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UN's Mea Culpa On Rwanda Genocide

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JEREMY GREENSTOCK, BRITISH AMB. TO UN: There also appears to have been a perception, probably justified, that the Security Council and maybe the UN membership as a whole did not have the political stomach for hearing and responding to the unadorned truth.

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RICHARD ROTH, DIPLOMATIC LICENSE (voice-over): Six years ago, at this very moment, Rwanda was hell on earth. Eight hundred thousand people were eventually slaughtered. The world took its time to even label it a genocide.

Even now, more fallout from the worst moments in UN history. The commander of the modest-sized UN peacekeeping force that was in Rwanda when the killing started has taken early retirement from the Canadian military due to stress-related health symptoms. Lieutenant General Romeo Dallaire says he suffers from psychological wounds and nightmares from witnessing mass murder and being unable to stop it.

It was Dallaire who sent a cable to UN headquarters in New York in January 1994, which warned that Hutu extremists were plotting an armed campaign against the Tutsi minority.

(on camera): Dallaire spoke out publicly for the first time this past week, saying it would be useful therapy.

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LT. GEN. ROMEO DALLAIRE, FORMER UNAMIR CMDR.: You can't crucify the UN when, ultimately, people wanted it to be ineffective.

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ROTH: Hello, and welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

By now, far from the carnage, leading members of the United Nations acknowledge General Dallaire and his forces didn't have proper support or resources. The Security Council, in fact, quickly withdrew almost all of the peacekeepers six years ago after the violence swept the central African nation and then, through inaction, just stood by until the final machete swooped down.

(voice-over): On Friday, the UN Security Council held a public meeting, where basically ambassadors heaped criticism on their own countries and pondered, "How do we prevent this from ever happening again?"

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LLOYD AXWORTHY, CANADIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The Security Council is on the front line in the fundamental question. It's not enough just to authorize peace operations. It's time the council becomes more actively engaged in making sure the capacity is there to carry out these missions quickly and effectively.

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ROTH: The reason for the debate is a report requested by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, which investigated what the UN did wrong in Rwanda. The conclusion - there was a lot of blame to go around, including actions by Secretary-General Kofi Annan, then UN Director of Peacekeeping.

We have talked about this Rwanda probe before on the program. But with the anniversary of the genocide occurring and with the report's recommendations now in full view in the Security Council, four months after it was delivered, we thought it was a good time to have on the program Ingvar Carlsson, the man who led a commission of inquiry into the UN role into Rwanda. The former Swedish Prime Minister told the Security Council Friday of the lack of political will to act, which resulted in paralysis and a danger to the entire UN.

Mr. Carlsson, welcome.

INGVAR CARLSSON, UN RWANDA INQUIRY LEADER: Thank you.

ROTH: What are your major recommendations to the United Nations to prevent genocide from happening again somewhere?

CARLSSON: Well, we need, definitely, strong peacekeeping - peace- making. But in that case, you must have the resources, you must have a strong mandate, and you must have an early warning. That is, you must react when you see the first signs of a risk of a genocide.

ROTH: Now, I think you said you were optimistic because this hearing was taking place. Yet the other day in the UN, I passed a Department of Peacekeeping official who said he was going to a troop contributors meeting to, quote, "read them the riot act," regarding Congo, where nations have promised to send peacekeepers, but yet, they don't supply some of the specialized troops needed. They always talk a good game, and then it's not there. Are you sure this may never happen again?

CARLSSON: No, I'm not sure. I say on the contrary. There are considerable risks that it's going to happen again. And the situation in Congo is very dangerous. I see it as a good sign, though, that representatives on the Security Council are going there to look at it on the spot and, hopefully, understand and react in a proper way. That is, you have to have considerable military and other resources there and in other spots if you are to avoid dangerous situations in the future.

ROTH: Well, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Richard Holbrooke will lead that team to Congo. There have been some promising peacekeeping and cease-fire signs there in the last few days.

What happened with the General Dallaire cable, and do you think that is going to be improved - flow of information from the field back to the UN? Any time people get into the field, they say there's such a disconnect between the UN, that they don't know anything back home. They're always hesitant to act. That in Rwanda, I believe you said and others said, they were more worried about preserving a peace process while thousands were being killed.

CARLSSON: Well, a number of people were aware about the cable, including Kofi Annan, but not all members of the Security Council. And when it comes to serious threat like this, of course, all members of the Security Council should have been informed about that cable.

ROTH: General Dallaire is now, obviously, shattered by this. There is this major report. But why don't you say that someone should resign? Why do people really continue - get promoted? Why is there no, you know, more condemnation of a severe - to make a point that you can't just stay in the UN system if you screw up?

CARLSSON: Well, in that case, a number of countries and not only individuals should resign because practically all parts of the UN system were, in one way or another responsible -the Security Council, then the Secretary General, the Secretariat and all those member states who did not participate at all. We should not forget that also those countries who turned their back completely to Rwanda, sent no military personnel at all to Rwanda. They have also responsibility.

So according to my opinion, the solution is not to say resign, resign. The solution is plan for the future. Learn from Rwanda and avoid making that kind of mistake in the future.

ROTH: At that time, during the genocide, Rwanda, incredibly, was sitting on the Security Council as a non-permanent member. What are your recommendations regarding this type of situation from occurring? And as you know, there are members on the council where, some would say, there's war going on in their own countries. Russia is a permanent member. There's massive violence in Chechnya. What's your recommendation?

CARLSSON: You can't take away the permanent members of the Security Council. But it was a problem that Rwanda and that government, then representing Rwanda, was sitting in the Security Council and had, perhaps, information that was not very good that they had. So we recommend that had to be considered in the future. If a country of that kind will come into conflict, their position in the Security Council should be reconsidered.

ROTH: What were you thinking when you heard all those speeches today with the people flagellating themselves, throwing themselves, almost, on the table, saying we did horribly. It's all bad. It's all wrong. This is six years after the fact.

CARLSSON: Well, that's a good beginning at least. But the interesting thing will be the concrete decisions in the future, making UN stronger, making UN more efficient in peacekeeping, peace making. And that means, resources for United Nations, and they don't have it today.

ROTH: All right. What should the Brahimi (ph) Panel - this is the group that is now going to investigate Rwanda and how to move forward so that this doesn't happen again - what would you like to see that panel come out with?

CARLSSON: They are supposed to evaluate the Srebrenica report and our report. And I hope they will come up with concrete proposals how to make peacekeeping, peace-making more efficient in the future.

ROTH: But right now, you can't rule out Rwanda from occurring again in a place where the UN has different goals and is confused of political direction, right?

CARLSSON: No, I cannot give any guarantees that Rwanda cannot happen again. But we should take actions to avoid that.

ROTH: Ingvar Carlsson, former Swedish prime minister and commission of inquiry leader into what happened in Rwanda - the UN role there, thank you very much for appearing on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, sir.

They are separated by thousands of miles and totally different cast of characters, yet for the United Nations, Rwanda and Srebrenica in Bosnia will always be linked.

(voice-over): In both locations, as civilians desperate for safety rush to UN forces, seeking protection. Mass murder ensued as the UN was powerless. Despite the promises that the UN must do better, the Dutch ambassador is worried.

An envoy, Ambassador Peter Van Walsum, has particular reason to be on guard. It was his country deployed in what was known as a safe area, Srebrenica, only to see Bosnian Serb general Ratko Mladic intimidate Dutch soldiers into sharing gifts, while thousands of Muslims were marched away for execution.

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PETER VAN WALSUM, DUTCH AMB. TO UN: No matter how much we may increase the robustness of our mandates or how widely we broadcast their strict limitations, we can never be sure that frightened civilians will not force their way into the compound of the United Nations peace operation and then expect protection beyond that operation's legal mandate or physical capacity.

Such a situation could once more lead to a humanitarian tragedy. We would not like to give the impression that we have already found a way of making sure that something of this sort will never happen again.

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HANS BLIX, UN CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I'm not sure whether they are waiting for me. You are?

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ROTH (voice-over): New UN weapons chief for Iraq, Hans Blix's first appearance before the Security Council as chief arms inspector was worth waiting for. The question is, how long will he wait before getting his dogged snoopers back into Baghdad to check for weapons of mass destruction.

(on camera): Well, let's not wait a minute more to meet tonight's finalists - oh, the wrong show. Say hello to Afsane Bassir Pour of Le Monde over at our UN office and James Bone of the Times of London.

Afsane, they're forcing Air France pilots to speak only English at Charles de Gaulle, so we must also insist here on you speaking English. So fasten your seatbelts. All right, James Bone.

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Hans Blix - we're going to wait, obviously, for weeks, months maybe, before Iraq says yes. What is he going to do, meanwhile, and perhaps he's got some political opposition, meanwhile, here in the UN even though they accepted his new organizational chore.

JAMES BONE, TIMES OF LONDON: Well, the strange thing, Richard, is that nobody, not even the Americans, wants the inspectors to go in and find anything in Iraq before the American presidential election. If the Americans found a smoking gun in Iraq before November, they would have to do something that would be a big mess for their electoral prospects.

And obviously, Richard Holbrooke, the U.S. ambassador, wants to be a secretary of state, and the Gore administration doesn't want to disrupt his changes. He's tried to keep away as much as possible from the Iraq brief.

Hans Blix, meanwhile, is setting about picking his team. There's a big fight between the major powers about who's going to have the most influence on his team. I actually hear the Chinese are going to get one of the biggest jobs on that, which is a bit of a turn-up and rather different from UNSCOM. Whereas, the Americans are only going to get a relatively junior and unimportant logistics job.

ROTH: Afsane?

AFSANE BASSIR POUR, LE MONDE: As far as the major powers, the five permanent members, are concerned, the real work now begins for them, and that is two-fold. One is to try and persuade Baghdad to let the inspectors in, but France and especially Russia say that if, in principle, Baghdad accepts the return of the inspectors, whom you know haven't been there since December '98, then the U.S. and UK will have to stop the bombings in the no-fly zone. Therefore, they've been linking now, de facto, the return of the inspectors to the stopping of the bombing. That's one point.

Another point is, what will happen to the money if and when the sanctions are, indeed, lifted? They haven't even discussed the financial modalities of what happens to the money. The French are proposing that the five permanent members get together, as of next week, straight away. But as James pointed out, the U.S. is in no hurry to talk about these things.

ROTH: I'm glad you mentioned sanctions because we're going to hear a lot about it at the UN next week. On Monday, there's a big sanctions day, James and Afsane. Who wants to take a shot at what is going on there? Basically, Canada, the lead. They're setting up a committee that may decide how do you enforce these sanctions? They keep delaying it. And in particular, Angola comes up for debate, where Angolan rebels are accused of diamond smuggling and contravention of U.S. sanctions.

BONE: Well, there are two things, Richard. On Monday, there is an open meeting with Security Council, presided over by the Canadian foreign minister, Lloyd Axworthy, on sanctions. On the following day, there's a similar open meeting with a similar cast of characters about Angola.

The first one will set up a group who will study the effectiveness, the humanitarian impact of sanctions and report back to the Security Council. There are issues, for instance, the French have raised. You know, should there be term limits or limited terms for sanctions? Should they be lifted automatically after a certain period, for instance? Because the Iraq sanctions are so controversial, have been on much longer than anybody ever anticipated.

In the Angola sanctions committee, they're going to set up an innovative new body that will continue to monitor breaches of the diamond, fuel and arms embargo by UNITA, the Angolan rebel group. That's something that could be applied to all the other nine sanctions regimes at the UN.

ROTH: This is under that.

BASSIR POUR: Now, we're talking more and more of what they call smart sanctions.

ROTH: .of smart sanctions, right.

BASSIR POUR: That's right.

ROTH: And you've talked about them.

BASSIR POUR: Yeah, exactly.

ROTH: .so enlighten us.

BASSIR POUR: You know, basically, they've decided - they've realized that you can't impose comprehensive sanctions that are not limited in time to any other country anymore because not only - the regime hasn't fallen in the case of Iraq, but the people have really suffered. So they're thinking of smart sanctions, which is targeted sanctions. For example, targeting the regime that is at fault - the bank accounts, travel permits - things like that. They're looking into this, and it's very, very complicated.

BONE: Afsane, you and I have this debate every now and then about Iraq sanctions. Because obviously, Iraq is the case, par excellence, of blunt sanctions or dumb sanctions. I think you could make a very strong case, actually, that the Iraq sanctions have achieved much more than anybody ever expected them to in terms of Iraq's disarmament.

BASSIR POUR: Yeah, but at what price, James? You're not going to get them to.

BONE: And I think, also, that it's a question of collective security. You know, the League of Nations - one of the reasons it failed was because the European powers failed to agree on an oil embargo on Italy when it invaded Abyssinia. And that led to the collapse.

ROTH: Oh, my - wait - whoa.

BASSIR POUR: James, I'm sorry. You know, I mean, I think that human cost of the Iraq sanctions.

ROTH: You lost me on - you didn't lose, but I got to lose you.

BONE: Well, all I'm saying, the human cost - obviously, there's a human cost. The question is whether Saddam Hussein is responsible for that or whether the United Nations is.

ROTH: I'm going to impose targeted host sanctions right now. I got to get 30 seconds in on Lebanon. Afsane, I don't trust James on this for 30 seconds. Go ahead.

BASSIR POUR: You know, this is a very, very tricky operation. The French are actually very much involved. Now, we're expecting - the UN is expecting a letter from Israel within the next 10 days, stating that they will withdrawal unconditionally and all at once to the internationally recognized borders. But where are these internationally recognized borders? Israel keeps talking about the border of 1978, which was the first time that it invaded the southern Sudan - I'm sorry - southern Lebanon.

ROTH: Yeah - whoa. That's a little bit off the map.

BASSIR POUR: Whereas, the UN is talking about the borders of 1948.

ROTH: All right.

BASSIR POUR: Now, a team of experts is supposed to determine that. And another question is whether the size of the UN force already in place, which is about 4,500, will remain at that number or will it go up to about 7,000, in which case, France, maybe Canada and some other countries will be involved.

ROTH: It's going to be a big summer story. Former President Amin Gemayel came to the United Nations to plea for intervention in southern Lebanon. He says the Security Council didn't wait for a call to intervene in East Timor or Kosovo. And now, without the UN's help, the situation in his country could explode.

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AMIN GEMAYEL, FORMER LEBANESE PRESIDENT: I think that the Security Council should take into consideration that there is a place in the world, the south of Lebanon, which could ignite a major problem going beyond the Lebanese borders. And I can tell you that if we don't pay attention to what is going on in the south of Lebanon, I fear that will create a new Kosovo in Lebanon.

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VAN WALSUM: I'm not an expert in that. I don't think I've ever taken a nap in this building. There are better places to take naps.

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ROTH: The Netherlands ambassador was responding to one of the biggest bombshell reports in some time to be written at the United Nations. Diplomats work long hours and erratic hours, just like the reporters who cover them.

However, while journalists are never caught napping on the job, apparently, the people they cover inside the UN, those newsmakers, occasionally require a quiet little place somewhere in world headquarters to rest their weary documents and bones. Not James. Anyway, sit back, but don't nod off and set your alarm clock.

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(voice-over): Diplomats were eager to grab the hottest document at the United Nations. This pamphlet is not about the UN finding world peace or ending global war. No, it's called "Sleeping at the United Nations," a how-to guide written by the former French ambassador at the UN, Alain Dejammet. Now, the UN atmosphere can produce yawns, embarrassing tune-outs, even in the audience.

ROBERT FOWLER, CANADIAN AMB. TO UN: I look forward to learning some important tips.

ROTH: Catnapping diplomats. Here they are. The corridor between the Security Council and the Trusteeship Council. Based on a high of 20 points, this hallway gets 14, with good marks for comfortable armchairs and shadows, but losing value for difficulty in finding a seat.

The delegates lounge is panned for intrusive announcements of ambassadors and green plants hanging over chairs. "Too large to move," the book says. "May pinch one's nose in a very unpleasant way." Score -- 10, graded as simply convenient.

VAN WALSAM: We always thought that Alain Dejammet was -- went to the UN to work hard, and this is a great discovery that he was taking naps at the same time.

ROTH: One of the best places -- the UN library. The author says resembles an abandoned monastery. Not recommended -- the Indonesian lounge, troubling sunlight and noisy bodyguards.

NANCY SODERBURG, DEPUTY U.S. AMB. TO UN: Every time I go into a corner of the UN, I will now think of Alain Dejammet with renewed delight.

ROTH: Diplomats may, but not the media, which is under orders to not lie back.

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(on camera): OK, James Bone, what's your report on his report on sleeping at the UN?

BONE: Well, I'd just like to say that Alain Dejammet was better known while he was serving at the UN, for putting other diplomats to sleep with his somewhat soporific speeches, than he was for sleeping himself, so it's a big revelation.

ROTH: Afsane Bassir Pour, this was your story. You broke this story. What is your sense of it? I mean, many people say that that means that he was sleeping at the UN.

BASSIR POUR: Absolutely not. You know, Alain Dejammet is known for being a workaholic. But he's a very humorous person. Of course, it's a very dry humor. And we're just used to seeing - it's not diplomats that are sleeping, mostly. It's international civil servants. We're used to it.

But apparently, he took notes from the first days that he arrived. And being very funny, he wrote this guide. Now, it's become so popular that I heard the French mission is, indeed, intending to publish it - translate it into English, publish it and sell it. It could become a bestseller. And they're asking people to add new places that they have discovered personally where diplomats can sleep.

BONE: You know, Afsane, how times change. It's part of UN legend that a former French ambassador to the United Nations once boasted that he had once made love in the middle of the Security Council horseshoe- shaped table to a UN official.

BASSIR POUR: What? I didn't know that.

BONE: It was several decades ago, but.

BASSIR POUR: I see.

ROTH: So, would you be interested in buy a book, where to make love inside the United Nations over a book on where to sleep? Or maybe the two go together. I still love this report by Alain Dejammet, who was in Paris, right? Awaiting a post - a new post, after he.

BASSIR POUR: He's going to the Vatican.

BONE: A four-poster.

ROTH: He's going to the Vatican.

BASSIR POUR: He's going to the Vatican in May, and he has another two and a half years before he retires.

BONE: That's going to be an interesting (INAUDIBLE).

BASSIR POUR: And I understand that he's thinking of making a film about the UN. That should be very funny.

ROTH: Or a sequel - where to sleep inside the Vatican. You know, in the area - the vending machine area near the General Assembly, he says there are card tables there, but it's a vast corridor as silent as a Las Vegas dessert. And the Secretariat entrance, which we didn't show in that report - tough place to sleep because he says.

BASSIR POUR: You know, I think, Richard.

ROTH: .major inconvenience - horrible odor coming from the cafeteria. You can't buy this stuff.

BASSIR POUR: I think it's actually - you know, some people said we shouldn't have done this because this confirms the cliché about the UN. But I think that it's a good thing we did publish it both in America and in Europe so that it'll stop them from sleeping. I mean, it's ridiculous to see them sleeping.

ROTH: All right, Afsane Bassir Pour, James Bone, thank you. That is DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I think I hear an ambassador snoring, James, under our table right now. We'll see you next week.

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