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Larry King Live

A Panel Serves up Their Opinions on the News of the Day

Aired May 10, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, we're shooting from the lip, and everything's a target. Tammy Faye Messner joins us from Charlotte, North Carolina; Oscar-winner Whoopi Goldberg, the star of "Hollywood Squares," is with me in L.A; in New York, Jon Stewart, the host of Comedy Central's "The Daily Show," who appears at Carnegie Hall next month; and in Washington, Tucker Carlson, writer for "The weekly Standard" and "Talk" magazine. They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We could call tonight's guests "Who's Coming to Dinner?" What a dinner party it would be with these four. I'm going to ask some individual questions of each, one for each, and then move into general discussions on all topics, and we'll include your phone calls.

Whoopi, I know you're involved in this Revlon run/walk in L.A. this weekend for breast cancer.


KING: And pushing the idea of getting people to take mammograms.

GOLDBERG: Well, yes, it's necessary. You know how hard it is to get people to go to the doctor. And not only is it important, but it's the number-one killer really of women in the United States, and aside from getting them to get their mammograms, I'm asking them to send these mammograms for a second look to, which has technology that can detect pretty much 61 percent of the time.

KING: I didn't know that.


KING: So you take your mammogram and just put it into

GOLDBERG: You send us your mammogram, along with your radiologists, because we're the radiologists' second pair of eyes, and our technology allows us to pinpoint what the radiologist may have missed with the naked eye.

KING: And people pay to walk in this walk.

GOLDBERG: They pay to walk in this walk, and they talk to talk, Larry.

KING: You're a great girl, Whoopi.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

KING: Jon Stewart, you're going to appear at Carnegie Hall on June 8. Is this a one-man show?

JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": Yes, it's an hour standup show, an hour and a half, but I kind of feel like an ass, because it's not for charity, it's just for me, and Whoopi is doing something real nice, so I'm just going to mention that it's also to feed people, because they're hungry.


KING: In other words, you will take the money you receive at Carnegie Hall that night, and what? Feed friends?

STEWART: Feed some people, probably my family.

Can I ask you a question though, Larry?

KING: Yes.

STEWART: Why does Tucker get to where a bow tie, because I know he's not Nation of Islam?

KING: We'll ask that of him in a minute. Tucker looks great tonight after getting out of Vietnam.

Tammy Faye, the documentary "The Eyes of Tammy Faye," which has gotten a lot of great reviews.


KING: When does that open?

MESSNER: That opens in July.

KING: And that'll be nationwide in theaters, right?

MESSNER: It will be the first -- the 12-largest markets first, and then goes on to the other markets, and so that's -- it's like a bomb has exploded in my life, Larry, since that thing has hit. I went back to Charlotte, North Carolina, where I am, to be a grandma to two my two little grandboys, and all of a sudden...

KING: You're a hit.

MESSNER: ... seems like a bomb has hit my life again. I'm back with you.

KING: You let them follow you around and anything goes, right?

MESSNER: Yes, that's right.

KING: That's Tammy Faye. And let's ask Tucker Carlson, why do you where bow ties?

TUCKER CARLSON, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": Salam alaykum. I don't know. I just always have. You don't spill toothpaste on them.

GOLDBERG: I always knew you were a brother, Tucker.

CARLSON: Well, thank you, Whoopi. I am in a way. I don't know why. I actually once did a story on the Nation of Islam, and they sort of welcomed me in a way I don't think they would have otherwise.

KING: And you tie them? They're not clip-on, right?

CARLSON: Are they clip-ons?

KING: Yes, clip-ons.

CARLSON: I'm not even registering that question it's so deeply offensive. No, no, of course, I tie them, not very well, but kind of.

KING: They're hard to tie. For the person who wears long ties, bow ties are a difficult...

CARLSON: Yes, it's sort of a daily dexterity text, but I pass.

STEWART: I'm wearing a dickey.

KING: Are you fully out of the Vietnam syndrome now?

CARLSON: I am totally.

KING: Good to have you back, Tucker.

CARLSON: Thanks.

KING: OK, let's get into our first subject. We'll start with Whoopi and go around.

CARLSON: What is it with everybody wants to be a millionaire, millionaire shows going through the roof? There's a millionaire show in every country. I was in South Africa. It's a blazing hit.

GOLDBERG: Well, there they need millionaires.

KING: Yes. We get lotteries, and people go from state to state to invest money and the odds are 800 million to 1. The question for all of us, we start with Whoopi, is why?

GOLDBERG: Why not? It's the American dream: come someplace, do better than parents did. You know, being a millionaire used to be a big deal. Now you can go on television and be a millionaire, doesn't mean anything.

KING: We've had quiz shows go off and come back. Why this sudden splurge? GOLDBERG: Because there is enough money to go around and it is possible for everybody to get a piece of the pie. I think there's also a greed factor, but I think it has to do with people sort of looking around saying, you know, it's possible dummies can make billions of dollars.

KING: Jon, what do you make of it?

STEWART: First of all, I enjoy pie very much. I think it's delicious. I think that years ago...

GOLDBERG: What kind of pie, Jon?

STEWART: Apple, French apple. Years ago we used to challenge our culture with questions. The questions were, how many roads must a man walk down before he becomes a man? One, two, three, what are we fighting for? What's new pussycat? You know, we challenged ourselves. Now it's, who wants to be a millionaire? You know, they're obvious questions.

KING: It's obvious to you that this is greed and a chance to make money quickly for basically not doing anything.

STEWART: But who wouldn't want to be a millionaire? That's like saying who wants to go to a bar and have sex with ladies? Who's going to say no to that? It shouldn't be a question.

GOLDBERG: Me, Jon. I'm sorry, it is a question.

KING: Tammy Faye, what do you make of this? Maybe it's weird to ask Tammy Faye this. What do you make of the greed factor?

MESSNER: Well, you know, I've had money and I've not had money, and it's easier having money, but I think I'm just as happy not having money. So you know, it's all relevant.

STEWART: Can I have your money?


STEWART: Then can I have your money?

MESSNER: Well, I don't have a lot. But I would share.

KING: One at a time, guys. We're in different cities.

Would you buy a lottery ticket, Tammy Faye?

MESSNER: I've never bought a lottery ticket.

KING: Never bought one?

MESSNER: Never bought one. Been tempted to, and don't know why I haven't. It's not that I think that they're wrong, I just haven't done it.

KING: Tucker, what do you make of all of this, current fad?

CARLSON: Well, I would have picked Tammy Faye as a lottery player. I am sort of surprised she doesn't play. I mean, I hate to sound like Ralph Nader or a leftist or anything, but I actually think greed isn't that good for America, and it's actually not good for people to, sort of, sit around waiting to win the lottery or go on TV and win on a quiz show.

MESSNER: Or spending all your money to try to win it.

KING: Why, Tucker -- we would expect the Republican in you to say it's a good idea to just want money?

CARLSON: Yes, I'm not sure it's bad to want money, but it's probably better to recognize that people -- it's pretty hard to make money, actually, and very people, you know, make a dot.coms, and far fewer, of course, make it in the lottery, and it's actually kind of hard, and you have to go to work a lot to do it most of the time, and to pretend otherwise is probably delusional and bad for people.


KING: Hold on, one at a time.

Who wanted to say something? Jon.

STEWART: I was just going to say Tucker's point is probably that he feels that it's bad for everyone to have greed, and it's only good for the Republicans to have it. That way...

CARLSON: You're spot on, Jon. That's what I'm saying.

STEWART: Keep the money centered in that sort of right-wing area, and it's much healthier for the country.

KING: And then lower their taxes.

We'll take a break. When we come back, lots more to talk about, including Elian. What do you think this group thinks? Don't go away.


KING: Let's go around the horn on this one. We'll try, folks, not to overlap each other, because we're in four different cities, and I will try to get to all of you. We'll start with Jon this time around. This question is simple. In fact, it's a one-word question.

Elian -- what do you make of the whole story?

STEWART: Larry, I'm glad you brought that up. I haven't heard about it in over two hours.


I think whatever your feelings are about Castro, I think it's time we put politics aside and realized children belong with their great-uncles.


They always have. This is a situation, it's clearly -- it's a family matter. It's not a situation -- I can tell you that I think Janet Reno had to use force, because as a Jewish person will tell you, any Jewish person, because the terror that you feel when you hear the phrase Miami relatives, there's nothing you can do, nothing you can do.

KING: Tammy Faye, does Elian belong with his father?

MESSNER: Well, I think probably he does belong with his father, but I think that he also has a right to stay in the United States. I think if they kick little Elian out, then they're going to have to, you know, follow with the same with all the rest of them that are here. But I do think a child belongs with his father, so maybe dad will decide to stay.

KING: That's your hope, that dad stays,

MESSNER: I hope so.

KING: Tucker, what's your read on this whole saga, with a big court case coming up tomorrow dealing with it? Finally, we're back to it again.

CARLSON: Well, I went down there a couple times to see it and was struck by a lot of things, but one, it was amazing I think at how liberals were so upset by it. I think of liberals of being in favor of street demonstrations. I kind of like street demonstrations -- people jump around with signs and stuff. And always think of liberals being pro-civil disobedience, et cetera, and all of a sudden, the Miami relatives aren't exercising civil disobedience there.

You know, I don't know thugs and hooligans that we need, you know, armed federal marshals with machine guns to go take the boy. It's remarkable how things have changed. I don't know. I like it when people burn tires in the street. I thought it was a great spectacle.

STEWART: I always thought Republicans were for family values, though.

CARLSON: You're insightful man, Jon Stewart, I'm impressed. It's a changing world.

STEWART: That's what happens when you shower.

KING: Tucker, do you think the boy belongs with his father?

CARLSON: Sure, I don't know, I think it's probably best he's with his father. But I think it's not best that he goes back to Cuba. We're all sort of pretending he'll go back and be fine, and he won't, and he'll be used as political prop, and that's a shame, and I wish people would sort of face up to and face up to it and say that publicly more often.

STEWART: Unlike here.

KING: And Whoopola, what thinketh you?

GOLDBERG: Yes, I was just going to say that, Jon. I was just going to make...


GOLDBERG: No, that's OK, I like it when you say it.

You know, I have very mixed feelings about this.

KING: Really?

GOLDBERG: Because I watch Haitian folks come across, and I watch them get shipped back to Haiti, and I watched lots of...

KING: The next day.

GOLDBERG: Really next day, and they don't care about breaking up families. So you know, what's the real question? What is the real question? Why are we more upset about Elian than we are about the Haitians, or the Japanese, or the Chinese people or the Mexicans who are coming across the border?

KING: Do you think it's party to do with the way he came over? Obviously, his mother died. Two, the way he looks. Three, that's a centralized community.

GOLDBERG: I don't know what the reason is. I just know that there is an imbalance that disturbs me. And you know, Tucker dear, as a liberal, which you seem to say with such disdain, it just breaks my heart.

CARLSON: Oh, it's love.

GOLDBERG: Is it? Is it? Because I was wondering about that, because I know you have to have such dexterity to tie that tie.

CARLSON: It's gently chastising love.

KING: That's right, they love each other. Liberals -- we all know liberals and conservatives love each other.

GOLDBERG: That's right. That's right.

But I do think it's sort of an important question that goes beyond Elian. Yes, of course children belong with parents if parents can take care of them. But what is it we're fighting? Are we fighting Castro? Or are we fighting the idea that this boy has run from one country to another? What's the real deal, you know? And until that question for me is answered, I don't really have an answer for it.

KING: Go ahead.

STEWART: I was going to say, do we need any children? I mean, can't we send them all somewhere? I find they're kind of a drag. They talk in movies. They're sort of annoying.

GOLDBERG: Look around New York, Jon. You'll see all kinds of children sent away from home with lots of little black ladies rolling them around in carriage, man. No children stay at home.


KING: Get rid of all children, a new concept from Jon Stewart.

We're going to take a break. And as we go to break, Bush and McCain got together yesterday. Bush was on the show last night. We'll ask the panelists about it. But here's what Jay Leno said about it last night.


JAY LENO, HOST: Well, earlier today, Senator John McCain officially endorsed George W. Bush for president. I don't know if you saw that. You see Bush and McCain together? They didn't look that comfortable. The kind of forced little smiles. They look like the guys from the erectile dysfunction ad -- Hi, how are you? Good to see you. Hi, nice to see you. Yes, it's good to see you,.


McCain didn't look too happy. You know McCain? He looked like he did in the prisoner of war videos, you know, where he's blinking out the code -- I'm here against my will. These bastards are holding me captive. You know, it's amazing, McCain was held for 5 1/2 years by the North Vietnamese, didn't crack, was tortured, never cracked. An hour with Bush, he goes all right, fine, I endorse him, get the hell out of here. Couldn't take it.




KING: We'll be going for calls, by the way, for our eclectic panel at the bottom of the hour.

Let's start with Tammy Faye on this one. Speaking of forgiveness, Tammy has been called upon to forgive in her life. What do you make of Bush-McCain?

MESSNER: Well, it's an interesting scenario. I think it's very nice what he did. I think he sure gained some of my -- he gained respect from me, McCain did when he -- you know, when he threw in with Bush. I like Bush very much, and I'm going to vote for him, so it made me happy. I don't know if it's going to mean anything that he did that, but it was a nice gesture. KING: And what did you make of it, Tucker Carlson?

CARLSON: Well, I was there, and I have to say, Jay Leno had it right. It was like a particularly long, vigorous prostate exam. I mean, it was awful. It was really uncomfortable. Bush came out. Bush sort of won. He got the endorsement. He needed it.

And McCain, it's not clear what he got. I mean, he ended his campaign. I remember during the campaign, they had this slogan, the McCain people did, "Burn it down." And a while, I thought, and I think other people thought he meant it, that he was going to run third party or do something dramatic and destructive, but it just sort of came to a fizzling end in the basement of this hotel in Pittsburgh. It was sort of sad.

KING: There are a lot of right-wing radio talk show, I'm told -- I didn't hear this -- around the country saying the media is making a bigger thing of this than it is.

CARLSON: Please, I actually don't think I'll be able to keep dinner down if I hear that again. I mean, that's ludicrous. McCain is just a charming guy. He ran a sort of a "good guy" candidacy. I mean, his ideas were sort of airy, and I kind of thought ludicrous, but he is a good guy. And he ran on that, and people liked it, and the press liked it, too. There's no conspiracy there.

KING: Whoopi?

GOLDBERG: Yes, Larry?

KING: What do you make of McCain-Bush?

GOLDBERG: Not a damn thing.

KING: You don't care at all?

GOLDBERG: Not about -- no, no.

KING: You don't care?

GOLDBERG: I don't care.

KING: You're an American.

GOLDBERG: I am an American. Do I really think John McCain gives a rat's butt about Bush? No, please. Do I need to think about this? No. I've got hair problems, Larry. I've got, you know, things I got to really concentrate on. I'm glad they made peace. I'm glad it's not going to be like a rumble in Washington.

KING: You don't need that, right?

GOLDBERG: Please, no.

KING: And Mr. Stewart, what's your insight into the coming together of Messieurs Bush and McCain? STEWART: I just want to know how Tucker Carlson -- he's like Zelig -- everything we're talking about, he was there.


You know, with Elian Gonzalez, yes, I was in Cuba doing a thing. What's next?

CARLSON: Yes, well, it's because I don't have a daily comedy show on cable, so I can get to other places.

STEWART: Damn you, Carlson.

I think Bush-McCain, quite frankly, you know, clearly Bush made a Vietnam War hero look bad during his campaign. So imagine what he can do to Gore? I mean, if you were in New York during the primaries, you saw the ads that literally by the end of it you were like, John McCain is for breast cancer? Wow. These things, they were the most vitriolic ads I've seen anybody run in New York. Literally, it would be like McCain and Hitler sharing a sandwich.

KING: So what?

STEWART: George Bush was brutal. He made a Vietnam War hero look bad.

KING: So why do you think McCain forgave him?

STEWART: I'm sure that people that he respects backdoor brokered a deal where he decided to tow the line, and it's a shame, because I thought McCain really stood out as an independent during his run, and that was the most interesting thing about him. So unfortunately, we've lost the most interesting thing about him.

MESSNER: Well, I think, if you can't beat him, join him.

KING: That's the way it came out. Well said.

STEWART: I have that embroidered on a pillow on my couch, actually.

GOLDBERG: It's tattooed on your butt, Jon.

KING: We'll take a break. We'll come right back. We'll discuss some other topics. But here on this topic of Bush-McCain, before we leave it, is what Letterman of -- equal time -- what Letterman had to say last night.


DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST: These are the reasons John McCain has endorsed George W. Bush:

No. 10: setting record endorsing most dumb, rich white guys.

No. 9: the fact that people who don't endorse him often end up in the electric chair.

No. 8: Bush hinted he might be able to bring back "Beverly Hills 90210."

No. 7: George Bush has videotape of McCain Partying with him in the '80s.

No. 6: figured what's the difference: Gore's going to whip him a gimp donkey anyway.

No. 5: the skip in his step, the twinkle in the eye -- the man's in love.

No. 4: Bush vowed to brush up on foreign leaders, like that French what's-his-face.

No. 3: Four horrendous years with Bush equals President McCain in 2004.

No. 2: very persuasive argument presented by Bush's drug kingpin friends.

And the No. 1 reason John McCain is endorsing George W.: tired of Bush calling him middle of night screaming "Pleeeeeease!"



KING: Tucker, we'll start with you. What's happened to private lives? We now have stuff that will come on MTV's real-life series. CBS is going to have a series this year putting people together like on an island, see who can survive. The No. 1 show in Norway, 83 percent, times the audience of "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?" is watching a show about people living in a house who don't know each other.

What do you make of this?

CARLSON: Of Norwegian television viewing habits.

KING: No, real-life television, live televisions.

CARLSON: Well, I think you'd have to be pretty odd to want to live in a house with strangers and have it videotaped for a year, and I think you'd have to be -- I can sort of see the appeal of watching it, though, maybe for 20 minutes. I don't know, it seems to me if you put yourself in that situation, you get what you deserve. If you run for mayor of New York and embarrassing things revealed about your private life, I don't know, you signed up for it.

KING: Anything goes, Whoopi?

GOLDBERG: No, no, not anything goes, but people are into it, you know. It's kind of scary, because I just don't want to be in the bathroom wondering, like, if there's like a little camera. KING: Why do you think, as Tucker said, we like watching it, if for only 20 minutes?

GOLDBERG: People are voyeuristic. They want to see, is it better than my life? Is it going to be as good as my life? Is there anything I can learn from this? And how's the sex?


KING: Jon, "The Truman Show" comes real, right?

STEWART: Well, to a certain extent, but the privacy issue is much larger than just seven people living in a house to find out, you know, when they start being polite or whatever the hell they say. The privacy issue has got much more to do with all the information that we sort of give away about ourselves into the ether of the computer land. That to me is a much larger issue than whether or not we see seven Dutch people while they pee.

STEWART: This is cable, right? Tammy, the word "pee" has got you cringing.

MESSNER: Got me cringing, got me crazy. I say wee-wee.

STEWART: Tammy Faye Bakker is cringing on the word "pee."

MESSNER: I say wee-wee!

GOLDBERG: You say "wee-wee"?

STEWART: Do you have any ideas the articles I had to read about you and the other guy? And you're cringing at "pee"?

GOLDBERG: You say "wee-wee"? Is that what you just said?

MESSNER: That's what I say, Whoopi.

GOLDBERG: You say "wee-wee," OK.

MESSNER: But you know, I think that's the problem with America today. We're just all nosy, and we can't wait to peek into someone else's lives.

GOLDBERG: Did you say peek in?

KING: Would you peek in, Tammy?

MESSNER: I peek in a little bit, but not for very long.


KING: OK, so Jon...

MESSNER: I include myself in that.

KING: So Jon Stewart wins that round. For 20 minutes, Tammy Faye would watch.

We'll take a break and come back. We'll talk about other things, include your phone call. In case you don't know who they are, we will introduce this panel.

GOLDBERG: Wee-wee.

KING: The only way to follow this is tomorrow night with Kathie Lee Gifford. We'll be right back.


KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Let's meet our panel. We've assembled four disparate folks tonight. They are, in Charlotte, North Carolina, Tammy Faye Messner, the former Tammy Faye Bakker, and you'll see her in the documentary "The Eyes of Tammy Faye," which has been given great critical attention. Here in Los Angeles is Whoopi Goldberg, the host of "Hollywood Squares," involved with the Mammogram --


KING: ... online, the breast exam analysis. She had mentioned that breast cancer was the biggest killer of women. Of course, heart disease and cancer are. Heart disease is the biggest killer. But for individually, when we break it down by gender, women -- more women die of breast cancer as more men would die of prostate cancer, although we know more men die of heart disease.

I think you understand what I'm talking about. It's gender- related.

Anyway, she's also with, a partner in the online gift service.

You're with everything...

GOLDBERG: Yes, you know...

KING: You're an enterprise.

GOLDBERG: ... Mother's Day. Come on. I've got to make a dime.

KING: Jon...


Jon Stewart is the host of "The Daily Show" on Comedy Central, one of the funniest things on television, and he appears in concert June 8th at Carnegie Hall in New York.

And there's our man, in Washington, Tucker Carlson, staff writer of "The Weekly Standard," a regular on CNN. Writer for "Talk" magazine and CNN political analyst.

STEWART: Comb your hair, hippy! Comb your hair, hippy! (LAUGHTER)


KING: Let's talk about the New York race. We'll start this time with Whoopi. Giuliani announced today he is separating. We know that Hillary has had problems. Do you think that washes it out? Does marriage play a part in this election?

GOLDBERG: You're asking me about marriage! You should ask Tucker. He's probably never been married.

What do you think, Tuck?

CARLSON: Oh, I'm married with three kids, and I think it's bad, as a general matter politically, when your wife gets up and gives a teary press conference accusing you of sleeping with one of your staff. It's not good politically in New York.

GOLDBERG: Have you found that to be the truth?

CARLSON: I have.

GOLDBERG: Has it happened to you?

CARLSON: It hasn't. I've never run for office.

KING: Do you think -- you think that was poor today for...

CARLSON: Yes, I...

KING: What are you calling it, Tucker? I mean, it was the truth, so...

CARLSON: Well, bad karma among other things. Yes, I mean, it -- you know, it just can't help. I mean, people say, oh, New York's like Paris, et cetera, et cetera. But there are probably still some people who think it's bad when a mayor's wife again starts crying on TV because her husband's, you know, sleeping with his aide.

Yes, I don't know.

KING: All right. Is the personal life -- let's ask it this way then, Whoopi and then Jon and then Tammy. The personal life of a public figure, our business?

GOLDBERG: No. It's just not.

KING: Period, no?

GOLDBERG: No. Period, no.

KING: So in the Rudy-Hillary race, marriage should not come up?


KING: Period?

GOLDBERG: Unless they're, you know, going to be making decisions about who you're supposed to be sleeping with. No. I want to know, are you going to raise my taxes, are you going to feed my kid at Head Start? Who you're boning, I could care -- take the sheep home.



KING: Well-put.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

KING: Jon Stewart, is it our business?

STEWART: I think -- I think it's valid, because let's say Giuliani gets elected and then ends up sleeping with, let's say, the Congress or let's say sleeping with another country, like France. France is easy. I've been to France.

He could do that. He could drunk one night and wake up night and go, oh, my god, I banged Germany. You know, that could happen.


I think it's nobody's business. You ever watch the show "Cops."

KING: Yes.


STEWART: Watch the show "Cops." Every now and again you'll see people's faces are blurred out...

KING: Right.

STEWART: ... and that's because they didn't sign releases. So basically what we're saying in this country, the people who are being arrested on "Cops" have more of a right to privacy than people who are running for Senate.

CARLSON: That's exactly what we're saying. That's exactly what we're saying.

STEWART: That's sort of a strange oxymoron.

CARLSON: Well, no, it's not. The people getting arrested for drinking malt liquor in public on "Cops" aren't going to be making decisions on your life...

GOLDBERG: How do you know?

CARLSON: ... whereas the people in Congress are.

STEWART: Since when... (CROSSTALK)

GOLDBERG: Have you ever been to any of those gigs?

KING: One at a time. One at a time.

GOLDBERG: Have you ever been to any of those gigs, those cocktail parties? You think those guys aren't drinking malt liquors and making decisions the next day hungover.

Tucker, grow up. Come on.

CARLSON: Oh, of course, they are. Of course, they are.

GOLDBERG: Well, tell us what's the difference.

CARLSON: Well, the difference is we know about those people, because we have a free press covering them, and it's important, because...

STEWART: What correlation is there?

KING: So you're saying...


CARLSON: ... come up for election we ought to be able to know all we can about them. I don't know why...

KING: So you're saying...

STEWART: That's completely untrue. That's completely untrue.

KING: All right. If someone on the...

STEWART: We have micromanaged the great people out of our government. Nobody of great leadership anymore wants any part of it.

CARLSON: Name three great people who have been discouraged for running for office. Who are these great people everyone talks about? Who are they? Where are they? Where do they live?

GOLDBERG: Oh, Tucker, come on. Come on.


STEWART: Can I -- can I say what they are?

GOLDBERG: Colin Powell? How about Colin Powell?

KING: Yes.

STEWART: Let me say what they are.

GOLDBERG: Colin Powell...

CARLSON: OK, there's one.

GOLDBERG: ... was run out by your guys.

KING: All right. One at a time. Jon, who are they?

STEWART: The great people we have discouraged from running are the people we have now that we shine such a bright microscopic light on to that we saw all the cracks in the facade. And the same thing would have been done to Martin Luther King, John F. Kennedy, Abraham Lincoln, all the wonderful amazing leaders that we've had in the past if we had this same vicious, locust-like press that we have now back then.

So those are the great leaders that we would have lost.

KING: Well, the one person -- the one person on the panel who might -- we might say has been a victim of this is Ms. Messner. So what do you make of it? Is your private life our business?

MESSNER: I'm really -- I'm really mad at the guy. And I think if a man can't run his own family and make a successful family, how in the world can he run a country or a state or anything else? That's what I think.

STEWART: Or a ministry.

MESSNER: Or a ministry. True.

KING: So you think, Tammy Faye, that is our business?

MESSNER: Yes, I do. I think we...

KING: If a president or a mayor...

MESSNER: I think we ought to be more careful who we vote for and I think that the public -- I think that we -- that people who are leaders owe it -- I think they should take some responsibility in their private lives.

KING: How about hypocrisy...

STEWART: Tammy, did you like Reagan? Ask her if she liked Reagan.

MESSNER: Yes, I like -- I did like Reagan. Yes.

STEWART: He was divorced.

MESSNER: I know that, and I'm not saying divorced, but I'm saying publicly getting out there and just -- and not -- you know...

STEWART: Good point.

MESSNER: ... just being blatant about it. I'm trying to get a word, blatant about it.

GOLDBERG: Can I -- can I...

KING: How...

GOLDBERG: Just to answer or ask a question. Colin Powell probably would have made a great president.


KING: But his wife doesn't want him to run.

GOLDBERG: Well, but also the stuff that they started doing in the press to him about his family life. I just think it's not applicable. And I don't -- I don't think it's fair.

KING: Tucker, what about hypocrisy? I mean, we have Newt Gingrich criticize Clinton and then we discovered things about Newt Gingrich.


KING: This is not just one party or the other. Is the whole thing almost like hypocritical?

CARLSON: Well, I think it's interesting. Well, Newt's a great point. I mean, Newt turned out to be kind of a creep, and I think that's valuable information and I wish I had that earlier. And I think American voters, certainly in his district in Georgia, I bet they knew that.

I don't know. I don't know why all of a sudden people -- you can argue with a straight face that a huge part of a person's life is somehow irrelevant to how he's going to lead. I mean, these people have a lot of power. This is important.

KING: Tucker, why do you think liberals -- you're very rare in that case, but most conservatives would hedge this, as most liberals would. They wouldn't call Gary Hart a creep.

Why do you think that is? Why do they try to defend what might be defenseless?

CARLSON: I don't know why. I don't know, because they don't -- the idea is that if you admit one small fault, then the whole facade comes tumbling down and you have to admit everything. I don't think that's true. I mean, people are pretty forgiving and understanding and will accept certain faults. But a pattern of behavior, I don't know -- people...

MESSNER: What are we teaching our young people?

CARLSON: Look, the bottom line is people ought to be able to judge for themselves. Voters ought to have the most amount information at their fingertips to make the decision. I don't see how you can argue against that.

GOLDBERG: So are you -- well, because I've been on the other side of it, and I know how offensive...

CARLSON: Did you run for office?

GOLDBERG: No, I didn't run for office, but I'm a public person, and we're talking about public people, are we not?

CARLSON: No, but that's the difference. I don't think that your private life should be investigated, but then you're not running for office. You're not running people's lives.

GOLDBERG: Well, I might.

KING: Are you saying -- are you saying people who are -- if you run for public office, are you saying...

GOLDBERG: If I run for public office, it's none of your business who I'm sleeping with. None of your business.

CARLSON: Well, then I'm not voting for you then.

STEWART: Well, let me ask you this, Tucker...

GOLDBERG: Well, then you're a fool, because what you're saying is that based on whether I'm sleeping with the county...

CARLSON: That's not at all what I'm saying obviously.

GOLDBERG: Well, what are you saying, Tucker, because I'm misunderstanding?


CARLSON: I'm just saying -- I'm just saying that voters ought to know as much as they can about a candidate. I don't know why no one...

MESSNER: Where are our role models?

GOLDBERG: Where is a line drawn? Where do you draw the line?

MESSNER: Where are our role models?

CARLSON: Well, I don't know. Voters draw the line for themselves.

KING: Well, Tammy, you want to say something, then Jon. Tammy...

MESSNER: Yes. Where are our role models? I remember a time when we used to respect our leaders and we looked up to our leaders. What has happened in the United States of America? That is frustrating.

STEWART: Tammy...

KING: Jon... STEWART: ... the people are the same people they always were, it's just now we know more about them.

MESSNER: Maybe that's bad.

STEWART: It's the same -- that's where your role models went. They're all the same people.

What I'd like to say to Tucker is, you know, what about the integrity of the media? Now, you guys...

CARLSON: Ooh, the media, oooh!

STEWART: ... who are pundits -- or just pundits. Forget about the media. You, let's say. Just you.


STEWART: Credibility is, in terms of being part of the free press, an awful large aspect of people's respect for you, right?


STEWART: You have to have credibility...

CARLSON: Of course.

STEWART: ... so people know they have the integrity. So is your private life also in the same way? Should people know as much about the people who give us our news and analyze our news...


STEWART: ... as they do about who runs our government?

CARLSON: That's a very deep question, Jon.

STEWART: And the second point is...

MESSNER: Very good.

STEWART: ... if I thought it was about information, if I thought you were just trying to collect information so I could make a more informed judgment on my candidates, I would welcome it. But what I feel like you're doing is selling papers and getting ratings, and that's all it is.

MESSNER: Amen! Amen! Amen!

STEWART: And it doesn't feel like it has any integrity to it.

CARLSON: See, I -- this...

KING: Tucker, are we entitled to your private life?

CARLSON: Well, of course, I don't feel like you are. GOLDBERG: Well, duh!

CARLSON: Of course not. But on the other hand, I mean, I would have to -- it would be sort of hard to argue, you know, I mean, if someone wanted to do a story on me, you know, I wouldn't be able to argue that they ought not to be allowed to or that somehow that should be regulated or something like that. I mean, I wouldn't like it. Rudy Giuliani doesn't like. Clinton didn't like it. But tough luck.

KING: Let me get a break. We'll come back with more. We'll include your phone calls. Don't go away.


KING: Let's include some calls for our erstwhile panel. Kinnelon, New Jersey, hello.

CALLER: Hi. I applaud Whoopi and I applaud Jon with their view. I'm wondering perhaps if the media is definitely making our decisions by the way they perceive the different candidates.

KING: Do you think -- what's the media effect on this, do you think? Tucker, what do you think? What is the effect of television on races?

CARLSON: Well, it's enormous. I mean, that's why candidates spend tens of millions of dollars every cycle buying TV ads, and free media, I mean shows like this, yes, have a huge effect on how people see candidates.

KING: But the people hosting it aren't the decision-makers, are we? I mean, what is the media, who is the media?

CARLSON: Well, that -- that depends.

KING: That's absurd.

CARLSON: If you read the letters that I get, I mean, it's a huge conspiracy run out of Vienna or Prague.


But -- no, they're just ordinary people. I think they tend to be -- on the whole, reporters are more amusing than most people. There may be some bias there. But you know, they're just generally people who want their questions answered.

I think it's a good and noble profession, and I don't think there's anything to apologize for, being part of it.

STEWART: Comb your hair, hippy! Comb your hair!


KING: Tammy Faye, do you have any problem with the media, as such, whatever the media is? MESSNER: Well, I have a problem with the media in the fact that I think they blow things way out of proportion, and they beat dead horses to death.

CARLSON: Like, let's say, if you had an air-conditioned dog house, they'd report that.

MESSNER: They have reported that about a million times, and it wasn't air-conditioned!


CARLSON: I know.

KING: It had a fan!

STEWART: Larry...

KING: Yes, Jon.

STEWART: I believe what the problem is, is this. It's the same with Congress. If you ask the majority of people in this country, "What do you think of Congress?" they go, "Ah, they're a bunch of shysters."

"What do you think of your congressman?" "Ah, he's good people."

That's the problem is that the aggregate effect of media is to erode the credibility of everyone, but on an individual basis they're all very talented. But when you're bombarded with 24 hours of it -- I mean, when I watch that -- any news coverage of any event, the aggregate effect of it is to make me think these guys have all gone insane, but on an individual basis, they're fine.

KING: My guy is good. Whoopi, what do you think? Whatever the media is.

GOLDBERG: You know, I don't know what the media is anymore. It's a bunch of talking heads on any given day...

KING: That's one aspect.

GOLDBERG: ... on any given subject.

KING: It's also a "New York Times." It's also a radio talk show host. It's a sport talk.

GOLDBERG: Yes -- well, but it's a -- it's a different kind of groove. I mean, you have your -- your morning talk guys, you have your afternoon talk guys, you have your people who are talking about the trailer trash around the corner. You've got these -- I don't know what the media is anymore. I sit in a square, Larry, you know?


I sit in a square and I tell joke, and that's what I do for a living.


KING: That's kind of weird to begin with.



KING: That was funny. San Angelo, Texas.

MESSNER: What concerns me is where do all the media come from.

CALLER: Yes, Larry.

KING: San Angelo, hello.


Go ahead. San Angelo.

CALLER: With all the lawsuits, frivolous or not, against the tobacco companies (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or companies, who does your panel think will be next? Is it going to be cutlery companies or fast-food companies?

KING: All right. Do you think there's a bias against tobacco companies and firearm companies? There's going to be a march this Sunday on guns. Whoopi, do you think there's a bias in the media against firearms and tobacco?

GOLDBERG: I can't tell. It depends on -- if you read The New York Times, you know, it's one thing. If you read "The Post," if you read the "L.A. Times" -- I think the next big lawsuit is coming out of feminine hygiene products.

KING: Really?


STEWART: Yes, yes.

GOLDBERG: Don't you think so, Jon?

KING: How would...


KING: How would you know?

GOLDBERG: He knows.

STEWART: I've got some people at Playtex I'd like to talk to, yes, to sue.

GOLDBERG: Yes. KING: Tucker, do you think we -- we -- we, collective we, we pick on tobacco and firearms, or do they do it to themselves?

CARLSON: Are you serious? Is there -- I mean, you can't even say the phrase "tobacco company" without sort of invoking evil. Big tobacco! Yes, of course.

KING: How do you defend them? I mean, what's the defense of tobacco?

CARLSON: Well, it depends how much time you have.

KING: Other than you may like it and you want cancer, smoke it. What's the defense?

CARLSON: Yes, but actually I think that is a valid defense. I mean, I don't know. There isn't a person in America who doesn't know the risks of smoking generally, and so people who smoke do so knowing what could happen. It's not clear why the tobacco companies need to be sued.

STEWART: And you think guns the same, that there's nobody that doesn't think that guns are dangerous or if you get shot with one, well...

CARLSON: Well...

STEWART: ... you knew bullets -- you knew bullets went fast.

CARLSON: Well, that's so obvious, I mean, it's a commentary on something that you're saying that sarcastically. Of course, bullets come out of guns. I think they hurt people. Right.

STEWART: No, no. I think -- I think the gun manufacturers are being blamed for a lot of people running headfirst into bullets, and I think it's wrong.


CARLSON: Well, look, you know, if I hold up a liquor store and I shoot the proprietor, is Smith & Wesson to blame? I mean, seriously! It's ludicrous!


KING: But if you didn't have a gun like in England, you wouldn't have shot the proprietor.

CARLSON: Well, I would have stabbed him, and then the callers question makes sense. I don't know.

KING: No, no, that's harder to do. He could run. He could run.

CARLSON: Does the knife company bear the responsibility? I mean, it's so crazy I can hardly... STEWART: But there are evil people everywhere. Look, you could have no violence in the media, you could run "Mary Poppins" 24 hours a day, and someone's going to watch that and go, "Must kill British nannies who sing."


You know what I mean? There are -- there are crazy people in the world. And what we're trying to do is make a Nerf world. We're trying to create a Nerf world where nobody can get hurt and no problems can occur, and it's never going to happen. I think what people are asking in this country for are common-sense safeguards on products that they think might be just explicitly dangerous. I think that's all that is.

KING: It might be a good idea if the -- the toy manufacturers didn't make a toy that killed your kid. That might be a good idea.

GOLDBERG: Yes, but you never know what a kid is going to swallow.

KING: Yes, you put warnings on it.

GOLDBERG: Well, you put warnings...

STEWART: But it's common sense.

GOLDBERG: ... and there's warnings on everything, you know. And I smoke. I am a smoker.

STEWART: Me, too. I smoke shooting guns. I smoke cigarettes that fire bullets.


CARLSON: I'm suing you.

KING: You're every American.

GOLDBERG: I remember that.

KING: We love you now.

Speaking of humor, here's another guy who was pretty funny a couple of weeks ago. Watch.


WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, the clock is running down on the Republicans in Congress, too. I feel for them, I do. They've only got seven more months to investigate me.


That's a lot of pressure. So little time, so many unanswered questions. (LAUGHTER)

For example, over the last few months I've lost 10 pounds. Where did they go?


Why haven't I produced them to the independent counsel?


How did some of them manage to wind up on Tim Russert?



KING: Jon Stewart, were you troubled by Clinton invading your territory, or was that pretty good stuff?

STEWART: It's upsetting to know that he could do what I do tomorrow, and I could never do what he does. That's a little upsetting to know.

He's good, man. He's got -- he's the best comedian I've ever seen as president.

KING: Tammy Faye, what did you think of it? Did you think it was -- do you think it hurt the dignity of the office for him to kid around?

MESSNER: No. No, I think we like to see our president as a human being and having fun. And I think -- I like him joking around.

KING: What did you think, Tucker?

CARLSON: Oh, I think we've seen our president as a human being having fun a lot.

MESSNER: Well...

CARLSON: It's not always appealing. I think he's great at this and I think it is appealing. Any time you get to watch Clinton and you don't cringe and it's fun to be around, I'm all for it.

KING: Whoopi?

GOLDBERG: I thought he was really funny. I thought he delivered the lines well. I'll start writing more for him.


MESSNER: Good, Whoopi!

KING: Yuma, Arizona, hello. CALLER: Yes, I was wanting to ask the panel what they think about Congress wanting to give themselves a pay raise again. I've been trying to get Social Security since '94. What a joke.

KING: Congress getting more money. Whoopi?

GOLDBERG: Well, you know, I agree with you, man. It is a huge joke. I don't get -- I don't get it. I don't know why they keep raising their...

KING: Well, they can't raise it for themselves. They can only raise it for the next Congress? But of course, if they get re- elected...

GOLDBERG: It's basically them. So...

CARLSON: Oh, please!

GOLDBERG: Who was that?

CARLSON: It was me, and I'll tell you, is because these guys, whatever you think of individual members of Congress, work so much harder than -- I mean, you ought to spend a week with them. I mean, they're never at home...

GOLDBERG: Hello, Tucker. You might want to -- darling, I spend a lot of time in Washington with those guys, and I know what they do. But as the gentleman said, he's been trying to get Social Security and disability, and there are things that we need to do before we start raising our pay.

CARLSON: You've got to be kidding...

GOLDBERG: And that -- no...

CARLSON: They're not raising -- it's not like they're making, you know, what "Hollywood Squares" types make. I mean, they only make...


GOLDBERG: Excuse me, Tucker. Did you really call me a "Hollywood Squares" type?

CARLSON: Really, these guys are not well-paid. It's absurd.

GOLDBERG: Did you just call me a type, you, you tie-wearing thing you?


Did you just -- did you just call me a type?


No, but my point is... CARLSON: No, I'm just saying...

GOLDBERG: My point is, you know, even though I make a lot of money, Tucker, I give a lot of money away. And I do believe...

CARLSON: Really. How much? How much do you give away?

GOLDBERG: I give away hundreds of thousands. I do -- yes, I know...

STEWART: That's not the issue, though.

GOLDBERG: No, it's not. But Tucker has a little question about people like me who make a lot of money.

CARLSON: No, you said gave away money...

STEWART: But Tucker's -- Tucker's a pain in the ass! You don't have to answer Tucker's questions.

GOLDBERG: Comb your hair! Comb your hair!

STEWART: Here's the problem, Tucker. You're a hippy!


CARLSON: I dare you.

KING: We'll be back with our -- we'll be back with our remaining moments of "guess who's coming to dinner," after this.


KING: We're back with our remaining moments with our panel. Don't forget you can see Jon Stewart at Carnegie Hall on June 8th. Just doing stand-up, Jon, or are you going have a little -- going to have any guests at all?

STEWART: Nope, just going to do stand-up. Just flat-out stand- up.

KING: What's it like working -- what's it like working with Mr. Dole?

STEWART: Oh, Dole is tremendous. Incredibly dry wit. Very funny man, and a wonderful -- excellent kisser. I mean, no!

KING: OK, Jon, hang tough.

STEWART: He's great, he's wonderful.

KING: Tammy Faye, how goes life for you?

MESSNER: Life is wonderful these days. I'm home being a grandmother and enjoying it very much, Larry.

KING: And looking forward to this documentary, which puts you right back into the limelight again.

MESSNER: Oh, my. Stranger things have happened, I guess.

KING: Tucker, do you feel you have been beaten up tonight? There were constant references to the tie, the ongoing onslaught from Miss Stewart -- and -- from Mr. Stewart.



CARLSON: You know what? Out there in the heartland, in the real America, people dig the tie. People dig the tie.

KING: They love you. They love you, Tucker.

CARLSON: They love bow ties. Oh, sure, in the heartland they do.

KING: Do you know when you were in Vietnam...

STEWART: You've never been to the heartland?

CARLSON: I've never been -- I've never been to the heartland.

STEWART: His hands -- that guys hands are softer than a...

GOLDBERG: Paul Simon wore a bow tie, too.

STEWART: His hands are softer than a baby's ass! He's never been to the heartland!

CARLSON: I fly over it a lot. A lot.


KING: But Jon, he's been in every news event in the past half century.

CARLSON: Exactly.

KING: Tucker is everywhere.

STEWART: I want to -- I want to address Tucker's point about they work 18 hours days inside the Beltway: 16 of those hours are fund raising and trying to get re-elected, and the other two hours are lunch.

CARLSON: Hey, that's...

STEWART: So don't tell me about how hard they're working.

CARLSON: That's hard, pal. You should watch it. I'm serious. It's not easy to shake hands and ask for money.

STEWART: Well, that's true. I know that. KING: And so, Whoopi, how long -- how long are you going to stay in "the square"? When are you going back to movies?

GOLDBERG: When something comes along that interests me.

KING: You used to make a movie a month?

GOLDBERG: I did, but I'm getting too old for that now, Larry.

MESSNER: No, no, you aren't, Whoopi.

GOLDBERG: Oh, yes, yes, I am. I have to...

MESSNER: We love you in movies.

GOLDBERG: Thank you, Tammy Faye. I just -- can I just call you Tammy Faye?


GOLDBERG: And Tucker, I'm bringing my camera to your house to your bathroom, because I want to see how fast you tie that tie...

CARLSON: You camp out with the rest of the paparazzi outside my house.


GOLDBERG: I do encourage you to ask your wives and friends and any woman in your life to have a mammogram. And if she does, send it to us at so we can try to save people's lives.

KING: Well, we can speak for the men, can't we, Jon and Tucker, and say take a PSA test to check for prostate cancer .

STEWART: No kidding, man.

CARLSON: Or get the full physical exam.

GOLDBERG: Bend over, shut up, and live.

KING: Get the full -- have you done that, Tucker?

CARLSON: Of course not.



CARLSON: ... for people. I mean, I would...

KING: That's right. You only tell -- you would never do that.

STEWART: I'm doing it right now!


KING: On that note...


... thank you all very much.


Set television history tonight. Tammy Faye Messner, Whoopi Goldberg, Jon Stewart, and Tucker Carlson.

Stay tuned for CNN "NEWSSTAND." They're going to discuss -- look at the mayor's race and the effect today of the separation of the mayor and his wife that might have on the New York mayor's race. That's up next, on CNN "NEWSSTAND."

Kathie Lee Gifford's our guest tomorrow night. Thanks for joining us and good night.



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