 people were arrested, only four there from what we understand, Liam, were students. What do we know about the other eight? Are you hearing anything about this?

SCHMITT: Yes, I was a little surprised there were only four students, but I've been outside every night speaking to a lot of the people that were inside the library and a lot of them weren't students and just felt like they wanted to come out and support the cause that the other students were fighting for. And yes, a lot of them seemed some of them had no affiliation to PSU by any means that I was able to get from them.

Then they said they had no friends that went to PSU, but a lot of them were just people who want to come out in support the other protesters.

SOARES: So the fact that eight of them were not from the university, that does not surprise you, Liam.

SCHMITT: That doesn't surprise me. Part of me wishes that it was mostly students because I think it is important that a lot of the people protesting are students at Portland State, but I am not entirely surprised, no.

It seemed like a lot more people were showing up the bigger the story got.

SOARES: Yes, I wonder where this leaves protesters now. I mean, you say it is still -- are they still there? Are they still camped out there? Because I know the school has announced that the campus is closed, right?

SCHMITT: Yes, the campus has been closed the past few days. They actually issued a statement last night saying that the campus will be open today, but early this morning, they issued another statement saying that that is in fact closed, but no, people are, I believe no one is in the library anymore because the library is completely under control of the police, but people are pushing their way back towards the librarian.

Some people are expecting them to try to make another encampment at the library.

SOARES: So, they are going to try again to go back in. Is that what you're saying?

[16:05:07]

SCHMITT: That's what some rumors I've heard. That's what heard from certain rumors, but nothing has been confirmed. They just are pushing back against the police.

SOARES: And we will keep a close eye, of course, for any of those developments, but just speak, Liam, if you could, to the mood right now, in terms of what you seen and what you've heard in the last few days.

You're a student journalist. What has moved you the most?

SCHMITT: The tensions been really moving me lately. I've been out every night and will be out there like 4:00 AM, it will be almost a ghost town out there. All the people are inside the library, there are some of us journalists who are out there and then there are a few people near the park blocks, but it has just been a waiting game to see what the response has been.

And then today, at 6:15, the police showed up and we were entirely surprised by that because we expected something to happen throughout the night, but that never occurred. But yes, just the tensions have been very high, they are probably even higher now because the police response was more aggressive than some people wished they would have been and yes, police, and the protesters are very -- it is a very tense situation right now.

SOARES: Right. So it does seem from what you're saying, I am trying to read between the lines that the police is kind of agitated then or ratcheted up the situation, and it seems protesters are not giving in, is that right?

SCHMITT: Yes, the police have definitely agitated them and the protesters are not giving in. The police were trying to escort the people they had arrested and vans and they are trying to escort them away off campus, and they were met with pushback by the protesters, trying to block the vans.

I know at one point they were making human shields. They were trying to set up anything they could in the road to block the vans and the vans eventually went through, but yes, it has been pretty hectic.

SOARES: I bet, and look, Liam, I am not sure -- I am sure you have been across it. You heard President Biden speaking today. He said that protesters have the right of free speech, but the rule of law, as we heard from President Biden, must be upheld.

I mean, was his message heard? How was his message received? Did any of what he said resonate with the protesters?

SCHMITT: Yes, a lot of the protesters, I feel like have been very caught up in what is going on here. So I think, a lot of them haven't really responded to that statement, but there has been some people stating that they understand what Biden was saying with that because the free speech seem to be protected up until -- they had the encampment on the steps of the library for a few days before moving into the library, and there seemed to be a little police pushback in those first few days and it seemed like they were given their rights to free speech.

But once they were inside the library, it seemed like things escalated pretty quickly.

SOARES: Yes. I mean, its private property. I think that is what the police would say as well.

Liam, really, I really appreciate you bringing us up-to-date with the very latest.

Liam Schmitt there, student journalist at Portland State University. We continue to touch base with you as soon as there are any developments, I am sure you will bring us up-to-date.

Thanks, Liam.

We want now to turn the attention at UCLA where cleanup efforts are underway. The campus is calm now, but it is a stark contrast really from last night, as well as the early hours of this morning.

Police officers swarmed the pro-Palestinian protesters' encampment, dismantling barricades and deploying flashbangs to force the protesters to leave. Police there have arrested over 100 protesters.

Stephanie Elam has been following the story for us since the early hours of this morning. She joins us now from Los Angeles.

And Stephanie, it does look, it is much calmer, compared to what we saw yesterday, the dramatic scenes. A cleanup operation is underway, just speak to the mood right now.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it feels completely different than when we were out here yesterday before everything happened.

I mean, the last few days, we saw the tension ratcheting up here on UCLA's campus. I can tell you now though, there is not a protester in sight.

In fact, there are more people here cleaning up than anything else. I am going to step out so you can see, that is where those tents were. In fact, if you look, you can see the different shades of green in those square and rectangle patches, that is where you can see where the tents were for about a week, but now, they are making swift work of cleaning up the campus and putting things back.

I can see on some sides, over to my side over here, I can see that there are still some graffiti that I can see up on the building. Obviously, they are telling everyone to stay away from campus for the rest of the week here, but all of this happening at about three o'clock in the morning when law enforcement moved in after giving several warnings that this is what they were going to do.

[16:10:07]

They started doing it while the sun was still up, warning them that this was what was going to happen, that they were going to move in and clear this encampment.

The mayor of Los Angeles, Karen Bass was also on scene. She said in a statement saying that she was here as they began going into those tents and breaking them down, pulling it apart and arresting those 132 people during that. Then they had other law enforcement officials who are here, guiding those people onto buses and then taking them away.

They were prepared and they made rather efficient work of it, and then quickly thereafter began cleaning this up because by daybreak, pretty much the entire operation was done and then it was moving on to clean up here -- Isa.

SOARES: Stephanie Elam there for us in Los Angeles. Good to see you, Stephanie. Thank you very much.

And Erica, of course, we will keep across all of the protests from coast-to-coast and very dramatic and chaotic scenes that we have seen, but in the meantime, I'll hand it over to you.

HILL: Absolutely. All right, thank you. Well, just a short time ago, we finished hearing from Keith Davidson, who of course is the attorney who represented both Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels and negotiated the agreement at the center of this case.

Keith Davidson wrapped up his time on the stand a short time ago. Defense attorneys really trying to highlight the fact that based on that testimony from Davidson, Donald Trump never actually signed the deal with Stormy Daniels, and really looked to distance the former president from any interaction between Davidson in the end, Trump's then attorney/fixer, Michael Cohen.

The judge earlier today held a separate hearing on whether Donald Trump had violated again the gag order in this case and should be held in contempt. We don't know when that issue, when that ruling rather will be issued, but of course, we will stay on top of that and bring it to you as soon as we know more.

It took about a week the last time around.

CNN justice correspondent, Jessica Schneider is with us now. So just on the stand now is actually someone who works for the district attorney's office in New York and works to authenticate technology and data. Why is this witness so important? How is the prosecution bringing him in?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: He is talking about the data, Erica, that he has collected as part of this case from Michael Cohen's cellphones. He is talking about two cell phones in particular, and talking about the text messages that they were able to obtain, the contact list, but most importantly, toward the end of the day today, we've been hearing Michael Cohen's voice or we haven't been, the jury has been hearing Michael Cohen's voice for the first time.

And of course, this is a voice that will emerge as the key component of the prosecution's case with Cohen set to testify at some point later in this trial.

So what the jury heard a little while ago was a small snippet from a recording of a phone call. And in it, you actually hear Michael Cohen talking about Donald Trump saying this. He said, he said to me, I hate the fact that we did it, meaning Donald Trump said to him he hated the fact that they paid Stormy Daniels off.

And then Michael Cohen, you hear him responding saying every person we've spoken to will tell you it was the right move.

So this does seem to be referencing the Stormy Daniels' payoff in a conversation that Cohen had directly with Donald Trump. And then just a little while ago, we actually heard a snippet of Michael Cohen's voice as well, seeming to talk to Donald Trump again.

So this is again, all part of the preview of what is likely to come from prosecutors linking Donald Trump to the hush money payment and this alleged scheme to cover up this payment, those false business records.

So you know, Erica, we are hearing from this data expert who may seem to be working in mundane terms, in terms of getting this metadata and the data from the cellphones, but this is really important because this is how prosecutors are going to introduce this audio evidence to the jury, and later, at some point later in this trial, we will actually hear directly from Michael Cohen.

But again, all of this laying the groundwork for Michael Cohen's testimony down the road.

HILL: It certainly is, Jessica, appreciate it. Thank you.

Also with me this hour, Bennett Gershman, he is a distinguished professor of law at Pace University in New York, and also former prosecutor in New York State's Anti-Corruption Office.

It is good to have you with us.

After David Pecker's testimony, the first witness here, you see the prosecution had really set up the case in your words, effectively noting that subsequent witnesses would connect the dots, reinforce the sleazy plot, and likely bury Donald Trump.

Did Keith Davidson in your view, accomplish any of that today, given the fact that he made clear he was not dealing with Donald Trump in those negotiations, he was dealing with Michael Cohen?

BENNETT GERSHMAN, PROFESSOR OF LAW, PACE UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK: Well, Michael Cohen is part of the conspiracy with Donald Trump and David Pecker.

It is clear that Michael Cohen was acting as Trump's personal lawyer. Michael Cohen was negotiating these deals with the "National Enquirer" and with Keith Davidson, who was the lawyer here for Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels.

So the dots are getting connected, pretty, as I say, effectively.

[16:15:10]

And the story is now unfolding in a broad framework. It is going to get more detailed, but we know that this was a conspiracy to suppress damaging information about Trump, to publish information about Trump's rivals, and that was the gist of this scheme. They called it the catch and kill scheme to catch bad, damaging stories about Trump and bury them.

And so far, I think the evidence has says come in from Pecker, from his editor-in-chief, Howard, from Keith Davidson. The evidence has been compelling. It has been clear, the jury is paying very close attention, and it seems to me that the prosecution's case has gone in very, very strongly, and I don't believe that the attempt by the defense to try to knock holes in it has been successful.

I mean, they are trying to show that Trump had nothing to do with it. That it wasn't for the election. That it was all done by Michael Cohen on his own.

I mean, there is not very much here that the defense can work with to try to suggest that Keith Davidson was a serial extortionist. He was. He admits it.

And the interchange and the strong cross-examination really didn't accomplish very much, I don't think. I think right now, the story is very clear in the jury's eyes and more evidence is going to come into corroborate everything that has already been presented in a very, very powerful way.

So right now, I think the prosecution is sitting pretty strongly and is pretty confident about their case.

HILL: I am curious at your take on some of the evidence that was just brought in. So this is coming into us, from the courtroom, Jessica touched on some of this, but part of what is being introduced and with this expert who is on the stand now for the -- he works in the DA's office -- they are talking about a phone call, a recording from -- a recording, I should say from September of 2016, Donald Trump's voice can be heard on it. He is on a phone call when the recording starts. When he hangs up,

Michael Cohen says, "That was a great call by the way." This is the call to Michael Cohen, calling, saying he needs to open a company. He has already spoken with Allen Weisselberg, of course, who held the purse strings there at the Trump Organization about how to set the whole thing up.

This is again, trying to lay that groundwork as you point out for how the plan came together.

How important is that call?

GERSHMAN: If this is the call I think it is, it is a critical piece of evidence. In this call, Trump is asking Cohen, how much do we have to pay? Whether we can do it by check. This call is showing that Trump knows about what is going on, knows about the payments and is using Cohen to figure out how to arrange the payments, and whether we have to pay that much.

But it shows Trump's knowledge of what is going on and his intention to silence these witnesses who would testify to his sex salacious relationships with these women.

So this call shows Trump's knowledge, his intent. It exposes Trump as being the key mastermind really of this conspiracy.

It is a powerful piece of evidence and the jury is going to hear it very soon, I believe.

HILL: I really appreciate your expertise, taking the time to join us today. Thank you.

GERSHMAN: Stay with us, we are continuing to follow the testimony here on Day 10 of Donald Trump's hush money trial. We will have more to come.

Also ahead tonight, a CNN investigation into an Israeli airstrike that killed a group of children in Gaza. The Israeli Defense Forces response is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:18]

SOARES: Three children were killed in an Israeli airstrike at the Al-Shaboura Refugee Camp in Rafah on Tuesday night. That is according to officials in Gaza.

In a statement, the Israeli military said remaining in an active combat zone has inherent risks, and that it was taking precautions to mitigate harm to civilians.

Well, CNN has been investigating an Israeli airstrike on another refugee camp in Gaza last month. A group of children were killed in that attack. We must warn you that there are disturbing images in this report from our Jeremy Diamond. JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Isa, two weeks ago, we brought

you the story of a deadly strike on the Al-Maghazi Refugee Camp. The harrowing images of the bodies of children splayed around a foosball table in the middle of that street, and we've since spent the last two weeks investigating that strike.

Our stringer in Gaza, Mohammad Al-Sawalhi went back to the scene of the strike documenting visual evidence from the strike, marks from shrapnel, a crater in the middle of the road, and pieces of shrapnel recovered at the scene.

Three munitions experts who reviewed this visual evidence say that it was caused by a precision-guided munitions deployed by the Israeli military.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (voice over): This grainy home video is the closest Mona Audatallah will ever get to seeing her 10-year-old daughter.

A stack of school certificates, a wardrobe of her favorite clothes, the perfume she used to wear, all that remains of the daughter Mona poured everything into.

(MONA AUDATALLAH speaking in foreign language.)

DIAMOND: "There is no Shahed now. Every time she came in she said, 'mom,'" I would say my soul, my soul, my soul is gone.

Shahed was one of 10 children killed when an Israeli airstrike hit the crowded street in the Al-Maghazi Refugee Camp where she was playing with her friends.

Her pink pants, impossible to miss, among the small bodies splayed around a foosball table in the chaotic aftermath.

Two weeks later, the Israeli military still won't take responsibility for the strike that killed her.

CNN provided the IDF with the coordinates and time of the attack based on metadata from two different phones in the immediate aftermath.

The IDF said they did not have a record of that strike. They said they carried out a strike at a different time than described and that the collateral damage as described in the query is not known to the IDF. "The IDF makes great efforts to mitigate harm to the civilian population from areas where strikes are being carried out."

Evidence recovered and documented by CNN at the scene of the strike paints a very different picture of Israeli military responsibility. This circuit board and bits of shrapnel, walls and shop steps distinctively pockmarked and a small crater barely a foot wide, all pointing three munitions experts to the same conclusion.

The carnage was likely caused by a precision-guided munition deployed by the Israeli military. CHRIS COBB-SMITH, WEAPONS EXPERT: I've seen these strikes so many

times. There's a relatively small crater in the road. There's no large shrapnel holes or fragmentation holes that would have been -- which would have been caused by, say, a mortar round or an artillery round. The fragmentation is consistent.

DIAMOND (on camera): So in your view, this strike was caused by a precision-guided drone fired missile.

COBB-SMITH: Absolutely. This is an Israeli munition. The local militias, the local forces do not have anything with this amount of sophistication.

[16:25:07]

DIAMOND (voice over): Before carrying out the strike, Israeli drones would have surveilled the Al-Maghazi Refugee Camp from above.

Seconds later, the missile hits the street below, landing in the middle of the road, just a few feet away from the foosball table where Shahed and her friends were playing that day, delivering certain death.

Against all odds, these children have returned to play at the very same foosball table, including some of Shahed's friends.

(SAMA speaking in foreign language.)

DIAMOND: "I miss her a lot," Sama says, wearing a necklace Shahed made her. She says she was nearly killed with her friend, going home moments before the strike to drink water.

Others were not as lucky. Eight-year-old Ahmed is fighting for his life, bleeding from his brain, his skull fractured. His chances of surviving are slim, his doctor explains. He is fighting not to become the 11th child killed in that same strike.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (on camera); And Isa, sadly, we have since learned that that eight-year-old boy, Ahmed has died of the injuries sustained in that strike becoming the 11th child to have been killed by that very same strike.

And you know, thinking back to that Israeli military response to all of this, they talked about the fact that the collateral damage as they put it is not known to the IDF, but nowhere in that statement did they pledge to investigate the carnage that took place that day -- Isa.

SOARES: Important reporting. Our thanks to Jeremy Diamond and to his team there on the ground.

And still to come tonight, back to the latest on US college campus protesters, police clear pro-Palestinian encampments, and President Biden weighs in on the protests, speaking directly to people that turned to violence on campus. Do stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:40]

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. We are tracking chaotic scenes as police and university leaders tried to restore order on some U.S. college campuses.

Police in Oregon said they've cleared out a pro-Palestinian protest at the Portland State University library as officers in riot gear push through and many of the demonstrators started running. We heard from one student journalist in the last, what, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, I should say or so. Oregon's governor says 15 Portland police cars were burned on Thursday and condemned what she called criminal actions.

Meanwhile, this is the aftermath. You can see right there for police clear out at the campus of UCLA. Workers have been dismantling the encampment and removing debris. The California Highway Patrol says there were more than 100 arrests during the operation. We've also heard from our Stephanie Elam on the ground painting exactly that picture.

And New York police say roughly half of the almost 300 people arrested at Columbia University and City College Tuesday night were not affiliated with the school.

Let's get more on all of this. CNN's Hadas Gold joins us now from New York.

And Hadas, I have spoken for the last few hours in fact with student journalists about these protests. They've been giving us the very latest. You have been looking at the bigger issue, right? The bigger media issue, and the challenge of getting information out. What have you been learning from these students?

HADAS GOLD, CNN MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, the moral of this is that the stars of this coverage is really these student journalists.

SOARES: Yes.

GOLD: Because the access at so many of these universities has been restricted to only those who have student IDs and often that means that these student journalists, that these newspapers at these radio stations are the only ones who can have access, who can bear witness to what's happening on these campuses, who could be the eyes and ears of the world.

And keep in mind, Isa, this is happening at a time when it's finals season. You know, they should be in the library studying but they're getting their education now in this real-world, essentially conflict reporting. I've been talking to several of them and they are learning, you know, on the fly how to cover in what can be a dangerous situation. They're making their own press pass, just essentially buying these high viz best and stenciling in press on them. They've been writing on their arms in Sharpie the phone number,

important phone numbers just in case they get detained or arrested. The phone numbers are, for example, the board members of their student newspaper who might be lawyers who could potentially help them. This is incredible to see because not only are they covering this, and it's very difficult to cover it, they also themselves have been threatened with arrest.

And we are hearing that from the "Daily Bruin," the UCLA college paper they say several of their reporters were actually violently assaulted in the early hours of Wednesday morning. They were telling the "Los Angeles Times" that they believed that they were pro-Israel counter protesters. This is that night was that height of sort of the violence between counter protesters and protesters.

At least one of their staffers have to go to the hospital as a result of these violent assault. And yet the "Daily Bruin" has continued reporting. And if you go onto their X, formerly known as Twitter page, you can just see the stream of constant information they are pushing on. Keep in mind these student journalists, they know these campuses like no other. They know these students and student leaders like no other.

So they're the ones that really are the best eyes and ears on the ground, and the "Daily Bruin," they issued a scathing editorial about the UCLA, essentially blasting the school's leadership and declaring UCLA complicit in the violence inflicted upon the protesters.

At Columbia, which also had very intense restrictions on access. You have to have a student I.D. in order to access the campus. And that continues through today. The student radio station was broadcasting live overnight as police were going in to take out those students from Hamilton Hall, and you could hear them in the live broadcast telling the police, we don't know where to go. Where do you want us to go? They were also threatened with arrest.

Our own Julia Vargas Jones actually from CNN, essentially the reason she was able to report live from the scene for us is because she's also studying for a master's degree there, and she recruited her fellow students to be her camera people. She said that the police had no idea that they were broadcasting live on CNN because they thought it was just students on campus. And actually credit goes to the Columbia Journalism School because while the rest of the administration students there tell me were not exactly allowing a student journalists to report from there.

And a lot of journals were pushed out. It was actually the Columbia Journalism School that was facilitating reporting, allowing students to be in the building, allowing students to report from there. Julia tells me that actually she even slept in an edit bay there because they were so fearful of not being able to gain access back to campus.

[16:35:06]

These are the types of stories we often hear from reporters reporting from abroad. SOARES: Yes.

GOLD: And instead, we're hearing them from reporters on campus. And so it's really interesting because not only are these campus protests influencing a generation of students, they're influencing a generation of journalists, and actually ironically, on Monday, the Pulitzer Prizes will be awarded at Columbia University, which of course has been one of the epicenters of all of this.

They released a statement this morning saying that they want to recognize, the Pulitzer Board, the tireless efforts of student journalists across our nation's college campuses, recovering protests and unrests in the face of great personal and academic risk -- Isa.

SOARES: Yes, we're so grateful of course to them for providing us with the color and the information, and all the news gathering, of course that we would not have been able to get had it not been for them.

Hadas, great to see you. Thanks very much.

And as Hadas was talking, I'm just showing you these images -- can we just bring them up from Rutgers University? Are these live? Can just someone confirm whether they're alive or not? So these are live images there from Rutgers University in New Jersey, and what we understand is that the university has set a deadline for students to remove encampment by 4:00 p.m. So really now has gone, what, 35 minutes or so.

We have seen, my producer is telling my ear because I missed it, the close-up shot, some of the students breaking up, some of that tents, and clearly heeding that call. But this is something that we've heard from the university and some of them, it seems, have been listening. We'll keep an eye on those images and as any developments, of course, from New Jersey. We shall, of course, bring it to you.

Well, U.S. President Biden delivered his most extensive remarks yet on the campus protests. Speaking from the White House on Thursday, the president said demonstrators should be free to express their views, but should not devolve into trespassing and violence. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You are not in an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dissent. American people are heard. In fact, peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues. But, but, neither are we a lawless country. We're a civil society and order must prevail.

Throughout our history, we've often faced moments like this because we are a big, diverse, free-thinking and freedom-loving nation. In moments like this, there are always those who rush in to score political points but this isn't a moment for politics. It's a moment for clarity.

So let me be clear. Peaceful protest in America, violent protest is not protected. Peaceful protest is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Let's get more on this. James Traub is a columnist at "Foreign Policy" and author of several books. His latest, "True Believer: Hubert Humphrey's Quest for a More Just America." And he's just written an article titled, "Biden Needs to Learn from the Democrats' Disaster in '68." Of course, we all read this very early hours of this morning, the team and I, so we're grateful for that piece.

And James, welcome to the show. I'm keen to get your thoughts on the comparisons between what we've seen today in 1968. But first of all, I wonder if you could share some of your insights of what you've learned. Your reaction really to what we heard today from President Biden in that speech. I mean, the contents weren't surprising, but the messaging was very clear.

JAMES TRAUB, COLUMNIST, FOREIGN POLICY: Well, I think he has such a narrow path to tread that I think he said the right thing and did as well as he could do, which is we respect their right to protest, but protest, of course, cannot be violent. But, you know, the narrow path is very, very similar to the one Hubert Humphrey faced in 1968, including very much at the Democratic Convention, where you had a war which was increasingly unpopular but you also had a large part of the public, which did not like the kinds of spectacular and sometimes violent protests that were going on.

If anything, I would say the Vietnam War was more unpopular with the American people than the Israel-Gaza war is right now. So Biden cannot be seen as accepting the validity of the criticisms that the students are in while at the same time, if he's seen as repudiating, a candidate who already is seen as a kind of machine candidate of the institutional party, loses whatever connection he has to the energy and idealism of young couple. It's a real hard problem.

SOARES: And of course the protests and then that point really, James, that you're making, you know, they're mostly college students, young voters who are key demographic, as we've said for several days now, for Democrats and they're all, as we've shown viewers, protesting in different ways, but their aim and the key -- what they're trying to get out of it is the same.

[16:40:06]

They are demanding than their universities, many with large endowments, financially divest from Israel. Today, we heard obviously that message from President Biden also saying he won't reconsider his policies vis-a-vis Israel. Could this cost him in your view a second term?

TRAUB: Well, OK, let's imagine a situation. Let's say Netanyahu goes into Rafah in full force as he has said he will do, which would enormously -- pardon me -- amp up the protests and turn even more people against Israel. Does Biden do nothing? It seems to me, if he does nothing then he really could lose a significant, a meaningful, let's say, part of the vote, it's an excruciating problem. But the thing that I think needs to be emphasized, it's very easy to

forget is that Biden's danger, like Humphrey's danger, by the way, in '68 is not to the left nearly as much as it is to the right. That is to say he has been losing votes among more conservative Democrats. Those people are, if you ask them, are you pro-Israel or pro-Hamas, it's an easy answer. They're pro-Israel. And they're certainly going to be hostile to what they consider to be chaotic demonstrations.

So there is a greater danger to his right, as there was in Humphrey's case. So he has to worry very much about both sides.

SOARES: I wonder, we had we had on our air today, James, Senator Bernie Sanders speaking to our Christiane Amanpour, and he called this moment Biden's Vietnam. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, in terms of his campaign, you know, I am thinking back and other people are making this reference that this may be Biden's Vietnam. Lyndon Johnson in many respects was a very, very good president domestically, brought forth some major pieces of legislation. He chose not to run in '68 because of opposition to his views on Vietnam, and I worry very much that President Biden is putting himself in a position where he has alienated not just young people, but a lot of the Democratic base.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: James, you agree with that? Is that -- is this Biden's Vietnam moment? And if so, I mean, how can Biden mitigate this?

TRAUB: Let's distinguish between something political and something substitute. It is not his substantive Vietnam moment because American soldiers are not fighting and dying over there, OK.

SOARES: Yes.

TRAUB: It's too easy to conflate the two. Politically, however, what is true is that it could be his Vietnam moment in the sense of accentuating the fractures inside his own party and giving a tremendous talking point to Donald Trump, who would say, look at those Democrats, they're the party of crazy people. They're the party of disorder. So yes, politically, it's very perilous.

SOARES: Yes. And for Trump, like you just said, I mean, this is a political gift and on that, I want to pick a bit of what you wrote in your "Wall Street Journal" piece. You wrote, Donald Trump will seize on any convulsions as further proof that America under Democratic rule is dissolving into anarchy. In 1968 terms, Trump is George Wallace, not Richard Nixon. Wallace only won five states in Deep South. The rhetoric that was deemed intolerable then has been normalized today."

Speak to this moment and the importance of this moment and how President Biden balances this.

TRAUB: Well, this specific phrase you seized on there is something I talked a lot about in my book, but also frankly, I talked about in an earlier book I wrote called "What is Liberalism," that that the language that George Wallace used, which is that he said, us people, us right-thinking people against that weak liberals and pointy headed people, and so on, that language was really deemed unacceptable in the United States until Donald Trump revived it.

His language, if anything, I would say is darker than George Wallace's language and yet he has close to half the country supporting him. And so I think the fears about this moment in that way are different from '68 because it's hard to remember, but the Richard Nixon of 1968 was not the Richard Nixon of '72 much less the Watergate Richard Nixon. He was a moderate Republican. A lot of people thought big deal if he gets elected instead of Hubert Humphrey.

Nobody thinks that now. And so the consequence of some small shift in the balance of opinion towards Donald Trump is vastly more grave than I think even it was in 1968.

[16:45:02]

SOARES: Yes. James, fascinating. I wish we had more time, but of course I have to read your book. Appreciated it, James Traub. Thank you very much. Really important conversation.

We're going to take a short break. We're back on the other side.

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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump has left the New York courtroom for the day. The final witness today, a digital evidence analyst who was questioned about messages and recordings on Michael Cohen's iPhones. Much of the day, however, was reserved for testimony from the attorney who negotiated Stormy Daniels' $130,000 hush money payment ahead of the 2016 election.

Davidson denied that Daniels was trying to use leverage against Trump, although he did admit on the stand to using the word leverage with Cohen. Earlier in the day a prosecutor asked Davidson to explain the process of negotiating that $130,000 payment from Michael Cohen, who of course at the time was Donald Trump's personal attorney.

The day started with Judge Juan Merchan holding a hearing to consider some new claims, four, from the prosecution, alleging that Donald Trump has once again violated the judge's gag order in this case. They're asking he be fined $1,000 for each of those four alleged violations. No ruling today but of course we'll stay on top of that and let you know when there is one.

Katelyn Polantz joining us now with more as court has now wrapped for the day essentially. Most of the time, of course, devoted to Keith Davidson, but we did get some interesting information from that final witness, this data analyst -- Katelyn.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica, a long day of testimony and evidence for the jury in this sixth day of the prosecutors presenting their case in the hush money trial against Donald Trump. And that moment at the end of the day, the jury got to hear Donald Trump's voice in the courtroom. The man is there not testifying, but what the analyst from the district attorney's office was able to do was bring in evidence of an audio recording of Donald Trump speaking with Michael Cohen, his lawyer at the time the 2016 election, who was also helping him on many other issues.

In 2016, they were talking about business, opening up a company in September of 2016 to pay or to finance the purchase of the rights to a story. According to previous CNN reporting of the testimony, it doesn't seem to be just there yet. That conversation was about Karen McDougal, one of the women who had a story to tell about an alleged affair with Donald Trump at that time, and who was kept quiet because, partly because Michael Cohen was so adamant in making sure these stories were not getting out there at a time that could have hurt Donald Trump's campaign.

[16:50:11]

So Trump's voice is part of the record now as is Michael Cohen's voice. Michael Cohen potentially a key witness coming up in the prosecution's case. Much of the testimony today from another attorney, Keith Davidson, who had represented Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, another one of these women with a story to tell about Donald Trump.

The testimony of Keith Davidson did seem much to be about Michael Cohen, especially as the defense team questioned him very rigorously, trying to distance Donald Trump from the actions of Michael Cohen. Where that will ultimately land as this case continues to build, we'll just have to see -- Erica.

HILL: All right, Katelyn, appreciate it. Thank you.

And stay with us. We'll be right back on the other side of this break.

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SOARES: And we're not just seeing student protests in the United States, they are also taking place right around the world. This is, we're going about to show you, was in Northern France at the Lille School of Journalism this Thursday. Classes were cancelled there because of a blockade.

There is also a small pro-Palestinian encampment at the University of Valencia in Spain. Meantime, in Iraq, university students as well as professors rallied at the Baghdad Campus. They were showing solidarity with Gaza and the pro-Palestinian protests in the United States. And similar protests in Australia. This is from the University of Sydney just a few days ago. Among their demands that the schools disclose all links to Israeli companies, as well as universities and cut ties with weapons companies.

While Hamas is praising Columbia's decision to sever diplomatic ties with Israel over the war in Gaza, Colombian President Gustavo Petro made the announcement at a -- rally, I should say, in the capital Bogota on Wednesday. Mr. Petro says the Israeli government's handling of the situation in Gaza is, quote, "genocidal." Stefano Pozzebon is with us from Bogota with all the details.

So, Stefano, sever ties then with Israel, what does that mean in real terms and what does that do to Israeli-Colombian relations here?

[16:55:00]

STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Yes, Isa, well, the Colombian Foreign Ministry has told us last night and this morning that they're pulling out all of their diplomatic personnel from Tel Aviv at the earliest convenience. However, they say that they will maintain consular assistance to Colombian citizens, both in Israel and Palestine.

Late last night the Israeli foreign minister reacted to this decision from the Petro government calling Petro an antisemitic precedent full of hate, and remember that Israel and Colombia have enjoyed warm relationships for decades. In fact, Israel is one of the main supplier of light firearms and weapons to the Colombian Army and the Colombia Special Forces in particular.

But I think that we need to look at this, Isa, from a broader context. Petro has been threatening with an action like this one for many times in the last seven months. Colombia has supported South African action at the International Court of Justice against Israel in the Hague. And Petro himself clashed repeatedly with the Israeli ambassador here in Bogota ever since the attack by Hamas against Israel on October 7th.

And yesterday, when he made that announcement, Petro, he spoke about his desire to be a voice for millions of protesters, pro-Palestine protesters all around the world. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUSTAVO PETRO, COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Here in front of you, the government of change, the president of the republic, informs that tomorrow diplomatic relations will be broken with the state of Israel for having a government, for having a president that's genocidal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POZZEBON: So, Isa, I think it's too early to say whether Petro will pay a political price for this action in relation to those supply of military weapons for the Colombian Army. So a lot of stake there. But I think it's clear that there is a direct line between those university protesters from Valencia in Spain, Paris, Sydney, or all across the U.S., and this action by the Colombian president who tries to be a world leader, to talk more and more on a global stage and not just to his own constituency here in Bogota -- Isa.

SOARES: Yes. And Stefano, I mean, given what we've seen, the protests of the United States, of course, not just the United States, worldwide, I wonder how the global south is seeing this moment?

POZZEBON: Yes, I mean, this is not the first South American country that breaks the relationship with Israel over the war in Gaza. Bolivia did that as well, and many countries in the region have supported one way or another the South African action at the Hague. Of course Petro and the Bolivian president are taking a more harsher line, but many people, at least in South America and in other countries, in other regions in the global south, are looking with increasing skepticism at Israel.

SOARES: Yes. Stefano Pozzebon there, for us with the very latest. Appreciate it.

That does it for us for tonight. Do stay right here. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" is up next.

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