Crossfire

Will Michigan's Republican Primary Determine the GOP's Nominee?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Next stop, Michigan and Arizona. Tonight, George W. Bush and John McCain take their campaigns on to tomorrow's key primaries: Will they be the deciding factors? And why did one congressman decide to switch his allegiance from Bush to McCain?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the crossfire, in Boston, Massachusetts Governor Paul Cellucci, a supporter of Governor Bush, and in New York, Congressman Peter King, a John McCain supporter.

PRESS: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE on this Presidents Day.

After a big win for George Bush in South Carolina, it's on to Michigan and Arizona. Favorite son John McCain, of course, holds the edge in Arizona, but Michigan, the real battleground, appears to be an absolute dead heat. Well-aware that tomorrow's primary could decide the Republican nomination once and for all, both candidates crisscrossed the state again today, Bush sticking to his winning message that he's the real reformer, a feisty McCain telling voters "if Governor Bush is a reformer, I'm an astronaut."

McCain picked up another former Bush supporter today, New York Congressman Peter King, but he also discovered how quickly a politician can be jilted by reporters. This week it's George Bush on the cover of both "TIME" and "Newsweek."

And remember those Democrats? Well, Al Gore and Bill Bradley debate tonight in New York City starting at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

But in the crossfire tonight, we stick with that hot GOP race between George Bush and John McCain -- Mary.

MARY MATALIN, CO-HOST: And hot it is. Congressman King, thanks for joining us. Sorry to lose you from the Bush fight. You said you switched because the governor visited a school whose policies you object to.

Now, let me ask you about your new candidate that you support. His national chairman Warren Rudman said Christians are bigoted. His South Carolina chairman, Richard Quinn, who is paid $20,000 a month, advocated the election of David Duke. So let me get this straight. You left a guy who visited one of dozens of schools because he didn't -- and did not agree with their policies, and you're supporting a guy now whose chairman and state chairman hate Christians and advocate David Duke. Explain this to me, Congressman, can you?

REP. PETER KING (R-NY), MCCAIN SUPPORTER: Mary, you have such a beautiful way of phrasing questions. First of all, I have left Governor Bush for a number of reasons. The Bob Jones University was the final one.

But actually, going back to last year when he said that he didn't know whether Jews get into heaven during the debates -- the early debates where he showed really a lack of expertise on foreign policy, where he also said several weeks ago he looked upon the nation of Islam, which is anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, and anti-white, as being an organization which espoused universal principles such as love thy neighbor.

And then finally, yes, the trip to Bob Jones University, which is anti-Catholic and is anti-black, and he went there not just as a campaign stop-in, but he commenced his campaign there, he held hands and sang songs with them. He made that be the centerpiece of his campaign and put his stamp of approval on a school which is anti- Catholic, and as a Catholic I greatly resent that, and as an American and as a Republican I really resent that being infused into the campaign.

Now, as far as Senator Rudman, obviously Senator Rudman's remarks were made in the context of people in the Christian Coalition attacking Colin Powell. As for myself, I have a 100 percent Christian Coalition rating, so I am not going to support anyone who is bigoted. But the fact is, to say that Senator Rudman is in any way bigoted is totally wrong and it's a distortion.

MATALIN: That's not what I am saying, Congressman. What I'm saying is the senator...

KING: What are you saying?

MATALIN: ... not only did not denounce his national chairman and his state chairman, who advocated the election of David Duke, he defended them. Bush did denounce the policies of that school. He's married to a Catholic. His sister-in-law is a Mexican.

I mean, and he -- Governor Reagan as a candidate went to that university. Democratic African-American state legislatures have been there. The current Democratic governor has been there. The -- Lindsey Graham, who was the chairman of McCain's South Carolina effort, got an honorary degree from there. Isn't this a red herring?

KING: No, it's not at all. In fact, Mary, Governor Bush has never denounced the policies. What he says is that he doesn't agree with the policy on interracial dating, and he says that his brother has become a Catholic. That's like saying, you know, some of my best friends are Jews and some of my best friends are blacks. The fact is he had the opportunity when he was there at Bob Jones and didn't say a word in denouncing their policies at all, and as a Republican I find that offensive.

And as a politician, I can just see myself going through neighborhoods in New York this fall when Al Gore is banging us over the head, trying to tell Irish and Italian Catholics, such as Governor Cellucci has of Massachusetts, trying to explain to them why the head of my party -- my candidate for president, if it is Governor Bush, went to a school which believes that the pope should burn in hell, which believes that the pope is the anti-Christ, and which says that Catholicism is a cult.

To me it's just beyond description how in the year 2000 we could be even attending any kind of a school, or going to any school, or giving any type of moral sanction to a school which has these policies.

PRESS: Governor Cellucci, good evening, and thank you for joining us on CROSSFIRE.

Let's stick with Bob Jones for just a second if we can, because the current chancellor of that university, the father of the current president of the university said this about our current -- the current -- I say "our" -- we're both Catholics -- our current Pope John Paul II: "John Paul II is the greatest danger we face today. He is doing more to spread anti-Christ communism than anyone around. The papacy is the religion of the anti-Christ and is a Satanic system."

Now, Governor, tell me, if somebody came into Massachusetts and started spreading that around, or called Catholicism a cult, how far do you think they'd get?

GOV. PAUL CELLUCCI (R), BUSH MASSACHUSETTS CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: Well, I don't think they'd get very far, and I certainly reject that statement. I know that Governor Bush rejects that statement. I think you have to look at the record. Governor Bush is governor of Texas, has had a record of inclusion, of tolerance. He's bringing his campaign everywhere. And he brought it to a school that Ronald Reagan brought his message to, that Bob Dole brought his message to.

I didn't see Congressman King switch from supporting Bob Dole four years ago because Bob Dole went to that university. I think we have to look at the record and, you know, we can't stand by every statement that every -- you know, Senator McCain, even in the debate last week when he was asked about Senator Rudman, he said, "Well, I don't agree with everything Senator Rudman says," and that's natural, and that's the way it should be.

PRESS: Well, Governor, I -- seriously, don't you find it a weak defense? We hear this all the time -- that it was OK for George Bush to go there because after all, Ronald Reagan went there. After all, Lindsey Graham went there. After all, Bob Dole went there.

But as Alan Keyes pointed out in the debate, Governor, George Bush, yes, he went there, and he did nothing -- that day that he went there to repudiate the policies of that university. That is the question, Governor. You know, how can you support someone who goes into that racist institution and not speak up?

CELLUCCI: He repudiated the policies if you listen to what he said.

PRESS: No, he did not.

CELLUCCI: And he repudiated them at the debate last week that was on your TV station. Perhaps you weren't listening. He went there as he went to all parts of South Carolina to deliver the message that he's running on. It's a message that he's a compassionate conservative and that he's a reformer with results. And he delivered that message all over South Carolina just like he'll deliver it all over Michigan.

PRESS: Well, Governor, if you don't repudiate it in front of 6,500 students, what courage does it take to repudiate it a week later on "LARRY KING LIVE"?

CELLUCCI: Well, he did repudiate it. His purpose in going to the university was not to repudiate that policy. His purpose in going was to deliver his message as a candidate for president just like Ronald Reagan and just like Bob Dole and just like candidates for governor, Democrats and Republican in the state of South Carolina have done for many, many years.

MATALIN: OK. Congressman King, this may be the only all- Catholic show we have ever all done together.

(LAUGHTER)

MATALIN: Four Catholics, so let's agree that we all denounce those policies in that anti-Catholic bigotry and move on. The senator did lose. He lost mightily, or handily there in South Carolina. And this was in his concession speech, his tone was -- or at least he said that he didn't want to take the low road to get to the highest office in the land and then he went on to say the following. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want the presidency in the best way, not the worst way.

(APPLAUSE)

My friends, I say to you I am a uniter, not a divider. I don't just say it. I live it. I am a real reformer.

(APPLAUSE)

I'm a real reformer. I don't just say it. I live it. And I'm a fighter for this country, and I don't just say it. I live it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATALIN: Congressman King, even his press pal said this was the most incendiary concession speech they'd ever seen. Do you think calling Governor Bush an unprincipled phony is taking the high road?

KING: I think -- listen, he had 48 hours to go before the election in Michigan. He wanted to make sure that his message stayed out there. And quite frankly, after what was said about him in South Carolina and the attacks were made on him, I think it's fair game.

By the way, in New York that would pass for very mild-mannered politics after years of Ed Koch, and Al D'Amato, and Mario Cuomo, to me that's like being in Sunday school.

MATALIN: Well, let me ask you something else, because what was attacked -- all of this savagery that was going on in South Carolina -- all it was, was the Bush campaign pointing out inconsistencies in his campaign finance record, in his so-called "reform" record. If he thinks that's savagery, what's he going to do when he gets to New York? What's he going to do when he gets up against A -- A-bomb Al, who says his campaign tactics are smile, relax, attack and rip the other guy's lungs out?

If he can't stand one state where his record is questioned, how is he going to be any kind of challenge for the Democrats?

KING: No, I think he can stand up well. He was fighting back. But the fact is that the negative campaign in South Carolina was more than that.

When he had that guy, Birch, that guy who says he's a veterans' leader at an event paid for by George Bush denounce Senator McCain, who is probably the most genuine, authentic war hero we have today in public life, denounce him as somebody who doesn't care about veterans, and to have George Bush stand next to him and say nothing about it, to me that was disgraceful.

I mean, if anyone in public life in either party deserves full credit for what he's done for his country it's John McCain. And to bring someone along who's going to take a cheap shot at his record as a veterans supporter, that to me went beyond the pale and that to me is dirty campaigning. And that is something that even in New York we wouldn't think of doing.

MATALIN: OK. Well, we've got two Super Tuesday guys in front of us, and we'll ask them more about their primaries and what's beyond when we come back on CROSSFIRE. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATALIN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Bush and McCain vow to fight on regardless of the Michigan outcome tomorrow. Will the internecine intramurals interfere with their general election prospects?

Two Super Tuesday Republicans handicap the upcoming primaries and beyond, McCain supporter New York Congressman Pete King, and Bush backer Massachusetts Governor Paul Cellucci -- Bill.

PRESS: Governor, a couple of questions about Massachusetts in just a moment.

CELLUCCI: Sure.

PRESS: But first, let's turn to Michigan here for a second, because that's up tomorrow, and if you live in Michigan today, the phone rings, you pick it up, you may hear a recorded message, this message I want to read you just a little part of from the Reverend Pat Robertson. It goes like this, governor.

"Protect unborn babies and restore religious freedom once again in America. Tomorrow's Republican primary may determine whether the Republican Party will nominate a man who wants to take First Amendment freedoms from citizens' groups while he gives unrestricted power to labor unions, a man who chose as his national campaign chairman a vicious bigot who wrote that conservative Christians in politics are anti-abortion zealots, homophobes and would be censors. John McCain refused to repudiate these words." It goes on and on.

My question, governor, that kind of tactic, do you approve of that message and do you approve of those tactics?

CELLUCCI: Well, I'm not a big fan of these advocacy phone calls, but I know that, you know, Pat Robertson, if he wants to make the phone calls, that's his right as an American. And I know that there are people who are supporting John McCain who are also making advocacy phone calls from the McCain campaign. This was two days after Senator McCain said he was taking the high road.

So it's part of what happens in our democracy, and I think the people will sort things out.

I also think we're probably going to have to put Senator McCain in the space shuttle, because he said, if George Bush is a reformer, then I'm an astronaut. And George Bush is a reformer. He reformed education and ended social promotion in Texas. He reformed the tort system. He cut taxes. He has been -- he ended welfare abuses by emphasizing work with welfare reform and cut the welfare rolls significantly in the state of Texas.

He is a reformer with results. And you contrast that with Senator McCain and a long career in Washington. He may well call himself a reformer, but we don't see too much as an end result from his efforts as a reformer. And I think the people of Michigan are going to look for someone with the executive experience, with a record of getting things done.

PRESS: Well, of course Governor Bush started calling himself a reformer after he lost so big up in New Hampshire, governor. But one of the things, he's running ads right now...

CELLUCCI: Well, his record is what it is in Texas.

PRESS: Well, I want to ask you about that record. He's running ads right now in Michigan where he's claiming one of his reforms is patients' bill of rights for Texas. As a matter of fact, governor, as you probably know, the patients' bill of rights passed in Texas, he vetoed it. It went back. The legislature overrode his veto. The governor worked against it, did nothing when the legislature overrode his veto. He let it become law without his signature.

Now, when you work against something and you veto it, and then you just simply let it become law, I mean, you take credit for that. You call that a reformer, governor.

CELLUCCI: Well, there was a 1997 law that he did sign into law that did provide protections for consumers...

PRESS: But not the patients' bill of rights, governor.

(CROSSTALK)

CELLUCCI: ... health maintenance organizations, and he can take credit for that certainly. And I'm a governor. I know sometimes they put things in bills that despite the fact that most of the bill is what I proposed, they put in one of these bitter pills. They'll put in a tax increase. When they passed the convention center here for the city of Boston, they put in a tax increase, and we vetoed it because I would -- I said I would not raise taxes.

The rest of the bill was what I had proposed but they put the bitter pill in. That's why I vetoed it. It happens a lot when governors make decisions.

But he has a record of reform not only on health care, on welfare, on education, on tort reform. It's a record of results. He's also cut the taxes by record amounts in the state of Texas.

MATALIN: Congressman King, the senator left South Carolina vowing to take the high road and has said repeatedly there and since, "I will never lie to you." What Bill just said is one of his lies about HMO reform. It's too lengthy to go into. This one is much simpler.

He has said that...

PRESS: That wasn't about McCain!

MATALIN: You're talking about Bush. This is what McCain has said about Bush on HMO reform. That's a life.

Here's another thing that McCain has said: that Bush spent more than Clinton. Here's the reality. Under Bush, the rate of growth has decreased from 31 percent to 2.7 percent. The Wall Street Journal has reported that state -- per capita state spending in Texas under Bush is -- makes Texas 50 out of 50. If that's not lying about Bush's record -- including this HMO lie, including no campaign finance reform, which is also a lie, what is that? Clinton-speak? What's McCain doing there?

KING: Listen, if Governor Bush is such a good reformer, I wish he would have tried to reform Bob Jones University when he was there. But the fact is, Mary, Governor Bush is trying desperately to try to talk: John McCain as not being a reformer. Believe me, I have voted against a number of Senator McCain's proposals, but he is the No. 1 reformer in Washington whether you agree with him or not. And to try to say he's not, to me, is really being disingenuous.

Also the fact is I've have in politics 30 years. I have never seen more of a grassroots response to a candidate than John McCain is getting today. I can't walk across the street in my district -- in fact, just walking here to the studio tonight a guy stopped me on the street and congratulated me for supporting Senator McCain.

This is very unusual. What he's doing is he's tapping into a raw nerve in American politics. People realize he's something different, and they also know he has the ability to be president. And that's why I'm supporting him and that's why many more people will, and that's why I think he's going to win in Michigan tomorrow, despite the efforts of John Engler or any of the others. I think John McCain is going to win and then come on to New York. And he's going to do very well here in New York.

MATALIN: Congressman King, that was beautiful -- not anywhere near answering my question. Texas spending is 50 out of 50.

KING: Mary, I...

MATALIN: Why is Senator McCain lying about Bush's record?

KING: Mary, first of all, I'm not going to accept that he's lying. I don't have a clue what the spending is in Texas. You can go on and say it's percentage this, percentage that. We can throw numbers back and forth all day. You know that. Listen, you did it when you were in the White House. I've done it in Congress. You can always play games with numbers, but the bottom line is that Senator McCain is a reformer, and I'm sure tomorrow Senator McCain will have an answer to whatever numbers you come up with today. I mean, that's just, you know -- the numbers games go on forever. You know that as well as anyone, Mary.

PRESS: Governor Cellucci, I looked at the registration figures today in Massachusetts. There are three times as many Democrats as Republicans, four times as many independents -- unenrolled, I guess you'd call them -- as Republicans. I know you didn't get elected, Governor, without the support of a lot of Democrats and a lot of independents. In South Carolina, even though he lost...

CELLUCCI: That's right.

PRESS: ... even though he lost, John McCain got -- carried Democrats four to one. He carried independents two to one. Don't you need that kind of candidate who can draw those votes in November? I'm -- to win in November, Governor?

CELLUCCI: Well, just look at what Governor Bush did in Texas. He got 70 percent of the vote on his re-election. He got almost 50 percent of the Hispanic-American vote, almost 30 percent of the black American vote. He has demonstrated he can win the votes of Republicans, independents and Democrats. He's done it in Texas. We're talking about a Republican primary. This is a process to nominate the Republican candidate for president. You have to get those Republicans first.

PRESS: Yes, Governor, we are talking about a Republican primary. We're not talking about Texas any longer. We're talking about a national campaign. And in New Hampshire, John McCain ran away with the Democrats and independents, the crossover votes. The same thing happened in South Carolina. And so I'm asking you...

CELLUCCI: You can't conclude...

PRESS: ... don't you think, Governor -- my question is, do you believe that Governor Bush has gone so far to the right on abortion and on taxes that he's losing those Democrats now, he's losing those independents now?

CELLUCCI: No, I don't. You can't conclude because someone is getting Republican votes in a Republican primary that they're not going to then be able to get independent votes and Democratic votes in November when he has a track record of doing that in the second- largest state in this country. That doesn't follow.

PRESS: All right, we'll see whether it follows or not soon enough. For now, we're out of time. Gentlemen, Governor Cellucci in Boston, thanks so much for joining us on CROSSFIRE. Honor to have you here.

CELLUCCI: Thank you.

PRESS: And always good to have you back, Congressman King...

KING: Thank you, Bill.

PRESS: ... joining us from New York.

And, of course, Mary Matalin and I, we get the last word. We call it closing comments -- coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Tomorrow, voters in Michigan and Arizona will have their chance to be heard in the GOP nomination race, and CROSSFIRE leads off CNN's primary results coverage. Former candidates John Kasich and John Bauer join Mary and me, regular time -- Gary Bauer join Mary and me. That's tomorrow night, regular time, 7:30 p.m. Eastern on CNN.

MATALIN: You're so excited about this, aren't you? You're so excited about this primary.

PRESS: I am excited about this, Mary. But I just have one question to ask you, OK? As a Bush supporter? Do you really think that being joined to the hip with Pat Robertson is going to help George Bush in November? Why is he doing this?

MATALIN: No, you know, I just listen to you and James and all of these demagogues say it. I just want to say this: We're in a primary right now. Spending in Texas under Bush is 50th out of 50 states, OK? Pete King says you can fool with numbers. You can't fool with 50 out of 50. Why is John McCain lying about the Bush record? Because it's excellent and it's going to beat yours.

PRESS: Oh, come on. Oh -- look, come on. Everybody makes statements. I mean, Bush...

MATALIN: You can't -- 50 out of 50.

PRESS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

MATALIN: Fifty out of 50.

PRESS: Wait a minute. For George Bush to say that John McCain is no reformer is the biggest lie we have ever seen in American politics. But answer my question: How does Pat Robertson help? He doesn't.

From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

MATALIN: Sorry you don't like the Christians, Bill.

And good night. From the right, I'm Mary Matalin.

PRESS: One -- Pat Robertson.

MATALIN: Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

And stay with CNN tonight. At 9:00 p.m., Al Gore and Bill Bradley -- remember them? -- facing off live from the Apollo Theater in Harlem, right here on CNN.

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