Crossfire

Should the Confederate Flag Be an Issue in Campaign 2000?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARY MATALIN, CO-HOST: Tonight, the flap over the Confederate flag. It's a big issue in South Carolina and Georgia, but should it be such a big issue in campaign 2000?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the Crossfire, in Des Moines, Iowa, Harvard University Professor Cornell West, a Bill Bradley supporter, and in Atlanta, Republican Congressman Bob Barr, national co-chairman of the Forbes campaign.

MATALIN: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. First it was ethanol subsidies for farmers in Iowa. Now it's the Confederate flag fracas. Every four years, the presidential primaries shine their bright national lights on obscure state and local issues. But this local flap looms extra large over the national contest because South Carolina is a pivotal state in the GOP primary and blacks a pivotal constituency for the Democrats. Everybody's weighing in at every opportunity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BRADLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It offends me. It should be taken down immediately and absolutely. We should move forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's a decision for the people of South Carolina to make.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERT GORE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It should be removed from the state capitol building in South Carolina and from any government institution so as to make them welcoming to all of our citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe that it's a symbol of heritage. I also believe that it should be settled without interference from presidential candidates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATALIN: Taking advantage of the national attention, the NAACP rallied 46,000 at the South Carolina capitol yesterday and are urging a boycott. Jesse Jackson wants to extend that boycott to Georgia for the Super Bowl and is urging players to take a stand.

Is the Confederate flag a source of shame or emblem of heritage? Should the primary calendar dictate the presidential agenda? And should national contestants dictate state policy?

Bill.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Congressman Barr, good evening.

REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: Good evening, Bill.

PRESS: Whatever the Confederate battle flag once meant for most Americans, today it's a symbol of slavery, a symbol of racism, something that all Americans are against. Why should that flag be flying over any state capitol in the United States of America?

BARR: Well, any state has the right to fly its flag over its state capitol, and if it elects to through the voice of the people to fly their flags, then it's up to those people. What is really shameful, the shame in all of this, is you have people, Bill, like Jesse Jackson, who can commandeer and command tremendous press coverage and prestige, who can be doing so much to help crime among the black community, who could help welfare mothers. He's wasting his time in this ridiculous effort, worrying about what flag flies ore the Georgia Gold Dome or state capitol in South Carolina.

I say shame on these people for using what could be very, very productive effort and power on their part, pursuing a nonsensical matter that's none their business and is not going to help one family, one young black man who might be going to prison that Mr. Jackson might otherwise be able to help.

PRESS: Well, Congressman Barr, I am sure it's up to them to decide what issues they're going to pursue, just like you once decided to pursue impeaching the president of the United States before we ever heard of Monica Lewinsky.

BARR: That's because I thought there were more important issues.

PRESS: But back to this -- back to the issue of states' rights.

BARR: Yes, sir.

PRESS: I know you wouldn't stand by if a state decide they wanted to put a swastika up or something. I mean, there are national standards. And as you know, this flag went back up in South Carolina in 1962, not as a symbol of the Confederacy; it went up as sort of a Jim Crow rallying point, when South Carolina was saying, we're going to defy the Supreme Court's decisions on integration. You know, again, don't you think that's repugnant to what Americans stand for and doesn't deserve that sort of place of honor on the top of a state capitol?

BARR: Different people are repulsed by different things. I might not like your tie. That doesn't give me the right to go and pass legislation to get rid of it.

I looked at, in anticipation of this program tonight, Bill, I looked at some of the flags for some of our sister states, and it wouldn't surprise me if this movement against the flag of Georgia and South Carolina moves forward, and there are other states as well that might have offensive symbols on them to some people. Are the Indians going to start objecting to Oklahoma's flag because it has symbols of Indian heritage? Are the animal rights activists going to get mad at California and demand that its flag change, because there are animals depicted thereon?

This is absolutely nonsensical. It's a waste of time. And again, I wish that these leaders would use their efforts for good and productive measures in the community, not this.

PRESS: When and if those things happen, we will talk about it.

But I agree with you that different things mean different things to different people. But Congressman Barr, for millions of African Americans certainly, and I think for millions of other Americans, this Confederate battle flag stands for the worst part of this. It stands for days when we treated some people as certainly not equal. We kept them in slavery. We kept them in chains. If for that reason only, these African Americans are Americans like all the rest of us, if it offends them, isn't for that reason only a good reason for taking down this flag?

BARR: It doesn't matter to me whether somebody from California is offended by the flag of Georgia. It is our flag. The people of our state have elected, through their representatives, to have this flag represent our state. And whether George Pataki wants to take it down in Albany as he did one time or whether somebody else wants to take it down, they have no right dictating to me what the flag of my state ought to be depicted as than I have to tell them what their state's flag ought to depict.

MATALIN: All right, Brother West, welcome once again to CROSSFIRE. It's nice of you to join us from Des Moines there, and we...

PROFESSOR CORNEL WEST, SUPPORTER OF BILL BRADLEY: Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure.

MATALIN: ... enjoyed you earlier today.

Now let me -- you've heard this outrage from your other brother here, Bill Press. And as we watched the black-brown debate last night, and as I understand it, the Democratic position on the South Carolina flag, the Confederate flag, is that it is a symbol of slavery and racism.

So let me ask you about the record of President Clinton, whom all the Democrats agree is the champion of race. When he served as governor for 12 years of Arkansas, he designated a star in the Arkansas flag as a symbol of the Confederacy. He memorialized, through proclamation, Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president. And in Arkansas, the Saturday before Easter is Confederate Flag Day. The president said today that the South Carolina flag should come down, yet when he had 12 years as governor in a position to do something about taking down this symbol of slavery and racism, not only did he not do that, he memorialized it and celebrated the Confederacy. Can you explain that to me?

WEST: Well, I don't want to defend President Bill Clinton here. But I think, one, we have to acknowledge that -- I mean, Congressman Barr supported the impeachment of President Clinton, because in his view, President Clinton violated the Constitution. The flag is not just a symbol of white supremacy, not just a symbol of organized hatred, not just a symbol of institutional terrorism, it's also a symbol of violent insurrection against a U.S. government. It was actually calling for the death of the precious experiment called America in the name of its Southern way of life.

Now we're a very unique country. We had one Civil War, 620,000 fellow human beings dead. This is not simply a question of race. This is a question -- and this is something that Bill Bradley understands so very well and one of the reasons why he is the visionary presidential candidate -- we need symbols that bring us together. That doesn't mean we forget our history. The great William Faulkner, the great genius from Oxford, Mississippi, he understood the Southern way of life. He appreciated elements of the Southern heritage, but he also knew he had a deep loyalty to American Democracy, and there was a real chance that the death of American democracy would have taken place if the Confederacy had won.

And the black people are not just calling for our hurt and suffering; this has to do with the American Democratic experiment as a whole -- how precious do we really take the Constitution and Declaration of Independence?

MATALIN: This, Professor West, is why I so enjoy listening to you and you've gotten right to my point: bringing people together.

WEST: Precisely.

MATALIN: And when Democratic candidates charge all Republicans with bigotry and racism because they happen to disagree with them politically, that certainly doesn't bring us together. Furthermore, the Democrats are -- I don't know who they're speaking for, because when the Democratic governor of Georgia was asked today about Reverend Jackson's extension of the boycott to Georgia, that same Democratic Governor Barnes said: "I'm saying what I've said all along: We have a lot of issues on our plate, and this is just not one that's in the mix right now." So is this an example of the kind of demagoguery that Democratic presidential candidates are bringing on -- to the campaign?

WEST: Well no, I wouldn't call it demagoguery. I just think they're trying to keep alive the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr., who recognized that the flag itself was flown with the onset of Jim Crow in 1895 in Mississippi, with the Southern Manifesto in 1956, times in which we're not simply trying to improve the plight of people of African descent, we're trying to enrich the notion of American citizenship. And This is very important, because it affects each and every one of us as Americans. And so yes, Bill Bradley understands we must be brought together, but we must be brought together under democratic ideals that could have been crushed by the Confederate army.

BARR: Well, professor, I think one...

PRESS: Congressman Barr, go ahead.

BARR: Thank you, Bill.

One thing that sets you and Bill Bradley apart from Martin Luther King is the fact that he recognized that we needed to bring people together through working substantively on substantive matters. He didn't waste his time, as Bill Bradley and you are wasting your time, worrying about a flag. He was out there in the communities helping the workers of America, helping the families, helping to reduce crime, doing something actually tangible and not worrying about symbols of different states.

That's why he was such a great American and Bill Bradley is not in that class.

WEST: No, no. Well, I agree with your insight and disagree with your conclusion. One, Martin Luther King Jr. did understand we have to work on the ground. We're not fetishizing the flag. The issue here is not simply taking the flag down. We need to take the white supremacy, the hatred and bigotry away from our hearts, from out institutions and structures.

Bill Bradley is on the ground doing that.

BARR: Georgia's flag -- Georgia's flag has nothing to do with that. Georgia's flag is supported by Republicans and Democrats alike in our state. And it has nothing to do with hatred. It simply represents the state of Georgia as a unifying force.

WEST: Bill Bradley and myself are on the ground working to try to strip the hatred and bigotry in the hearts and institutions and the minds and structures of this society. And that's a challenge that we make to the Republican Party.

BARR: Well, we're out there trying to really help families, not worrying about what Georgia's or Oklahoma's or California's flag...

PRESS: All right, gentlemen... WEST: But Congressman Barr, you're not convincing the black community that this is the case, right? And black voters are highly intelligent in the exercise of their judgment. What's going on then?

PRESS: Professor West -- Professor West, Congressman Barr, good exchange. It will continue. We're just going to have to take a break, and when we come back, Southern California -- South Carolina is not alone. How about Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia? What ought to happen to those state flags? We'll get into that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Of course, South Carolina is not the only state to have the Confederate flag. The battle banner is also featured in state flags of Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi and Georgia, where the Reverend Jesse Jackson threatens an economic boycott until the flag is changed. Will a boycott work? Is the flag being unfairly attacked?

Our debate continues with Republican Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia, a supporter of Steve Forbes, and Harvard University Professor Cornel West, who's supporting Bill Bradley -- Mary.

MATALIN: Professor West, we have been talking about how the flag is a symbol, and we all agree, those of us who practice democracy -- and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) out there in Des Moines -- that symbols are important in a democracy. But let's talk about something real.

The Reverend Al Sharpton, whom Mrs. Clinton made her pilgrimage to yesterday, Al Sharpton as part of his buy black campaign in Harlem, only a couple of years ago, in a rage against Korean groceries because we shouldn't buy from people who don't look like us, a disaster was averted only because the police found 19 gasoline bombs on the roof of a Korean grocery. Not -- disaster was not averted on another of his campaigns where a Jewish clothing store was burnt down and seven employees were killed.

Last night, Bill Bradley was talking about symbols that offend him while defending Al Sharpton, saying we should respect him and give him room to grow. Should we rail against symbols and then say we should respect things that really hurt?

WEST: Well, no indeed. I think what Bill Bradley was saying was that as fellow citizens and human beings, we're all in need of development and growth. And when he talked about Al Sharpton, he wanted to accent the positive contributions that Al Sharpton has made, who has run for mayor and received 86 percent of the black vote and one out of four white votes in the primary, and at the same time critical of Sharpton when he disagrees. I think this is how it ought to be across the board: that I should be able to acknowledge insight of Congressman Barr and at the same time I should be able to see certain limitations that I feel he has. But he's still a human being. He's still a fellow citizen.

I will not demonize Congressman Barr. I certainly will not demonize Al Sharpton. And Al Sharpton happens to be actually a very good friend, and I'm quite aware of the love in his heart on an intimate level. So that the demonizing must have no role in American society.

MATALIN: All right. But the senator was saying last night that we should take action on things that offend us. Let me -- this is just a baby thing. The flag offends him. You know what offends me and a lot of Republicans? When gore's campaign manager says that Colin Powell and J.C. Watts would rather take pictures with than feed children.

In essence, what's she's saying is that all Republicans are racist.

WEST: Oh, no. That's ridiculous. And I disagree with the Gore campaign. You don't hear that out of the Bradley campaign, not at all. Why? Because Bill Bradley speaks to human beings as citizens and persons, not as clients and constituencies.

We know that there's conservative and Republican brothers and sisters who have deep compassion. We know there's some who don't.

PRESS: Congressman Bob Barr, you are a man who says what he thinks. I mean, I disagree with almost everything you say, Bob Barr, but I respect you for the fact that you say what you think.

BARR: By the way, I do like your tie.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: Flattery will get you anywhere. I want you now to listen to someone whom I think is talking, unlike you, some real weasel words on this issue about the Confederate flag. Please listen up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't believe it's the role of someone from outside South Carolina and someone running for president to come into this state and tell the people of South Carolina what to do with their business when it comes to the flag.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Now, incidentally, Bob Barr, your man Steve Forbes hasn't done much better on this issue. Isn't that just a huge cop-out on the part of George Bush?

BARR: I mean, no. I mean, what is wrong with standing up and saying, Bill Press, that there are some issues that are national issues that a president will deal with and it's legitimate to ask that presidential candidate about those issues, and other issues that happen to be states' rights issues? There is nothing -- there is nothing wrong with saying states rights are important. That's not a weasel word. That is a very important concept. And you're denigrating it and making fun of it illustrates one of the problems that we have in America today: very little appreciation for or understanding of some of the basic institutions of our representative democracy. And states rights is one of them.

WEST: But what states rights...

PRESS: I'm not -- well, pardon me, professor, just a second here...

WEST: Yes.

PRESS: ... because, Congressman Barr, I'm not going to answer your question. I'm going to let Bob -- Bill Bennett, rather, answer your question, Republican conservative, Mr. Values in this country. Here's what he said about Governor Bush's answer.

Quote: "I think it is a mistake. I think it's a mistake for the other candidates who are not saying much about it either. Of course, it's an issue the state has to decide. A candidate doesn't have a right to decide that, nor does a president, but we have a right to know where people stand on it, and I think they should stand for the removal of that flag."

That's the point -- we have a right to know what the governor thinks about that flag, don't we?

WEST: That's it.

BARR: No, I don't -- I don't think everybody, every candidate for office has to disclose their opinion on every nonsensical thing. No, I disagree with that. What I would like to see...

WEST: But wait...

BARR: ... is I would like to see Mr. Bush's opinions on a national sales tax, for example, or a national flat tax...

PRESS: Professor?

BARR: ... or what are we going to do about the very, very -- what are we going to do about the very high incidence of crime and imprisonment of black youth in this country? Those are real issues, not...

WEST: Oh, but Congressman Barr, Congressman Barr, the issue of racial justice is just as national an issue as the issue of flat tax. This is the problem.

BARR: Yes, but what...

WEST: It's not nonsensical.

BARR: But the flag has nothing to do with that.

WEST: But if...

BARR: Racial justice is a separate, substantive issue. The flag is not.

PRESS: Professor?

WEST: If this -- if the flag symbolizes racial hatred to the descendants of the charred bodies, and wounded souls, and psychic mind -- and scarred minds, then we have to listen to their voices, it seems to me.

BARR: You're -- you're getting metaphysical there, professor.

WEST: No, no, no. This is metaphorical, but metaphors have power.

BARR: For a president -- I don't want a presidential candidate to go out trying to figure out what symbol irritates this group, what symbol irritates another group. Let me get inside the head of this person to see what irritates them. I want to see our candidates, black, white, Republican, Democrat, large, small, whatever it is, talk about the real substantive issues that can have meaning to all of our citizens.

I was on a program recently with Al Sharpton...

MATALIN: Congressman...

BARR: Yes?

MATALIN: Congressman, we can't talk about another program, but we so appreciated your being on ours. Congressman Barr, thank you. And Cornel West, professor of Harvard, thank you.

WEST: Thank you very much.

MATALIN: Good luck to both of you on the campaign trail. And sweet William and I will be back after this quick break with our closing comments. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATALIN: You usually see Robert Novak in this seat, but tomorrow night he'll be in the CROSSFIRE. He's penned a new book, "Completing the Revolution: A Vision for Victory in 2000." You'll be surprised by what he has to say about the Republican Party, and he might be surprised by what Bill and I ask him.

And this important programming note: Your favorite show -- that would be us -- hits the road Sunday with a special edition of CROSSFIRE, 7:30 p.m. Eastern, live from Des Moines, Iowa. And we'll be there Monday the night of the Iowa caucuses. It's happening...

PRESS: I am telling you...

MATALIN: ... and not a minute...

PRESS: ... I am so excited. MATALIN: ... too soon. Any more demagoguery and hypocrisy on the behalf of your ticket, whoever it is going to be. I can't -- it's so perfect, so perfect -- Al Gore out there, Bill Bradley out there, bring down that flag. Bill Clinton, of whom it is said by you all he is a "black man," let that flag stand and commemorated the president of the Confederacy for 12 years. There's a Confederate Flag Day in Arkansas. When they had the chance to really do something, they don't, but they sure like to flap their jaws.

PRESS: The issue is not what Bill Clinton did 12 years ago, forget Whitewater, forget what he did about the Confederate flag. The issue is not even the flag -- you know what the issue is? The issue is leadership. George Bush talks about leadership. I am a leader. Here's the first test of his leadership. Will you do anything about race relations, an important issue, and he won't even take a stand. First test, he flunks it royally.

MATALIN: He has taken a stand.

PRESS: He didn't take a stand. He said leave it up to the people of South Carolina.

MATALIN: He repudiated the ugly remarks.

PRESS: It's a cop-out.

MATALIN: He said it is not what is in his heart -- Bill Clinton was governor and didn't do anything...

PRESS: I don't care. I expect...

MATALIN: ... about it. That's leadership.

PRESS: ... better of George W. Bush. I hope, now that we're 12 years later.

MATALIN: I am glad to hear that Bush is better than Clinton, you heard it here first on...

PRESS: Why doesn't he stand up?

MATALIN: ... the left.

PRESS: Why doesn't he stand up?

From the left...

MATALIN: He stood up.

PRESS: ... I am Bill Press...

MATALIN: He stood up.

PRESS: ... good night from CROSSFIRE -- cop-out.

MATALIN: Not even close. On the right, I am Mary Matalin. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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