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Larry King Live

Should Elian Gonzalez Return to His Father in Cuba?

Aired January 5, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, U.S. immigration officials say 6- year-old Elian Gonzalez belongs with his father and must be returned to Cuba. Joining us from New York to discuss this very controversial decision, the Reverend Joan Brown Campbell, who had dinner last night with Fidel Castro and Elian's dad, from Miami -- and Elian's dad was with her in Havana. From Miami, one of Elian's cousins. She wants the little boy to stay in the USA. From New Hampshire, Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain.

And then, the murder of actress Rebecca Schaeffer was a wake-up call about stalking, but that threat still looms in many lives. Marcia Clark prosecuted Schaeffer's killer. She'll join us to talk about anti-stalking action. We'll also hear from actress Theresa Saldana, survivor of a horrifying knife attack, and actress Andrea Evans, who spent a decade hiding from a stalker. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We begin with Reverend Joan Brown Campbell, just landed in New York from Cuba, where she spent last night with Fidel Castro and with Elian's father and grandfather.

Reverend Campbell, were you surprised about this decision by immigration today?

REV. JOAN BROWN CAMPBELL, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF CHURCHES: No. We actually had gotten word that this decision would be made. But it feels a lot different when you hear the actual decision being announced.

KING: And I gather you agreed with it?

CAMPBELL: We feel that it's the fair and just decision.

KING: Why did you go to Cuba?

CAMPBELL: Sorry, I didn't quite hear that.

KING: Why did you go to Cuba?

CAMPBELL: We went to Cuba in order to see the family. Our feeling was -- we were asked, essentially, by the churches in Cuba if we would come and visit. Our feeling was that the families here had gotten a lot of information out to the public, but that very few people really knew about Elian's family in Cuba. KING: So did you go, Reverend Campbell, with a preconceived -- you can't hear me?

CAMPBELL: I can't hear you. We're going to have to...

KING: Just push it in your ear, if it's falling out.

CAMPBELL: It's fine. We got it.

KING: OK. Did you go to Cuba with a preconceived notion to favor the father?

CAMPBELL: No, I wouldn't say so. I think that what we did was to go feeling that we needed to know the father, we needed to know that family and to see what it is we might be able to say as a third party about that family.

KING: Would you say if you had doubts about the father you would have so told us?

CAMPBELL: Yes, I would have done that. I think you know me. I think I would have said that. The fact of the matter is, this is a good father, and the INS has done several investigations. They agree he's a good father. And it's a wonderful, loving family. There's grandparents, great grandparents, aunts, uncles, a full complement of a family there.

KING: We're looking at the father now in Havana.

Critics, Reverend Campbell, say that the National Council of Churches is a very liberal element of Christianity and is preconceived to favor things like this, had always been kind of pro-Castro, in and sense. How do you respond?

CAMPBELL: I think we're pro-child. I think this doesn't have to do with being pro-Castro or pro-Cuba. We believe very strongly that the child needs to grow up in the family where he was born, and there is every evidence they can emotionally support him, and economically they will have no difficulty taking care of him. I think in this country we would automatically say, when you have a wonderful, loving family, that's where the child gets the best possibilities.

KING: Logically, Reverend Campbell, since you know the benefits of the United States, did you at all try to convince the father to move here?

CAMPBELL: No, we didn't do that at all. That was not what we figured was our task to do. What we did was to ask the father to talk to us, about the little boy, about his relationships, about the relationships within the family. To me -- I have to just tell one incident. The mother of the mother who was -- who died on the sea...

KING: The grandmother.

CAMPBELL: The grandmother. She was -- had the most poignant statement, when she said, I've lost my daughter, and all I have left is my grandson, Elian. And I want very much for him to be raised by his father. And that's...

KING: What did Premier Castro say?

CAMPBELL: He wasn't there during this discussion. We had a -- last night was really a sort of celebration dinner, a chance for us to have an informal time with him. But we had six hours with the family without any Cuban government officials being there at all. We had requested that. It was granted to us. And at the end of the interview, I asked the father, if he had anything to say to me privately, and unfortunately -- I am not a Spanish speaker -- I -- myself and an interpreter asked him what he had to say in absolute confidence.

KING: The Immigration officials did ask him to come to the United States to get the child. Does he plan to do that?

CAMPBELL: I don't know. I think -- he is obviously willing to be cooperative, if that's helpful. He does not want to find himself embroiled in a long legal battle. And he doesn't want to do anything that would make Elian's life have to face another trauma. I think he is somewhat fearful that that might happen if he came here.

KING: Reverend, you remain with us.

When we come back, we'll be joined by Elian Gonzalez's cousin in Miami, a lawyer representing him in Miami and a lawyer who filed on behalf of the father. He'll be in Chicago. They'll all join us, along with Reverend Campbell, and later we'll get the thoughts of John McCain, and then our panel on stalking.

The Doles, Elizabeth and Robert, on Friday night.

We'll be right back.


KING: We're with Reverend Joan Brown Campbell, former general secretary National Council of Churches, just back from Havana.

We're now joined in Miami by Georgina Cid-Cruz. She is Elian Gonzalez's cousin in Miami, desirous of him staying there. In Chicago is Jeffrey Leving. He's a famed custody attorney, normally representing the father in custody hearings all over the United States, and he filed a brief on behalf of Elian's father. And in Miami is Roger Bernstein, who represent -- Roger, are you the attorney for Elian? What is your position in all of this?

ROGER BERNSTEIN, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: Yes, I am one of the attorneys who represents Elian Gonzalez and also Lazaro Gonzalez in the capacity for Elian.

KING: They had to appoint you, right?

BERNSTEIN: Yes, they signed a notice of representation that we act on their behalf, yes.

KING: And Lazaro is who?

BERNSTEIN: Lazaro is Elian's great uncle.

KING: OK. What is the precedent for giving this child to an uncle or a cousin?

BERNSTEIN: Well, it's a custody determination that is made by INS, whereby the parents are not physically present in the United States, and the INS has the discretion to parole a child into the custody of a relative.

So that's why the decision that -- and they made a determination that the home was fit, that Lazaro and his relatives were loving parents, and that it was proper to put them into the custody of the family.

KING: Just so I understand it legally, Roger, do you appeal this immigration decision today, or is the courts a separate matter?

BERNSTEIN: Well, we -- first of all, Larry, we asked the attorney general of the United States to review this decision. This decision is unprecedented. I've been dealing with asylum issues for 10 years. This is the first time where a child has requested asylum, that the claim is summarily dismissed. And in Cuba -- and we are in a position now where the child will be returned to Cuba. This is an irrevocable decision, whereby Elian's rights cannot be heard.

KING: But Elian didn't make the request?

BERNSTEIN: Elian did make the request, and Lazaro, as the custodian for Elian, did make the request.

KING: But Elian himself didn't say -- I mean, he's 5, 6 years old.

BERNSTEIN: Elian has stated that he wants to remain in the United States, but it brings me to a very important point, Larry. The guidelines that INS has issued on representing a child in the asylum context -- I'm sorry, my earplug keeps popping out -- specifically states, when a child is too young to articulate that decision, the INS is obligated to consider all of the evidence, not just the testimony of the father...

KING: I see.

BERNSTEIN: ... but to hear all the evidence. And that would include psychological examinations, talking to witnesses that -- talking to relatives in Miami that also can speak to the coercion that believe the father is...

KING: I got you. Let me -- while we fix your earphone, let me speak to Jeffrey Leving in Chicago.

Jeffrey, where do you stand now? You have won the immigration. What -- do you wait for what the attorney general says? What's your side do now? JEFFREY LEVING, CUSTODY ATTORNEY: Well right now, I am waiting to talk to the American coalition for fathers and children, to see if they want me to file an additional amicus brief based on what has recently occurred, and I intend to discuss that matter with them. They are my client. I filed the amicus brief on their behalf. And INS agreed with my amicus brief. And I am have very, very happy. And I think the child's best interests will be served.

But the real issue here is, nobody in the United States has standing to make any legal decisions concerning the immigration status of this young child -- nobody, and that's the issue.

KING: If the other side appeals, do -- will we eventually have a court hearing, other than this Immigration hearing?

LEVING: My feeling right now is that INS made a decision, and I believe the boy will go back to his father in Cuba. I don't think there is any legal strategy or maneuvering that can change or will change the ins decision.

KING: You expect, though, to be legal strategy and maneuvering, don't you? You don't expect this boy to go back tomorrow?

LEVING: Well, unfortunately, I don't expect the boy to go back tomorrow. And the information I was given prior to this show, that some type of pleading for a temporary restraining order would be filed in court to prevent the child from being sent back to Cuba, and that was the information I was given. But the reality of it is, the INS clearly decided that no one has standing in the United States to do anything here, and the only one with legal authority is the father.

BERNSTEIN: I'd like to respond.

KING: Georgina -- hold it, let me ask Georgina first.

Georgina, you are Elian's cousin, are you not?


KING: Do you know Elian's father.

CID-CRUZ: Yes I know him. I lived over there for 10 years before coming over to Miami.

KING: Is he a good father.

CID-CRUZ: I don't know how he was with his son. I would believe that he is a good father. I don't know, because when I left Cuba, I was 10, and he was about 12 or 13, more or less, so I don't know how he is now.

KING: Why do you want the boy to stay in Miami, because you must have some feelings that a father and a son kind of belong together?

CID-CRUZ: OK, first of all...

KING: I mean, logically, a father and son belong together.

CID-CRUZ: OK, first of all, I agree with you that the father and son should be together, but Cuba is not like United States. You don't have liberty there. This boy is not going to have liberty to say what he feels. He's not going to have things that here are normal for a 6- year-old, he's not going to have it there. And the most important thing -- and I think people are forgetting this -- is that his mom left Cuba because there was a reason for her to leave Cuba, because she wasn't happy there. She left, bringing the boy over. In that, she risked her, died, went through a lot, OK. And left the boy at the mercy of God, OK, for him to come over here. What he has gone through, it's not even...

KING: Would you -- I understand. Georgina, would you be happiest if the father came to the United States? Would that make you the happiest?

CID-CRUZ: I would be very happy if he would come to the United States. I would be very happy if he could stay in the United States with Elian.

KING: Yes, that's what I mean, yes.


KING: And, Reverend Campbell, by the way, did the father know that the mother was taking the child to the United States?

CAMPBELL: No, he didn't know, and not only did he not know, but the grandparents didn't know either. So it came as a total shock to them. And the way the father found out that he was here I think is an important piece of the story. He was called by a doctor in a hospital in Miami.

CID-CRUZ: That's not true, I'm sorry. That's not true. Can I talk?

KING: Hold it. We'll let her...

CAMPBELL: How about you let me finish?

KING: Hold on, reverend.

Georgina, do you know how the father found out?

CID-CRUZ: The father called my house, OK, and spoke to my mother to tell her to please find out where Elian and his mother were because he didn't know.

KING: I see.

CID-CRUZ: OK. And that's how we started to find out where were they, until we heard on the news that they found him in the sea.

KING: I got you.

CAMPBELL: Yes, and...

KING: All right, I understand. Both sides are correct. All right, hold on. Hold on.

We'll take a break, and we'll be right back. Don't go away.


DORIS MEISSNER, INS COMMISSIONER: The father made it very clear during both of these meetings that he wants Elian returned to him as soon as possible. Based on these meetings, INS believes that the father is expressing his true wishes, and therefore, we have determined that Elian should be reunited with his father.


KING: Reverend Campbell, can you understand the feelings of the family represented by Georgina tonight in Miami?

CAMPBELL: I certainly can. I think that I understand the feelings. I happen to believe that children do better when they are brought up in the home in which they were born. I think that there's a full complement of family members here -- grandparents, great grandparents, uncles. The father is married again, has a new baby. There's wonderful pictures of Elian around the house. We saw the room where he sleeps, the school where he goes to school, and I brought back to him notes from his friends in school, the other little 6-year- olds, who are worried about whether or not he's going to catch up with his mathematics. Every indication is that it's good situation for him.

KING: Georgina, did not the mother put the boy in peril?

CID-CRUZ: I'm sorry, I don't understand.

KING: Did not the mother put the boy in peril? I mean, that boy was lucky to be alive.

CID-CRUZ: The boy is lucky to be alive, because if it wouldn't have been for that mother that put him in that innertube, he wouldn't be here, and for those people that saved his life, the fishermen, he wouldn't be here. So I wonder what would have happened if he would have died, you know, because this is just God's wishes. God wanted him to be here.

KING: All right. So your position, Georgina, is you think he should be with his father but the father should be in the United States?

CID-CRUZ: That's right.

KING: All right. And Reverend Campbell's position is the father can be where he wants to be and the father is entitled to the boy.

CID-CRUZ: But Larry, but the father...


We're not sure that the father...

KING: One at a time. One at a time. Reverend, hold on. Georgina, what?

CID-CRUZ: OK. We don't know that the father wants to be over there because the father can be told -- can be being told what to say.

KING: OK. How do you know, Reverend Campbell, that the father was being open with you? He's in a dictatorship.

CAMPBELL: Well, I'll tell you why I think that -- the INS agreed with this, and they interviewed him two or three times. We were with the family for quite a long period. And it's not just father. It's that large family that is there waiting for this little boy.

And you know, you can arrange a lot of things, but it's very hard to arrange human emotion. And it's very clear...

KING: Roger -- all right. Hold on, reverend.

Roger, would you say that the odds are now, based on this, against you keeping this boy here?

BERNSTEIN: The odds are not against us, Larry. The odds are on the side of justice. And all we're asking is to have Elian's case be heard.

Reverend Campbell could interview Elian's father in Cuba a hundred times and he still could not speak freely. That is the point...

KING: All right. Roger, are you a father?

BERNSTEIN: Yes, I am a father.

KING: Would you relinquish your boy to someone, to a cousin?

BERNSTEIN: No, and if I -- I would -- if I were the father, I would go to all ends of the earth to be with that boy. It speaks volumes, Larry, that he is not here with the boy. If...

KING: All right. And Jeffrey in -- please don't interrupt. Jeffrey Leving in Chicago, what about that point? Why don't we just settle this? The father should want to be with the boy. There's family everywhere. Why -- the father is allowed to come here. Immigration's given a visa, right? Why doesn't he just come?

LEVING: Well, this is a very complicated case. And who knows? Maybe the father may not have the freedom to come here. But that isn't the issue. The issue is what is in the best interests of helping this boy get through a horrible trauma. This boy just watched his mother drown. This boy is grieving. This boy needs stability. And how can this boy get the psychological and emotional stability he needs to get through this grieving process? (CROSSTALK)

Through familiarity -- let me talk. Through familiarity. And how can he get that familiarity? By being with his biological father, because he recognizes his biological father as his primary caretaker who...


KING: Georgina, can...


BERNSTEIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) political reality, Larry, to believe that Elian could be treated in a -- in a -- without exploitation.

KING: But Roger, you can't ask Elian, right? A 6-year-old is going to make the decision on who gave him candy today, right? I mean, we know that.

BERNSTEIN: We understand that. But the point is the guidelines provide if a person is not of the age where they can speak that other people may speak on their behalf. Experts may speak on their behalf. Psychological...

KING: But Immigration denied that, right?

BERNSTEIN: Immigration...

KING: Do you expect -- do you think the attorney general...

BERNSTEIN: Immigration...

KING: Roger, you've got to let me finish the question.

BERNSTEIN: Go ahead.

KING: Do you think the attorney general might overrule?

BERNSTEIN: I think the attorney general should certainly overrule. We have provided her with regulations that the INS is not abiding by.

When a person comes into this country, a minor, they have the right if there is -- the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the minor. If they -- if in any way they say they're afraid, they should be given a hearing.

KING: Let me tell our audience. We have a complete program planned tonight on stalking. We're going to do that at the bottom of the hour. But obviously, this deserves more attention. We intend to give it more attention.

We thank our guests. Reverend -- Senator McCain is standing by in New Hampshire with his comments on this touchy, tough issue, and we plan to do more on it. We do have a stalking issue coming at the bottom of the hour with four prominent guests to discuss it. So I'm going to talk to Senator McCain. We thank our guests. We will do more on this. We'll take a break, come back with Senator McCain and get into his thoughts. Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Senator John McCain. He is a candidate for his party's nomination for the presidency. And he is the United States senator from Arizona. He appears here tonight as a senator and a father.

This is, I'm sure you'll agree, Senator, a dilemma?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I don't think so, Larry. You know, I was just thinking...

KING: A father and a child is not a dilemma?

MCCAIN: I was just thinking while I was listening to your other guests -- they have a saying -- a slogan at the Statue of Liberty. It says: "Send me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free," yearning to breathe free. That's what Elian's mother was doing when she literally sacrificed her life so that her son could breathe free. And she gave her life so that he might have freedom.

I don't know why his father didn't know about it or anybody else in the communist hierarchy didn't know about it. But clearly, this young man deserves freedom. He deserves not to be sent back to a totalitarian, oppressive, repressive government.

KING: All right. And what...

MCCAIN: And -- and finally, could I -- could I just mention...

KING: Sure.

MCCAIN: He is a young man who I think deserves that opportunity. And only criminals, only criminals so far have ever been sent back to Cuba.

KING: What, senator, does the father deserve?

MCCAIN: I think the father deserves the ability to come to the United States. I don't know why he hasn't. And I wish that he would be able to do that. But this young man deserves to grow up in a free and open society and have the bounties and beauties of freedom rather than living in a country where Fidel Castro has decided that their young women would sell themselves in order to have hard currency for his regime to stay in power.

KING: So then you -- in a sense, you would encourage children to run away from their parents in oppressed countries, get on boats any way you can, get over here, and we'll take you in. Forget your mother or your father, get here.

MCCAIN: If children want to achieve freedom, which they attempted to do -- that's why they built the Berlin Wall, Larry. That's why we all know that if Castro ever let them loose, there would be a sign that said, "Last one out turn out the lights."

KING: What if the father is...

MCCAIN: I think the people deserve freedom. It's the most precious of all commodities.

KING: What if the father is a lover of Cuba, likes Fidel, likes where he lives, likes the country and wants his son?

MCCAIN: If he is that way, he is one in a few million and then he's part of the communist hierarchy. We all know that -- we saw at the Mariel boat lift when Castro let people leave, they left in -- by the hundreds of thousands.

KING: Would you...

MCCAIN: Look, this is a cruel, oppressive, repressive government that has condemned their people to poverty. You know that -- why doesn't Castro empty out his political prisoners? Why doesn't he allow a free election? Because he knows he'd be out in a New York minute.

Look, young people -- Andy Grove, the head of Intel, left by himself as a young teenager from a communist country and escaped from behind the Iron Curtain. Ask Andy if he thinks he should have stayed with his father or come to the land of opportunity. There's nothing more precious than freedom.

KING: By the way, John, would you say -- would you say the same thing if this were a Chinese boy with a father in China?

MCCAIN: Sure. Yes indeed.

KING: Kosovo boy with a boy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia?

MCCAIN: Yes, sir.

KING: Any oppressive -- boy in North Korea?

MCCAIN: North Korea more than anything, because the chances of staying alive aren't very good.

KING: All right. Any country in -- any country in the world that in your opinion has a despotic regime, including China...

MCCAIN: Yes, sir.

KING: ... we should keep that child if the child got here in these circumstances?

MCCAIN: Especially if the mother died -- died! -- gave her very life trying to bestow freedom on that child. I think -- I don't understand why that isn't put into this equation. KING: What -- why -- so Immigration, though, they've got to rule on the ruling, right? If they deem him a fit father, maybe they'd have no course -- no other course but to go this way? Is that possible?

MCCAIN: But strange enough -- but strangely enough, as you know, as I mentioned, only criminals have been returned to Cuba. During the Cold War, there was a Ukrainian boy, of Russian Ukrainian parents, and they tried to bring him back behind the Iron Curtain. He sued and was able to gain his freedom. I wonder if that isn't some sort of precedent.

As you know, I'm not a lawyer, but I mean, humanity dictates that the real option is to allow the father to come freely to the United States.

KING: And that would be your personal request tonight. We're seen in Cuba. Let the father come here?

MCCAIN: Absolutely, and no reprisals or threats against other members of the family who will remain behind, which is a common action on the part of Fidel Castro and his thugs.

KING: So there's no doubt in your mind that you're urging then -- I don't want to put words in your mouth. You're urging Attorney General Reno to overturn this decision?

MCCAIN: Absolutely. In the name of freedom and democracy, and the opportunity to live in, as I say, in the most bountiful and beautiful nation in the world, which so many people have achieved in getting away from totalitarian governments.

KING: Thanks, Senator. We look to call upon you again in many areas.

MCCAIN: Thank you, Larry, it's great to be with you.

KING: Always good seeing you, Senator John McCain.

When we come back, the problem of stalking, and what to do about it. Right after this.


KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

Joining us now from Los Angeles, Teresa Saldana, the actress who was herself a victim of stalking. Also Andrea Evans, who appears on CBS's "The Bold and the Beautiful," a stalking victim. Marcia Clark, the famed prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial, who successfully prosecuted Robert Bardo. He was convicted of murdering actress Rebecca Schaeffer ten years ago, and we'll discuss how that case spurred anti-stalking legislation in California and elsewhere. And joining us here in Washington is John Douglas, the former FBI profiler. He's written many books, the most recent of which is "Obsession," published two years ago by Scribners, about stalkers, domestic violence, and rape cases.

First, by definition, Marcia, legally, what is stalking?

MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTOR IN REBECCA SCHAEFFER MURDER TRIAL: Well, it depends on how -- that's such a good point, actually. Stalking people -- think of it as somebody who is following them around, and somebody who is lurking around, and always being where the other person is. That is indeed stalking.

Another aspect of it, and one that we have legally defined as a crime, is defined as a terrorist threat, which is the ability to communicate threats and impending danger, and the intent to inflict impending danger, on a victim, on a chosen victim.

KING: That makes...

CLARK: And that would qualify also.

KING: All right.

John, can I follow someone tomorrow everywhere they go, keeping a pace behind them, making no threats of any kind, just follow them? Can I?

JOHN DOUGLAS, FORMER FBI PROFILER: No, I don't think you can. It would be harassment. I mean, you don't have to have a -- you don't have to have a verbal type of threat. If your -- if the perception is that you're putting fear in this person, this person fears the behavior of you stalking them, following them...

KING: You can stop that?

DOUGLAS: Sure, you can stop that.

KING: Theresa, can you briefly tell us again -- we were going to do an hour tonight, and we are limited to a half hour -- you were attacked by a man named Arthur Jackson in 1982, who stabbed you 18 times. Did you know Arthur Jackson?

THERESA SALDANA, ACTRESS: I did not know Arthur Jackson. I didn't know anything about him. I was an actress, and I didn't know anything about him until he contacted my manager Selma Rubin a couple of days before the attack, and then I was stabbed.

KING: When he contacted her, what did -- there he is. When he contacted her, what did he want?

SALDANA: He was -- he was portraying to Selma Rubin that he was various people. He claimed to be someone who assisted Martin Scorsese, the director, who I had worked with. He claimed to be various people in the show-business industry, and he basically tried to trick her into giving my address. Instead, he tricked a family member of mine into giving my actual address. And when I called the police -- at that time because so little was known about stalking and these kind of threats, which were so real and are so real -- the police advised me to do nothing, and they figured it was just a harmless crush or a harmless fan.

KING: And he was -- would you guess -- do we know he was obsessed with you?

SALDANA: Yes, we know he was obsessed. He remains obsessed to this day.

KING: In prison?

SALDANA: And in fact, he's -- he's not in prison. He's in a mental-health facility in England, and it's highly subjective as to whether he will or will not be released in his life time.

KING: You still fear him?

SALDANA: Do I fear him? I fear him not...

KING: Yes, if he got out you would fear him?

SALDANA: If he were out I would be fearful of him, yes, very much so.

KING: Andrea Evans, now on CBS's "The Bold and the Beautiful," had to give up her role on "One Life to Live" 10 years ago. What happened? You will not tell us the name of your stalker, by the way -- why not?

ANDREA EVANS, ACTRESS: I would rather not give him the press that so many stalkers do this kind of thing to achieve, and in my case...

KING: So he was not charged? He was not -- there was no criminal case?

EVANS: He was mentally incompetent to stand trial. I couldn't prosecute him.

KING: What happened to you, Andrea?

EVANS: Well, basically, I was terrorized by this man forever. He saw me on television. He became obsessed. He -- at times when he -- when I refused to see him or whatever, at one point he slashed his wrists on the front steps of the studio where I was working. He would send hateful mail. Basically made my life very uncomfortable, especially because I had no law to protect me and could not have him put away until he harmed me, which is what I was informed by the police.

KING: And how did he harm -- did he harm you in the end?

EVANS: Only emotionally. He never physically harmed me. We did come face to face on a number of occasions, but I was fortunate enough to get away.

KING: How then were you able to have him committed? EVANS: I could only have him committed in the state of New York where this took place for 60 to 90 days at a time. Then he would be released and come after me again.

KING: Where is he now?

EVANS: I don't exactly know nor do I want to.

KING: But are you worried? Do you worry daily that he could come back into your life?

EVANS: I don't worry daily, no, and I have not heard from him in a while. But I think when something like this happens to you, it's always in the back of your mind. There's always a fear. But I think you have to find a way to go on with your life, which I have done again. As you mentioned, I am back working on CBS right now.

KING: And congratulations.

Marcia, is this a tough general prosecution? Yes, I mean, obviously murder isn't. But is this -- if you stalk someone, if you make threats but don't do anything about them, is it tough to put them away?

CLARK: Not anymore, thank goodness. At least in California I can say that we have a very good stalking law that prohibits terrorist threats or making threats of danger, impending danger to a person, whether you intend to carry them out or not. The important thing being that the threat appear to be serious, appear to be one that you intend to carry out, and that the target of the threat is indeed put in fear. And with all of those elements shown...

KING: And what can the penalty be?

CLARK: I'm sorry?

KING: What can the penalty be? If convicted.

CLARK: It's what we call a wobbler. It can either be a misdemeanor or a felony state prison sentence, depending on the severity of the conduct.

But I would say what Andrea is talking about, you know, in denying the publicity to the stalker, is an important thing if it can be accomplished. Obviously, Theresa could not have done that in her case.

KING: Yes.

CLARK: But that is what they're looking for, Larry, they're looking to become famous by association.

KING: Yes.

John, isn't a lot of stalking, lovers who are turned down, boyfriends, husbands, and ex-wives? DOUGLAS: Right, that is the majority of the cases in this country. At any given moment in this country, we have over 200,000 people who are being stalked. At the end of the year we'll have about 1.4 million people who are being stalked.

KING: Being stalked?

DOUGLAS: Being stalked.

KING: What percentage of the stalkers are male?

DOUGLAS: Eighty percent. Eighty percent are male, and very, very few are the types of cases that we're talking about right here.

KING: That's rare, what we are hearing?

DOUGLAS: That's rare, the celebrity-type stalking. The problem is today, I mean, if you go on -- I looked yesterday on some of the Web sites, and some of the actresses today they have their own Web sites. You can have chats with these actresses, they'll sent you autographed photographs of themselves. You can hire a PI out in California or anywhere else and they can gather intelligence information on these particular celebrities. So...

KING: You can communicate where in the past you couldn't?

DOUGLAS: That's right. It's very, very easy.

KING: Does that reduce the stalking effect?

DOUGLAS: No, it doesn't, no, it doesn't, It increases...

KING: Increases?

DOUGLAS: ... increases the stalking effect.

But the everyday cases, everyday we will pick up...

KING: What's a typical case?

DOUGLAS: Typical case is, it's a domestic type of case. It's a relationship between a husband, a wife, a boyfriend, girlfriend, a live-in lover, then there's a breakup here. But what's interesting about the offender, the offender is a real control freak. He usually enters into the relationship like Prince Charming on the white horse, and he showers the potential victim with gifts, with flowers and with candy. But then he begins to change. He begins to become very controlling. And some of the cases I have had, the subject wanted to have book -- keep book on his girlfriend to see how many miles she put on the car, how much money she spent. And then finally there's this abusiveness, and if a woman...

KING: Becomes obsessive?

DOUGLAS: Becomes obsessive, and if the woman stays in the relationship, in the research I was doing at the University of Pennsylvania, now -- where the woman now is being slapped around, being manually strangled.

KING: Taking it.

DOUGLAS: If the woman does not get out of that relationship, you're going to be working a homicide case in the future.

KING: We'll come back with more on this -- at any time now -- how many people can be stalked tonight?

DOUGLAS: About 200,000.

KING: Whew.

We'll be right back on LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.


KING: Marcia Clark, was -- was -- to be direct, was O.J. Simpson a stalker?

CLARK: No, not in the classic sense that you're talking about here, although in some sense, yes. When you talk about a stalker in his context, it's what you guys were just talking about: the more average -- I hate to say average in this context -- but you know, the more mundane boyfriend stalking girlfriend, ex-husband stalking wife. In that sense, I believe he did to some extent, yes.

KING: But that can lead to violence, John, as well, right? And it can lead against actresses or against boyfriend-girlfriend?

DOUGLAS: Sure. I assisted Daniel Petrocelli in the civil case in that, and I went through the entire case, and to me, it had the classic signs of stalking. Remember, he was watching through a window of Nicole having sex with some guy on the couch. He beat her around. He slapped her. He strangled her. These are the precursors for future violence.

KING: Theresa, are there things, as you think back, you could have done?

SALDANA: Yes, I think that there are many things that the average person can do.

KING: Like?

SALDANA: And I think that's very, very important. I think too much is accessible. Of course, we have the Internet and everything else. But for example, when you go to a supermarket and someone asks for your number, you don't have to give out your number. You don't have to give out all of this pertinent information about you. You don't have to share so much information with other people.

And I know many -- I know quite a few friends in my own circle who are not in the entertainment industry who have had problems with stalker-like people. And I think the key here is to maintain your privacy as much as possible, to keep things to yourself, to encourage your children, your kids to do the same, to not be so much giving of information.

Simple information can lead to very deadly, grisly acts. And I think it's important that whatever field you're in or not in, that you maintain your privacy and encourage your family to do the same thing. That's a way of thwarting potential attacks.

KING: By the way, Theresa, are you not working again?

SALDANA: Am I not working again? Well, that's the actor's saga. I am actually working again. I have a movie coming out called "Carlo's Wake" with Rita Moreno and Martin Landau.

KING: Oh great.

SALDANA: And I am back. I am back.

KING: Good. Andrea, what would you add to what Theresa said about what you can do about it?

Well, I'm in total agreement. I think when what happened to Theresa and I happened we weren't as aware of what to do. Due to programs such as this -- and I know our security men we have worked with: Gavin De Becker, who gave me tons of ideas on how to keep myself private. And she is so right.

And every person out there, particularly women, should not give out their Social Security number, their phone number, any information. Do whatever you can to remain as private as possible.

KING: But the stalkee, John, is a victim of this, right?

DOUGLAS: That's right. They're, obviously, a victim of this. And once -- once you're in this situation, again particularly in domestic type of cases -- these are the everyday folks, and they're blue-collar, white-collar -- you have to -- you have to make a decision. You have to pass responsibility on to the victim. You have to get out of this relationship.

If you don't get out of this relationship, it's going to get worse and it's going to become much more violent.

KING: Marcia, can you stop a stalker?

CLARK: Well, no, you can't stop them...

KING: Do you thing?

CLARK: ... physically stop them. But you know, Gavin De Becker does have a number of good points that he makes about things that you can do if you feel you are being stalked. Among them, varying your routines, never going out alone at night by yourself, that kind of thing. And he has them in his books to look at.

But you can't really stop somebody from following you if they're inclined to do that.

KING: Yes.

CLARK: What you can do is be very careful and very judicious about the information you give out.

I agree with what's been said, Larry. You know how many times you're in a supermarket line or in a line for any store, and you're trying to buy something and they're trying to compile a mailing list, they ask you your phone number. It's not the clerk you worry about. It's the guy standing behind you in line that you've got to worry about, and think about that you don't have to give your number, you don't have to be on their mailing list. Just say no.

KING: What a weird way to live, John. I mean...

DOUGLAS: Well, it's very difficult. In fact, the research I do -- and I've done some research with as a senior analyst -- it's not just these types of cases. Stalking comes in the form of child molesters interviewed, rapists, as well as serial offenders. And again, many times the precursor is stalking.

KING: We'll ask Theresa and Andrea if they live in fear generally as they do normal things every day. We'll try to get some calls in too. Don't go away.


KING: Andrea, John thinks it might be a mistake for actresses to have Web sites. Think so?

EVANS: No, I don't. You know, you can still maintain privacy and have a Web site. I have a Web site. I'm on television every day. I have a jewelry company. I'm writing a book about this whole experience. You don't have to stop your life or stop being public. I don't think a Web site is any problem at all.

And you have fans and good fans that don't stalk you but keep in touch.

KING: Then what do you do, John?

DOUGLAS: Well, 99 percent of the fans...

KING: Are fine.

DOUGLAS: ... are fine. It's just the one percenter. And that's -- that's the problem.

KING: But they've got to live in -- Theresa, do you live in daily fear?

SALDANA: I do not live in daily fear, not at all. In fact, I live with a lot of joy, a lot of life, and a lot gratitude that I am here alive. And there is another side to stalking. I think the most important thing is that the person who is being stalked emerges both alive and triumphant and happy to be at the other end of the situation. With the laws that we have, particularly in California these days, you can survive being stalked and you can live to have a happy, healthy life again. And that's -- that's the message I want to give people, is that we can beat this.

KING: John, do want them to be more worried?

DOUGLAS: Well, I think they're at a strict advantage here. They -- they can hire bodyguards. They have the money, they have the resources. But the everyday victims of stalking -- 80 percent of these women who are being abused, and being violated sexually, physically, emotionally, who are trapped in these relationships, they just can't get out.

KING: Marcia, have you ever been stalked?


CLARK: Not that I'm aware of. I don't think so.

KING: One would gather, since you haven't, it would be a horrible experience.

CLARK: Yes, I would definitely think it would be a horrible experience. And I mean, speaking to Theresa and speaking to Andrea, you don't get a sense of -- I mean, they really are such survivors. They're so strong, and they've really muscled through it, which is a beautiful thing. But I can imagine what it must be like to know that your every step is being dogged by somebody...

KING: Yes, wow.

CLARK: ... and you have to worry constantly where you go.

KING: Do parole boards let them out? Are they good con artists, John?

DOUGLAS: I just came out of Trenton Penitentiary last week, and I was talking to a few of these characters there, and the problem is that the people who do the assessments of these characters, they don't really look at the crime. They rely on self-reporting, on the interview.

KING: They hear them out.

DOUGLAS: You hoodwink them. In fact, it just drives me crazy. In fact, I saw an interview you were doing, too, with David Berkowitz a few weeks back, because I have interviewed Berkowitz, and it comes across, as you probably know, as very, very charming. He's got...

KING: Warden said he's the nicest guy in prison.

DOUGLAS: Nicest guy. His life is controlled, a guy even like David Berkowitz, I mean, who was a stalker, who was stalking his victims in New York City. If you asked David Berkowitz the question -- I was hoping you would do this -- What profession would you love to have, if you could do it again? Usually the professions are law enforcement, a minister or some counseling profession. Why? Because of power, control.

KING: But he did say he wouldn't let himself out. Berkowitz said he would not let himself out of prison.

DOUGLAS: That's good. Hopefully he won't -- hopefully the parole board will be convinced.

KING: Do they want jobs where they can do it?

DOUGLAS: That right, where they can be in control of others.

KING: We'll get a break and be back with more on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

The Doles on Friday.

Don't go away.


KING: Let's get a call in.

Tulsa, Oklahoma, hello.

CALLER: Yes, what kind of protection is available for someone...

KING: I can't hear you. What, sir?

CALLER: ... stalked by a vindictive spouse.

KING: Hold it. Turn your radio -- turn your television down, sir. All right, now repeat the question.

CALLER: OK, what kind of protection...

KING: We're getting a echo chamber.

All right, can -- all right, I think the gist of it is, how do we protect -- if a person is being stalked and they call up the police or they call up the prosecutor's office, what can the law enforcement do if someone is bugging you, calling you every day, making idle threats, not death threats, but you're going to come back know or I am going to get you!

CLARK: You're talking to me?

KING: Yes -- what do you do?

CLARK: You can call the -- first of all, you call the police. You report the threat. You give every bit of information that you can give about the person -- where they saw you, what they look like, their description, every action that they took -- and then you get a temporary restraining order. And that's the beginning of it, you know, and that's the way it starts. You have a temporary restraining order. You can get that on your own in court. You don't have to go in with a DA. You don't have to go in with any lawyer; do it yourself in a court of law. If that order is then violated, he can then be arrested.

KING: Take action, John, you agree with that?

DOUGLAS: You can take action. But you have to be careful with these orders. I had a case where a woman was stabbed in the rest, and right through the restraining order, right in her chest, by her husband.

KING: So what do you do?

DOUGLAS: So you have to be careful. Every case has to be assessed on its own merits.

KING: You mean, in some cases, it's stupid to get...

DOUGLAS: It may be the wrong thing to do, particularly if you have a restraining order then you're in a state where it's a misdemeanor. So what is it? It's not even worth the...

KING: Houston, hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Yes.

CALLER: My question is -- I thought of this after George Harrison personally got attacked. What are the stalking rates in the U.S. compared to other countries?

KING: Do you know, John?

DOUGLAS: It is the same. We have 200,000 here. But per capita is still...

KING: It's a worldwide thing.

DOUGLAS: It's a worldwide thing. There's really no cultural differences here. We really see it everywhere, in domestic cases particularly.

KING: Teresa, you're -- obviously you're not paranoid. Are you wary, though, of situations?

SALDANA: I'm very cautious, and I -- because I also work with Gavin De Becker and I've also talk with other experts, I'm very cautious about my life and those of my immediate others, my child, et cetera, however, I don't let it overcome me or become an obstacle in my life, and that's the most important thing. The critical thing is to be able to take action, to do the things that make you feel safe and make you actually become safe, but not to let it take over your life, because at the point at which it overrules your life. and upsets your life and puts it out of balance, the stalker, or the person who is after you, literally, is the person who wins.

In this case, if you're the person who's being stalked, there are so many concrete things you can do with the law and with other personal advisements and still maintain a feeling of enjoying life.

KING: Andrea, are you wary?

EVANS: Of course, like Teresa, but I also -- I take every precaution. And there are so many things to do, so much advice you can get from experts and legally, and -- you know, I did make the mistake of letting the stalker rule my life for a while and getting out of the public eye, but I am thankful to "Bold and Beautiful" for having me back and where I can be in a position to be on your show to talk about this.

KING: Now, Marcia, is the law going to act if called?

CLARK: Meaning that, if you call the police? Yes.

KING: They are going to pay attention?

CLARK: Yes, in California especially. I can not speak for every state. I can speak for California, where the sensitivity and the awareness of the problem is so heightened. And there's even a team that's specifically devoted to prosecuting these kind of cases.

KING: Oh, good.

CLARK: So when you call and you report a stalking situation, they're going to be right there for you, yes.

KING: When do you call the FBI, John? We only have 30 seconds.

DOUGLAS: If it's an interstate type of thing, you know, interstate communication.

KING: Someone bugging you long distance?

DOUGLAS: Yes, Long distance, or they come across state lines and stalking you; that'll be an FBI...

KING: They go right on it?

DOUGLAS: Yes, they'll get right on it.

KING: Thank you all very much. We're sorry we didn't have more time, We'll do more on this as well.

Teresa Saldana, Andrea Evans, Marcia Clark, John's Douglas. John's most recent book is "Obsession," published by Scribners.

Stay tuned for CNN NEWSSTAND: choosing your child's sex. It can happen. What about it, morally and ethically? That's next.

I'm Larry King. Good-night.



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