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Larry King Live Weekend

David Crosby Discusses Activism; Karen Shanor Delves Into the Brain; Rosemary Altea Shows the Power Within; T.D. Jakes Maximizes and Motivates

Aired March 25, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, mixing entertainment and activism -- musician David Crosby will join me from Dallas with a new book, "Stand and Be Counted." In L.A., the famed medium and healer, Rosemary Altea. She wants you to know that you own the power. And also in Dallas, preacher, motivator, T.D. Jakes. His message is "Maximize the Moment." And in Washington, Dr. Karen Nesbit Shanor, "Exploring Our Last Frontier: The Emerging Mind." They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening. And welcome to another edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Four great guests tonight.

We begin with our pal David Crosby. He's in Dallas. And David's new book is "Stand and Be Counted: Making Music, Making History."

Is this your biography, David?

DAVID CROSBY, AUTHOR, "STAND AND BE COUNTED": No, no, I wrote the biography a while ago. As a matter of fact, I wrote it too soon, going to have to write a second part. This is a story about activism, people doing -- you know, working for causes, things they believe in.

KING: And your involvement in such?

CROSBY: Well, not so much me, you know. I notice that nobody had written a book about peace marches, civil rights demonstrations, benefits and connected it all up. I noticed that there wasn't anything about that. So my partner David Bender and I decided that we'd write a book, and then it became a documentary as well, and we've just, as a matter of fact, we've just gotten that on the Learning Channel in August. But we just found it was a fascinating thing. I've always been -- go ahead.

KING: I know you've always been involved. I want owe ask you about that. You also did a song about it as well.

CROSBY: Yes, there's a song about it. I normally can't do that, but I did write one called "Stand and Be Counted," and we're doing it in the CSNY shows. It's on a record, but it's going down better in the shows than it went on the record I think actually.

KING: Is this a story only about famous people who stand and be counted, or is it about just people standing and being counted?

CROSBY: Well you know, we start with -- we talk about a lot of them, the most visible ones, you know, the people that you know. But we do talk about the people in the trenches who really are the heroes of this thing, who work, you know, tirelessly to try and make things better. It seems to be a naturally occurring phenomenon in human beings, which really is very reassuring. I like that about it.

KING: But can we still say that a very small percentage of the population gets involved to the to the point of standing up, being counted, volunteering, going somewhere?

CROSBY: You know, I don't know what percentage it is, but when you see acts of exemplary humanity, when you see people being courageous, when you see people sticking up for what they believe in, it has a tremendous effect. You know, you see the effect of Gandhi on the life of the people in India. You see Martin Luther King, the effect that he had by being courageous. The single person standing up for what they believe in can have a tremendous effect.

KING: And you can also see us with Nazi Germany when people don't do it, the reverse effect?

CROSBY: Yes, yes, the -- I don't know how people do that, but silence is a terrible thing in the face of injustice. I don't know how you do that.

KING: You've always been stand up with regard to racism, segregation. A lot of musicians have. Is it true that you wrote that Belafonte was one of the first?

CROSBY: Belafonte was one of my first heroes musically, and he was probably one of the best interviews that we did. He's like a walking history book, and the man is so lucid, and so informed and such a gentlemen; he has such dignity. You know, I had a fortunate thing happen to me. I realized that I should ask these people not how many they did or which ones they did, but why they did them. And in asking them why they did these, I got, you know, to the heart of what made them, you know, what moved them. And you find out things about people that you love all through this book that you wouldn't have known otherwise, I think.

KING: How many interviews did you conduct?

CROSBY: About 45 maybe, something like that, all the way from Pete Seeger to young artist, you know, like Eddie Vetter and Michael Stipe.

KING: Is there a singular thread in the "why" answer that ran through all or most of them?

CROSBY: Is there a single thread? You know, I think just the courage to stick up for what you believe in. I think these people all had the courage, and I think that's the connecting thread.

KING: I remember when Belafonte was booked into a new hotel in Miami Beach, and at that time, they didn't take blacks in hotels on Miami Beach, and he had his whole troop with him, and he wouldn't check-in, and refused to go somewhere else or the hotel would not have had an opening, and he broke the color barrier through economics.

CROSBY: He's a very brave man. You know, and the people who fought the civil rights fight weren't just risking their time and their career; they were risking their lives. Over and over again, the people that walked with Dr. King and worked in the voter registration drives and in the great March on Washington, they were risking their lives down there, there's no question about it.

KING: Why so many musicians and activism, do you think?

CROSBY: You know, I don't know. It makes my kind of proud, but I can't say as we're different from other people. I think we're pretty much like other people. Maybe you just notice us because there's a focus on us, and when we do, you know, say, gee, that's not right, or here's an exemplary person, let's you know, follow their example, people notice us, you know, and -- but I think the courage is there in most people.

KING: And a lot of times, not to be cute, musicians march to their own drummer?

CROSBY: Yes. Well, we are independent sorts, yes.

KING: Our guest is David Crosby. His new book is "Stand and Be Counted: Making Music, Making History," written with David Bender.

Back with more of David Crosby, and then we'll talk about Rosemary Altea and the world of up there, mediums, and spirituality and healing and the like.

Don't go away.


KING: We're back with David Crosby.

Do you write about what John and Yoko have done, with regard to peace?

CROSBY: Yes. We interviewed Yoko, and we've got quotes from John quite a bit. You know, he was a very active guy, enough to where he scared the government. That's one of the funny things.

We interviewed a lot of people that stick up for what they believe in, you know, as I said, Pete Seeger was a great one.

KING: Great man.

CROSBY: Yes, a great man. I think they should give a course in Pete Seeger in school.

KING: Yes, he's an a American treasure.

CROSBY: He is. Sting, John Henley, Elton John, Peter Gabriel.

KING: By the way, what about the young rock performers today, the ones we saw winning Grammys, are they involved?

CROSBY: Yes, we have quite a few of those. We have Michael Stipe from REM. We have Eddie Vetter from Pearl Jam. We have Adam Yauch from Beastie Boys. We had Tracy Chapman, and Jewel and a number of other, you know, performers that are, you know, currently very popular, and they seem to have no trouble finding their way to causes that they believe in and things that they want to accomplish, you know, in this world. I was very proud of them.

KING: David, how about compassion fatigue? Is there a chance that we have too many musicians, too many causes, too much already?

CROSBY: You know, I've heard that phrase, and I don't really think so. I think if you walk down any street in the United States, you can't go more than a couple of hundred yards without seeing something you could make better or somebody whose life you could help, and I think that's a natural, you know, thing in good human beings, people of conscience, to want to do that. And what we found, you know, was that the it makes your life better, that the musicians didn't just affect a cause, that working for a cause affected the musician, you know.

And it's not just musicians; I should include, you know, Robin Williams and Whoopi Goldberg, who we talked about the benefits that they do also.

As a matter of fact, Whoopi is the reason we wound up doing a documentary. I said, will you do this book? And she said, yes, but you have to bring your camera. So we wound up making a documentary. It's going to be to the Learning Channel in August, the 23rd and 22nd I think.

KING: In conjunction with the book? That's a great idea. We look forward to it.

Would you say that "We Are the World" was the best example of the global experience, the getting together of the most people to do one thing with regard to hunger?

CROSBY: I think it was a brilliant, you know, example, yes, and we write about that. There's, you know -- there were probably more major stars in one room than had ever happened before or since anywhere, and I love Quincy's, you know, famous quote, you know, "Check your ego at the door." I think Quincy did had a great job of putting that together. That and Live Aide I think are both great examples.

KING: David, I salute you, look forward to the book and the documentary, continued good health.

CROSBY: Thank you, Larry. It's fun to be on again. I'll see you again.

KING: And continued fatherhood.

CROSBY: OK, thank you.

KING: My man David Crosby. The book is "Stand and Be Counted: Making Music, Making History," by David Crosby and David Bender. The publisher is Harper San Francisco.

Rosemary Altea is next.

Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE -- we've got four terrific books on tonight -- Rosemary Altea, and her book is "You Own the Power," from Eaglebrook Publishing. There's a recorded tape as well. She's the famed spiritual medium and healer, bestselling author.

What do we mean by "own the power"? To what?

ROSEMARY ALTEA, AUTHOR, "YOU OWN THE POWER": We all have the power within us to be the most spiritual, to connect with the spirit world. We don't know this. We don't understand this. We talk from an early age that there's no such thing as e-the ghost, there's no such thing as the spirit world, et cetera, et cetera. What I'm saying is every one of us has the power within us, but we have to own it, we have to take it, we have to use it.

KING: How do you know that.

ALTEA: Oh, I know these things, Larry.

KING: But how do you know we have the power? I mean, you know you may have the power.

ALTEA: Every human being is born with the gift to heal, every single one of us. Every human being that I've ever met, that I've ever spoken to -- many, many thousands and thousands -- and I know this because my guide in the spirit world tells me so. I know this because of what I do and who I am.

KING: From what age did you know this?

ALTEA: Since I can remember, since I was a little girl.

KING: So your earliest memory was...

ALTEA: It was my earliest memory, and I was terrified of it. And I was terrified to own my power. It took me 34 years to own my power.

KING: It's scary.

ALTEA: Terribly frightening, for everybody. And I think that, you know, you must get thousands of letters a phone calls from people all over the world when we talk about this subject, telling their experiences. Everyone has had an experience or knows of someone who has had an experience.

KING: "Power" is an interesting word. It can be for good, or it can be for bad power. Can people who use their own power -- if you can heal, can you make someone sick?

ALTEA: Oh yes.

KING: You can?

ALTEA: And actually in the book, in "You Own the Power," I do talk about how we can in fact use the power that we have in a negative way, to control other people, and I also tell in the book how you can stop that from happening to you, how you can let --- how you can stop other people from influencing you negatively.

KING: What's the biggest stopgap that people face in owning their own power? What gets in the way the most?

ALTEA: They don't believe in themselves, and they don't know how to do it. So what I've done in this book, is I've given some exercises.

KING: Actual exercises?

ALTEA: Actual, very simple, very basic exercises -- learning to connect with your palm centers, learning to...

KING: Palm of your hand?

ALTEA: Yes, palm of your hand. See in that little center there are what we call tracker points or energy centers. Everyone has energy centers all over the body. How do you find them? How do you know what to do with them?

KING: You give us exercises as to how?

ALTEA: Give complete exercises to how to do that, how every one of us has an energy field around us, an aura. This aura is made up of many different colors. We can influence our aura. Our aura is who we are and what we are. So I give exercises as to how we can paint the aura.

KING: What's the advantage in having the power, since for so long, you didn't like having it?

ALTEA: Oh, the advantage is I am my own self. I understand that I'm one little human being. I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm allowed to be a human being. But I'm a spiritual being, and I understand, and I know what the power of knowing that gives to me. It gives me the confidence and the ability to be whoever I want to be. It gives me the confidence and the ability to teach my child. You have children. You have another one coming along. How are you going teach these children about the world, this material world that we live in? How are you going teach them how to deal with that material world, as well as being their own sensitive, human selves? We have to teach our children how to be spiritual without saying, you know, be spiritual. Understand it's not going to take away from your life. It's not going take away from being less of a person.

I was always told when I was a child, you're too sensitive, you're oversensitive. As I grew up, I was told by my ex-husband, you're oversensitive, you're too sensitive.

We want our children to be sensitive. We want our children to learn, to understand that it's OK to be sensitive. There's no such thing as too sensitive. But what do we teach our children to do with that sensitivity? In this book, we learn what we can do to develop our sensitivity, but be strong by it. Sensitivity is a strength, not a weakness.

KING: You liked "The Sixth Sense" then, didn't you?

ALTEA: "The Sixth Sense" is my story. I think we had this conversation before.

KING: We did when the movie was out.

ALTEA: Absolutely. I loved "The Sixth Sense." Of course, I adore Bruce Willis, but I loved "The Sixth Sense," and I love the story that it tells. It's about a boy who has these abilities, has these gifts and is terrified by them. I was that child.

KING: That was you?

ALTEA: That is me, totally me. And so in the book, I try to say. You know, there are many, many others like me out there. I'm not that unusual. The boy in the movie is not that unusual.

KING: If we all had the power, though, wouldn't be kind of wacky?

ALTEA: Well, I'm not suggesting that we all have the kind of power that I have or the kind of -- Everyone has their own power in their own way. Look, Larry, you have the power, and you have dared to be powerful future. You have dared to be successful. But most people don't dare to be. Most people don't know how to be.

KING: More in a minute with Rosemary Altea. She's the renowned spiritual medium and healer, best-selling author, and the new one is "You Own the Power."

Back with Rosemary after this.


KING: The famed Peter Herkos (ph), the late psychic, brilliant man, said he hated the power, he hated knowing that he could tap into other people. All of his days were boggling.

Are there moments you hate it? ALTEA: No, I never hate it, but there are moments when I do feel really weighed down with it, but the moments that I feel weighed down with it are only momentary because the joy that comes from this, and you know, the joy of sharing it, the joy of taking it out there to people who don't understand...

KING: You had in this book -- there are two extraordinary instances I want to bring up, because it is an extraordinary book, but we have limited time. You have a spirit conversation with one of the victims of TWA 800.

ALTEA: I do.

KING: They tell you about the crash.

ALTEA: They do.

KING: Describe what happened.

ALTEA: They do, absolutely. And I think my point is, you know, we spent thousands of taxpayer dollars trying to investigate all kinds of things that go on here. If only the people would come to someone like me. And what do are they going to lose? They don't have to pay me.

KING: What did they tell you that was most interesting about the crash?

ALTEA: Well, the thing that was most interesting from my point of view was that, you know, they all survived, and I was able to see that whole plane full of people. I saw them all after the crash, after they had died, and I was able to see them all, joining with their families in the spirit world, being reunited with the families in the spirit world.

The most interesting thing, technically, from our point of view, from the human point of view, would be that really, really strong smell of smoke just prior to the plane exploding. And it was so incredible. If I had more time with these people, I know I could have located where that was coming from. I've done this before many, many times.

KING: So you can find the cause and effect?


You also conversed with two brothers who died in a Nazi camp. Now did they come into you? How did it begin? Did you talk to a relative?

ALTEA: No. I went to give a lecture at a Jewish community center, and didn't even think about the Holocaust, quite frankly. I didn't really think that there would be questions like this, and the woman in the audience asked me, can you see my father, and can you tell me how he is? And that's how it began. And I saw standing next to her father and her father's brother, both of whom died in the gas chambers, and they took me back into that concentration camp, even though I was sitting in that audience of people, I was also in that concentration camp, and I describe in the book what I saw, what I felt. It was the most Godless place I've ever been in, but the ending is wonderful.

KING: We all want to know we're going somewhere.


KING: That helps you, doesn't it? I mean by helps you, in that we want to believe you, but our logic gets in the way, because we've never seen anyone come back.

ALTEA: Well, yes we did. We saw Christ come back. Now come on.

KING: Some people said they saw him.

ALTEA: OK, well, I believe that Christ came back.

But you know. when I first began this, I was so afraid that it wasn't real or I would get it wrong somehow, because I had a real fear that I didn't want to tell people something that wasn't true. But the most important thing to me is, I don't want to believe something that isn't true. I don't want to fool myself. I don't want to fool myself. But mostly, I don't want to fool myself. So I'm the most skeptical person you could wish to meet. And I've questioned thousands and thousands of times, even as I was writing this book, every time I write a new book, every time I talk to someone, I question, is it real? Is it true? And I come up with the answer, absolutely, it is.

KING: Have you seen some people you met who didn't believe or don't think about this who you saw get the power?

ALTEA: Yes, we all have the power, Larry. We're born with the power.

KING: But have you actually seen an individual you've taken, who'll say, I don't know what you're talking about, and then two months later has the power.

ALTEA: Well, not two months later. We have the power, but we have to learn to develop the power. But I have students -- I run a healing organization in the U.K. And I have students who have come to me struggling and kicking as patients, I don't believe this, but my wife says I have to come, or my husband says I have to come, and they haven't believed and have refused to accept that there is such a thing as healing power, but then they have been on the receiving end of it, and then they become my students, and then they have done these exercises, very simple, very basic, very easy exercises. You don't have to be a genius to do them. And I have seen them grow to be very fine and wonderful healers. Most of my organization is made up of people who didn't believe or didn't want to believe in the spirit world.

KING: When you say healing, you mean changing disease? ALTEA: Yes. You know, healing comes in many forms. The greatest part of my healing work is to be able to help someone who is dying, to be able to cross the threshold between this life and the next life without fear, without pain. That's a great healing, but I've also been fortunate enough to be part of a healing where a tumor has been reduced to the size of a pea and then cut out of someone, like a tumor which is, you know, large enough to...

KING: Can you help yourself?

ALTEA: I do, all the time.

KING: So if you have a sickness?

ALTEA: I do all the time. I tell people I would be in a wheelchair by now if I didn't give myself healing.

KING: You're an amazing woman. As always, great seeing you.

ALTEA: Thank you, Larry.

KING: We love having you on.

ALTEA: Thank you.

KING: Rosemary Altea, her new book "You Own the Power" from Eaglebrook.

When we come back, T.D. Jakes. His new one is "Maximize the Moment: God's Action Plan for Your Life," then Dr. Karen Shanor on the brain.

Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE one of my favorite people, T.D. Jakes. His new book is "Maximize the Moment: God's Action Plan For Your Life," from Putnam. T.D. is the famed preacher, author, entrepreneur and the founder and pastor of Potter's House in Dallas.

Explain the title T.D., "Maximize the Moment."

T.D. JAKES, AUTHOR, "MAXIMIZE THE MOMENT": "Maximize the Moment" is a very powerful concept that I believe that is essential, particularly for busy people.

I believe that we all have certain moments in our lives that are pivotal points, turning points in our lives, and that if we maximize those moments with creativity, with resourcefulness, with being industrial in every aspect of our lives. We can then benefit, both spiritually, naturally, economically and every area of our lives, as we appreciate those significant moments in our lives.

KING: How do we know the moment is the moment? JAKES: I think that's a very important question. That's what I began to write about in the book is to recognize those moments, first of all, by recognizing that whenever we get to these turning points in our lives that we don't minimize or fail to appreciate every opportunity that is given to us to produce what is inside of us intrinsically. Those opportunities are innately delivered in such a way that we recognize, this is my moment, this is my chance. I believe we instinctively know it and feel it on the inside, but we don't always maximize it to its fullest capacity.

KING: How did you find it for you?

JAKES: There's been several moments in my life that were defining moments in my life, moments that I sensed on the inside, this is your chance, this is your opportunity. If you've got something to say, say it now. I think those things are spiritually discerned. They come through understanding that there is a master plan for your life.

My faith is a significant part of that, and understanding that God does have a plan for our lives, and then how we react to that plan and how we benefit from that plan is the result of our submission to it and our ability to maximize it.

KING: Do you think the tough upbringing -- you had a very tough upbringing, did you not?

JAKES: Yes, I did.

KING: Life was not pleasant for young -- help you the find this?

JAKES: Oh, it's very, very important. I think it has a whole lot to do. I think that our character is determined much more by our struggle than it is by our success. The success, if it is painted on the life of a person who has not gone through a struggle, there is an attitude of grandiosity and superiority that taints success. I'm grounded in the rich soil of struggle and turmoil not only for me but for my parents and for my ancestry all culminates in this moment. And it is for them and it is for my parents and all that I've been taught that I live and maximize the moments that they helped to define and pay for in my life.

KING: The concept of voices within, you write about that. Can you explain that?

JAKES: I think better than a voice within is an understanding of an inner awareness that we have that comes from our connection, our prayer life, our communion with God, that this is a defining moment. We don't necessarily always hear an audible voice but an innate sensitivity, whether you're doing business or whether you're raising your children that this is a defining moment and how I react as a the father or how I react as a teacher or a businessman at this moment will be a defining moment. And all of us have those inner awareness on the inside, but particularly people of prayer.

KING: How, T.D. -- based on your upbringing, you would have bet against it -- did you find your own spirituality?

JAKES: My spirituality came as a result of watching my father die of kidney disease, being raised at an early age, confronting adult issues as it relates to death and life and sickness, raised in a house with a kidney machine and a person whose health was failing before my eyes. It is amidst those moments of pain that we grope and grovel almost like a blind man feeling around in a room for something solid.

KING: Wouldn't that make you want to not believe?

JAKES: Oh, no, no, to the contrary. It is a groping for answers that causes us to discover faith. The blind man doesn't stop walking because he can't see, he just uses what he has to feel what he cannot see. And so that's where faith is born. When sight is limited, faith is born.

KING: What do you mean by God's action plan for your life?

JAKES: Well, I think one of the things that's very, very important in my own life, as we have struggled -- as you know, we've been deeply involved in community outreach at the Potter's House in Dallas and trying to use our faith-based ministry to reach our community and rehabilitate the young people, everything from that to I've produced a play that's getting ready to appear at the Apollo.

My hands have been full. And in order to maximize the moment, I had to manage my life. Life requires management. We are not always taught that life is not as natural as we perceive. I talk about managing your life, maximizing your moment, minimizing your liabilities. All of those fit into the context of a divine plan, and as we pray and as we seek God, we become aware and more cognizant of the fact that it is not mere happenstance, but there is a plan and a strategy.

KING: If you do something different or out of the ordinary, are you changing the plan?

JAKES: I think you don't change the master plan. You may deviate, and in deviating from the plan you may delay the process. And many of us have gone through things that delayed us and set us back, and we have a feeling -- particularly at this age and stage of life, mid-life -- of having to recapture and catapult ourselves past the mistakes that we made in earlier years.

For me, I believe that life begins at 40, perhaps because now I begin to understand what to worry about, what not to worry about. And I have identified moments in my life that I did miss opportunities, and now I seize life with the tenacity of somebody who almost drowned.

KING: We'll be right back with more of T.D. Jakes, author of "Maximize the Moment," and then the famed psychologist Dr. Karen Shiner -- Shanor, rather, talks about "The Emerging Mind" a terrific book.

We'll be right back with T.D. Jakes after this.


KING: T.D. Jakes, by the way, has his only week -- has is own weekly television show, seen on Trinity Broadcasting and on BET, Black Entertainment TV. His other books have included "The Lady, Her Lover, and Her Lord," "Daddy Loves His Girl" and others. And he talks in this book, "Maximize the Moment," about the three "D" partnerships: diversity, direction and deliberate explanation -- explain.

JAKES: I think that we do have a deliberate destination, that we have to have a goal. If we don't have a goal, we can't monitor success, that we can't get up out of the bed every morning and just hope things go well, that we have to have a goal and a directive, and we have to deliberately move toward that goal.

I talk in the book about decisions, the power of decisions. Everything that I'm dealing with today is the result of the decisions I made yesterday, so I talk about the 10 steps to making great decisions. Surrounding yourself with proper information is one of those things that leads to great decisions. You cannot make great decisions if they're based on poor information. One of them is never go to battles where there are no spoils. If there's nothing to be gained, there's nothing to be fought about. Understanding when to have conflict and when to hold it, when to fold it and, Larry, when to walk away. All of those things determine our destiny.

KING: You dedicate the book to Edith P. Jakes. Who is that?

JAKES: Odeth P. Jakes. She's...

KING: Oh, I'm sorry.

JAKES: Yes, she's my mother. And I wrote the book while my mother was dying of Alzheimer's. And I was preaching and teaching and running several producing companies that I own, publishing, producing companies and preaching and teaching and doing workshops and coming home and trying to feed apple sauce to my mother, whose health was failing and mind was slipping away like layers off of an onion. And anybody who's ever dealt with Alzheimer's knows that you're losing just a little piece of them every day. A very painful experience, but it is also the pains of life that produces the power. And, quite frankly, as I wrote, I was being squeezed. And the squeezing process produces wisdom, life, pain, strength, power, proverbs. All of it comes outs of that pain.

KING: Doesn't it also, T.D., when you see someone having Alzheimer's, not getting better, the long goodbye, doesn't it cause you some doubt in a God?

JAKES: Not at all. I think that for me my faith in God helped me to survive that moment. All that my mother taught me about God from the very early stages of my life culminated in that moment. We worshipped together. My mother could remember hymns right down to the end. We would sing songs together. It was my faith in God that comforted me when I faced a pain that was so unbearable and so unbelievable. And though I was in the clergy and did my first funeral at 19, I still was not aware that life could be so painful as it was as I kissed my mother goodbye and, as I said in the book, put my parents to bed. It's in the face of that -- and many of my generation is going through that right now, that we need our faith to give us foundation.

KING: Do you know why most people don't maximize their moments?

JAKES: I think that there are two paradigms here. On one side, business people are so engrossed with facts that they ignore faith. People who are engrossed with faith are so involved with faith that they ignore business principles. I tried to bring both of those two things together, because many business people at the opiate of success find out that without spirituality they are bankrupt inwardly. And many people who are spiritual find out that without business principles we cannot catapult our faith in the 21st century. So "Maximize the Moment" brings faith and formulas together to a crescendo of maximizing and appreciating every moment of life and benefiting in it and passing it on to our children.

KING: So you can have materialistic success and not lose spirituality or lose the right path?

JAKES: I believe that God doesn't mind us having things, he minds things having us. And it's very, very important that there is a distinction between you being motivated by the things of life or being motivated by the deeper riches, which comes from the inside. If you identify the deeper riches of life, you begin to understand that the outer riches are trivia, not to be not disregarded, ignored or not appreciated, but not to be worshipped or honored...

KING: And you write...

JAKES: ... to keep it in its proper perspective.

KING: You write, learn to let go so you can fly.


KING: The hardest thing to do, right? Letting go?

JAKES: Letting go, releasing pains, minimizing liabilities, letting go of your fear, letting go of your past, letting go of your inhibitions so that you can soar in the wings and in the wind of this moment. And the moment is a wind and it will get beneath you, but it will not let you fly if you don't let go. Fear is a great problem that stops many people from maximizing the moments of life.

KING: Thanks, as always, T.D.. Great seeing you.

JAKES: Thank you. I enjoyed it, Larry.

KING: T.D. Jakes, the book is "Maximize the Moment: God's Action Plan for Your Life," published by Putnam.

And we'll close out our show with Dr. Karen Shanor. Her new book is "The Emerging Mind," co-written and edited by Karen Nesbitt, published by Renaissance Books. It's all about up here and where we're going with this thing called the brain. Dr. Shanor is next.

Don't go away.


KING: Our guest is an old friend, Dr. Karen Shanor, the clinical psychologist, best-selling author, was one of the first of the radio psychologists in this country, the author of a terrific new book called "The Emerging Mind." It's published by Renaissance, and it's based on a Smithsonian lecture series. Explain that, Karen, this lecture series.

DR. KAREN SHANOR, AUTHOR, "THE EMERGING MIND": Well, several years ago, we decided we needed to know more about not only the brain but how does the brain tune into consciousness, to tune into the thought waves all around us? And so I did a Smithsonian lecture series and brought in internationally recognized authorities on the brain, different people who talked about different areas of the brain. And in addition to Deepak Chopra, whom most of you all know, I had Dr. Karl Pribram, who probably of anybody in the world knows most about the brain. He studied it all of his years. He's now 81. He was my professor at Stanford. He's been 30 years ahead of most of the research on the brain. I -- we talked about the brain and how it is affected by sleep, what happens when we sleep, why do we dream, and why do we forget our dreams?

So much of this then resulted in an exciting, probably one of the most popular, Smithsonian series that they had.

KING: Yes.

SHANOR: And it was a shame to waste all of this. Dr. Frank Putnam was talking about states of consciousness and multiple personalities and what happens to our mind, what happens in thought.

KING: So...

SHANOR: And since then, Larry, there has been so much astounding research on the mind and thought waves that it almost sounds like science fiction but it's true.

KING: A famed heart surgeon told me once, if he was starting over today, he'd be a neurologist, because the brain is -- we're just learning about it, true?

SHANOR: Very true. However, much of what we have been focusing on are the neurons and the electrical system of the brain and how the physical part of the brain works. Now we're also focusing on the larger part. How does the brain, just like a radio set, how does it bring in information? What happens to thought waves?

For example, most of us have had the experience where we thought about somebody and then they call on the telephone or they write us a letter. We now know scientifically not only that this does happen, we now think we know how it happens. And that's exciting research we're talking about now. KING: And do we know a lot more about the chemistry of the brain when we talk about, well, with all the discoveries of Prozac and the like, that we can change the way people have acted and behaved through changing chemical reaction of the brain? Yet they say that they know that it works, but not how it works.

SHANOR: Well, we know a bit about how it works, but we know something even more astounding. And Dr. Candice Pert (ph) was one of the first people, at the National Institute of Health, to show this. And that is not only how the chemicals of our brain affect our thoughts, but how our thoughts affect the chemicals of the brain. The minute you have a thought, you immediately change millions -- billions of molecules in your system and even around you. So it's an interactive brain that we have from the minute we're born. And what we do, what we think -- it's not only be careful what you wish for, it's now be careful what you think about, because it may occur.

KING: You write -- and by the way, this is a terrific book -- ongoing studies will very likely confirm that our thoughts not only interpret but can create our own physical reality -- explain.

SHANOR: Absolutely. When we get into the area of quantum physics, which goes way beyond the physical world of the senses that we're all aware of, now quantum physicists are working with us to understand what happens at the wave level, thought waves, what happens there? And it's very, very exciting. As I said, our thoughts can eventually create things. They create molecules. If we have a thought about -- a thought of fear, we immediately create many fear molecules, or adrenaline, something in our system to deal with that fear.

We can go away beyond that, because nothing has been created, nothing has occurred in the human world without our thinking about it first and creating it in some way.

KING: Where did you come up with the terrific title, "The Emerging Mind," as if it wasn't there before?

SHANOR: Right. Well, the title means that we're breaking through a lot of the limits that we thought we had in the mind. It's as if we've always had these possibilities -- and many cultures have known this -- but Western science hasn't been able to understand it until recently, now that we have the technology, now that we have, for example, MRIs and we know how to create holograms of the body. We know that the brain is also a hologram in many ways. So the technology of science has caught up with what many of us kind of knew about anyway, especially the deep, deep layers of the mind.

KING: They all weigh, the brain, three to four pounds, right? The human brain?


KING: Do we know why he is smarter than him and he thinks differently than her? SHANOR: Well, we know that we're born with certain aspects, but we also know that, in fact, even in terms of gender, much of this is the interactive brain. From even before we're born, the experiences we have affect how we perceive the world, how we interact with the world. I have a whole chapter on the child's mind and the interactive brain and what parents can do...

KING: Yes.

SHANOR: ... to prevent ADD or to help it along, what we can do to have better lives, deal with depression, prevent depression, without having to take medication, in fact.

KING: And we've made great strides, right?

SHANOR: Oh, absolutely. It is an exciting time. The information that we have and what we're now understanding about ourselves and the mind -- for example, let me give you one thing. When we're talking about what happens to a thought when it goes out there, very possibly it goes along the line of what happened in "Star Trek" -- remember, beam me up, Scotty?

KING: Yes.

SHANOR: When somebody would suddenly disappear and reappear again? Well, last year, scientists were able to take a little packet of energy in the laboratory, have it disappear and reappear again somewhere. That's often what happens to our thoughts.


SHANOR: And they travel endlessly. We get beyond time and space in a lot of this.

KING: Back with more of Dr. Karen Shanor. Her book, "The Emerging Mind" published by Renaissance.

I'm Larry King. Don't go away.


KING: Dr. Karen Shanor, in your book, "The Emerging Mind," you write about using breathing and posture to alter mental states -- meaning?

SHANOR: Absolutely. We talk about how to change your moods, different things that we can do so that we don't have to rely on drugs, unnecessarily many times.

For example, we know even taking a deep slow breath, we know the chemistry behind that now, how in fact it shifts the system. It is very, very helpful. You immediately have a different mood, a different feeling. Or posture. You know, if somebody's walking like this and looking really glum, there's a big difference between that -- even if you see them across the room -- and you see somebody who looks confident, who feels good about themselves. And it works both ways. Even if you don't feel good about yourself, if you act as if you do then you change the chemistry in your mind. You change your perception.

KING: And then you do feel it.

SHANOR: And people...

KING: So you can change your mood?

SHANOR: And people deal with you differently -- exactly.

KING: How about dreams? You can't do seminars like this and not talk about dreams.

SHANOR: Well, we have a whole section. Dr. Jayne Gackenbach talks about the sleep and consciousness, what really happens to our mind, why sleep is so good for us for one thing. During the non-REM time, when we don't have the rapid eye movements, we're actually maintaining -- it's like we have somebody fixing up our body again, getting everything back in shape for the next day. During the rapid eye movement times -- and a few other times, too -- we usually have dreams. But certainly during that time we're processing information. And if we don't have a chance to have the REM sleep, we have memory problems and we really don't process information as we should. So the dreams help us to do this.

And we must have dreams. They're terrific. What happens, however, most of us have about four dreams a night. Now how many of us remember those dreams?

KING: Very few.

SHANOR: Most of us forget them. And there are reasons we forget our dreams. I talk about that in the book.

KING: Is hypnosis important?

SHANOR: Hypnosis is basically self-suggestion, relaxation. It is extremely important. I practice hypnosis as a psychologist, and it's helping somebody understand and get to different levels of their mind. I teach them how to hypnotize themselves. And, you know, we all hypnotize ourselves anyway when we say, oh, I can't do this. Or, I'm in a terrible mood. We've already done a little bit of self- hypnosis because we then follow through on it in some way.

Fascinating research in hypnosis, and most of the chapters of my book, in some way we talk about the deepest part of the mind, the very deep part of the mind that knows everything. You know, that inner wisdom. And hypnosis -- in 1975, Drs. Hilgard -- Josephine and Ernest Hilgard were actually able to contact that part of the mind through hypnosis, and they have since referred to that as the hidden observer. Now the hidden observer is the same thing as the inner wisdom. It's been called a lot of things...

KING: Yes. SHANOR: But that's the all-knowing part of the mind that when we tap into it, it's the healing part of the mind. When we meditate, it's the very deep part of the mind. Even in sleep, meditators are able to go to that deep, deep level most of the time during sleep.

KING: Can the mind help the body with a problem? Can the mind help a disease?

SHANOR: Well, you know, we've been connected for a long time, mind and body.

KING: Yes, I know, but can it have the power to?

SHANOR: Oh, it definitely has the power to. And we call this power very often -- we call it, for example, the placebo effect. It's extraordinarily powerful. We used to set it aside and say, well, when we're testing drugs, we'll try to eliminate the placebo effect, which means, basically, "I shall please" in Latin.

We now know -- there are studies done recently in Texas, for example, knee surgery -- those who received the actual knee surgery and those who just had a few cuts on the outside of their knee and thought they had surgery, two years later they both had -- were in the same situation, in the same place. And that's in surgery. Believing that surgery or whatever pill we take, whatever we're given and we believe in that doctor who helps us with it, that is the power of the mind.

KING: As I said, it's one of the most fascinating and helpful books I've ever read, and I thank you very much, Dr. Shanor, and continued good luck.

SHANOR: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Dr. Karen Shanor, her book is "The Emerging Mind," co- written and edited by Karen Nesbitt. It's from Renaissance books, and she's the well-known clinical psychologist, best-selling author. The book, "The Emerging Mind."

We thank all of our guests. We hope you enjoyed tonight's edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Thanks for joining us.

Good night.



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