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Allegations Of Diamonds For Weapons

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICHARD ROTH, DIPLOMATIC LICENSE: You've heard of the old expression, "Diamonds are a girl's best friend." A United Nations investigation says diamonds like these are a president's best friend.

It's all next on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.

(voice-over): There's Sherlock Holmes, Lieutenant Columbo, and now, Ambassador Fowler. Here he is on patrol in Angola. Robert Fowler, Canada's UN rep and the Security Council's sanctions chief on Angola, has been probing how rebels in Angola, commonly known as UNITA, have been able to fight on in a more than quarter century-old civil war. The rebels got these weapons, a lot of them from Eastern Europe, in trade.

(on camera): This is DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

The rebels smuggle out diamonds to obtain weapons and badly needed fuel - by one estimate, as much as $150 million in sales. But all of this is illegal under international law because UN Security Council has slapped a ban on diamonds and weapons on the UNITA rebels because they backed out of a signed deal with the Angolan government.

A report by international experts this week accuses several presidents of African countries, chiefly Togo and Burkina Faso, of taking payoffs in diamonds. It also charges arms dealers from Europe, namely Bulgaria, and fuel suppliers with making money out of a war which has killed a million people and left three million homeless.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER HAIN, BRITISH MINISTER OF STATE: All of these are merchants of death. It is time for all of the governments of the world to act against them.

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ROTH: It is extremely rare for an official UN document to publicly say heads of state have committed crimes.

(voice-over): The report said UNITA rebel leader, Jonas Savimbi, would call the president of Burkina Faso and tell him, "His friends were on the way." Burkina Faso was said to be a safe haven for diamond dealers and rebel contacts.

The president of Togo is accused of receiving a passport-sized packet of diamonds, and once, when Savimbi didn't pay, the report says the president refused delivery of a missile system.

(on camera): The country of Rwanda is alleged to have allowed UNITA rebels to operate freely to cut deals with diamond brokers. All countries named heatedly deny these accusations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROLAND YAO KPOTSRA, TOGOLESE AMB. TO UN (through translator): Unfortunately, the working methods consisted of bringing together rumors and hearsay and odds and ends that were then regarded as being verified because they were confirmed by UNITA defectors. How can one give any credence to allegations made by such people when they all subsequently joined the government army? Would it not be in their interest just for their own survival to repeat what others who had been trained in the best schools of the Cold War had whispered to them?

MICHAEL KAFANDO, BURKINA FASO AMB. TO UN (through translator): With all due respect to the members of the panel of experts, this report seems instead to have been built on illusions rather than on certainties. You will note, for example, that most of the facts lack dates and are often flawed by a lack of concordance or of consistency.

JOSEPH MUTABOBA, RWANDAN AMB. TO UN: Rwanda formally challenges the panel to produce concrete evidence of the unfounded and uncalled for allegations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Rwanda will get its chance right now. Its UN ambassador is here, along with a major author of the report that Canada used to introduce the conclusions into the Security Council.

With me, Rwanda's UN ambassador, Joseph Mutaboba, and Angola's sanctions report author, Stanlake Samkange. Welcome, both of you gentlemen.

Let me start with you, Stanlake. You wrote this report. Overall, before we get to Rwanda, what is the secret to the UNITA rebel movement smuggling diamonds out and surviving to fight this war?

STANLAKE SAMKANGE, AUTHOR, ANGOLA SANCTIONS REPORT: Well, there's basically one major finding of the report, which is that the arms came from Bulgaria. The diamonds ended up in Antwerp. The president of Togo assisted in the procurement of weapons, and the president of Burkina Faso provided a safe haven for UNITA to conduct diamond transactions and to operate. That's the major finding.

ROTH: And it's been fairly easy to escape and evade these sanctions, you're saying?

SAMKANGE: It's been very easy. In fact, it's been so easy that the Security Council found it necessary for the first time in its history to set up a panel like this.

ROTH: OK, and in this panel, you have also made conclusions about Rwanda. Can you state, for its ambassador and for our audience, what you say is Rwanda's connection to the diamond smuggling?

SAMKANGE: The panel found that Rwanda was not a major player, but it was nonetheless a player in evading these sanctions. And this was relatively recently, since 1998. And Rwanda's role had been military cooperation with UNITA fighters, particularly in the Democratic Republic of Congo. It was also - we saw increasingly that Rwanda was providing facilities for UNITA people to come and to make arms for diamonds deals.

ROTH: All right. Well, let's let the ambassador respond or perhaps ask a question himself. What is your country's reaction to this?

MUTABOBA: Well, first of all, I think the first reaction, which would be very well put in front of the special reporter, is that Rwanda has never been involved in any dealings whatsoever with UNITA or its leader, Jonas Savimbi, or any UNITA officials - that's one. And two, to come along with time, to tell us there has been some dealings all this time without us knowing, without us being told, being told by the press and so on, it is rather unusual for a civilized way of getting a report out.

ROTH: Didn't you try to get information from Rwanda?

SAMKANGE: Yes. In fact, the panel did visit Rwanda, and I was very surprised when the ambassador spoke to the Security Council on Wednesday that he said that some of the people we had mentioned had no business relationship with Rwanda. Well, some of that information came from his government.

They told the panel when the panel was in Kigali that they had relationships with Victor Bout (ph), who also has business with UNITA. But, of course, the panel didn't accept just one source. We also went to Eastern Europe.

MUTABOBA: But so far you have not named them.

SAMKANGE: .and we confirmed.

MUTABOBA: Can you name them?

SAMKANGE: Yes, they're named in the report.

MUTABOBA: They are not. I have the report.

SAMKANGE: They are named in the report.

MUTABOBA: You named the vice president in paragraph 25.

ROTH: Paul Kagame, vice president of Rwanda and seen as a major power in that country.

MUTABOBA: Yes. I have reports in front of me.

ROTH: Right, and he's named.

MUTABOBA: On page 25, he did, yes. You are saying this one.

ROTH: Mr. Kagame has no connections with.

MUTABOBA: He has no connections. He has never met Savimbi, has never talked to Savimbi. And I don't think he will ever do that, actually. And the names there - even as the names we are talking of, there's one paragraph - 25.

SAMKANGE: As you're aware, the purpose of this report is not to investigate Rwanda's dealings. It's to investigate UNITA's dealings. And what the panel said was that Rwanda provided a haven where arms dealers and diamond dealers could meet.

MUTABOBA: Then your approach is wrong because we have to look for UNITA where they are, not where they are not.

SAMKANGE: Well, you need to.

MUTABOBA: Or where they deal.

ROTH: Well, he says that it is.

SAMKANGE: They're in Kigali.

ROTH: And a lot of the criticism of the report is that it was based on testimony of defectors from UNITA, and a lot of the criticism was that instead of "where's the beef," maybe "where's the ice," which is sort of slang for diamonds. What is your evidence on this, besides one or two people saying something? Do you have any evidence that would be presented in a courtroom?

SAMKANGE: Yes, the panel had been working for already four and a half months before we even met the defectors. And by then, we had already put together a very good picture of how things were working.

Now, what the defectors provided was concrete direct testimony on a number of the things that we had already found. For example, the handing of the diamonds to the presidents in Togo and Burkina Faso. We already had very substantial corroborated reports that these presidents had received money. But we didn't have someone saying "I gave it them."

And what the defectors provided was the someone saying, "I was in the room. I handed the person the diamonds." Now, the panel insisted because, of course, we knew we were going to be attacked by the countries mentioned - we insisted on the highest standards. And there are a number of countries that we have also a lot of evidence about, but where we didn't have someone saying, I physically, I personally gave the diamonds to them.

ROTH: Now, so he's.

MUTABOBA: Well, I challenge this kind of word of calling it "high standard." While it is true, and I welcome that UNITA rebels or UNITA officials defect and join the government, that's a wonderful (ph) thing, which I would certainly have appreciated. But writing their sayings, taking their word as the Bible is another thing. And that's why it's a very interesting tool (ph).

ROTH: Do you feel you were able to present your information to this panel? He said they had people in Rwanda. What didn't get in? What wasn't there?

MUTABOBA: Well, the information which was requested - you can ask him what kind of questions they asked and what the responses were. That's more interesting.

ROTH: Well, it seems like he.

MUTABOBA: But if he cannot name any person in the first place, at least let him now (INAUDIBLE) the questions they're asking (INAUDIBLE) and the way they are reflected in the report. No way.

SAMKANGE: As I said, the panel was very careful about the people it named. We did not name the vice president of Rwanda as somebody who had received diamonds because we didn't have evidence of that.

MUTABOBA: Right, but you mentioned that he having met Savimbi, and he's never met him. No, he didn't lie. I've seen the question, and I know he's never done that.

SAMKANGE: If you read the report carefully, you'll see that we don't say that he met Savimbi. We say that he contacted Savimbi.

MUTABOBA: Ah, what do you mean?

SAMKANGE: He called him on the telephone.

MUTABOBA: How? Do you have to be specific?

SAMKANGE: No, we don't have to be specific. He contacted Savimbi.

MUTABOBA: When you write a report, there's a rigor - a rigorous (INAUDIBLE) kind of way. How did he contact him?

SAMKANGE: Are you saying that he didn't contact.

MUTABOBA: He never did. I can challenge you on that.

ROTH: All right. Well, how is this going to play out? What is the impact, do you believe, on sanctions busting - the influence of your report, very briefly?

SAMKANGE: Well, I'm disappointed by the approach taken by Rwanda because the purpose is to tighten the sanctions, and a number of countries that have been mentioned in the report have announced investigations of the findings. And I think this is what we would hope. Bulgaria has announced a big investigation of the findings.

MUTABOBA: Well, I don't think we should mix two issues yet.

SAMKANGE: Belgium has announced an investigation as well. And I think it would be useful for countries, now that they are aware of things that have been happening, to investigate.

ROTH: And the recommendations say there should be sanctions placed against countries or government leaders that helped the rebel movement. Should there be sanctions put on Rwanda then?

SAMKANGE: Well, it's up to the Security Council to decide whether or not.

ROTH: All right. How would you feel, Ambassador, about sanctions on your country?

MUTABOBA: Well, there is no way. I feel that we should take two issues of any country. One is to recognize that the sanctions have been violated throughout and to say we support any single move, even the one from my colleague, Ambassador Fowler, to detect exactly what happened towards that main issue.

ROTH: Is your country investigating this report?

MUTABOBA: Of course, yes. And then, two, we have to be furnished with credible information. We can respond to it, to say, ah, good. This is someone you have named. We are quizzing him. We are putting him under arrest if he or she have ever done anything.

ROTH: All right. We're going to have to stop there. Gentlemen, thank you very much for discussing this issue, which is still going to come up again. Rwandan ambassador Joseph Mutaboba from Rwanda, thank you. Stanlake Samkange, the author of this very extraordinary report on sanctions busting in Angola and in the region and in Europe, thank you very much.

The Security Council can send thousands of peacekeepers to maintain a cease-fire, and sometimes, as seen in Rwanda's case, it decides not to send anyone during a genocide. But what about enforcing sanctions the full council voted for? As Ambassador Fowler found, sanctions busters need help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT FOWLER, CANADIAN AMB. TO UN: I cannot believe how ill equipped the Security Council is in terms of research and investigation facilities. There are none - absolutely none. And should that be different? I think so. Whether this is the model, we'll see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, Mr. Bone, how are you? We need Afsane here.

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ROTH: Even the Security Council wonders, where is Afsane? You heard him say, "Mr. Bone." He's referring to James Bone of the Times of London. Afsane will return next week with news from the Congo.

Filling in, another first time starter, as they say at the racetrack, Ghida Fakhry of Abu Dhabi Television.

Ghida, let me ask you about Angola. We heard a lot of countries there in our previous section criticized this report, but some others liked what they heard. And will this be a trend?

GHIDA FAKHRY, ABU DHABI TELEVISION: Well, in a way, what you're saying is absolutely true. That this report does raise a dangerous precedent if it is to be adopted in its resolutions imposing sanctions on certain heads of state. But at the same time, we've seen this week during the debate that's taken place in the Security Council that many countries have welcomed this new candor and trend of the UN seems to be adopting. And this, in a way, might even strengthen its credibility and authority on the sanctions of regimes as a whole.

So that has been a welcome for many, many countries. But this is not to suggest that some Security Council members haven't felt that there has been too much probing into the affairs of Angola.

ROTH: Everybody always wonders about internal affairs.

James Bone, this report had a little strange, exciting path until it got out in public in the final days. Tell us about that and what that might mean.

JAMES BONE, TIMES OF LONDON: Well, Richard, I want to first of all emphasize that this report and the authors of this report are abusing their diplomatic immunity to denounce private citizens. These private citizens who are denounced in this report have absolutely no remedy. They can't go to any court. They're not granted a hearing by the UN, so these people are being smeared.

Now, some of them may be smeared quite legitimately. But my concern is if any of them aren't being smeared. And let me give you an example of how this kind of report has to be undertaken in a more professional manner with a greater respect for due process and peoples' rights.

For instance, an early draft of the report had named the president of Gabon. Gabon is named in the final version as having helped ship fuel to UNITA. But the president, Omar Bongo, was not named in the final version of the report. But because the report leaked to the press, as could be expected, in its early draft, President Bongo ended up on the front page of The New York Times as having been named by a UN report which, in the end, he wasn't. Now if this kind of thing happens, what is the remedy?

FAKHRY: But surely here, James, I mean if certain countries have strong reservations as to how compelling the evidence presented has been, then they have the change to raise this in the next month, when there will be more in-depth.

BONE: I'm not worried about the countries and I'm not even worried about the presidents named. I'm worried about the private individuals who have no standing to come to the United Nations and make their case at all. For instance, the information of the two UNITA defectors who were interviewed by the panel on the question of whether UNITA shot down UN planes.

The two UNITA defectors gave evidence that their planes were shot down with shoulder-fired missiles. Actually, the United Nations itself, in UNCAO (ph), its civil aviation arm, have determined that that was not what happened. That one of them was hit by Ack-Ack (ph) fire, and the other one was probably beyond the range of shoulder-fired missiles. So that casts a lot of doubt on the kind of - on the credibility of the evidence this report is based on.

ROTH: The United Nations says the downing of UN jets - that probe also not completed yet - still to be heard on that matter.

James, Sierra Leone - the Security Council on Monday regarding that African nation, which has had its eight or nine year war, also again strongly urge rebels to start listening to what they've said and start cooperating with UN forces there. But there's also a diamond connection there, too, with the former rebel leader. Go ahead.

BONE: Yes, very much like the Democratic Republic of Congo, Sierra Leone is a diamond-fueled conflict, and the rebel group, the RUF, have been using diamonds, trading diamonds to support their activities. In fact, the British government has just told Foday Sankoh, who was the rebel commander, who's now joined the government in the peace process, not to come to a donor conference in London later this month because he is under a travel ban, and the British government is scared that some human rights groups may actually try to bring a case for him if he lands at Heathrow Airport.

FAKHRY: Yes, precisely. I mean, here we have possibly another case similar to Pinochet's as a diplomat at the UN has put it to me. I mean, if the British government takes a chance to actually invite Foday Sankoh to this conference, then it runs into this potentially embarrassing situation for it.

ROTH: All right. Well, listen James and Ghida, I've got to move to Iraq. Time is short here.

Next Friday, the UN Security Council has a major open hearing regarding "the humanitarian situation" there. A lot of tension building up behind the scenes. Whether it'll be public or not, Ghida, what is going to happen there, and what is its significance?

FAKHRY: Well, I mean, as you said, we have this humanitarian debate that's been long overdue coming up next week. We expect that there will be much more talk about the impact of sanctions on civilians. The report does not really contain any of that kind of information.

But as far as the Iraqis are concerned, they still feel that they have major reservations with regard to Resolution 1284 on which they have to base their future relationship with the UN.

ROTH: That's the resolution that would suspend sanctions if they cooperate with inspectors. Go ahead, James, very briefly.

BONE: This Iraqi report was an anticlimax. For weeks, the proponents of lifting sanctions have been saying this is going to show a deterioration in the situation. It doesn't show that. In fact, it makes the point that during the five years of the UN program, the food basket has increased in calories from 1,300 calories to 1,999 calories, only about 40 calories short of the target.

ROTH: Well, Afsane is not here. I'd love to resume the war. It'll start next week again, even though Ghida would certainly love to jump in. But instead, I would like to ask her who the UN has in mind to replace Hans Von Sponeck as the UN's humanitarian chief. We said the list was getting shorter. Any ideas?

FAKHRY: Well, as we speak, there are three people. We don't have the names. Two of them are from WFP, one from the UNDP. So we do expect, perhaps, to hear a confirmation of this next week.

ROTH: All right.

FAKHRY: Although, we know that it might take a little longer due to the length that it takes to put in place the right person.

ROTH: All right. WFP being World Food Program. UNDP, UN Development Program. Two candidates, thus, inside the UN system.

Our guests will be back in a moment. You know, speaking of Von Sponeck, the UN's humanitarian leader in Iraq, I asked Russian ambassador Sergei Lavrov who his country preferred as the new UN humanitarian coordinator in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEI LAVROV, RUSSIAN AMB. TO UN: No, we normally don't suggest any names to the secretary-general unless it is a Russian name.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROTH (voice-over): Take a good look at Andrew Lloyd (ph), the British press spokesman at the United Nations. Look hard because, as you will observe, he will not be visible as he is surrounded by the press outside the Security Council. The friendly and, more importantly, helpful Lloyd is also leaving his post this month, to the distress of media representatives in the UN corridors. (INAUDIBLE) "grows in a forest" at the UN.

(on camera): We are back with Ghida Fakhry of Abu Dhabi Television and James Bone of the Times of London, continuing on Iraq in a way. Ghida, Iraq is giving Lebanon $10 million worth of crude oil. Why the reason of this gift?

FAKHRY: Well, it might sound odd at first, but I think Iraq feels that the situation in Lebanon with the damage done to its infrastructure is relatively similar to theirs. And also, it's not the first time they've made such a gesture. They've done it in the past, in the summer for the victims of the Turkish earthquake.

ROTH: Damage to the infrastructure from Israeli jets.

FAKHRY: Absolutely, and it fits very much in the whole Arab culture of sharing.

ROTH: James Bone, speaking of sharing, there's an invitation to the Gulf. Very briefly, what's it all about?

BONE: Everybody's trying to win friends and influence people. Three of the Gulf States - Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar - have invited Security Council wives to go on a tour. I don't know whether that's at all related to their trying to secure support on the Security Council.

ROTH: OK. Also, Jesse Helms has invited the Security Council on March 30.

Both of you, thank you. That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth in New York. Thanks for watching.

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