Crossfire

Will Politics Determine Elian Gonzalez's Fate?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARY MATALIN, CO-ANCHOR: Tonight, the father of Elian Gonzalez prepares to come to the United States to bring his son home, but will the anti-Castro community stand in the way of Elian's return to Cuba?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the crossfire, Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas, ranking member on the Immigration and Claim Subcommittee, and in Miami, Republican Mayor Joe Carollo.

MATALIN: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. The father of Elian Gonzalez may be coming to the United States as early as tomorrow. Late this evening, the State Department approved visas for Elian's father, stepmother, half brother, cousin, pediatrician and kindergarten teacher. Meanwhile in Miami, anti-Castro protests continue and rhetoric remains heated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAMON SAUL SANCHEZ, PRESIDENT, DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT: What we argue is that it's not Juan Miguel who is going to have the father, but it's -- the child, but it's Fidel Castro.

If the child decides to be a communist, that is very fine, but if he decides -- if he chooses on his own free will to think differently, that government, in the face of Elian Gonzalez, is forced to make him disappear. And this is a violation of human rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATALIN: Protesters took to the streets in Havana as well. Meanwhile, in America we're all weighing in on the best interest of little Elian. In a recent CNN poll, 56 percent favored having the boy returned to its father in Cuba while 31 percent said he should stay with his relatives in the United States.

Amidst the protests and power plays, will Elian's United States relatives relinquish custody to his father? Is the Clinton administration's adamant position that Elian return to Cuba correct? And with Gore's defection from the administration and in support of family court adjudication, will Elian's fate be determined by politics?

We get to those questions in a moment, but first, let's get the very latest information on the legal maneuvering from CNN's Pierre Thomas, who has been closely monitoring this quickly changing story.

Pierre, take us behind the scenes on what's going on today.

PIERRE THOMAS, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Mary, negotiations continued down in Miami between the family in Miami and INS officials. Now what we're told from sources is that the family was informed by the Justice Department that when the father comes to the United States, temporary care or custody of the boy will be given to the father. We're now awaiting the family's final reaction to that statement that was given to them by the Justice Department today.

BILL PRESS, CO-ANCHOR: Pierre, let me ask you, so far, the family has not been willing to say that they would release the boy to his father. What assurances do we have or what makes us believe that if the INS gives them a time and a place to deliver the boy that they will comply?

THOMAS: Well, again, the negotiations continue, but we also have learned from sources that if the family continues to balk at turning over the boy, that the Justice Department would likely go to federal court and seek a court order compelling them to do so.

So, that is the latest as the investigation -- excuse me -- as the negotiations continue: the Justice Department looking at plans that if the family were to balk at these negotiations, that they would go to federal court to seek a court order to say turn the boy over.

PRESS: All right. Pierre Thomas, thanks so much for joining us tonight at the top of CROSSFIRE.

Let's go to Miami now, outside the home of the Gonzalez family, and say good evening to Mayor Carollo.

Mayor, thanks for joining us on CROSSFIRE. A couple of days ago, at the end of last week, you and other mayors stood at a news conference and said that if the Miami family, the cousins of Elian Gonzalez -- I'm sorry. We are having some problems with Miami. The mayor couldn't hear us.

So Mary, we'll let you go first to Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee.

MATALIN: Thanks so much for joining us. I've been watching your commentary and reading your opinion pieces on this. So let me ask you something about what you have cited as your No. 1 reason to return Elian to Cuba, which is our value, which is of commitment to family. Here's what a colleague of yours had to say, New Jersey Congressman Menendez about that.

Do we have the Menendez statement?

PRESS: I just heard that it's not quite ready.

MATALIN: All right. Well, let me read to it you.

It's better to hear it, but... PRESS: Live television.

MATALIN: I can't quite do his voice, but...

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Nothing wrong with that.

"In Castro's Cuba, Castro's constitution says the child belongs to the state and is entrusted to the parents for so long as they raise them as an appropriate communist man or woman. These are not the same family values that we are talking about here in the United States."

Isn't that where the conflict is? We're thinking of little Elian in terms of our family values, which is not really what's happening in Cuba?

LEE: I think our family values are the right standard to use, and that is that we believe that a child should be with their parent: a living parent, a nurturing parent, a parent that has not been accused of abuse, has not been accused of being unfit. We have no determination of that.

You know, it's interesting that just months ago we heard the outcry of both the protesters in Miami, the family in Miami: Juan Miguel Gonzalez, come to the United States. Now maybe he did not come soon enough for those who are concerned about his coming at this time, but he is coming. He is here. We know he has a visa. His wife, the half-brother, the baby brother have -- which I would think Elian, the big brother, would want to see, and others are coming.

Why do we have this dispute about whether or not this father should have the right to have his son here? I maintain, and my position has always been, that I believe the son should be returned to the father and returned back to Cuba. But I am willing to see this process go through the courts. I am not willing to have us misuse the congressional process and intercede at this time.

PRESS: Congressman, we'll come right back to you. I think we have the Miami signal back. Mr. Mayor, are you there?

MAYOR JOE CAROLLO (R), MIAMI: Yes, I am.

PRESS: Hi, Mr. Mayor, thank you.

CAROLLO: Thank you.

PRESS: I started to ask you that last week you and some of the other mayors in the Miami area stood at a news conference and said that if the family of Elian Gonzalez were to force the INS officials to come to the home, to retrieve the boy and give him to his father, that you would not do anything to assist federal agents in carrying out the law.

My question, Mayor, is, when you were sworn in as mayor, you swore to uphold and defend the laws of the United States.

CAROLLO: That is correct. PRESS: Why are you urging people now to defy the law?

CAROLLO: Well, that is not what I've done. I made it clear that we would only not assist Immigration if they go inside the house to take little Elian out. If you look at across America, every time that the federal government has implemented policies such as this for others, it has always been federal agents that go in and implement the law. They have not asked of any other local police department anywhere in America to assist them in the fashion that some would like them to force -- to assist in Miami.

We will comply with every federal, state and local law like we always have in the city of Miami. But what I'm not going to do is to allow city of Miami police officers to be the ones that are going to be shown worldwide taking out a little boy to be sent to a communist dictatorship while he's crying and screaming that he wants to stay in Miami.

That is the responsibility of the federal government.

PRESS: Well, Mr. Mayor, in this country, hearing you say that reminds those of us who were around then of the '50s and Orville Faubus in Arkansas...

CAROLLO: Not at all, Bill.

PRESS: ... and George Wallace who was saying we will not comply with federal rules to integrate our schools.

CAROLLO: Not at all.

PRESS: Is this mob rule in Miami? Is that what you want, mob rule?

CAROLLO: Not at all. This is what Fidel wants them to say here. You show me one other city in America where to implement federal law in this fashion the local police has been called in. The only way that they have been called in is to hold crowds back, to control traffic. All of that we will do.

We will protect any law enforcement agencies -- our own, federal -- and we will comply with all the laws. And peace and tranquility will be maintained in Miami. There is not going to be any violence in Miami. That is not the tradition that we have in Miami.

In particular, the Cuban-American community has been a very nonviolent, peaceful community.

PRESS: So if there are demonstrations in the street, as some people have talked about, if there are illegal demonstrations, attempts to close down the streets or to close down the airport, the Miami police will enforce the law?

CAROLLO: Absolutely so. We will not let illegal demonstrations take place in Miami. We will enforce the law fully. But at no time has anyone in Miami said otherwise. Simply what we have said is that it is the responsibility, the obligation of the federal government to implement the law and as far as to go inside the home and to pull the little boy out. We will not do that. We will not be part of something like that. That is not our obligation. It has not been asked or required of any other police department across America.

MATALIN: Congresswoman, I guess what we're batting around is something we don't really know. But you are in the unique position of having sponsored Elian's grandmother, maternal and paternal grandmothers here. Visited with him, lots of love. I don't think anyone's really arguing over whether the child should be reunited with his family and his father, but exactly where?

You said by your conversations with him that you felt -- they said there was no intimidation in Cuba, but the Miami relatives have said that in recent conversations Elian's father has told Elian his mother is still alive. And the speculation is that that's intimidation from Cuba.

How do you know, other than the grandmas telling you, that the family in Cuba is not being intimidated by the Castro regime?

LEE: Well, you ask a good question. First of all, let me applaud the mayor for his statements. I am a product of civil disobedience, the civil rights movements. And so I am sensitive and sympathetic to the passion of the Cuban-Americans. But it would be tragic if we allowed disturbances to get out of hand.

I hope, frankly, that the federal government is not seen dragging Elian Gonzalez out of the home. I am pleading with the Miami relatives that we find a peaceful way of reuniting him with his family here in the United States, his father in particular.

But I think the -- your question that you have asked simply speaks to where we are with this massive confusion. And looking at this from the political perspective and not from the family perspective. I hosted the grandmothers as did other members of Congress on the hill. We were alone except for an interpreter. I felt a sense as one human being to another that they were speaking from the heart. Was there influence? Someone could argue that just as they're arguing now that Juan Gonzalez is unfit. What is the evidence of that? Arguing that they heard him use comments to the child that seem to be misrepresenting or outright not telling the truth -- none of us have any proof of this other than those who care about him and may be manipulating or misusing the facts.

What I am suggesting is that we all need the look at the best interests of the child. It is not the law of the land to precipitously give permanent residency or citizenship through a process when there is no outright and obviously emergency that his life is in jeopardy. We've done it for -- individuals other than Elian Gonzalez, maybe three times. Why are we doing it now when his father is coming here the take him?

MATALIN: Well, isn't there a third way, the famous third way? He's coming here. They have been granted visas. Why don't they all stay here reunited as a family and be given permanent residents here? Yes, that's unique and -- but why should we say it's legally precedent setting, just say this is a unique situation. In this case, we want the family united in freedom on American soil.

LEE: Well, today I said I am interested in hearing the voice of Juan Miguel Gonzalez. What does he want for his son? We have not heard him ask for legal permanent residency if you will. If he has the opportunity to have input into this process as it is proceeding, many of us may listen but we know that the process out of the ordinary. It certainly is out of the ordinary to jump this process over the committee, whether it be in the Senate or in the House, and move it immediately to the floor of the Senate or the floor of the House. That is wrong.

PRESS: Mr. Mayor, I want to come back to you before we take a break, we've heard from you and you said now that the Miami police will enforce the law. I want to ask you about the family...

CAROLLO: That's what we always said, Bill.

PRESS: Thank you.

CAROLLO: We never said we would not.

PRESS: Thank you for clarifying. If the INS now says to the family, you're standing in front of their home, that the boy's father is here, we have given the boy's father temporary custody now of his son and we're asking you to bring the boy to meet with his father at a given location.

Will the Gonzalez family in Miami obey the INS?

CAROLLO: Bill, I can't answer for them. I would imagine that they will do whatever the law requires, and I'm sure that that's what they have said many times before. But what we're forgetting is this is not a custody battle between Florida and sending a boat to New York, or California or somewhere else in America. From the outset, it has been Fidel Castro, who has been the spokesperson of the father. He's the director of immigration who says when he can come or not come. He is there within Cuba.

The simple facts are that what we do know that Juan Miguel has said on national television in Cuba and here is that he had nothing to come to America for, and if indeed if he would come, he would come with a rifle to shoot the people in Miami. Now, I am sure he did not mean that.

But the fact is, that there is no parent anywhere in the world that would love a 6-year-old son that would not have come immediately to have taken them back, particularly someone that went through the tragic experience that poor little Elian has. The only logical reason why this parent didn't do that is because the totalitarian communist government of Fidel Castro would not let him come here. And in fact, if he would have come from the beginning with his whole family so he could have expressed his true feelings without the fear of persecution that I am sure he has in Cuba, I think this could have all been resolved. PRESS: OK, Mr...

CAROLLO: Now, the question is he going to come alone or with Castro security agents that are going to be watching him every moment.

PRESS: Well, mayor, the father didn't come right away but the father is coming maybe as early as tomorrow. When will he see his son? When and where will they be reunited? We'll continue to discuss and debate the issue. We'll come back on CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. In Miami, the long saga of Elian Gonzalez may be coming to a close but how will it end? Now that Elian's father has a visa to come to the United States will the Miami cousins hand Elian over to his father peacefully or will they defy the law? Will Elian soon be back in Cuba, and should he be?

Debating what should happen next: city of Miami Mayor Joe Carollo, who joins us from Miami outside the home of the Gonzalez family. And here in the studio with us, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, Democrat of Texas -- Mary.

MATALIN: Congresswoman, at the risk of digressing too far, we all keep saying and implicit in most of your answers was this shouldn't be political, but of course, it is political. Your own presumptive nominee Al Gore broke from the administration last week and said he is now in favor of getting this case out of the INS and in a family court in Florida. And about that, your colleague, Congressman Serrano had this to say:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOSE SERRANO (D), NEW YORK: I think he was pandering to the Cuban-American community, a vote that Democrats keep thinking that we can have when in fact it runs 70 to 80 percent Republican in a state where the president has a brother -- the candidate for president has a brother, Jeb Bush.

At the same time he has angered lot of Latino and a lot of African-Americans who represent Haitians and Africans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATALIN: Let me ask you about the first part, first, in the -- in the campaign, the Gore campaign has denied that it was pandering to Cuban voters. Is there another possible motivation?

LEE: The vice president's a parent. Has a right to his opinion on this. I absolutely disagree and, frankly, I think that if any determinations are made about citizenship or legal residency, it will have to be the Congress. I don't want to speak for my colleagues, but the last assessment is that the majority of the members of the Congress believe that this issue should not be in the United States Congress. We should not give, as I said earlier, precipitously or without the involvement of the father citizenship or permanent residency. So I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. I hope it does not. And I have said earlier, if it does, it needs to go through the committee process.

The real key is, how do we solve this problem? The vice president has a solution that talks about permanent residency. Maybe he wants to see it go through the courts. I can concede to that. But the main point is, what happens with Juan Gonzalez coming here tomorrow? If he arrives, he should have custody of that young boy, that baby, and he should have custody quietly and securely, and it should be without strife and stress.

And I would plead to the Miami relatives that what we are doing here is we're going something on the young boy of Elian Gonzalez, not on behalf. We are putting something on him.

Let us take the stress off of him and let him be reunited with his father, and let us see the process work its way through.

MATALIN: But the time for no strife, no stress and quiet has passed us by, and the vice president has contributed to that. And going to the second part of Congressman Serrano's statement and echoed by other Democrats, leading Democrats, like Lee Hamilton, they've suggested that the vice president has lost a lot of support amongst Latinos and African-Americans because of this position he's taken, ostensibly on behalf of Cuban-Americans. Agree, disagree?

LEE: Well, what I would say is that the vice president can make amends. Certainly, there are people who feel that there are Haitians and that there are other undocumented children, unaccompanied children who are now detained in our detention centers that we're doing nothing about. I think that is something that you would not have wanted to wade into without some response.

But I think the vice president's record on immigrant issues, on civil rights issues is a strong record.

If this is his view, he needs to defend it. We disagree with it. I disagree with it. And I believe Elian Gonzalez should be returned to his father.

PRESS: Congresswoman, I have to point out that unfortunately we have lost our connection to Miami again because of some weather problems there, and we apologize Mayor Carollo that we haven't been able to get him back.

But in the time we have, this legislation, which the vice president said he would support, to grant residency status to the father and the whole village that was planning on coming with him, I mean, I did read a letter today that the father of Elian Gonzalez sent to Senator Lott and to Senator Daschle basically saying you want to make us citizens of the United States. We haven't asked for that and we don't want it.

What do you think is going to happen to this legislation? I mean, can you force citizenship on people who don't want it? LEE: Bill, my sentiment exactly. First of all, in an op-ed opinion that I wrote in February 2000, I said let Elian be returned to his father and let him make a decision at a later time in his life, 12 years old, 13 years old, 15 years old to return to the United States. And I would say in Cuba -- and Castro should dare to get involved in that decision.

I have said today and said since Juan Gonzalez made his desire to come here, let the father have some input into these decisions. He's made it clear now. I'm sure someone is going to editorialize it and say, he doesn't know what he is saying, he's been influenced by Castro. I believe he does know what he's saying, and I think that you should not bestow citizenship on a 6-year-old or legal residency without the involvement of a living, nurturing parent. And that is his father, Juan Gonzalez.

MATALIN: Congresswoman Lee, thank you so much for joining us.

LEE: Thank you.

MATALIN: And in abstentia, thank you, mayor.

Bill and I will be back with our closing comments after a very quick break. Stay with us. Thanks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATALIN: OK, bill. The congresswoman was so eloquent and such a voice of reason here. Before you start screaming at me, let me not say I hate -- I think most parents don't want to think of this as a choice between freedom and family. We want to find a way that both can be united, the family in freedom in the United States.

And I think the congresswoman's taken the lead on this, sees a path to that solution.

PRESS: I think the congresswoman said it eloquently. I agree. And she said it correctly. The best place for this boy is with his father. They happen to be Cubans. They happen to live in Cuba. People live happily in Cuba. That's where they want to live. We should just butt out, keep politics out of it.

You know something, Mary, the mistake was four months ago when this poor little kid was found the INS should have put him on a plane and sent him back to Cuba like they do with everything else. We would have avoided this entire circus. It would not have an issue.

MATALIN: I love you guys saying let's keep politics out of this, and Albert Gore stands up there, breaks from the administration.

PRESS: Oh!

MATALIN: Sticks it right in everybody's face.

Does that stifle the voice of the congresswoman? Does that bring the quiet and the calm and the best interests of the boy in play? PRESS: Do you know what that is? Pure political disgraceful pandering. Shame on Al Gore.

From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

MATALIN: Well, lord, what a good place to stop. Couldn't agree more with my esteemed colleague.

From the right, I'm Mary Matalin. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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