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Larry King Live Weekend

What Do Men Know About Success that Women Need to Learn?

Aired April 8, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, what do men know about success that women need to learn? CNN Executive Vice President Gail Evans tells all in her new book, "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman." We'll also get tips from actress and entrepreneur Suzanne Somers, author of "365 Ways to Change Your Life." And with her in L.A., Leeza Gibbons, host of the TV talks show "Leeza." In San Francisco, psychologist John Gray, author of the best seller, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus." And in Washington, the famed make-up artist and businesswoman Trish McEvoy.

And they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening. Welcome to another edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Later we'll be joined by actress and entrepreneur Suzanne Somers, Leeza Gibbons, the host of "Leeza," who's got a big special coming on CBS, Dr. John Gray, probably the best-selling psychologist author in the world, and Trish McEvoy, the owner and CEO of Trish McEvoy Cosmetics.

We're going to spend the opening portions of the program with Gail Evans. She's CNN executive vice president. She's here tonight in a different role. She's the author of a new book called "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman." Where did this come from? I mean, little Gail Evans in Atlanta who we speak to about guests who bosses us around? Where did this come from?

GAIL EVANS, AUTHOR, "PLAY LIKE A MAN, WIN LIKE A WOMAN": All of these years being out there in corporate America, I've observed that there are lots of great women and they seem to all feel stuck. And what was it about all of it? What didn't we learn along the way that you boys learned?

And I started listening and taking notes and paying attention and giving speeches, and all of a sudden I realized the boys wrote the game and the girls weren't around playing when the game of business was written, and nobody ever taught us the rules. So I decided try to put down some of the directions.

KING: Then how did you do so well in a game written by the other gender?

EVANS: Well, I mean, who knows whether I did that well? I'm not... KING: Well, you're the executive vice president of a major company.

EVANS: Right.

KING: That's not bad.

EVANS: No, it's not bad. But I'm not the president and I'm not the chairman. I'm not, you know, the CEO. So maybe there -- you know, who knows? If I'd known better then, it might be me instead of...

KING: Would you say that because of a woman, that's why you couldn't be the chairman?

EVANS: No, I don't think -- well, I think maybe I didn't have the drive and ambition to be the chairman. I'm not sure that I knew what you had to know to do it in the beginning. And then I'm not sure when I got to the point where I mind have been eligible that I had exactly the same kind of drive. My belief about what it takes to be a Gerry Levin (ph) or a Ted Turner is something that I somehow can't see myself as.

KING: All right then, this was an evolvement for you, Gail?


KING: You said you started to take notes. Can you remember about when this idea hit your head that...

EVANS: Well, I used...

KING: ... there's something happening here?

EVANS: I used to go out and give speeches a lot. And it always seemed as though the women...

KING: To groups?

EVANS: Yes, to different groups, whether it was media organizations or business organizations. And it would seem to me after the speech was over there were always a bunch of women standing around saying, how did you do it? How do you survive? I'm overwhelmed, I'm miserable unhappy. I'm smart. I'm doing my job well, but I can't seem to reach that place of fulfillment and contentment. And so I began listening to all of them and looking at what are some of the things that we may do wrong or we may not understand that may prevent us from getting ahead.

KING: Did you learn a lot from those who didn't play the game the way others did? Women who did rise to the top?

EVANS: I've learned a lot -- I think I've learned a lot from everybody I've been around. I see women get stuck because we take things so personally and we give it such meaning that I think the people I know who didn't get ahead who are really smart were people who couldn't quite separate personal from business. And I think that's probably the biggest lesson for the women.

KING: You account -- women are 46 percent of the labor force and less than 12 percent of the corporate officers. That's an incredible statistic.


KING: And that's...

EVANS: And it hasn't changed much.

KING: Way out of wack with reality. All right, how much does it have to do with birth? That women get pregnant and give birth, and, therefore, rising up that ladder is harder?

EVANS: I don't think it has that much to do with it.


EVANS: No, because look at all the young women who have the babies and who come to work right afterwards, their children are in day care. They're just as smart and just as efficient, but it may be that when they arrive at the office they're split in half.

One of the things that I think is key to success -- I mean, you know it -- is showing up fully present for what you're doing, that you eliminate everything else from your mind. I'm at the office, I'm doing the job. If you're a mother and you've got an 18-month-old baby and a 2-month-old baby in day care someplace, can you really be fully present at the job?

KING: Woody Allen said 90 percent of success is showing up.

EVANS: I think so. I usually say 80, but I think Woody is right.

KING: But years ago, the lady's hired as a bank teller. They all know, the bank knows, she's going to get pregnant, she's going to leave, she may come back, she may not come back. She's never going to be president of this bank.

EVANS: But why not?

KING: I'm asking you. Why not?

EVANS: Right. I mean, I say, why not? If she's smart enough, she ought to be able to. Maybe -- one of the things I've learned along the time is maybe for women life is not simultaneous. We don't have to do it all at once. We don't have to be the super woman who's got the great job, got the baby, got the sick mother and all the rest. Maybe it's sequential. Maybe it's OK to drop out for -- and work part-time or not work for seven or eight years. And maybe then you come back refreshed and excited. You have to pay a price for that.

KING: Why, Gail, do women top executives earn 68 cents for every dollar earned by their male counterparts? EVANS: It's a mystery to me, Larry. It's a mystery to me.

KING: So are you saying...

EVANS: They work just as hard.

KING: ... that the executive vice president of CNN is going to make more than you probably? Is that generally the trend?

EVANS: Apparently it's generally the trend. I...

KING: Do you know why?

EVANS: ... don't think it's true. Because I think a lot of times women have not been on the total career path. In a lot of companies, that -- the assumption has been, she has a husband who's taking care of her, that she doesn't need the money as much. I think over time a lot of those kinds of things have been true, that -- you talked about pregnancy -- people assume she's not going to be here forever, so we don't have to compensate here the same way. Now look, it's changing, because the laws say it has to change. But...

KING: The title of the book is "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman." You say men know the rules because they wrote them and women get shut out because they don't know the rules. So what do they do? How do they play like a man?

EVANS: Well, I think one of the things that they have to understand is that playing like a man doesn't mean you give up who you are. But some of the silly places where we get stuck because we learn to be good girls we need to get rid of.

One of the things I always talk about is if you go into a meeting in any business there's usually the round table in the center of the room and there may be or 10 seats there. And then there are the chairs around the periphery. The women walk in the room and they automatically take the seats in the periphery, because somehow or other they're like the uninvited guests at the wedding.

KING: Conditioning.

EVANS: Yes, that we -- why do you belong at the table? Somehow, we believe that who belongs at the table is who's running things. And if we're not running things, we don't belong there. That's crazy. They're guys.

KING: So you're saying go to the table?

EVANS: Go to the table. If you belong at the table, if you're part of the discussion -- if the boss has to turn his neck and turn around to listen to what you have to say, it's never going to be as powerful. So instead of screaming, they never listen to me, be someplace where they have to listen to you.

KING: Play their game.

EVANS: Play their game.

KING: Back with more -- you mean they've got to go golfing, too?


KING: I'll ask about that.

Gail Evans, the book is "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman," the publisher is Broadway, a division of Doubleday. The panel will join us in a little while. Right back with Gail.

Don't go away.


KING: One of the problems that you face is, if I tell you now the CEO is coming through the door, you expect a man, right?

EVANS: Right.

KING: It's a man's world. CEO is a man's term?

EVANS: Right.

KING: Right? How do you break that hurdle?

EVANS: I think one of the things you have to do is hang in there. I think the more women who move up through the ladder who are really willing to keep pushing it, we're going to see some more women CEOs. But it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough. I mean, I hear stories all the time. I went to buy a company recently, some stock in it. And my stockbroker said, you know, the new CEO of that company is a woman, and the market's -- you know, the Street hasn't really decided whether a woman can run a big company like that.

I was in shock. He said, now, Gail that's not -- I don't want you to get upset about that. He said, but this is about your money, and I want to make sure I tell you what I'm telling anybody else. I was horrified.

KING: Is it changing or not?

EVANS: It's changing very, very, very slowly.

KING: You've come a long way, baby?

EVANS: You've come a long way, baby. I think that's true, but we've come a long way into middle management. We haven't come a long way into the top yet.

KING: You made middle management.

EVANS: Middle management, right. So it's like...

KING: You have four ground rules. You are the one who you say you are. EVANS: Right.

KING: One prize does not fit all. Work is not a sorority. You're always a mother, daughter, wife or mistress.

Let's break them down. You are who you say you are.

EVANS: When you come into the office and you act shy, intimidated, tentative, that's who people think you are. When you arrive -- you know you know the material. Women -- I mean, we work so hard. We study, we know a hundred percent before we walk in the room. Nobody can know a hundred percent. But if we don't think we know every answer, we're quiet about responding. We don't want anybody to -- you know, we don't want to be caught out there. We don't want to make a mistake. We've been -- you know, we're risk-adverse. We'd rather have the nice job and feel safe than take the risk. But the guys who get ahead take risks.

KING: All right, but if you get tough, the woman is an SOB. The man is aggressive.

EVANS: Absolutely.

KING: And so you can't be...

EVANS: Tough.

KING: You can't pound the desk and scream, and you're fired, Phil.

EVANS: No, you've got to have a smile on your face. They can yell, you can't. There's no question about it.

KING: All right, so you still have to do that. That's a rule you can't -- you can't play that man's game.

EVANS: Right, no. You have to -- one of my other rules is -- I have a whole list of things they can do that you can't do. And...

KING: And don't try to do them.

EVANS: Well, in this atmosphere, they can yell and you can't. You know...

KING: You have to accept that.

EVANS: Right. I think that's -- they can cry and you can't. That's a scary one. A man cries and we think that's a sign of deep passion.

KING: Yes.

EVANS: A woman cries and we go, see, I told you she was a weakling.

KING: That's right. How do you uncondition that, though? EVANS: Well...

KING: That's...

EVANS: Well, I think...

KING: You've got to write books like this.

EVANS: I think we've got to talk to each other. I think one of the things that happens is that women don't spend a lot of time talking to each other, telling each other what they've learned. We do a lot of -- we spend a lot of time complaining about what doesn't work. We don't spend a lot of time trying to help each other to push ahead to really empower each other.

KING: Those women who do do that have succeeded, though.


KING: They didn't have the book to go by, but they knew it intrinsically, right?

EVANS: Right, yes.

KING: Because we've known some women like that who run companies...

EVANS: Absolutely.

KING: ... who are tough, but without stepping across that line.

EVANS: Right. And it's -- it's also, we get different meanings to the same word. A guy is aggressive and that's terrific. He's a great salesman. We say a good woman who's a salesman is assertive. That's crazy. It's the same word. If you're aggressive you're aggressive. But we have this whole set of semantics that don't work for us.

KING: One prize does not fit all?

EVANS: What you want and what I want from coming to the office every day may be something different. And it's really important. It's possible that I, as a woman, don't really want to be the CEO. That's great, but be clear about where you're going and what you want for yourself and what feels good. It's really important to try out. It's like putting -- women are great at going to the store and picking out the right clothes. Going to the office and picking the right company and picking the right boss should take the same amount of time and attention as picking out the right dress to wear to the party.

KING: You mentioned when we were breaking, golf -- no. Don't join the golf club? Don't take up the game?

EVANS: A lot of people don't agree with me about this, but I say, don't play golf unless you like to play golf. You're not going to be successful... KING: In other words, don't so something because you...

EVANS: Don't fake it. It's like, find where you're comfortable playing with the boys and play there. Don't do something you're not comfortable at. If you don't like to play golf, you're never going to be a good golfer. And so, therefore, being on the golf course is not going to work. But then I know a woman who loves to play in the stock market who's very successful. And what she does with the guys that's sort of the comraderie bit is they trade options together. That's -- she's safe there. she's comfortable there. She thinks that's fun -- but she hates golf.

KING: Work is not a sorority?

EVANS: This is a big one. This is a big one. I think what happens is women become good friends at work. That's great. We're relationship oriented, we meet each other, we want to become great friends. And then all of a sudden there's a business issue and you disagree, and it's like you're hurting your friend, you're not supporting them. Your friend takes it personally and thinks, how can my best friend attack me like that in a meeting? If she was really my best friend she'd be supporting me. This is about work. This is not -- you come to the office to do the job. The by-product is some wonderful thing called I may get a friendship out of it. But you're getting paid to do the work and not to be best friends, and don't mix them up.

KING: Well put. And you also -- the other ground rule is, you're always a mother, daughter, wife or mistress. That's a fact, right?

EVANS: Right, that's a fact.

KING: Can't change that.

EVANS: Well, maybe some day.

KING: Well you're one of them, right?

EVANS: Well, that's right.

KING: You are one of them.

EVANS: But I mean, you see that women have these traditional roles in -- with their bosses and with the people in their company. And I think as there are more and more women in higher levels of the work force, that may begin to change. But by and large you're one of those roles because that's the way the men see you. We as girls , it was OK when we were little to play with boys. But a boy who played with three girls was sort of strange. So these are these are the most common roles. And this is where people fall.

KING: So when the board of directors gathers to look for the new CEO, they're not even thinking woman, because it's liable the board is all men.

EVANS: That's right. Well, they're thinking woman because it's politically correct. But then they get stumped.

KING: So they'll interview a woman?

EVANS: They'll interview a woman, sure. I mean, they...

KING: We talked to her. We like her.

EVANS: We like her very much. Let's see if she's available to be a senior vice president.

KING: The book is "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman," the guest is Gail Evans. Back with some more Gail and then Suzanne Somers, Leeza Gibbons, Dr. John Gray and Trish McEvoy will join us. This will get lively.

Don't go away.


KING: We'll be asking our panel their opinions on this concept and this book as well. Women and the team mentality -- team is a male word.

EVANS: Right. Sure it's all -- the you, the sports thing.

KING: Play on the team.

EVANS: It's all -- you think of the sports analogies. I mean, it's every place we turn. It's all about sports. That's the metaphor. And more and more of us play sports. But being on the team is understanding that you may have a lousy position, it may be something you don't like, you may have to do it for a long time, and you may get asked to do stuff you don't want to do. You may have to continually push the coach to let you in -- that's, like, totally antithetical to who we are as women to be saying there saying, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it.

KING: Let me in, coach, I want to play today.

EVANS: Yes, let me in, coach. So for the guys -- I mean, we think of -- when somebody says no, it's devastating. I mean, we worked hard at this.

KING: Your emotional build-up is different, right?

EVANS: Yes, I mean, we worked hard to present this. And then all of a sudden the boss says no? And it's like you walk away, I'm defeated. One of my sons said to me he loves it when his boss says no, because that's the first step in the strategy to yes. That's totally different than how we're wired.

KING: Learning to keep score. You write about that.

EVANS: Well, one of the things I always think about is if you see a couple women on the tennis court, we love to go out and volley and practice and have a great time playing. And a really smart man I, you know, knew, a big businessman, you know, it only counts if you're keeping score. And if you're practicing, there's no score. And the truth is, it all counts. It's not practice. This is the real world, and we have to be careful.

KING: Will feminists like this, not like it or what?

EVANS: Well I think it's confusing, because I've talked to a couple feminists about it. And I think that they certainly think of me as a feminist, but I said this book is not exactly politically correct. And what one of them said to me is, but it reflects reality. And I'm not telling any woman she has to do what I say in the book. What I'm saying is, there are a bunch of rules that I've observed over the years. Don't play in ignorance. At least know what they are. And if you choose to break them, that's cool, but break them actively.

KING: What's the "impostor syndrome"?

EVANS: That's when -- all women -- I still suffer from the impostor syndrome. It's like...

KING: Which is?

EVANS: Which is that somebody's going to find out I really don't know what I'm talk about. I've been bluffing...

KING: Yes, but men feel that way, too.

EVANS: Oh, but it's -- I think it's much more -- you get over it better than we do. We really believe it.

KING: A lot of men feel, I'm in on a pass. What if someone finds out?

EVANS: Right, that's right. But I think most women really (OFF- MIKE)

KING: Feel that way for a long time?

EVANS: Yes, for most of our lives in the business world because we were so -- you know, we weren't taught about all this. And so we're out there and it's like there's always somebody who knows more, because we're such perfectionists about our work that we feel like we need to know everything.

KING: When the panel assembles, as they will in just a couple minutes, is this a good way to judge it? I mean, we did a panel once on beauty in which every person on the panel was beautiful. Did that help the lady in Idaho who ain't too beautiful? Can this help the woman who's the -- watching Suzanne Somers and Leeza Gibbons and Trish McEvoy -- and, of course, Dr. John Gray's input as well -- say, can I associate with them?

EVANS: Yes, but, see, that's what I love about this, because what I'm -- it doesn't matter what you do. I think if you're somebody who's cleaning the office, you can learn how to be more powerful within the context of your job. KING: You can make yourself the indispensable cleaner of the office.

EVANS: You can, but it's possible to be that. And you know the indispensable cleaner of the office gets promoted. And all of a sudden they know things.

KING: And then you run the other people who clean the office.

EVANS: That's right. So always, any of this -- and I think if you listen to people who are really successful, you can see various -- we're not all the same.

KING: Was it hard the first time you had to boss a man?

EVANS: Yes, yes. Well, one of the first men I ever had to boss told me it was very tough on him. It wasn't so tough on me. I have two sons, a husband. You know, we all know how to boss.

KING: We'll be back. Our panel will assemble. We'll get their thoughts -- all successful -- and Dr. Gray's, who comes, as you know, from another planet.

Don't go away.


KING: We're back on LARRY KING LIVE and our panel assembles.

Remaining with us is Gail Evans, CNN executive vice president and author of "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman" from Broadway Doubleday. In Los Angeles, Suzanne Somers, actress entrepreneur, author of "365 Ways to Change Your Life." Also in L.A., our buddy Leeza Gibbons, the host of the TV show "Leeza." She's going to host a wild special on CBS April 15th called We'll ask about that along the way. In San Francisco, the famed Dr. John Gray -- I was going to say Jane because that's the way this panel's going. Dr. John Gray is the psychologist, of course, the best-selling author of "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus," one of the best-selling books ever on the subject. And here in Washington Trish McEvoy, the owner and CEO of Trish McEvoy Cosmetics.

You've read the book so we'll start with you. Trish.


KING: What do you make of the Gail concept here of "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman"?

MCEVOY: I loved it, because for me it opened a window that I hadn't looked in before.

KING: Even though you have, obviously, played like a man to an extent -- have you?

MCEVOY: Well, I don't know about that. I own my own business, so it's a little different. I didn't have to play like a man. But I learned so much from this book about men, which I think is so, so important in the workplace.

KING: Know the enemy in a sense.

MCEVOY: No, know the players.

KING: Yes. Suzanne, what do you make of the concept?

SUZANNE SOMERS, AUTHOR, "365 WAYS TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE": I really liked her book. I read her book, I liked it -- and, John, I really love your book, too. So that out of the way, what's interesting to me was that when I was reading it I was thinking, when I had my own talk show I was producing it also. And I staffed with women, because I figured it was a daytime talk show, I wanted to have women involved. I had the most difficult time because of the way they took everything personally. I remember having one producer in my office one day saying, I can't work with this person anymore. And I thought, this is business. And so it was very eye-opening reading Gail's book.

KING: In other words, they can't get away with that.

SOMERS: You're going to play hardball, you got to play -- it's hardball out there.

KING: Before we get the mail viewpoint, Leeza Gibbons, the host of "Leeza," what do you make of this concept?

LEEZA GIBBONS, HOST, "LEEZA": Well, I'm a big fan of women in business, obviously, because I think there are a lot of women who are excellent business people. And I know everyone on this panel agrees we're great organizers, we're very intuitive, we're very instinctive. But I think Gail is right on with a lot of things. I think that we define ourselves through our relationships, and because of that we do want to be well-liked at the office. And even when we hear yes -- for instance, they'll tell me something like, yes -- I'll say I need to change the production schedule because of my children. OK, yes, we'll do that. Well I won't hear just, yes, fine, move on. I'll hear, well, maybe I can move it back an hour. And then I could be there at 3:00. And maybe we don't have to change it after all.

We try to accommodate. We've been to go along to get along. And it's like Michael Eisner said, you know, you've got to paddle your canoe faster that the water or slower than the water. You can't afford just to let the water take you down. And I think as women sometimes that that's what we're guilty of.

KING: And now the male viewpoint from a guy who knows the territory. Dr. Gray, can you apply this "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" to this book "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman"?

DR. JOHN GRAY, AUTHOR, "MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS": Absolutely, it's right on. What's great about this approach is it's not trying to change men. What Gail's doing is saying, hey, it's a game. They're out there playing, they have their rules. If you want to win at the game, learn the rules. Learn their language. They're from another planet. Go in and learn their language. And you don't have to try to change them. And ultimately, you don't have to change yourself.

For me to go to Japan and speak Japanese, I don't have to change who I am. I might have to adjust a few customs when I'm in their presence, but I don't have to become Japanese. Same way, women dealing with men in the workplace, learn their language. Learn the way they interpret things so they'll respect you. Because when you do certain things that are natural among other women which other women will respect, often men don't respect that. And I think all the women have hit one nail right on the head, which Gail said, which is don't take things so personally. Not only do men not want to work with a women if she's always getting her feelings hurt and she's really sensitive and whatever, but they'll want to stay away from her and they won't promote you.

If you want to get ahead, you've got to learn how to not take things personally. That's one of the big, big issues that we;re talking about. I completely agree with it. But you don't have to change who you are.

KING: You don't...

GRAY: You can still be feminine.

KING: ... but, Gail, are you then faking it?


KING: If you feel personal and don't act personal, are you faking it?

EVANS: No, because you can learn to understand. There are all sorts of techniques. If you scream at me, I can either choose to believe you're screaming at me, or I can say, Larry must have had a really tough time getting to work this morning. He must have had a fight with his wife this morning. And you can shift it.

KING: I'm not going to cry.

EVANS: Right.

KING: Tell yourself I'm not going to cry.

EVANS: That's right. You can shift it. It's how you look at it. Do you choose -- it's almost egocentric. It's almost -- when somebody yells at me...

GRAY: When you understand...

EVANS: ... it's about me -- it's about them.

KING: Others can jump in...

GRAY: When you understand... KING: ... but we have three people out of town so just -- I'll allow that, but, OK -- who wants -- Suzanne, did you want to go first here?

SOMERS: Leeza first...

GRAY: I do.


SOMERS: Then me.


KING: Let the men go first.

SOMERS: Got a lot of mouth on this show today, Larry.

GIBBONS: You were talking about sports, and yes, men understand sports, and they understand war, and they understand strategy and planning, and I think as women, we're very used to showing our hand, because that's how we deal with our stress. We like to talk about our problems. John Gray taught us that. We all know that. That's what we do. But in business, that really can hurt us, and this has affected me personally a lot. We are chatty. We want to know. You know, we want to take a poll or we want to vote on everything -- how would you feel? We want to get everybody's input, but in doing so, we tend to put too much of us out there, and that can be a very dangerous position, and that's something we can learn from the guys.

KING: Let's take a break. We've got lots more to go. We're only halfway through.

Don't go away.


KING: Trish McEvoy, did you go into business for yourself because you knew you couldn't be CEO of Revlon?

MCEVOY: Oh, I definitely could not be CEO of Revlon, then or now.

KING: But is that one of the reasons that you've driven you have your own?

MCEVOY: No, no, I've always knew that I had to have my own thing. It had nothing to do with Revlon, it had nothing to do with Lauder. I loved running my own game.

KING: So you couldn't work for someone else. Or wouldn't work for someone else?

MCEVOY: Not long term, absolutely not. I'm an independent player that loves teams.

KING: So you learned from this book even though it doesn't affect you? You run the company?

MCEVOY: I learned a lot from this book.

KING: Helps you understand the men who work for you, or around you or you deal with.

MCEVOY: Because I deal with men every day, but I never understood why they reacted acted the way they did, and it took me aback many a time. And when I read your book and how you spoke about how men really don't understand emotion, I'm like, wow, that makes sense. This gentleman screamed at me last week, and today, he's being so lovely. What happened between last week and this week?

KING: Suzanne, she writes the things men can do at work that will can't is cry, have sex, yell, have bad manners and be ugly. You agree with that? Men can do that, women can't?

SOMERS: That's true. I read that example in her book. When Pat Schroeder cried, all the men went, oh well, go figure, it's a woman. And when men cry, it's because they obviously, this is such an emotional point that they can't hold back anymore because they're strong to begin with.

But I -- it's always a conflict for me, because I believe in, by example, you know, people will want what you have. And I wonder, Gail, how our behavior within business can affect the behavior of men by an example of better behavior. Does that make sense?

EVANS: I think so. I think one of the things I've learned over time is that if we're there and we present ourselves as really being in command and wanting the best for the business and for everybody, they begin to listen to us more and more, and what happens is, out of the respect we draw personally, we begin to set an example. I think, some day, all of these rules will probably go away, and we'll be this very heterogeneous kind of group that moves back and forth, and they'll adapt some of our stuff, and we'll adapt some of theirs'.

SOMERS: Right.

EVANS: But we've got to develop enough power that somebody listens to us first.

SOMERS: And what was interesting there is I think we're dealing with a general of men, because there's a new generation coming up, they're the 30-year-olds, their my sons age, and I notice that they approach parenting in a different way, fathering in a different way, and business in a different way.

KING: Better, or worse or different?

SOMERS: Well, I think there's more of a feminine side to this generation coming up, in terms of, you know, the give and take of it.

KING: Maybe, John, you had something to do with that.

John, can we change conditioning? GRAY: Well, absolutely. Conditioning is how we're raised, and clearly, the younger generation has not been raised the way we were. Their stereotypes are not so rigid. Clearly, there are genetic differences between men and women, but this doesn't mean we can't have incredibly cooperative relationships. It's really just about successful communication.

Coming back to that point about taking things personally, when you accept the differences, then you don't feel so hurt by another person's behavior. You take time to understand that perspective, you learn to get what you want and change does take place. We have to change the work place, without a doubt, but the wisdom is, you don't go in there and try to just say, you need to become more like me, let me speak your language, let me work with you, let me get what I need through asking. And again, that's another place where women need help, which is learning to be aggressive is fine, too, but also assertive, ask for what you want. Don't expect that just because you're doing a good job, you're going to get a raise, because what men will do, like on the team, is come on, put me on first base, I'm a better catcher than that person is, put me on first base; the woman will kind of go, well gee, doesn't the coach see that I'm a better catcher? Why doesn't he put me on first base? And if you don't pushing for it, then you start resenting, taking it personally, then you start putting out a field around you of nobody wants to be around you.

KING: Leeza, in the sexual area, that's going to be the longest to change, right? A man who might at the office be fooling around is considered kind of, well, that's in, right? But a woman is considered a bad girl. I'm talking about traditional -- what are you laughing at me? I'm talking about -- maybe I'm wrong -- Leeza, Trish is laughing at me. I didn't do anything. I'm being laughed at.

GIBBONS: I think there's less tolerance all the way around in this area, I really do. Gail talks about a business style that really has to do with confidence, and it goes all the way from the way you look to the way your business touches. You know, touching is a real big signal in business, and it shows how we feel about each other, it shows how confident we are, and women need to find a way, as men do, to be comfortable with that business hug or the business touch, and that's a pretty tricky area, I think for us.

But Gail talks about that men can be overweight, or unattractive, or sloppy or ugly, and the rules are different for us.

KING: Right they are.

GIBBONS: We may not be happy about that, and we may fight to change that, and I think that, ultimately, the ground will be more even, but that's the real deal. Remember in the beginning, we used to have to wear a tie? We had to dress like a man at work. We evolved. Now we can be more feminine. There are different expressions of professionalism, and there's a different standard.

That's going to be the last to change, isn't it, Trish, don't you think? The man can be... MCEVOY: I the hardest part is going to be changing habits. If women are used to reacting, it's going to be hard to change that. If women are used to being sensitive, it's going to be hard to change that. The clothing is secondary. It's the attitude that's primary, and that's what has to be changed.

KING: And John agrees.

Let me get a break. We'll come back with more. I want to ask Leeza about this --, what that is? I think they're giving away something.

Don't go away.


KING: On Saturday night, April 15, on CBS, Leeza is going to host a special, "" So before we go any further, just what is that?.

GIBBONS: It's just the coolest thing. The Internet revolution has changed all of us and now there's all this money, and I thought, what a great opportunity. They came and said, would you like to be the person that gives away the $10 million? Well, yes. This is kind of like a this-is-your life opportunity to look at how these giveaways have changed these people. And on tax day, it's going to be $10 million. It's a trip around the world. It's a car.

KING: Wait a minute, you're going give away $10 million that night?

GIBBONS: That night live on the air, and also callers, viewers at home, get to call and win $50,000 as the show is happening.

KING: And you're asking them questions? It's a quiz show?

GIBBONS: No, it is not a quiz show. It's passive winning just by using the "Iwon" search engine to check your e-mail, or to read the news or whatever. So we're going take a glimpse into these people's lives.

KING: That's Saturday night, April 15, the special.

OK, Suzanne, why didn't they hire a man to host that? sounds like it should be Regis.

SOMERS: Yes, Regis, eat your heart out. A million sounds like fisher money now.

KING: Is that something on to be set said, though? They asked a woman to do it.

SOMERS: No, I don't think so. I mean, I think you can overanalyze everything. You know, everything we're talking about reminds me, when my contract was up on "There's Company" I was fired because I asked to be paid what the men in comparable positions were being paid in my business, and what was interesting about that was I didn't know how to play the game then, and I did take everything very personally. It's probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me, because it forced me to really look at how I was approaching things, and it forced me to reinvent myself and decide I don't want to -- my business to be in that vein of corporate: I wanted to create something that was my own that I could be in control of, so I wouldn't have to constantly be playing that game.

KING: So you went another route in order not play the game, Gail, but not many people can do that.

EVANS: Right. And one of the great things that Suzanne said was that we as women somehow think something goes wrong it's a tragedy, but the truth is being fired is probably the greatest opportunity a lot of us have.

KING: Many men have said the best thing that ever happened to me is the day I got fired.

EVANS: Right, look at all the really successful -- if you haven't been fired once, you probably -- there's something about it, you haven't been taking any risks, if you haven't been fired, you've playing the game in no winning way.

KING: You're a risk taker, right, you must be, Trish?

MCEVOY: I'm a big risk taker.

KING: Do you think women are less risk taking than men?


KING: Gail does, right?

MCEVOY: Definitely.

KING: Woman are less?


KING: Do you agree, John?

GRAY: Absolutely. The studies show that women want to play safe, and that's why they invest more. The biggest investors are women. They want more insurance, and so forth. It's part of the whole nurturing thing of taking care of the family, not taking big risks. You've got offspring. You've got to create safety. And the man would go out and take the risk and stand guard, and go to war, and give up his life, all that stuff. Men are used to that, whereas women are more aware of life. Men will go out and lose their lives.

So men are much bigger risk takers. They feed off of it, and this is one of the reasons women have to be aware that in the workplace, which requires a lot of traditional male-type activities, there's a lot of risk, there's a lot of efficiency, goal-oriented, bottom line, as opposed to relationship-oriented activities, and so the workplace is not going to be as nurturing to a woman. And when it's not as nurturing, if she's not getting what she's needs, she's not going to be as happy. She's going to be more stressed. She has a greater tendency to be overwhelmed, so what she has to do is make sure that she compensates for the additional stress she experiences in the workplace by taking time to nurture the things that give her happiness, because if she's looking for all her happiness from the workplace, it's not going to happen.

KING: You wanted to say something, Trish?

MCEVOY: I did. I do think that the workplace is also changing. I think companies today have to understand that people have lives, and if my company is not going to be aware of it, another company will.

KING: Aren't they...

MCEVOY: It's changing. It's changing. Many of the people that work with me have young children, so we have two people doing one job. You have to be accommodating to the changes that are going on, and I think today, companies have to be more family-friendly.

GRAY: And I agree with that, and they're becoming that way, fortunately, and it's a gradual process.

EVANS: But it's very gradual in a lot of places.

And to answer one of the things John said, every day I say to myself "who I am is Gail Evans, what I do is Gail Evans, executive vice president of CNN, and I have to constantly separate, be clear who Gail Evans is.

KING: Men don't separate that a lot. Men say, I'm this, I'm that.

EVANS: That's why they have such a terrible time when they retire.

KING: Who what wants to say -- was that Leeza?

SOMERS: Well, I agree with Gail on that, that I find that men so often define themselves by their accomplishments, and that is certainly something I used to do, and that was a big change I had to make in myself, because if you get fired, if what you are is your accomplishments, and then you get fired, then who are you? What are you? So I have found in my own business that the most important thing for me was to find my gift, do what I love, if possible, and don't take everything so personally, and remember that it's not the problems in your life that define you, but how you respond to them.

KING: We'll take a break, come back, and we'll deal with Gail Evans gender-bender vocabulary words. They're yes, no, guilt, fight and sorry.

We'll be right back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: The book "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman." Gail, this gender-bender vocabulary words: yes, no, guilt, fight, sorry. We'll break that down, and then we'll have the panel go at it -- yes, no, guilt, fight, sorry.

EVANS: Suzanne talked a little about the yes. One of the things I would ad is when we're selling something to somebody, and they say yes, haven't you ever heard a man say to somebody, I said yes, shut up, enough is enough. But we love our "yes." I want you to be convinced this is the best book, not just say it, you know. It's like we want -- we really -- we love our "yes."

KING: How about "sorry?"

EVANS: "Sorry" is like this filler word that we learn someplace. We are sorry about everything. I'm sorry. You tell me you have a bad night, you know, and I tell you I'm sorry, and you actually think I think that I was involved in it. It's like this ridiculous word we use all the time, which is just filler -- sorry, sorry, sorry.

KING: Leeza, just by the nature of it, do you think the man is going to win the $10 million? Just by -- you're already thinking.

GIBBONS: I have my own theory about a woman doing this particular slow. I think that we've assumed that the technological world is not as available to woman, that we're somehow frightened off it, and that's simply not the case. We are stepping up to this challenge dramatically, but you know, I think as women are learning to deal with the duality in our lives that's so necessary, but you never hear a man ask, "How on Earth do you balance it all? You have three children, oh my gosh, and you're an executive. How do you do it? We get asked it all the time. And we can feed our executive side, our management side, and we can feed our nurturing side. And I think Gail is so right; it's the fundamental question of, who are we really?

But you asked at the top of the show how relatable is this particular panel to everywoman out there. There's not a woman watching right now who is not the CEO of her family, guaranteed. That falls to the female role within families. She's more than likely the one who is running that household, and it's a complex management task that demands a lot of the skills that Gail's talking about. The difference is, she knows those rules. She made a lot of those rules. She's aware of it. And where we can benefit from a book like this one is I think we sometimes aren't aware of how the men are thinking and responding to us.

KING: John, does she have a point?

GRAY: She's got a great point. The home rules were basically invented by Veunutians (ph), whom have better relationships. It's up to men to figure out those rules, understand the women, and for women to understand the men so they don't take everything personally. So the whole table changes when you put women in the workplace, the place where men traditionally ruled, and as women move in, it's just a matter of learning those rules, understanding the men, so you don't take things personally, learning to get what you want, make friends of the men, and that's how you get hired. You don't make men your enemies if you want them to become their bosses.

KING: Do you think, Trish -- I'm sorry, who was going to say something?

SOMERS: Suzanne. I was just going to say, except I don't think the workplaces -- I've worked with men like this, that you can accept unacceptable behavior. To be yelled at, as I was at this one person, is just not acceptable.

KING: Anymore.

SOMERS: And I think -- yes, anymore, ever, whatever, but I -- my feeling is you really have to train people to treat you the way you want to be treated. So if somebody's treating you in an unacceptable way, you say, OK, not get emotional, but this won't fly for me.

KING: Do you think men fear women?

GRAY: And that's what will work, Larry, is when you're not able to take it personally, and say, wait a second, this yelling doesn't work, let's just talk, I can hear you, but that's learning to communicate.

KING: Do you think men fear women like you, Trish, women who have made it, run their own business?

MCEVOY: No, absolutely not.

KING: Not intimidated by it?

MCEVOY: Not at all.

KING: Because I have a sense of humor, and that was mentioned in your book. And I think if you have a sense of humor and you make it fun, look, it's a wow.

KING: We'll be back in remaining moments and get some final thoughts from each of our panelists.

Don't go away.


KING: Suzanne, you wrote about change. Gail's book is "Play Like a Man, Win like a Woman." That's change. Is change going to happen?

SOMERS: Change is happening.

And one of the things that I've been thinking about as we're all talking here is how -- what incredible teachers I've had in the men that I've worked with, also, and I would probably put my husband at the top of list, who really taught me the business game. Almost as I was reading Gail's gays book it was like mimicking all the things he's been saying all these years. There's a lot to be learned are the men the in the workforce, and...

KING: Use it?

SOMERS: Yes, use it. And men are cool.

KING: Leeza, do you agree, Leeza, that it's getting better, change is imminent, or change is going to happen no matter what you do?

GIBBONS: I think it's definitely happening. I think men want it to happen. I think they want to understand how to benefit from us, because they see what we bring to a business situation. We are excellent communicators. We know how to nurture people along in a team-like setting. We know how to bet the best out of people, because we genuinely do care. That can never be a bad trait in business. Sometimes we let the emotion override our business strategy, and I think if we can just stop, take a moment, think, and be a little bit more analytical about our approach, we can take that from men; they can take what they can learn from us. And yes, change is absolutely happening. I sit at the big table every day.

KING: And, Leeza, when you give away the $10 million that night on April 15, if it's a man, are you going to think of this show, and if it's a woman, you're going to think of this show, right? Either way, we've got you, right?

GIBBONS: You got it.


GIBBONS: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Dr. Gray, is it inevitable, change inevitable?

GRAY: Absolutely. Change is inevitable. It's happening, and I really will like what Suzanne said about, to make change happen, we need to accept differences, but don't accept abuse. That's the whole secret of it, is slowly create the change, but don't let people abuse you. That's very important. Being a man doesn't give you the excuse to be abusive, but it does give you the excuse to be different, speak a different language.

KING: Trish, are we getting better?

MCEVOY: I think we're getting better, but the key is, you have to change yourself; you can't change others.

KING: As John mentioned and Gail mentioned, you can't make the man different.

MCEVOY: That's right.

KING: So it's up to you.

MCEVOY: It's up to you.

KING: So how do you read this, Gail, as a reference book? I mean, young girls -- who is it best suited for?

EVANS: I think it's sort of fun for anybody, male or female that...

KING: Do you think men would get a lot out of this?

EVANS: The men I know who've read it so far have said, wow, I learned something about how to deal better with the women I work for. You know, I think, ultimately, what the book's about is, girls run out there on the playing field the way the boys do when it's a football came or whatever it is and have a great time. If you love your wife and love what you're doing, it's going to work. Don't try to change who you are and don't be angry and try to change who they are. If you have a great time and are clear who you are, you're going to play the game well.

SOMERS: You know, Larry.

KING: Yes?

SOMERS: Relative to Gail's book, I think it's really an important book for women of my age, Baby Boomers, because we weren't trained to be in business. This is a new phenomena for all of us, whereas the 30-year-old girls, they expected to go into business, so it's a really incredible book for women my age to read.

KING: Thank you all so much, Gail Evans, Suzanne Somers, Leeza Gibbons, Dr. John Gray and Trish McEvoy.

I'm Larry King. The book is "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman."

Thanks for joining us. Good night.



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