Crossfire

Are Hillary and Rudy Unfairly Using Their Political Positions to Win New York Senatorial Campaign?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARY MATALIN, CO-HOST: Tonight, Hillary's home-court advantage. Is the first lady and the Senate candidate using the White House to boost her campaign?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the CROSSFIRE, in New York, Wayne Barrett, senior editor of the "Village Voice," and Bob McManus, editor of the "New York Post" editorial page.

DAVID CORN, CO-HOST: Good evening, welcome to CROSSFIRE. I am David Corn of "The Nation" magazine sitting in on the left for Bill Press.

Hillary and Rudy, you don't even have to say their last names. They are perhaps the most closely watched Senate candidates in U.S. history. Neither one can make a move without causing a fuss. Today, Hillary Clinton functioning in her role as first lady held a conference at the White House to call attention to the overprescription of drugs such as Ritalin for children with behavioral problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), N.Y. SEN. CANDIDATE: Some of these young people have problems that are symptoms of nothing more than childhood or adolescence. Some of them need a parent to love them or a person simply to listen to them talk about their pain, and yet, some do have severe emotional and behavioral problems that can be greatly helped by prescription drugs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORN: But critics pounced on Hillary, accusing her of turning the White House into a political prop to benefit her campaign.

Rudy Giuliani's actions, too, are subject to close scrutiny, whether they are frivolous or serious. At New York City's Inner Circle Show, Giuliani in a getup from "Saturday Night Fever" crudely alluded to President Clinton's private life. That prompted one New York columnist to call Giuliani a tasteless bully.

More seriously, Giuliani has come under assault for releasing the arrest records of an unarmed man who was shot and killed by an undercover police officer last Thursday.

The race in New York state is as tight as it can be. The most recent poll has it a dead heat. Hillary and Rudy are each political animals, but are they each playing politics and taking unfair advantage of their positions? -- Mary.

MATALIN: Thank you, David. Welcome.

And welcome back, Wayne. You're apparently the resident Hillary defender and will likely remain throughout this campaign. We appreciate your doing so and doing such a fine job.

Now, I have to say I don't join Hillary's critics today with this White House prescription drug thing. I think that's what the first lady should be doing. What concerns me more is that after leaving the White House, that bastion of democracy, she's having a town-hall meeting tonight in Harlem, which I think is wonderful. But I haven't had a chance to ask you about the reason she keeps going to Harlem, which is to suck up to Al Sharpton.

Now, Al Sharpton has been called -- not by liberals, not by me -- a professional monger of racial hatred, a career inciter of race violence. He libeled an innocent man who he said he raped a black teenager and spread feces on her. He's incited a riot over a Jewish merchant in Harlem and which resulted in the death of seven people.

Isn't there a way to show your support of the minority community in those issues in New York without kissing the ring and other parts of Al Sharpton's anatomy?

WAYNE BARRETT, SR. EDITOR, "VILLAGE VOICE": Well, Mary, is Al Sharpton going to be there? I don't think you said that. I don't know whether or not he's going to be there and certainly...

MATALIN: But she...

BARRETT: ... going to Harlem -- there's nothing wrong with going to Harlem.

MATALIN: But she -- we were running pictures, Wayne -- I am not saying that.

BARRETT: I know she has been, as has Chuck Schumer, as has Mario Cuomo, as a matter of fact, when he ran for governor, he had -- he went from the state convention to the church where Al Sharpton was giving his -- was preaching a sermon.

So, virtually every Democrat in the state has had one sort of relationship or another with Al Sharpton. He's a powerful force in New York City politics. I don't think there's any indication she's attaching herself to Al Sharpton, who certainly has some negatives, some of which -- you went through such a long laundry list, I didn't catch them all -- but some of which I would agree are negatives.

MATALIN: OK, so you would... BARRETT: But I am saying that I don't think that there's any evidence, Mary, that he's -- she's attaching herself in some way to Al Sharpton in this campaign. I don't even know if he's going to be in Harlem when she's there tonight.

MATALIN: Let me -- well, what you maybe couldn't see, Wayne, while I was asking the question that litany was truncated, because there's so much more to say about his career of hate mongering, racial hate mongering. But -- so you're saying that guilt by association should not be a part of this campaign or any campaign, so I presume you...

BARRETT: No, I didn't say that, Mary.

MATALIN: ... also that -- disapprove -- do you disapprove the Democrats calling George W. Bush, for instance, a Pat Robertson Republican, or all of this hurrah about Bob Jones? Don't you think that...

BARRETT: No.

MATALIN: ... those sorts of guilt by association issues should be left off the table and we should just be talking about the positions of these candidates?

BARRETT: I think you raise a legitimate issue. If she was, in fact associating herself, get -- making policy decisions based on the recommendations of Al Sharpton, then that would be a legitimate issue. I don't even know whether or not he's going to be there. But I certainly don't think that Al Sharpton is calling the shots in Hillary Clinton's campaign. I don't think there's any evidence of it.

CORN: Bob...

BOB MCMANUS, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, "NEW YORK POST": Yes.

CORN: Let me get you in here and let me start with a serious issue, Patrick Dorismond, 26-year-old black man shot and killed by a New York City undercover officer last Thursday night.

What happened was he was standing on a street corner minding his own business. An officer came up to him in one of these undercover sting operations, asked if he knew where you could get marijuana, he got angry, some sort of fight started, no one knows who threw the first punch. Other officers got involved, all undercover, no one wearing uniforms, a gun went off. The guy is dead. He's the son obviously of a Haitian immigrant.

He is the father of two, and how does Rudy Giuliani react to this? He doesn't say he's sorry that this is the third time in 13 months an unarmed black man has been killed by the New York City police force. Instead, he releases the arrest records of this fellow when he was a juvenile, charges that had been dismissed, and when he was an adult he was arrested twice, each time he pled guilty to disorderly conduct. These records have nothing to do with why the police were engaged with him on Thursday night. Isn't this a tremendous abuse of office, far more serious than Filegate or even the -- Hillary using the White House as a political backdrop?

MCMANUS: Well, my understanding is the most recent report that they have released is the domestic abuse charge that his wife filed against him on February 5th or March 5th, I am not sure which. But do I think that's proper? No, I really don't. I think that it may be relevant to the case at some point in the future, but they really should not have done that.

CORN: Well, why is it Rudy Giuliani rather than dealing with the fact that his police force keeps finding themselves in this situation and black men keep finding themselves on the losing end of a police revolver -- unarmed black men -- that he resorts to this sort of smearing and demonization, what does that tell you about Rudy Giuliani? He's not really taking this problem too seriously, is he?

MCMANUS: Well, it tells you that this is a fellow who takes the cases one at a time, and this case may turn out to be another Amadou Diallo or it may turn out to be like the case that happened three weeks ago when there was a legitimate drug dealer who was trying to escape arrest with a large quantity of heroin on him, as it turned out, and there was a struggle and a gun went off and he was killed. Yes, he was unarmed, but he certainly wasn't innocent. And each case I think should be taken and judged on its own merits. This one is...

CORN: Giuliani doesn't even show any repentance or anything. It doesn't seem to concern him that these people are being killed. Do you think there should be an investigation into the release of what should be confidential privileged information?

MCMANUS: I am sure there will be an investigation of it before it's over.

CORN: Do you support it? Will "The Post" support it and write about it editorially?

MCMANUS: It would depend on the circumstances as they develop. I know that sounds like weasel words, but these are enormously complicated incidents. The police were where they were last Thursday night because there is a resurgence of drug-related gang activity on the periphery of Times Square, and this city's future right now depends upon keeping Times Square as clean and as economically viable as it is.

No sane or reasonable person is going to suggest that there should not be a police presence when gangs selling drugs show up. Is what happened to Mr. Dorismond a mistake, a tragedy, a crime? I don't know. One of the most distinguished district attorneys in New York -- rather, in the country, Robert Morganthal (ph), is investigating this. He is a man of integrity. We'll find out before it's over.

MATALIN: OK, when even Hillary is cognizant of Rudy's record, violent crime down 50 percent, crime in general down 70 percent since he has been mayor, so she has not, as David just has, taken this loony left stand that, you know, the cops are always wrong. But what Hillary's campaign has been doing of late is attacking Rudy on guns. Let me give you his position on guns.

BARRETT: Mary, do you think it's good policing to walk up to somebody who is standing there hailing a cab and say, "Do you got some smoke you can sell me?" Do you think that's good policing? Do you expect it to be done to you?

This is a man who is coming out of a bar, hailing a cab, and the police walk up to him. He's on 37th Street. He's not in the center of Times Square. He's on 37th Street on the far west end coming out of a bar. He's a security guard heading home, never been convicted of a crime, pled guilty to disorderly conduct twice in his life, which is a violation and not a crime -- do you think it's good policing, aggressive policing -- this loony lefty view, to have a cop walk up to him and say, you...

MATALIN: Wayne, here's...

BARRETT: ... do you want to buy some -- can I buy some smoke from you?

MATALIN: He has been -- he has been arrested for possession, for drugs, for assault.

BARRETT: He has never. He has...

MATALIN: He has a criminal profile.

CORN: That's not true, Mary.

MATALIN: Excuse me, David!

CORN: That's not true.

MATALIN: What I think is good policing, because the bulk of those affronted and assaulted by crime in New York have been minorities. What I think is good policing is a reduction by 70 and 50 percent respectively of crime and violent crime.

So if you're going to pick out and exploit these cases and say that the police are already -- yes, let's go back to the days of Dinkins when you couldn't walk down the street.

BARRETT: Mary, Mary, we've had -- we've had -- we had greater reductions of crime in San Diego and Boston without these kinds of aggressive tactics that are poisoning the city and polarizing the city. We had greater reductions with far fewer police and without these tactics in other cities.

MATALIN: Well, can I just say...

BARRETT: Why do we in New York have to have these kinds of police practices in order to reduce crime? The answer is we don't. Rudy thinks we do. MATALIN: Well, thank god you're not running and I'm not running and Hillary didn't have anything to say about this. I think she has enough sense to understand that the people appreciate they're living -- particularly minority people -- appreciate they're living in a better environment.

Now, I want to ask you about guns, because the campaign -- coordinated as it is with the national campaign -- is trying to have been -- exploit Rudy on guns. Here's his position on guns.

These gun owners have to be licensed. He's for mandatory trigger locks. He's for raising the purchase age from 18 to 21. He's for background checks. Yet this campaign has been attacking him for his position on guns. What -- is this going to be a campaign of...

BARRETT: It's wrong. It's wrong. Rudy has an unimpeachable record on gun control. When he was the associate attorney general of the United States in the Reagan administration, he differed from the Reagan administration on gun control. He has an unimpeachable record. I don't know why gun money is coming to them. Maybe they simply hate Clinton so much that they'll give gun money to -- to Rudy Giuliani. But Rudy Giuliani has an unimpeachable record on gun control.

MATALIN: Well, you know what? On -- to get Wayne to say something nice about Rudy Giuliani calls for a break, so we can all savor it. We will. We'll be back with two real New Yorkers talking about the Senate race of the century.

Stay with us on CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATALIN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. The first lady's unprecedented United States Senate race raises new issues every day. Hillary Rodham Clinton now has dual residence, and while she lives in New York, she still works at the White House.

Is Mrs. Clinton making history or making a mockery of the White House? Real New Yorkers weigh in. Senior editor of "The Village Voice" Wayne Barrett, and editorial page editor of the "New York Post," Bob McManus. And sitting in tonight for Bill, and equally of the loony left, David Corn of "The Nation" magazine -- David.

CORN: Excuse me if I don't say thanks for that introduction.

(LAUGHTER)

Bob McManus, let me ask you this: First, do you think it's loony to be concerned about the deaths of unarmed civilians in New York City, yes or no?

MCMANUS: No, of course not.

CORN: OK. Thank you very much. Secondly, Mary, in the first segment said that the fellow who had been shot, Patrick Dorismond had been -- his record said that he was guilty of criminal possession of drugs. Was that true or not?

MCMANUS: I'm not sure.

CORN: Because there was possession of weapons and the case was...

MATALIN: I said gun. I said gun.

(CROSSTALK)

CORN: You said it was drugs.

MATALIN: Do you want to beat this dead horse until it's glue or do you want to move on?

CORN: You know, this guy has been demonized enough. He is dead. His two kids are without a dad. I don't think we should be involved in smearing him anymore than Rudy Giuliani already has.

Now, Bob, let me move on to another Rudy Giuliani matter here. I want to ask you if you think he fights fair.

MCMANUS: Of course he does. Of course he fights fair.

CORN: OK. Well, let me -- let me -- let me give you an example...

MCMANUS: Look who he's fighting against.

CORN: ... and then you can answer both. OK, thanks.

In a fund-raising letter he recently sent out, he said this: "Hillary Clinton believes it's OK to use taxpayer funds to subsidize religious expression so long as it involves the desecration of religious symbols." And he also said in the same letter that she was part of some elite that is waging war against America's religious heritage.

Now, do you think that's actually true?

MCMANUS: Is this a fund-raising letter we're talking about? Well, let me ask you this.

CORN: Yes, that's right, that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) signed from his Senate campaign, not independent. Is it true?

MCMANUS: Hillary Clinton has made 75 trips to New York City on government airplanes at an average cost of $20,000 a trip and has reimbursed the federal government $30,000 to $35,000. And this goes into the question of what's fair fighting on this.

Regarding the fund-raising letter, yes. I mean, this is -- this is -- you know, politics ain't bean bag, as they say.

CORN: Is -- can you give me an example of how Hillary has waged war against America's religious heritage? That's what Rudy says. MCMANUS: Well, as I said, I'm not going to defend this letter, because I frankly have never seen it. But I will tell you this. He is in a fight with people who will use every advantage that incumbency in the White House offers, marshaling -- in the process of marshaling virtually the entire federal government to bring to bear.

Most recently over the weekend, the president announces as a matter of national policy that he's adopting a proposal to create a northeast petroleum reserve that she had first raised in February a couple of months ago. The -- the secretary of housing and urban development comes in at a time when there's a heavy debate going on over -- over municipal homeless policy and announces that he's ripping $60 million out of the city budget because he doesn't like the way the mayor is running housing programs.

His wife, Kerry Kennedy Cuomo, that night explicitly endorses what he did and said this is -- this is how we're going to get Hillary into the White House or keep -- I'm sorry -- Hillary into the Senate or keep Rudy out of it. I forget which.

Just about that time, another Kennedy was announcing that the federal -- the EPA was closing in on the city's water supply, because it didn't like the way that Giuliani was monitoring it.

MATALIN: OK. Well, let's say that this is not -- the White House is not being used just on behalf of the Senate campaign, but Al Gore. But Wayne, let me ask you something, because you're a really good politician, that the issue that raised a lot of journalists' hackles and piqued their curiosity -- let me say that, not just Republican vast right-wing conspiracy members -- was the $50,000 raised by the Pak PAC, the Pakistani Americans. This was an event that was moved up, so say the organizers, to precede the president's event, or rather trip to India. And their central issue is that Pakistan be added to his itinerary and it was.

So let's just say it was sheer coincidence that they raised money for Hillary. Their central issue is that the president include Pakistan in his itinerary, he did. Let's say that's coincidence.

Don't you think as a good politician if she is saying that there was no connection she should avoid the appearance of there being a connection? What's 50 grand and a $25,000,000 raise? She could have done it after the trip.

BARRETT: It's a bad appearance, Mary, and I hope you're going to say the same this week when on March 23rd, Rudy's going to host a fund raiser where you have to pay $50,000 just to say hello to him for his soft money campaign, and it's not just going to be one $50,000 drop on the table, it's going to be many.

And I'll bet you every one of the people that comes there that has $50,000 to lay on the table for Rudy does business with the city of New York. I guarantee that every one of them will be that way. And you know what? You're supposed to spend $20,000 if you want to drink with him. I wonder if people, because the guy is getting so surly these days, I wonder if they spend $30 not to have the drink with him, but then to still get...

MATALIN: You're not, no....

BARRETT: ... the access that they'll get at City Hall.

MATALIN: ... to answer your question, Wayne, I am not going to raise it because I am of those -- of that ilk that thinks you should be able to raise unlimited, spend unlimited amounts of money. I'm a constitutional campaign finance reformer. My question is the issue of Mrs. Clinton exploiting the White House for her race in New York. It is a problem for her.

BARRETT: I said to you, Mary, I think that the -- that she shouldn't have had the Staten Island fund raiser where she raised 50, and she -- and it does create the bad appearance.

I have got to remind you, though, that last year, 1998, 1999, Rudy was at war with Pakistani taxi drivers, with Pakistani street vendors. Most of the cab drivers in New York are Pakistanis these days. I'll bet you there's a natural anti-Rudy constituency. He blocked all the tunnels, he blocked all the bridges so that these taxi drivers couldn't make it into the city.

MATALIN: There is so...

MCMANUS: They'll come out and vote for him just to get him out of the city and...

MATALIN: All right, guys. We will -- you will both be back. This race is not going away. It's as exciting as anything we've seen across the country. Thank you so much for joining us. The "Village Voice" and the "New York Post" proudly represented by their senior editors there.

When we come back in a very short minute here, David Corn of the "loony left" and I will be back to assess once again this race of the century.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATALIN: You know, David, I was really moved by your passionate defense of this tragic shooting. But the allegation that either I or Rudy Giuliani are desecrating a member -- the memory of this guy is such a typical and despicable tactic of the left.

CORN: That's exactly what's happening.

MATALIN: I don't see you being moved when...

CORN: That's exactly what's happening.

MATALIN: ... Rudy Giuliani and the cops in New York...

CORN: He's releasing information.

MATALIN: ... let me finish -- are being called racist and bigots and they're motivated by bigotry, I don't see the people on the left...

CORN: They -- That's exactly...

MATALIN: ... getting all gassed up about that kind of desecration.

CORN: This was an innocent man who was killed for no good reason, and they're putting out slanderous information about him, and you're participating in it tonight.

MATALIN: No, I am not participating in it. I want to hear some of the same kind of passion when the cops who are saving lives are called racists and bigots.

CORN: I want to hear you say some sympathy for this guy or rather than just name call.

MATALIN: I didn't call him names. His record is that he was arrested.

CORN: You say he supports the "looney left" of concerns.

MATALIN: No, I called you a member of the "loony left" not for that concern, but for your leftist socialist archaic ideas.

CORN: Which came up all on stage tonight, right?

Sitting in on the left, I am David Corn, good night for CROSSFIRE.

MATALIN: And from the right, I am Mary Matalin. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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