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Larry King Live

Dr. Bob Jones III Discusses the Controversy Swirling Around Bob Jones University

Aired March 3, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, you have seen his name in headlines, you may think you know his views, but do you? Bob Jones III, president of the very controversial Bob Jones University is with us for the full hour, and we'll take your calls, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We are in Washington. I'm Larry King. My guest is Dr. Bob Jones III, the president of the now very controversial Bob Jones University, now located in Greenville, South Carolina. He's come out of a hospital bed to be with us tonight, and we are glad to see that he is feeling better. He was originally on my radio show some 17 years ago on a different topic. It's nice to see him again.

What's it like to have this sudden fame?

DR. BOB JONES III, PRES., BOB JONES UNIVERSITY: Well, it's something we obviously could have done without. You talked about the now controversial Bob Jones University. The truth is, I guess, we have always been controversial.

KING: Yes, but never like this, right? You've never been the center of a campaign?

JONES: No, we have been controversial because we -- you know, we believe in the Bible and that makes you controversial today, but somehow this has been brought up into the middle of the campaign in the most inexplicable way.

KING: Does it annoy you?

JONES: No, not really. You know, we feel like the Lord owns the university, it's his school, it's been there 73 years and if he allowed this to happen, then we are content. We are just trying to figure out what the meaning is.

KING: But so much of it has been negative toward you. Has that affected you emotionally?

JONES: No, not really, the peace of God is a wonderful thing, the sovereignty of God is a wonderful thing, and he is in charge. He doesn't let it bother me.

KING: Let's trace a little about the history of the school, your grandfather started it, right? JONES: That is right.

KING: As a reason for starting it, did he feel a need for this?

JONES: Good question, Larry. He was an evangelist, a contemporary of Billy Sunday back in the teens and '20s of this country, and as he traveled, he found that young people were having their faith stolen, their morals destroyed at college. He said, "You know, there needs to be a place where they can get the highest in academics and not come away with their faith destroyed, but strengthened, and their confidence in the Bible strengthened."

So he said, "I'm going to start a school." My grandmother said, "Bob, you are crazy," and he said, "Well, I know I'm not an educator, but I can borrow the educational brains." So he did, he knew his limitations. He said, "But I know the philosophy that ought to be here," and so, a little school started with 85 students in north Florida and the rest of the story is today.

KING: How long -- moved to South Carolina soon after?

JONES: Moved to Tennessee after the great Depression, which hit two years after the founding of the college, and there was no money, and people paid for tuition with their vegetables from their father's gardens. They moved up to Tennessee, near Chattanooga, to be a little closer to people, and easier access, and then in 1946, after World War II, there was this huge influx of veterans, they had seen their friends blown to bits in the foxholes, they understood that eternity was real and soon, and they -- all that mattered to them was getting men ready to live with Christ eternally, so they used the G.I. Bill and they started flooding and we couldn't expand, so we were looking for a place and the Lord led us to Greenville, South Carolina.

KING: All right, the concept that a school -- it is a Christian training, in fact, you call it a traditional, Bible believing Christian place, right?

JONES: That's right.

KING: That's what you call it.

JONES: Yes, good definition.

KING: Do you have postgraduate studies?



JONES: In education, in religion, and in fine arts.

KING: So there is no law school or medical school?


KING: Do many of your children go on? JONES: Oh, yes.

KING: To law schools or medical schools at major universities?

JONES: Oh, yes.

KING: Because if you're not...

JONES: We have pre-law, pre-med.

KING: If you are not accredited, do they have a problem getting into postgraduate schools?

JONES: Sometimes they have a problem, but you know, people from accredited colleges do, too. I'll give you an example. One of our graduates recently told me that two years ago he went to the University of Virginia medical school, and I said, how many were in your freshman class? He said, 127 of us. I said, How many applicants were there? He said, 4,700, so he got in. But, Harvard and Yale and Stanford graduates didn't, so there is no guarantee that accreditation will get you in.

KING: All right, let's get over -- discuss some of the restrictions, and then we'll discuss some of the things that are in news and we'll deal with politics and take some calls.


KING: Why can't black kids date white kids?


KING: Because you didn't take black kids for a long time, right?

JONES: Well, 50 percent of American colleges as late as the mid- 1960s still didn't take black students, so...

KING: But you were late?

JONES: 1970, so we weren't that late. Furman (ph) University in our town took their first black I believe it was in '65, Clemson in '63. So, you know, we were not exclusive in this by any means.

KING: But will you admit, as Jerry Falwell has said, you were wrong, you should have taken them?

JONES: Yes, we do. We do, of course we do.

KING: All right, why -- explain this, why they can't date.

JONES: Well, being a Bible believing institution, Larry, we try to base things on Bible principle. The problem we have today is that our principle is so greatly misunderstood. People think we don't let them date because we are racist, in other words to be racist you have to treat people differently. We don't. We don't let them date, because we were trying, as an example, to enforce something, a principle that is much greater than this.

We stand against the one-world government, against the coming world of anti-Christ, which is a one world system of blending, of all differences, of blending of national differences, economic differences, church differences, into a big one ecumenical world. The Bible is very clear about this.

We said, you know, way back years ago, when we first had a problem, which was -- by the way, we started this principle, back in the mid-'50s, I was a college student at BJU at the time and it was with an Asian and Caucasian is -- we didn't even have black students for another 15 years. So it was not put there as a black thing, I think people need to understand that.

KING: So the fear of one world relates back to two people dating?

JONES: Now, we realize that a inter-racial marriage is not going to bring in the world the anti-Christ by any means, but if we as Christians stand for Christ and not anti-Christ, and we see -- we are against the one world church. We are against one economy, one political system.

We see what the Bible says about this, so we say, OK, if they're going to blend this world -- and inter-racial marriage is a genetic blending, which is a very definite sort of blending -- we said as -- let's put this policy in here, because we are against the one world church and, way back, 17 years ago when I was on your program, I was saying on programs all across America, we are not going to the Supreme Court fighting for our rule and our -- we are fighting for our right to it. There is a religious freedom issue, that's all we ever fought for.

KING: You are a private institution, you don't get the tax benefit because -- but you are entitled to the thing -- I'm trying to find out why you have the rule.

JONES: Yes. We have the rule, because it was a part of a bigger -- it was a -- it wasn't the rule itself. We can't point to a verse in the Bible that says you shouldn't date or marry inter-racial.

KING: You can't back it up?

JONES: No, we can't back it up with a verse from the Bible. We never have tried to, we have never tried to do that. But we have said there is a principle here, an overriding principle of the one world government. But let me tell you how insignificant this is. Students never hear it preached. There have been four, five, six generations of students that graduated from there have never heard this preached in our chapel or taught in our school. To us...

KING: But it's a rule, though, they know they can't.

JONES: It is a rule, it is, but it's the most insignificant thing, but now, we are being defined as a racist school. I mean, that is all the media talks about. KING: Partly, during the era -- you know -- the era of segregation, segregationists said, well, we are not racist, we just think the races should be apart, they should be treated equally, but not together, and that was regarded as a kind of a cop-out.


KING: Do you think maybe -- I mean, you could change that, you think it is a stretch maybe? In other words, have you given thought to maybe that's taking it too far, down to two people into a whole one world concept?

JONES: I don't think it's taking it too far, but I can tell you this, we don't have to have that rule. In fact, as of today, we have dropped the rule. We have dropped the rule for this reason.

KING: Today?

JONES: Today. I met with the administrators this afternoon before coming here. But let me tell you why we dropped it. We don't want this to be a -- here is a great institution, one of the premier academic institutions in America, one of the premier Christian colleges of America. We have a broader testimony. And if all anybody can see is this rule, which we never talk about or preach, which most of our students couldn't even tell you what it is. It is that unimportant to us.

I said to our administration, you know, guys, this thing is of such insignificance to us, it is so significant to the world at large, the media particularly, why should we have this here as an obstacle? It hurts our graduates, we love our graduates greatly, it hurts maybe the church, as well. I don't want to hurt the church of Jesus Christ.

KING: Now it's involved in the presidential race.

JONES: It is involved in the presidential race.

KING: You caused a presidential candidate to write a letter to a cardinal.

JONES: Yes, well...

KING: I'll get to that in a minute.

JONES: He did that. OK, but I want to tell you...

KING: It's ended?

JONES: It is ended, and I want it to be very clear why it has ended. Our concern for the cause of Christ, our concern for our graduates, our concern for our testimony, our concern for the school's broader usefulness is greater to us than a rule that we never talk about and that is meaningless to us. The principle upon which it's based is very, very important.

KING: I understand. JONES: But the rule itself is not, so we did away with it.

KING: Gone today?


KING: Dr. Bob Jones III, president, Bob Jones University, he's the guest. Don't go away.


KING: All right, if you joined us late we have just learned as of today, this afternoon, that there is no more ban on interracial dating at Bob Jones University.

How about some other things before we get into political aspect. The school is free of drugs, sex and alcohol. You have a dress code. Any one breaks this they're out, right?

JONES: Well, not every rule.

KING: I mean, not the dress code...

JONES: Yes, yes, yes, that's right.

KING: ... but if you break the drug code, you're out.

JONES: Sure, oh yes, absolutely.

KING: If you have a drug addict, you don't try to help them? Or you throw them out?

JONES: Well, our first obligation is to the Christian student who means business for the Lord. So we send this young man or young lady to their pastor to ask for help in that arena. We -- a young man or young lady who's come to us, recently converted, no longer on drugs, of course we grow them, but...

KING: No music, movies, TV, Internet access. Why?

JONES: Oh, there's...

KING: All those things are learning processes -- bad and good, but they're learning processes.

JONES: We have Internet access. We have a filtered Internet access.

KING: You -- certain things are not allowed in.

JONES: Yes, yes, certain things.

KING: OK, why not movies and music, television?

JONES: Well, I think the entertainment industry has been one of the most debilitating factors in our nation's moral decline. You now, I think when a 6-year-old boy shoots a 6-year-old girl, I mean, this is a new low in America. It happened two days ago, as you're well aware. I think we're seeing the fruit of godlessness. I think the media -- I think the media is very anti-God. You know, you'll never see a normal preacher. You hardly ever see a normal family on there. The values are skewed. And we say, you know, we Christians ought to feed our minds on better stuff than this, wholesome stuff, not perversity.

KING: But, Doctor, there's a lot of good stuff on television...

JONES: Well, sure. Oh...

KING: ... and there's a lot of good stuff in movies.

JONES: Well, you're on TV. You know, that's obvious.

KING: And there's a lot of good music. I mean, there's some bad music but there's good -- but why not let the individual, free will, make their own selection process? Why would God not want that?

JONES: Well, of course, individuals at home do. When a young person comes to Bob Jones University, he's coming, as it were to a boot camp. We're trading servants of Christ for his army, if you will.

KING: You have a reason for being...

JONES: Yes, it's a discipline process.

KING: So, therefore, the parent who sends their child to you knows that these are the rules.

JONES: That's right.

KING: But the rules benefit them how? How is a child benefited by not seeing a movie?

JONES: OK, I believe the part of man that we feed is the part that grows strong. We feed the flesh, the flesh will grow strong. We feed the spirit, the spirit will grow strong. What we starve atrophies. Most people today have fed themselves on the entertainment media. I think it's -- we've becoming enslaved by it. I mean, a person can hardly sit down today without a movie or without music or something going on.

Now there's obviously good music, there's obviously good movies, but when young people come to Bob Jones Universities, we're trying to wean them away from the feeding of the flesh and take them to the scriptures, take them to a wholesome environment to the feeding of the spirit. It doesn't mean there's not a place in life for us all to have good, uplifting classical music, good music, good entertainment, good novels, good whatever. You know, there's so much that's good. But we're trying to take a young branch, if you will, and straighten it back up with the discipline of the word of God, so it can grow straight and tall again. That's what it's all about. We're trying to take away that which has bent it over. JONES: More with Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Don't go away.


KING: Can students date at Bob Jones University?

JONES: Oh, yes. I found my wife there.

KING: Can they dance?


KING: Can they hold hands?


KING: Why is holding hands bad?

JONES: It's not bad in itself, but the Bible teaches us to be distrustful of flesh. It says we'll put no confidence in the flesh. The physical familiarity in a close environment of young people can get out of hand very quickly, out of control very quickly. We feel like we want to promote an atmosphere to young people -- for young people to their parents, that says we're going to do everything we can to help your young person walk with God, love God, serve God. We're going to do everything we can to keep this fleshly nature of ours from taking control of us. So that's why.

KING: And...

JONES: It's a first step to the future.

KING: Hard, isn't it for them?

JONES: Sure it is.

KING: OK, let's move to the printed criticism -- and it's all over the stories tonight in New York -- of your criticism of the Catholic Church. Will you explain your feelings about the Catholic Church and also the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What is the argument of the Bob Jones theory against that?

JONES: Well, it;s really not the Bob Jones theory, Larry. In all, this is what the Reformation was all about a long time ago. You know, this goes back to...

KING: Luther.

KING: Yes. And before him to Wycliff in mid-1300s in England. It's called the Morning star of the revelation -- the morning star of the Reformation.

Bob Jones University believes the Bible. If there's doctrine in any other church contrary to the Bible, we can't feel good about that. I mean, the way we feel about the Catholic Church or Mormonism or Buddhism or Hinduism or anything else is that, you know, we wish these people knew the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord delivers liberal Protestants, atheists, unsaved people of any faith, delivers them from the bondage of sin to Christ.

KING: That's what the Catholics say.

JONES: The Catholics say the deliverance is in the grace that is imparted through the transsubstantiaton that takes place in the offering of the sacraments, the elements of the sacraments...

KING: Original sin.

JONES: ... takes away -- you know, the Catholics are very strong on the infallibility of the pope.

KING: So why have you called it a cult, though? I mean, what -- OK, they're entitled to their opinion. It's a different opinion than yours.

JONES: Sure.

KING: Why say that they're a cult? Why say that that's some sort of mysterious kind of thing that's bad?

JONES: Well, "cult" has, I admit, a connotation, of something sinister, or...

KING: It does.

JONES: ... small and underhanded. Cult also means, according to the dictionary -- I looked it up this afternoon because I figured you would ask this question -- it also has the broader meaning of strict adherence to any faith. Now...

KING: Then you're a cult.

JONES: People -- Catholics would say we are. Mormons would say we are. In fact, I was reading a "Newsweek" article today written in 1996 about the pope's visit to South America. And he was railing against the Protestants there. And the whole article was about how strong he was. He called them a sect. So I guess what we're dealing with here is that any group calls anybody else outside of its group sect, cult, whatever, looks with suspicion upon it.

KING: The argument against the Mormons is what?

JONES: Mormonism is pantheistic -- it is a religion of -- well, it doesn't teach the same thing about Jesus Christ that we teach. Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ...

KING: Came back,

JONES: ... were brothers, that they were spirit children that God and his wife fathered in heaven, and that when there's a Mormon marriage in the temple and so forth and so on, that that couple when they die go to a planet and people it with spirit children, just like God and his wife people heaven, and that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, and that Lucifer rebelled, and Jesus sided with the father. Therefore, he had -- the Bible teaches very clearly that Jesus Christ is God. He is not a created being, he is God. He is in essence -- he is very God of very God.

KING: But when you get noted as condemning faiths, what would have happened -- and you know it's become part now political -- if George Bush in his speech at your university, he later, three weeks later, said that he disagreed with his concept of your church and then wrote a letter to Cardinal O'Connor in New York, if he had spoken against it that day at your university, what would have happened? Would the students have booed? Would you have been angry?

JONES: No, as a matter of fact, one week later -- or maybe it was two weeks later, Alan Keyes came and did that very thing.

KING: Criticized?

JONES: Yes, he was well...

KING: And how was he treated?

JONES: He was very well-received. I got up afterwards, and I told him I appreciate his frankness. And when I got through, he came to the platform and hugged me. And I hugged him. He was treated royally.

KING: So Governor Bush could have taken that approach that day?

JONES: Of course he could. But you know what, Larry? Until now, nobody has ever expected a candidate -- I mean, this whole thing is so unreasonable. If a candidate has to disassociate himself from anything he might disagree with at a venue where he finds himself speaking, he can't go anywhere to speak. He'd never get to his speech. This whole thing has never happened before. They did this to hurt George Bush. I think the media did this to hurt George Bush and to promote McCain. And this thing has just gotten so out of hand, all of a sudden the university is at the center of the American Republican presidential debate. And who would have thought that this could have ever happened? We've had candidates come and speak for us for as long as I can remember. Ronald Reagan's been there, Bob Dole's been has visited the campus and Jack Kemp...

KING: How many Democrats have?

JONES: No, just the Republicans who are the conservative ones, you know? We wouldn't invite McCain there even.

KING: He's conservative. You don't think he's...

JONES: Not to our way of thinking. I think, you know, he could very easily have the Democratic label upon him and very well...

KING: But you would probably disagree with George Bush on immigration. He's much more for open policy on immigration.

JONES: Obviously we don't subscribe to everything a candidate. Candidly, we couldn't invite any candidate if that were the case.

KING: All right, let me get a break and we'll find out what -- let's go further with this.

Here is what Governor Bush had to say in most recent marks about this topic.



GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I regret is somebody ascribing to me opinions and views that are not my views. Calling me an anti-Catholic bigot is not right.


But you don't regret having gone there?

BUSH: No, I don't regret going to many places. But I do regret guilt by association in politics. I do regret people labeling me for something I'm not. I've got a record of inclusion in the state of Texas.


KING: Dr. Jones just to told me that he thought this whole thing was bizarre. We'll ask him to elaborate on that.

But first, here is what Governor Bush had to say, also on this subject, on the Letterman show.



DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST: What were you doing at Bob Jones University last week? How did that go? It didn't turn out the way you'd hoped, huh?

BUSH: I missed a chance. I should have stood up there and said, listen, if you're going to bash Catholics, I'm going to come after you.


BUSH: That's the way I feel. I've got a good record in Texas about being -- bringing people together. I've got a good record, as you mentioned, of being a uniter not a divider.

LETTERMAN: Yes, now, you know, and then I heard later you were talking about you didn't realize that the people of this university, I guess Bob Jones his own self, had been sort of attacking your father when he was in office, and yet you show up there on campus. Now to me, I'm thinking, do I have the best staff I need to be running this campaign?

Did heads roll there, Governor?

BUSH: Heads got knocked, that's right.


KING: OK, it's bizarre, why?

JONES: Well, until now, as I say, nobody has ever expected a candidate to go and agree with everything where he speaks. Nor do we agree with everything a candidate might believe when we invite him to come. The truth is, Larry, we don't hate Catholics. We love Catholics. We love the souls of everybody. We want to see everybody come to Christ. It's...

KING: But you don't like Catholicism.

JONES: The doctrines, the theology, I mean, we are Protestants.

KING: The idea of a pope.

JONES: No, no, and many other things. But having a difference with the beliefs of another person doesn't make us intolerant toward that person?

KING: Don't hate Mormons?

JONES: Don't hate Mormons, absolutely not. You know, we've got to realize something, that the reason there are different faiths is there are different beliefs. We believe the Bible. Now we have to stand opposed to everything -- if the Bible is truth, God's eternal truth, we have to stand opposed to the false doctrine that is contrary the Bible, regardless what label it may carry. That doesn't make us haters of people.

KING: Do you realize now that in the future, candidates may not come to your school?

JONES: Sure I do. And I couldn't live...

KING: I mean, odds are they won't.

JONES: You know whose fault that is? That's the media's fault. They've made themselves -- made us so stigmatized.

KING: But it was a fair question to ask. You don't think it was fair to ask?

JONES: No, no. It's totally unfair.

KING: Unfair.

JONES: It's never been asked of a candidate before. I said, you know, Ronald Reagan came there, we've had the whole string of candidates there for years. For 20, 30 years, we've had candidates come, never expected that before. This was a political issue. This was purely political. It was a divide-and-conquer tactic of the McCain camp and the media.

KING: Do you think it was the media or McCain?

JONES: I think it was both. I think at that time the media was really in love with McCain. I think -- and they've changed since then a little bit. And I it was a divide and conquer. And that's what the whole country is coming to today, that you get political power by segregating yourself from other people and playing off other people of.

KING: Are you supporting Governor Bush?

JONES: I am.

KING: We'll take a break and come back with Dr. Bob Jones III, the president of Bob Jones University. We'll be including your phone calls. He's here for the full hour.

I'm Larry King. Don't go away.


KING: We are back with Dr. Bob Jones III.

By the way, it was mentioned there in the Letterman piece, did you call George W. Bush's father a devil?

JONES: You know I did. Let me tell you why I did, and I'm sorry I did. We have all said things we wish we hadn't said.

KING: You bet.

JONES: I was caught up in the fervor of the conservative movement at that time, which really was sorry that Ronald Reagan put George Bush as his running mate on the ticket. I mean, everybody was calling him a lot of names then. As I got to know more about him, I became quite benign toward him. In fact, I was his guest in the White House at one time, and he didn't hold that against me.

KING: Oh, really? No, he forgave you. I mean...

JONES: Well, I mean...

KING: Did he bring it up?

JONES: He didn't say he did, no, but he had me there and we were together on other occasions in a very comfortable manner, and I came to enjoy the man's company a lot and, you know, I have a whole different view of him today.

KING: So you -- but you don't like being tossed in this political arena, do you? JONES: No.

KING: You have no choice now.

JONES: Yes, we don't really belong there.

KING: But you're in it.

JONES: Yes, right.

KING: And if you had to do it over again, you would not disinvite the governor. I'm sure he -- if he had to do it over again he would discuss his feelings about Catholicism and inter-racial dating, I'm sure.

JONES: You know, as Protestants, anybody who knows that we are Baptist Protestant people should know that we obviously don't agree with Catholic doctrine, but there is nobody that has ever accused us of hating Catholics who knows us. The state attorney general, Charlie Condon, is my friend.

KING: Of South Carolina.

JONES: He called me -- of South Carolina -- he called me twice last week, he said, "Bob, they are treating the school wrong. You know I'm a Catholic," but he said, "I have known you, I have known other -- many from the university," he said, "not once has anybody ever shown me any disrespect." He said, "Obviously we have our doctrinal differences, but," he said, "your people are kind and gracious," and he said, "I will go on any program and say that anywhere."

KING: But if you call the pope the anti-Christ you will offend Catholics, I mean, that's logical to think that, right? Just as if I said something derogatory about Jesus Christ, I would offend you.

JONES: Yes, but you know, the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is supposed to be believed by all Presbyterians that have embraced the Westminster Confession as their doctrinal basis, Article VI of the Westminster Confession calls the pope an anti-Christ. This -- there is a long tradition for this. It goes -- in fact, Wycliff that I talked about a while ago, in the 14th century, he called the pope an anti-Christ. So, Protestants do not -- you know, the pope doesn't go down well with Protestants, OK.

KING: All right. What's the feeling of your institution toward gays?

JONES: We believe it is very clear from the scripture that homosexuality is a sin, very clear. Adultery is a sin, there are many other sins.

KING: But adultery is a chosen act. Do you think homosexuality is chosen, that someone decides, hetro, homo, hetro, homo, I will be homo? JONES: No, absolutely not. God would not call it a sin if it was something a person couldn't help. God would be cruel to send a man to Hell for something he couldn't help.

KING: So you think he does choose it?

JONES: I think he does choose it, absolutely, he chooses it.

KING: So why would someone choose homosexuality? If he had the choice in this world where you are going to be hit against and discriminated against, why would you choose homosexuality?

JONES: Why would a man choose to break his wife's heart and cheat on his wife? Why would a man choose...

KING: Because it's the temptation of it, yes.

JONES: ... to take drugs destroy himself? Why would he choose this -- part of the perversity of sin that any of us choose sin. Man is a sinner by choice. Man chooses to do wrong. Man chooses to hurt the heart of God.

KING: So if you were gay, you couldn't be a student?

JONES: No. We would not keep a student in school, we would not keep an adulterer in school, not keep a thief in school, OK.

KING: You put that in the same category, though? You put a gay in the category with thief or an adulterer?

JONES: Well, any sin, any sin.

KING: The hardest thing -- I have discussed this with others in the clergy, I've never understood it, because do you know when you chose heterosexuality? I mean, if homosexuality is chosen, then heterosexuality must be chosen. Did you make a conscious decision one day to like women?

JONES: No. Heterosexuality, according to Genesis when he created woman for the man and of the man, and he said they, too, should be one flesh.

KING: You think that's natural?

JONES: That is a God-given natural choice. God ordained that, God put that in there. Homosexuality is a perversity, it is a choice of sin.

KING: But God loves the sinner, as much as he loves you, right?

JONES: Absolutely, absolutely.

KING: So he loves the gay.

JONES: A homosexual...

KING: He loves the pope.


KING: All right.

JONES: A homosexual can be saved, the pope could be saved, if he would embrace Jesus Christ in his finished worked on the cross as the only means of salvation. If he would say, grace is by Christ alone, salvation is not of works, but by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. If he would believe that, he could be saved.

KING: All right, the Mormons say that, though, don't they?

JONES: No, the Mormons believe that Christ is a created being, that he is not God. If you don't accept the Bible presentation of Jesus Christ, you have not accepted the Christ who is...

KING: But they believe that Christ came back into the Americas in the 19th century.

JONES: Yes, there is no Bible basis for that whatsoever. You will not find that in the Bible.

KING: You accept the Old Testament?

JONES: Old and new.

KING: What are your opinions of Judaism?

JONES: I have to have high opinions of Judaism, because you know my lord was a Jew. My lord was -- he came to fulfill the law. You and I have broken the law, that is what makes us sinners. The Lord Jesus came to fulfill -- he said, I didn't come to put the law aside, but to fulfill the law. He was the only one who ever lived and kept the law, and therefore he was able -- the only one able to be our sin substitute.

KING: Bishop Pike (ph) once said in an interview, the late Bishop Pike, "All Christians are Jews, many of us forget it."

JONES: That's a strange statement.

KING: Do you ever think of yourself as Jewish?


KING: Your father -- your lord is Jewish.

JONES: Yes, he is Jewish. You know what? He came unto his own, the Bible says, but his own received him not. That is he came to the Jew and the Jew rejected him as the messiah. But to as many as received, that then gave he power to become the sons of God even of them that believe on his name.

Larry, we have a wonderful savior, he loves sinners, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. The love of God is a wonderful thing. We love the love of God that reached us. I'm a sinner, but by the grace of -- the only difference between me and a homosexual or an adulterer or a murder is that the cross of Jesus Christ has separated us.

KING: Do you think God is, we guess, angry over all of this?

JONES: Yes. Yes, the Bible speaks about.

KING: Political, I mean, though, everything that has gone on now.


KING: Your school, you're angry?

JONES: I'm not angry.

KING: You are not?

JONES: No, I'm not angry at all. God -- think about this a minute, Larry. Twenty years ago roughly, God brought the university to the national attention. You know, hardly anybody had ever heard of us before except in our circle of Christian friends, and all of a sudden we were a national name.

We went to the Supreme Court, we lost our tax exemption -- we're the only taxable college now in America, the only one. OK, we went for the principle of religious freedom, not for our policy, but for the right to hold it. I would die for a Catholic's right, a Jew's right to believe what he believes. I would not want anybody to abridge that. I would not want the U.S. Senate to write a resolution of censure against you as a Jewish man. I think this is horrible, I think this is the most un-American thing that could happen.

KING: Yes, I think Torricelli or someone is proposing the resolution of censure against your school.

JONES: That's right, yes. Imagine that, imagine that. Our forefathers came to this country for the purpose of establishing freedom of worship, and to think that our government has come to the place now where a senator would even imagine such a thing.

KING: Do you think that might pass?

JONES: I don't know whether it will pass. If it does, it is meaningless, but it is a very significant thing. I wish America would look at what's happening now 20 years later, God has brought the school to the forefront of America's attention again.

Maybe God is using this little independent Christian college that takes no federal funds, high academic standards, producing a graduate of character and patriotism, of decency and integrity. Maybe God is using this little school now, again, so America can look and say, wait a minute. What is happening to these people down there? Why is everybody against them? Why are they being accused of these -- why is the Senate even thinking about a resolution to slap them for what they believe? Will my church be next? There's some questions America needs to be asking itself.

KING: We'll be back with more. Here's what some of the students -- we went down and asked them -- think of their school.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is true that we do not agree with Catholic doctrine, but neither do we agree with Muslim doctrine. It doesn't mean that we hate Muslims or that we hate Catholics. I don't hate Catholics at all. I have several friends that are Catholics, and it's not necessarily that we -- we disagree with them doctrinally, but it's not like in our Bible classes that our teaches get up and say, hate the Catholic, hate the Catholic or anything like that at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't believe in Catholicism, but I love the people, who they are. They just don't believe in what I believe in.



KING: We're back.

By the way, was Senator McCain invited to speak?

JONES: No, he wasn't.

KING: You would not invite him.

JONES: No, I wouldn't.

KING: Because of his...

JONES: I never believed he was really a conservative.

KING: You have to be conservative to speak at the school? Why couldn't a liberal speak at the school?

JONES: Well, we're a conservative college.

KING: There's not a liberal doctrine you might agree with? You might agree with health for everyone, you might agree with concepts of -- that all races are equal, that women deserve equal pay. Some of the liberals opposed first overtime. I mean, every liberal concept can't be bad. Franklin Delano Roosevelt did some good.

JONES: Well, why do Harvard and Yale have a preponderance, almost an exclusive number of liberal speakers? Why are their teachers almost all liberals? You see, they have a purpose.

KING: But conservatives speak at Harvard and Yale. JONES: Occasionally. They have their tokens. They have their tokens...

KING: But your candidate graduated Yale.

JONES: Pardon me?

KING: George W. Bush graduated Yale.

JONES: Well, it's possible for a man to come through the system and not buy into it.

KING: Let's take a call.

Columbus, Georgia for Dr. Bob Jones -- hello.

Oh, I ought to hit it down. That would help. Good going, Larry.

Columbus, Georgia -- hello.

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Bob.


CALLER: I'm a 1994 proud graduate of BJU and a former staff member.

JONES: Great to hear from you. Who -- what is your name.

CALLER: Beth Fowler.

JONES: Oh, Beth, hello.

CALLER: With the rule being dropped, how will this affect BJU's tax exemption. Was there any provision in the Supreme Court ruling for tax exemption to be reinstated if the rule is dropped?

JONES: Great question, I'm glad you ask. It won't make any difference at all. There was no provision, and we are not going to take it back. I don't want anybody to think that this rule was dropped for any reason of gain...

KING: Other than what you stated.

JONES: Other than what I stated.

KING: That it had become too much of a burden, in a sense.

JONES: The only gain I want is for everybody to understand that the liberals were all wrong when they said we were racist. They wall wrong when they looked at our rule and drew a conclusion about us that was so unflattering and so untrue. I just want to, you know, take this club out of their hand. That's the only thing I want to do.

KING: In the George Bush letter to Cardinal O'Connor, he said, "On reflection, I should have been more clear about disassociating myself from anti-Catholic settlements and racial prejudice. It was a missed opportunity. Now this is asked politically since you've endorsed him: Should he have? Should he have, in that speech at your school, talked about his feelings on your feelings?

JONES: No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I want to reiterate...

KING: So he's wrong in saying that to the cardinal?

JONES: Yes, I think he is. I want to reiterate, nobody until George Bush came ever expected a candidate to do such a thing. I mean, it is obvious. If he goes out to Brigham Young, he might have some strong disagreements with Mormon doctrine because he himself is a Protestant. And he doesn't have to go out there and say, hey, I don't like this and I don't like that but I'm here to tell you what I want to say. Nobody expects him to.

Speaking as a politician at any venue is merely an opportunity for that man to have his say. Frankly, I like for these politicians to meet our students, because they're the greatest in the world. I love these men and women. They're wholesome. They're unlike what these politicians probably meet in a whole lot of places, and I think they need to meet these neat people. So that's also why we bring them there. Nobody expects a candidate to make disclaimers about beliefs. There's always something he doesn't agree with when he goes to a place.

KING: We'll be right back with more of Dr. Bob Jones and more phone calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Tomorrow night, Ellen Degeneres, Anne Heche and Sharon Stone will be with us.

And Monday night, Tom Brokaw.

We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My own personal belief is that God has made races perfect. God has made whites perfect and blacks and Orientals, and he hasn't given us any reason to intermix those races. But he has made them perfect. It's not a policy that discriminates against the whites or the blacks or the Orientals, but it's a policy that is equal to all three of the races.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think you should be free to date whoever you want, but I don't personally agree with -- I mean, I wouldn't probably date opposite, but just because of all the reactions from other people. But you should be able to do what you want to do.


KING: I know you don't agree with everything that Jerry Falwell says or Pat Robertson says.

JONES: No, they wouldn't agree with us either...

KING: And...

JONES: ... but we're still good friends in terms of basic beliefs.

KING: And Senator McCain also said -- were you hurt by this? -- that the Republican Party is the party of Abraham Lincoln, not Bob Jones. That hurt?

JONES: It hurt him.

KING: Austin, Texas -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, you say that you are an educator, but are you not stifling your young students? How can you expect them to go into the real world if they can't make their own decisions about dating, dress and so forth?

KING: Good question.

JONES: Yes, that is a good question. You know, the real world is the world without Christ. We teach the Bible, we teach what the Bible has to say about human nature. Our students are quite astute about the real world. They know their own human nature, they know the human nature that's in the real world and they know that but by the grace of God there would be no difference between them and the real world.

The truth is, I would have to ask, does West Point or Annapolis or the Air Force academy stifle the ability of these men and women there to function and to lead by putting them under such regimen and making such demands, actually having a dress code for all areas of their campus life? No, they produce great leaders, great leaders, they give a great education.

And indeed, if more institutions of America were doing what they are doing in terms of the discipline and the regimen and what we are trying to do at BJU, there would be a lot of difference and, in fact, Bob Jones University has been called the West Point of Christian colleges.

KING: You teach Shakespeare?

JONES: We do indeed.

KING: But you would not teach Tennessee Williams, right?


KING: I mean, it wouldn't be read? How would it harm a student to read "Streetcar Named Desire"?

JONES: Again, Larry, as I was trying to say a while ago, garbage in, garbage out.

KING: You think that is garbage?

JONES: Yes. I think that any time the fallen nature of man is a grandized -- is made to be normal, is made to be attractive, I think that is very harmful. You know, I think that good literature enobles the soul, bad literature puts man down in the gutter of life. I think there are a lot of interesting stories that cause people to wallow in depravity, and I think any kind of literature that makes us wallow in depravity is harmful to us as Christians.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Dr. Bob Jones who tonight has announced on this program that the ban on inter- racial dating at his university is over. We will be back with some closing thoughts, right after this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understood the policy when I came here, and if I didn't -- couldn't abide by it, then I would just have applied somewhere else. If they asked us to wear stocking caps in summertime, then I either do it or I can go somewhere else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The students don't talk about it a lot, because it's not something that's a big issue to us, because we all know, you know, that when you come here you're going have to deal with that and if it is going to be a problem, then don't come here to school.



KING: We're back with Dr. Jones, our remaining moments. What have you learned from this?

JONES: I've learned that religious freedom, and particularly Bible-believing Christians, the -- maybe we're the most unprotected and misunderstood and maybe despised minority in America. I think some of this is frightening. I think the hostility toward Christianity that has been exhibited in all this should frighten all freedom-loving people and certainly should frighten Christians. And I believe it has. I believe that somehow the university's been allowed of God to be brought into this thing through no fault of our own, and I think as a result a lot of people have had a wake-up call that maybe we're about to lose tolerance toward religious freedom in this country. And I am really, really concerned about that.

KING: And about changing your policy, one thing -- I know Judge Clarence Thomas is one of your favorite Supreme Court judges.


KING: He can now date his wife on the campus -- a little joke.

JONES: I admire Clarence Thomas a lot, and I know you do, too.

KING: Do you think, Dr. Jones, that you'll ever get political candidates back at school again?

JONES: I think it will be a long time before they would be free to come.

KING: And if -- if George Bush is the nominee, do you expect to hear your name, the name of your school, mentioned a lot in a presidential race this fall?

JONES: You know, it very likely may be. And I'm sorry about that. Because I don't think it's fair to the candidates, and I don't think it's fair to the university either. I really love our graduates obviously. And they have had to endure a lot of mudslinging, and I'm sorry for that.

KING: Over this, you mean?

JONES: Yes, over this issue. The whole misunderstanding, the whole misrepresentation of this issue by the media -- you know, all of a sudden you say I'm a Bob Jones University graduate -- whoa. You know, they have a lot of explaining to do. And I feel sorry for that.

KING: Do you feel victimized?

JONES: Yes, but I feel no bitterness and I feel -- I feel no regret, because I know God has allowed it, and I'm confident in that.

KING: Lost no sleep?

JONES: No sleep at all. I slept eight hours last night.

KING: Thanks, Dr. Jones. Thanks for coming.

JONES: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

KING: Dr. Bob Jones III, president of Bob Jones University. If you joined us late, the school has, of this afternoon, dropped the policy of interracial dating. Everything else stands. And if you missed any portion of this, it will be repeated about two hours from now.

Tomorrow night, Sharon Stone, Anne Heche and Ellen Degeners talk about a new film on HBO, "If These Walls Could Talk."

And Monday night, Tom Brokaw, who's followed up his book on the great generation of World War II about the children of that great generation.

Thanks very much for joining us. Stay tuned for CNN "NEWSSTAND."

I'm Larry King. Good night.



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