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Larry King Live

Giuliani Says No Go to New York Senate Bid

Aired May 19, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, facing a cancer battle and a broken marriage, Mayor Rudy Guiliani says no go to a New York Senate bid.

Joining us with reaction is New York Governor George Pataki; former Giuliani campaign manager and chief of staff Bruce Teitelbaum; in Washington, Mandy Grunwald, media consultant to candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton. And back in New York for our panel, journalist Carl Bernstein, writing a autobiography of Mrs. Clinton, and journalist and historian David Halberstam. His latest book is "Playing for Keeps."

That and others all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening, Don Johnson was supposed to be the guest tonight. He will be with us in the fall. I spoke with him earlier tonight, and of course we had to move him because of the breaking news story. The 100th presentation of "Nash Bridges" airs tonight on CBS, and we'll have Don with us in the fall.

We begin with Governor George Pataki, Republican of New York.

Were you surprised, Governor?

GOV. GOERGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Larry, I really was surprised. I understood that the mayor was going through a very difficult process, trying to decide what treatment for cancer, but I always thought and hoped that at the end of the day, he would decide to run. So it was a shock, but it's certainly understandable, and I think all of us recognize that the mayor is facing some very difficult decisions and some very difficult times, and in all likelihood, made the right decision.

KING: When did he tell you?

PATAKI: He called me this morning and let me know his thought processes. And I think we were all just very respectful of the fact that the mayor needed the time to make the decision and you know, we're all disappointed because he would have been a great candidate, he would have won, and he would have been a great senator.

But there is a silver lining, and that is the people of New York City will have him as mayor through an extra year, until next year, and he's been a great mayor, and I'm confident he'll continue to be one.

KING: Now what does this do to -- first, let's establish something, you are not going to run?

PATAKI: I'm not running, Larry.

KING: Period?

PATAKI: I could make news here tonight. but if there's any news to be made, it's that I'm running.

KING: Absolutely. Then the second question would be why? Why not?

PATAKI: Well, first of all, I love being governor. It's a tremendous job, and I'm very grateful to the people of this state who have given me the opportunity to really, I think, put in place policies that have made it a better state. But we're not done, there's a lot more left to do here in New York, and I want to continue the fight to continue to reduce taxes, improve the economic climate, clean the air and continue the job.

And I really, to be honest, I would have loved to have run against Mrs. Clinton. I think there is a very different philosophy of governing. I think she represents the philosophy that is very similar to the Mario Cuomo philosophy of the past that has been rejected in New York previously. And I would have loved to debate her, but ultimately, you have to not just want the contest, you have to want the job, and I prefer to be governor.

KING: But if offered the vice presidency with Governor Bush, you would accept?

PATAKI: Larry, now you're getting into hypotheticals, and quite simply I want to see Governor Bush become President Bush. I'm going to do everything I can to help him win that race.

KING: Whatever it takes, right?

PATAKI: Whatever it takes.

KING: OK, where does it leave the Senate race now in New York? Your convention is in 11 days. Are you changing the agenda at all?

PATAKI: No, I don't think so at all. We're fortunate in the Republican Party here that we have a number of strong candidates, and I think clearly the best would be Rick Lazio. He did the right thing eight months ago when he wanted to run for the Senate, and I asked him to step aside to see if the mayor was going to run, and he did.

He has an outstanding record in Washington, voting for the environment, for stronger families, for lower taxes, and he also is a New Yorker. He's one of us. He knows this state. He was born and raised in the state, and he shares the philosophy that is making New York a better place.

And I think if this contest comes down to philosophical debate between Mrs. Clinton's centralized left philosophy and Rick Lazio's philosophy that represents what we've succeeded with in New York and in New York City, we're going to see Rick Lazio as our next senator.

KING: Are you going to place his name in nomination?

PATAKI: Well, I don't know who will actually do the nomination, but I'm certainly going to do everything I can to help him be elected. I think he will be an outstanding candidate. It's an uphill fight. It's always an uphill fight for a Republican in New York state. And obviously, it's a late start, but Rick has the passion, he has the knowledge of the issues and the commitment to New York State that I think gives him an excellent chance to win this race.

KING: Do you give Congressman Peter King a shot?

PATAKI: Peter is a good guy. And the fact that he is interested I think is a positive thing, but it's late in the process. And I think what we have to do is quickly unite behind one candidate, and I'm hopeful that that candidate will be Rick Lazio.

KING: On some major issues, Giuliani and Clinton agreed -- on abortion, right to choose, on gun control, et cetera. Where does Lazio fit into this?

PATAKI: So does Lazio. These are not issues where there is a big philosophical divide. Rick Lazio is pro-choice. Mayor Giuliani is. I am. Hillary Clinton is. Rick Lazio voted for the Brady bill and to ban assault weapons, and we're going to fight here in New York for expanded gun control legislation that will make our streets safer.

But on the broader issue, on the question of taxes, on the question of Washington control, on the question of fighting for New York as opposed to having a national agenda and a national goal in mind, I think Rick Lazio is much more in touch with the New York people, with the New York voters, and his philosophy is more consistent with that of the New York voters.

KING: What, Governor, happens to the Giuliani money?

PATAKI: I don't know.

KING: He can't give it to another candidate, can he, by law?

PATAKI: You have to talk to the election lawyers about that. But I think let's let the mayor get through the next few days, let him make his decision as to what health treatment course he's going to choose, and the mayor told me specifically this morning, he's going to do everything he can to see that we're unified and win this race in the fall, and I'm confident he'll do that.

KING: This is a fair hypothetic, since it can be asked of any man. If you were faced with the dilemma of mayor is faced with with this cancer -- and we're going to have a doctor on at bottom of the hour -- do you know how you'd decide?

PATAKI: You know, Larry, I really don't have a clue. And I remember we've had a couple of tragedies in the state, like the TWA 800, where you sit down with the families and you try to understand what they're going through, but you really can't because it's such a unique occurrence. It's so personal that you can try to understand and try to sympathize, but it's personal and it's unique. And I've never had that experience. I hope I never do have the experience. But certainly, we all have to understand that the mayor has a difficult decision. It's truly a life or death decision, life processes he's going through right now, and we're confident that he will beat this cancer. He will continue to be a great mayor. He continues to have a very bright future in this state and in this country, and we just all wish him well.

KING: And finally, are you saying it's going to be a rough-and- tumble? We were expecting that with Giuliani-Clinton. Will we have that with Lazio-Clinton?

PATAKI: Well, you know, Larry, we're already seeing the Clinton spin doctors, and I think you may have one of them on here tonight attacking Lazio and trying to link him to people who have low poll numbers, and that's always been the Clinton philosophy. But I hope this is a campaign on the issues, because if it is, if we talk about tax cuts, cleaner air, support for families, less control from Washington, and who's going to fight for New York, then Rick Lazio is going to win this race.

KING: Governor, thanks very much for joining us.

PATAKI: Thank you, Larry. Good being on with you.

KING: Always good seeing you, Governor George Pataki.

When we come back, we'll spend some moments with Bruce Teitelbaum, the former chief of staff for Rudy Guiliani and the former campaign manager of what was a campaign. A few minutes with him and then few minutes with Mandy Grunwald, the media consultant for Hillary Clinton, and then our panel will assemble.


Don't go away.


GOV. RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK CITY: I've decided that what I should do is to put my health first, and that I should devote -- should devote the focus and attention that I should to running -- to being able to figure out the best treatment and not running for office. This is not the right time for me to run for office. If it were six months ago, or it were a year from now or the timing were a little different, maybe it would be different, but it isn't different, and that's the way life is.



KING: We're going to spend a couple moments with each of the top campaign aides. We begin with Bruce Teitelbaum. It's weird to say former here, Bruce, former chief of staff, former campaign manager. What are you going to do?

BRUCE TEITELBAUM, FMR. GIULIANI CHIEF OF STAFF: I'm going to go away for a few days, Larry, take it easy, and then I'm going to come back and help the mayor.

KING: Stay with the mayor?

TEITELBAUM: Well, I'm going to help him right now. There are things we need to do to wind down the campaign. And whatever I can do to help Rudy Guiliani, I'll do.

KING: How close is he to making this radiation surgery decision?

TEITELBAUM: Well, I'm going to let him discuss that, Larry. It's a tough decision. He's been grappling with it for weeks now. But I'm going to let him make that decision, and obviously, he'll tell the public when he's ready to do that.

KING: The governor seems to say it's Lazio is definite. Do you agree?

TEITELBAUM: Well, it certainly looks like Congressman Lazio is going to be the nominee, but that's up to the Republican Party. What I will say is that Mayor Giuliani was very clear with the governor today. He spoke to Congressman Lazio, and said that he will fully support the Republican nominee and do whatever he can to make sure that the Republican Party is able to capture the Senate seat, and he'll do his best, and whatever help we can be in that process we will be.

KING: As an overview, Bruce, and I know you're a partisan here, but if you could take a step back, what does this do to the race against Mrs. Clinton?

TEITELBAUM: Well, Mrs. Clinton has a head start, there's no question about that, but she's eminently beatable. Mrs. Clinton has not been able to break 44 to 45 percent. Congressman Lazio, certainly a superb congressman, has a good record. We have a great governor in Governor Pataki, a great state chairman in Bill Powers and a great majority leader in Joe Bruno. There's a great team in the party house in New York, and with Mayor Giuliani's help, Mrs. Clinton can be beaten.

KING: There is always perspective in second-guessing after something like this. Some are saying that there were a lot of party pushing Rudy not to run. Is that true?

TEITELBAUM: That's absolutely not true. Governor Pataki could not have been more supportive and the leadership of the party here in New York State and across the country. Senator Lott, and Senator McConnell and the Republicans all around the country were 100 percent behind Rudy Guiliani. If he could have made this race, Larry, and stayed in it, he would have beaten Mrs. Clinton. He would have made a superb candidate. Unfortunately, he was unable to do that. So now we'll get behind the Republican nominee. We'll support him, and we'll move forward.

KING: How is he dealing with the whole marriage issue? I know you know him so well, and we know him pretty well. He seems to -- today was extraordinary, wasn't it, the way he handled that press conference?

TEITELBAUM: You know, the last couple of weeks have been extraordinary. But working for Rudy Guiliani is never boring. As far as his personal life goes, Larry, I'll leave that to him. Those are things that he needs to discuss, and I'm not going to get into that.

KING: The suggestion he didn't really want to be a senator -- buy any of that?

TEITELBAUM: Well, that's not true. Larry, you know Rudy Guiliani. And the folks know who know Rudy know that when he sets his mind to something, he goes at it 100 percent. He wanted to be senator. He said this over and over again, that if he could have made this race, he would have done so. But his health is the most important thing, and we all support him very, very much. We're going to stand with him. Whatever he wants to do, he knows he's got very good friends that are going to stand by him, and with him, and we'll do whatever he needs to get done in the next couple of months and in the future, Larry.

KING: Thanks, Bruce. Always good seeing you.

TEITELBAUM: My pleasure.

KING: Bruce Teitelbaum. Now joining us from Washington, Mandy Grunwald, the very well known name in American political circles and media consultant for Hillary Rodham Clinton.

What's the impact on your candidate?

MANDY GRUNWALD, HILLARY CLINTON MEDIA CONSULTANT: I don't think we know yet. I don't we know exactly who the opponent is going to be.

KING: Well, let's assume it's Lazio. I mean, Pataki has the power in the state, and he says it's going to be Lazio. Unless King comes along with an upset here it's going to be Lazio.

GRUNWALD: I think we've just learned not to make too many predictions in this race, Larry. That's all. For us, Hillary is going to stay focused on the same issues that she's focused on since the start of the campaign. She's going to talk about education and the shape of our schools. She's going to talk about health care. She's going to talk about the economy, particularly upstate, where so many people have been left behind.

And you know, there are going to be some clear contrasts whoever the Republican is, and certainly if it's Mr. Lazio, there is some very strong contrasts, especially on those issues.

KING: Does this take away the national impact of the campaign of these two strong personalities, that there important be the focus of the national media on the debates and everything, or do you think it will stay focused?

GRUNWALD: You know, you'd be a better judge how the national media is going to judge this than I am. But I think that in terms of national issues, there are a lot of national issues that will come to the fore, because if it's Lazio, he has a national voting record on those issues in Congress. So those issues are going to be there. There may be a stature gap if it's someone like Lazio.

KING: A what gap?

GRUNWALD: A stature gap, that one candidate has that kind of national prominence and one is less well known. John McCain said a couple weeks ago if Hillary Clinton was elected to the Senate, she'd be a star the day she walked in the door, and I think that feeling was certainly there about Rudy Guiliani, too. He would have had a major celebrity to him if he was elected. It will be different with Lazio. He's not known, and I think New Yorkers are going to have to judge if they want somebody who has more stature, more cache, and, therefore, could do more for the state.

KING: Do you expect Mr. Lazio to be well funded?

GRUNWALD: Absolutely. I think Republicans have made it very clear that -- I think there was one in the paper yesterday saying that they would give money to Mickey Mouse if he was running against Hillary Clinton, and I think most of the money that Rudy Guiliani raised was from people who do not like her. I don't know what they are scared of. Better schools? better health care? I'm not sure. But they don't like her, and they will fund anyone to beat her.

KING: Now I have to ask you to take a step back, as we have Mr. Teitelbaum. As a media expert, how well did the mayor handle all of this?

GRUNWALD: Well you know, this is a tough time, and I think he's handled some of it well, some of it not so well. You know, when a guy is sick, I take back, you know, any of my criticism. I -- he's got cancer to deal with. That's tough. He's got a lot of different issues to deal with. I leave my criticism aside, if you don't mind.

KING: Babe Ruth once said in a historic statement "I'd rather be lucky than good." Is your candidate lucky today?

GRUNWALD: I don't know, I don't think we know yet. I'll tell you, she doesn't leave a lot to luck. She is a hard worker. She has been to 62 counties of New York, and there are only 62 counties in New York. She's working her heart out to win this seat, and to earn the trust of New Yorkers. I don't think she's leaving anything to luck. That's not her way. She is a hard worker, and she will do everything she can to win the support of New Yorkers.

KING: Thanks, Mandy. Always good seeing you. We'll be seeing a lot of you.

GRUNWALD: Pleasure.

KING: Mandy Grunwald.

When we come back, Congressman Charles Rangel, Carl Bernstein, David Halberstam and Ed Rollins will discuss this amazing day in American politics. At the bottom of the hour, Dr. Jean DeKernion, who's chairman of the department of urology at UCLA will join us to discuss about the mayor's disease.

Right back with the panel after this.


GIULIANI: I don't feel that if I take on the commitment to run, that I'm -- that I'll have the kind of confidence that I should have, that I'd be the candidate that I should be. I don't know that I'd be able to campaign the way I should. I don't know that I'd be able to concentrate on it the way that I should, and I don't know completely whether in August or September that I'd be able to continue. Sometimes I think yes, and sometimes I think no. And it isn't right to take on that commitment if you don't feel a strong sense of certitude that you can complete it.



KING: Let's welcome our panel. They're all in New York, which is appropriate. Congressman Charles Rangel, Democrat of New York. He was the first one to suggest that Hillary run for this office. He also suggested that Lazio run on this program when Lazio was here. Also in New York is Carl Bernstein. He's working on a biography of Hillary Clinton, executive vice president and executive editor of and a contributing editor of "Vanity Fair." The famed David Halberstam is with us, the award-winning journalist, historian. His latest book: "Playing for Keeps." And the well-known Republican strategist Ed Rollins joins us as well.

A couple of months ago, long before the cancer diagnosis, Rick Lazio was on this program. He's been on quite a few times. I asked him then about the possibility of running for mayor.



KING: You think there's a chance he might not run, Rick?

REP. RICK LAZIO (R), NEW YORK: I do think there's a chance, although only he knows. He's a fairly mercurial man, and I think we will not know exactly what his intention is on this race until he makes a formal commitment, and I don't know when that will be.

I only know this, Larry, that if he waits after February, middle of February or so, and decides not to get into the race for whatever reason, he will have made it impossible for any other Republican, in my mind, to actually win this race.


KING: Well, there we have it, it's past February, he says he'll have made it impossible, but he's going to make the run.

Charlie, is it impossible for Lazio to win this?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: No, I don't think it's impossible. I really don't know -- and you have pundits around that might -- how much money it would take in the short period of time for Lazio to be known. He is a formidable candidate, he's a charming guy and he's a good legislator, but nobody knows him. And if he could really get instant recognition and actually debate on national and international issues, it would be a contest.

KING: Carl Bernstein, you've been around the horn a time or two. What do you make? He said he'd have no chance in February. But times are different. What do you think?

CARL BERNSTEIN, VOTER.COM: I think as has been from the beginning of this race, anybody that would call it at this point is very silly. Mrs. Clinton was finally feeling good about where this campaign was. She was starting to feel that Giuliani was on the ropes, that his negatives were going up. That he was acting in a way that was going to really hurt his candidacy. Now there's a whole new game plan that is basically unknown. You never want to start over in the middle of a campaign. I think Ed Rollins will tell you that. Nobody knows where this is going to go. Lazio has a lot of catching up to do. He will have no trouble getting funded, as Mandy Grunwald had said, by the Hillary Clinton, by the Hillary Clinton haters across America, and at the same time, she is a very formidable candidate, and her history is the more that voters see of Hillary Clinton, the more they like her.

KING: David Halberstam, what do you think? Can Lazio win this?

DAVID HALBERSTAM, AUTHOR, "PLAYING FOR KEEPS": I think he has a chance. I mean, he has a beginning, it's whole new equation, nobody really knows. He's going to get a lot of exposure, he'll be on all the Sunday talk shows. He has fewer negatives. He brings less baggage in some way than Giuliani, and he has less laziness in some ways than she has. The question is also how good a candidate he's going to be. I mean, Mrs. Clinton is smart. She is very, very well tuned on the issues and very focused, and there's a perception, even with people who are not necessarily for her, that she in fact would be an effective senator. I mean, for all the negatives, there is a sense that this is a primetime player, and he has not yet created that incarnation.

KING: Ed Rollins, if you were the strategist for Mr. Lazio, and you know that Lazio agrees with her on abortion, he agrees with her on gun control, there are issues separated on other area, would you take this on or? Does he have a chance?

ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: He has a great chance. And I think, to a certain extent, he has a better chance than he may have thought he had in February, and he has a better chance than if he would have had to go through a very tough primary. You heard the governor here a few moments ago say that for all practical purposes, he's going to be coronated by the Republican Party. And I promise you one thing about instant recognition, is name ID comes very quickly. And everybody in New York in the next two or three weeks is going to know who Rick Lazio is, know everything about him, and know who he is and where he's from.

I think to a certain extent -- and I have great respect for Rudy Guiliani, and I know he went through a very tough decision. If I was a strategist today and I a choice between the two campaigns, I would much rather have a candidate who's not distracted and who's hungry, like Rick Lazio, who knows the federal issue and knows what it is. And I don't buy the stature gap. There was stature gap with the governor of Arkansas going against the president of the United States a few years ago, and the governor from Arkansas won.

So the reality is Rudy Guiliani with his problems the last three or four weeks would have been a terribly distracted candidate. He still may have won, but he would have had his mind on a lot of other things. Rick Lazio wants this, and wants it bad, and he's hungry. And I think he's going to be a new face. Equally as important, Republicans from one end of this country to another, let alone this state, are going to put all the money in here that's necessary to win this race. So I think it's going to be a very credible campaign.

KING: There's the thoughts of each. We'll be back with more. They'll be our panel the rest of the way. We will take time at the bottom of the hour with Dr. Jean DeKernion of UCLA to discuss prostate cancer and then go back to the panel.

We'll be back with the guys right after this.


GIULIANI: When I was first told that I had cancer, I thought this was going to be a much easier decision. I thought all of it was going to be easier. I thought the decision about treatment would be made like I've made lots of other decisions in my life. Some of them real tough, none like this. And I thought the decision about running would be sort of a calculation that you would make about how tired you would be or not be, and I found that it's much, much more difficult than that.



KING: Carl Bernstein, Congressman Lazio voted for impeachment. Will that matter in this race?

BERNSTEIN: It will. It's a factor. It's a national question. The people of the country were against the impeachment proceedings. I think the real thing is that Hillary Clinton is going to -- excuse me, is going to try and paint the difference between the two of them on issues, and try and paint Lazio into a right-wing corner, into a Newt Gingrich Republican. They're already looking at every bit of his record, going all the way back to when he was a prosecutor, and they're going to find some real differences. The other thing is that in the city of New York, this withdrawal of Rudy Guiliani means that she'll win the city by a bigger margin probably.

KING: David, do you think it will matter that he was a big supporter of the Contract with America?

HALBERSTAM: I think that will hang in there. I don't think the impeachment is going to be a great problem, because I think the Clinton people would be very well to stay away from that, to stay away from the messiness, some of which they inflicted on the country, by the way. They are not innocent players in all this, and I think that's one of the burdens that she brings in.

The Contract with America is certainly out there, but she has to be very careful if she goes -- they were talking already they're going to paint him with Gingrich. She has to be careful about not being too strident and being too aggressive, because that's one of the shadows that she has on her.

KING: Ed, would they be smart to push him to the right, tactically smart, in a state like New York, push him righter than he is.

ROLLINS: You can certainly try, but they're not going to be very successful. I mean, first of all, he's pro-choice, and he's certainly for some kind of gun limits, and certainly that's out of the mainstream, the Republican Party. And so I think to a certain extent, they'll have a harder time doing that.

This is a game about contrasts, though, and clearly, there is going to be a contrasts on the records, which will make for an interesting race. But I think the more important part of this is he's now the underdog. She is -- here's a person who's never run for office himself. It's a big difference being a first lady and running in a campaign that way. She's out front, all of a sudden, she's the front-runner, she's the one that's going to have all of the exposure to the media, what have you. His expectation level is going to be much lower for the next couple of months, and that's going to give him time to put together a very significant campaign organization.

KING: Well said. We'll talk with the doctor and then get the expertise of Congressman Charles Rangel, who's in the wars, as we call them, but we'll talk with our doctor first, and we'll do that right after this.

Don't go away.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK SENATE CANDIDATE: You know, I am not going to talk about the politics of the race or the campaign. There will be plenty of time to talk about the issues and compare and contrast positions between me and anyone in the race. I think, today, we all ought to just wish the mayor our very best and let him know that the people of the city are, you know, all behind him in this very difficult decision that he's made, and that we all wish him a full and speedy recovery.



KING: We're going to interrupt our panel and bring along here in Los Angeles Dr. Jean DeKernion. He is the famed chairman of the department of urology at UCLA. What's the decision the mayor faces?

DR. JEAN DEKERNION, CHMN., UCLA DEPT. OF UROLOGY: Well, Larry, he has a choice of various treatments, breaks down to surgery or different forms of radiotherapy.

KING: At his age, 56, right, do you lean towards surgery generally in that area, all things being equal?

DEKERNION: All things being equal, in someone his age, you would go toward surgery.

KING: Because?

DEKERNION: Because he has a long life expectancy. In his age and health, he is expected to live another 25 years or so. And in that context, the safest thing to do is to remove the prostate completely, provided of course, again, that that is appropriate for whatever his particular tumor is, and I don't know that.

KING: That's the least riskiest in terms of all these?

DEKERNION: It's the least risky in terms of a cancer. I think that's safe to say.

KING: Now the chances are only one in six you're going to die of prostate cancer, is that correct?

DEKERNION: That's correct.

KING: So the odds are always with you?

DEKERNION: The odds are indeed with him. And again, without knowing any details, most people be can be cured of prostate cancer.

KING: Can?

DEKERNION: They can.

KING: If you choose radiation and it doesn't work, can you then do surgery?

DEKERNION: Generally, no.

KING: Why?

DEKERNION: Because of the scar tissue that's produced by the radiation therapy. You can do it, but the side effects and the consequences are quite severe, and that's why for very young people, many times physicians and patients would lean toward the surgery.

KING: Does surgery end sexual potency?

DEKERNION: No, it doesn't have to at all. In most patients in that age group with the appropriate surgery, they can retain their sexual function.

KING: That's the number-one thing a man things about when he's younger, right, this living and being able to have a full life?

DEKERNION: Yes, it is. Quality of life, of course, is important, and we talk about the results of the treatment and terms of the cancer. But in terms of quality of life, that's also an extremely important issue.

KING: You would toss out watchful waiting in his case, because of his age?

DEKERNION: I would. Now I must hasten to say that not everyone would agree, and again, I don't know any of the details at all about his particular problem. There are times when watchful waiting would be quite risky. There are other times when the risk wouldn't be so great. But certainly in someone 56, with a life expectancy like that, prostate cancer does not go away. It will spread.

KING: If you stay with it long enough, it will spread. The question is, when it will spread?

DEKERNION: When will it spread?

KING: If it spreads, are you done?

DEKERNION: If it spreads, no. Very often, hormones can control it for another two, five years-plus. So it isn't necessarily the end. No, you can use hormones, which again, will often be very helpful.

KING: We've discussed watchful waiting, radiation surgery. What are other options?

DEKERNION: Well, there is other options. There is treatment with cryo, sort of freezing the prostate, which is -- some people advocate.

KING: Do you?

DEKERNION: Not particularly, no. I think it's safer to remove the prostate.

KING: And there's another one they shoot pellets or something?

DEKERNION: That's another form of radiotherapy. There are two forms. One is external radiation therapy, which is the standard one, and the other one is putting the radioactive implants into the prostate.

KING: Doctor, a couple of other things, what does the doctor say to the patient here? What do you say in a situation like this, a man 56 years old, he has prostate cancer, what do you say? Do you give him all these options you've just us?

DEKERNION: You have to. You really must give him all of the options.

KING: Do you make a suggestion, or not?


KING: You would?

DEKERNION: I definitely would, and I would give him all the options, and I would encourage him to talk with a radiation oncologist if he was considering seed implant therapy, radioactive seeds, or other kinds of radiation, to talk with him and get a feel for what it means and what the impact on their quality of life would be.

KING: When we read, doctor, that someone dies of prostate cancer, what killed them?

DEKERNION: Tumor generally metastasizes to the bone, and when that happens, they lose -- they have nutritional loss, they are subject to fractures of the bone, generally spread then to liver and lymph glands, to lungs can occur later, but it's generally a form of terminal cancer, which is malnutrition.

KING: Is surgery pretty much the most used option today in people in the '50s?

DEKERNION: Without knowing the statistic off the top of my head, I'd say...


DEKERNION: In this country and certainly in UCLA, the answer is yes.

KING: Thank you, doctor.

DEKERNION: You're welcome.

Appreciate you coming over. Dr. Jean DeKernion, chairman of department of Urology, UCLA.

We'll reintroduce and get back to our panel right after this.


GIULIANI: I also believe that, you know, things happen in life for reasons that sometimes you only figure out afterwards, and there is something good that comes out of this. A lot of good things come out of it. I think I understand myself a lot better. I think I understand what's important to me better. Maybe I'm not completely there yet. I would be foolish to think that I was in a few weeks, but I think I'm headed in that direction. (END VIDEO CLIP)


KING: Welcome back.

We continue our discussion of Rudy Guiliani's dramatic decision not to run for the Senate against Hillary Clinton.

Still with us from New York, Congressman Charles Rangel, Democrat of New York; journalist, author and executive editor of, Carl Bernstein; the noted journalist and historian David Halberstam; and the famed Republican strategist Ed Rollins.

Congressman Rangel, what kind of candidate will your friend Mr. Lazio be?

RANGEL: He'll be a good candidate, but we will have to remind people who he will be voting for as leader of the Senate, which will be Trent Lott; who he will be supporting, which will be Senator Helms; who did he vote for when he voted for Gingrich and the whole legislative agenda that has been aborted by the Republican majority in the House of Representatives. Rick has been a part of it.

So he's a terrific personality, but I think this is going to be on the legislative record. I think this is going to be a far more sophisticated campaign than the one we would have had with Rudy Guiliani. That would have been the battle of personalities.

KING: This will be issue-oriented?

RANGEL: Yes, definitely.

KING: The debates will be lively, but informative?

RANGEL: No question about it, and she is such an outstanding person when it comes to international affairs and national issues -- health, education, patients' bill of rights, affordable drugs -- and Rick knows all of the issues. So you know, the mayor didn't have a clue as to what was going on in Washington or the Senate, but he didn't have to because he was Mayor Giuliani. But this one is going to be a far more informative and more sophisticated campaign.

KING: Carl, we know Hillary in many modes, but don't know her as a debater, and you're writing a book on her. What do you guess she'll do?

BERNSTEIN: She'll do very well in debates. She's somebody who prepares for almost everything she does extensively.

I think Congressman Rangel is on to something very interesting here. And that is with Giuliani in the race, this was about two people carrying a lot of negative baggage, and it was very much a personal struggle of two people. We now have a race that is going to be increasingly partisan, it is going to be increasingly about the two parties, which the race between Giuliani and Mrs. Clinton was not. I think that's going to change the whole dynamic of this.

The other thing about the dynamic of this is that there now is a whole almost factor of humility in the whole process. This race has had such unexpected developments, that I think probably everybody involved -- and you could see it today -- feels a bit humbled, and I think there's a dynamic out there that everybody is very wary of. Nobody knows quite how to play this event, and we really know very little where it stands right now.

KING: Now, David Halberstam, from a media standpoint, is this going to be widely covered by the CNNs, and the CBSs as with Giuliani?

HALBERSTAM: No, no, no, because the previous race, Carl's right, this is more about issues than ideology. The previous race was about star factor and celebrity, and that brought in all the feather merchants. And I think one of the good things about what Giuliani has done is we're not going to have to go through a brutal personal thing with all the worst kind of tabloid coverage. That's been reduced. We've had enough of that, and it's very ugly, and I think for the sake of Giuliani's own family, I'm glad it's gone.

No, I think this is a much more serious race, and everybody's going to be redefining himself and herself in it.

KING: And therefore, less media attention -- is that a slap at us, in a sense? This is going to be more serious, because we're less interested?

HALBERSTAM: Well, I think the media attention, the kind you referred to, is not serious media, it's star stuff, it's tabloid, it's celebrity, it's not about what issues are. So I'm delighted, to some degree, that that factor has been reduced.

KING: Ed Rollins, would you agree, this will be an issue- oriented race?

ROLLINS: This should be an issue-oriented race. Where I take on my good friend Charlie Rangel is we've often tried to run congressional races saying Charlie Rangel will be chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, and Rudy has no effect if the Democrats take back the Congress.

This really is about -- will be about personalities to a certain extent, and who do you think really shares your values, and who do you want represent you in New York? The still presidential race is a backdrop, and I think the reality is that this race will still have media attention because of Hillary, but I think the reality is it now fits more into the package of another Senate race and the battle for the House of Representatives, the battle to hold a Senate and a presidency certainly are going to go the forefront at this point in time.

KING: And you state that Lazio is definitely the underdog, and that may be beneficial to him at this point?

ROLLINS: There's no question it's beneficial to him. I think this is a guy who's basically come up through the ropes, he has been a state legislator, he's been assistant attorney, he understands Long Island, which is very, very important to New York State. He doesn't have the hot personality that Rudy has or the negatives, and I think to a certain extent, it's going to be harder to paint him with the Newt Gingrich brush. I think you're going to find him exceeding expectations, which is always very important.

KING: We'll include your phone calls as we continue with our panel on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Tomorrow night on LARRY KING WEEKEND, we're going to repeat our interview with Prince. He's now back to being called Prince.

And Monday night Kathie Lee Gifford will host this program. Her guests will include Joan Rivers and Diane Sawyer.

We'll be right back.


LAZIO: I'm looking forward to this. This has been my lifelong home. It's been a state I have represented in the United States House of Representatives for eight years. I am looking forward to this race with enthusiasm, and I will have much to say about that over the next couple of days.

Thank you very much.



KING: Let's go to some calls for our panel.

We go to Austin, Texas -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, Larry, I was wondering what your panel thought would be -- what the future holds for Rudy Guiliani, you know, next five years or so?

KING: Congressman Rangel, what do you think?

RANGEL: It's hard to say. With his domestic problems and this illness, we all pray for a swift recovery. I think he's a feisty opponent, and I quite frankly think the Clinton campaign loses a lot when they lose Giuliani, in terms of having a real first-rate political fight. But where he goes from here I think his health has a lot to do with it.

KING: Assuming everything turns out OK, Carl, is he ticketed for Albany?

BERNSTEIN: I think that's where he wants to go. I think nobody has mentioned something for those of us who live here. I think we get a much better mayor as a result of this. I think the kind of change that has come over Rudy Giuliani as a result of this, the things he has said, in terms of reaching out to people that he has spurned before. I think there is going to be a very different climate of governance in New York, and I think that might affect how well he does if he does seek the governorship.

The other thing we haven't mentioned is, is that the most formidable candidate was here in this room with us earlier, and that's Governor Pataki. He would have run the strongest race against Mrs. Clinton.

KING: Do you agree, David, that Pataki might have been favored against Hillary?

HALBERSTAM: He seems to have an ability to get along with a vast assortment of people, not to -- I mean, in a way that Mrs. Clinton and Giuliani both polarize people. He seems to have a very low polarizing index, to have a very ease that worked very well with him against Cuomo and seems to continue. He seems to be very good at not creating a political heat and seems to fit a contemporary mood.

KING: Ed, do you think in saying he's not going to run. Obviously, he's not going to run, that he feels he's in the vice presidential derby, and had and had he announced for the Senate he's out of that.

ROLLINS: No, I think being perfectly honest, if I was his adviser, which I'm not, I'd tell him to go knock Hillary out of the box, and he comes out of this thing a big, big winner, and certainly if George W. doesn't win this thing, he'd be front and center to be the nominee five years from now.

I think the reality, going back to the question on Rudy Giuliani, Rudy is going to -- there's two things you can't take away from that are so valuable to a politician: one is he's going to have been an excellent mayor, and I think he is going to go out of office with a lot more sentiment than he might have been if he would have run this race, and even if he'd won.

And second, he's going to have name ID, which are very valuable assets. So I think he's a young man, he'll be 58 when his term is up. Hopefully, he'll be healthy. He'll have his marital situation behind him. If the governor chooses to go in the Bush administration if Bush wins or whatever happens, Rudy Giuliani will be a Republican stalwart in the future in the state.

KING: Rogue River, Oregon -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, I just would like to ask anybody on the panel, why does everyone shy totally away from the Giuliani marital affairs, when every news person jumped on everything about President and Mrs. Clinton and their marital affairs. What makes the difference? Can you tell me?

KING: Carl, do you -- Carl, do you think Rudy got a free ride here?

BERNSTEIN: Yes, I do. I think the questioner raises a really interesting point, and that is that the New York press corps was intimidated by Mayor Giuliani. He was very successful in wreaking a kind of retribution in terms of reporters that crossed him, and they gave him a pass. And particularly the New York tabloids that are hell on everybody else.

Now, do I think, myself, that it's a real story? No, I would like to see our journalism move away from the politics -- from covering politicians' personal lives. But did he get a real pass from a rabid press corps here? Absolutely.

KING: We'll take a break, come back, get the final thoughts of our panel.


Don't go away.


GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I told Rudy that I understood it was a very difficult decision for him to make, that -- and our prayers were with him, that I understood, that -- that he is my friend, whether he's the candidate or not for the United States Senate.

I reminded him he needs to be proud of the job he has done as the mayor of New York City. He's got an excellent record as the mayor. And now that our party -- it's time for our party to move on. I'm confident that the New York Republican Party will nominate a New Yorker who will be able to win the United States Senate race next fall.



KING: David Halberstam, since every middle-aged man in America is discussing this tonight, it's a fair hypothetic, what would you do with this dilemma, were it you?

HALBERSTAM: You mean the cancer...

KING: Diagnose -- yes, right, the Giuliani dilemma.

HALBERSTAM: The first thing you think about is, you know, your own health, and you listen to the doctors and you do what the doctors advise in concert with your family. That's the natural, normal thing. I think there's a lot of sympathy for him. He's been a good mayor of New York. He's had a bad last year, I think. There's been a stridency and an authoritarianism, and I think a lot of sympathy. New York is a demonstrably better place to live because of him. And I think all of us who are on this panel, in the zone for a particular illness like this, we're all much more tuned to it than we were 10 years ago...

KING: Sure. HALBERSTAM: ... because there are so many striking examples that it doesn't know boundaries anymore.

KING: Ed Rollins, you think about it?

ROLLINS: Well, I think about it because, like Rudy Giuliani, my father's had it. He had it at a much older age, and he's totally cured and he's still 83 going strong. But it's in every man's head, and I think to a certain extent it's the worst nightmare to wake up and all of a sudden have your doctor make a call and saying, here are your treatments. None of those treatments that the doctor laid out earlier sounded very good to me at 56 or 75.

So I think the reality is the easy decision Rudy had to make was whether he wanted to run for the Senate or not. The harder decisions he has to make is how does he deal with his children and his ex-wife and how does he basically deal with his health.

KING: Very well said. Charlie Rangel, how would you deal with it?

RANGEL: It's a nightmare for me. As most of you know, black males are more prone and susceptible...

KING: Right.

RANGEL: ... to prostate cancer. And I'd fall apart. The domestic thing, I don't know what I'd do after 40 years of marriage and have kids. And so in a sense no matter what kind of political opponent that Giuliani has been, quite frankly, I'm glad that he has decided to take a deep breath and take care of his health problems. And that might, in the long run, allow him a better chance to take care of his domestic problems.

KING: And, Carl, what would do you?

BERNSTEIN: I think this is a humbling experience for everybody around it, including the people covering it.

KING: Sure.

BERNSTEIN: It makes you really aware of your mortality. And I think Mayor Giuliani was absolutely eloquent today about looking at what's important in life. And it's clear just watching him that he has a different set of values than he had three week ago.

KING: David Halberstam, that was extraordinary today, wasn't it?

HALBERSTAM: I thought he did it with grace. You know, he's always been interesting because he's smart, he's talented, he's hard working. And then sometimes, as in the last year in the Dorismond thing, he's just been so hard and so unbending. And you wonder, where is that nobler part of him, because there's all those qualities you think are there, and he's been so good on -- for a couple of years. And this has not been a good year for him. Beyond the candidacy, he's been more strident and less humane up until -- this is a reincarnation and a welcomed one.

KING: Thank you all very much. Charlie Rangel, Carl Bernstein, David Halberstam, Ed Rollins and we thank the doctor and our guests earlier, including Governor Pataki.

Tomorrow night, we'll repeat our interview with Prince.

Kathie Lee Gifford hosts the program Monday. Her guests include Diane Sawyer.

Stay tuned for CNN "NEWSSTAND."

I'm Larry King. Thanks for joining us. Have a great weekend and good night.



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