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Ray Lewis Takes the Stand in Murder TrialAired June 6, 2000 - 1:39 p.m. ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU WATERS, CNN ANCHOR: Our hour's top story is the prosecution testimony this morning of the football star, who until yesterday was himself on trial for double murder. Baltimore Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis took the witness stand today against his former co-defendants, Joseph Sweeting and Reginald Oakley. Lewis blamed Oakley for starting the fight that ended with two men stabbed to death outside an Atlanta nightclub back in January, but he said even Oakley was provoked into violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAY LEWIS, PROSECUTION WITNESS: We walked up to the guy. That's when the guy hit him in the head with the bottle.
PAUL HOWARD, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: And did you see the bottle?
HOWARD: What kind of bottle was it?
LEWIS: Champagne bottle.
HOWARD: Did you see where he hit him?
LEWIS: I saw him hit over the head?
HOWARD: What happened once he was hit over the head?
LEWIS: Once he hit over the head, in all honesty, all hell broke loose from that point.
HOWARD: And what do you mean by that?
LEWIS: It was -- from that point it was chaos. When he hit him in the head, them two just went into a dramatic fashion of fighting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATERS: Lewis said, after the fight was over, defendant Sweeting told him, he'd thrown punches with a knife in his hand. Murder charges against Lewis were dropped after he pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of obstructing of justice.
The jury is back in the room, the judge, the attorneys, and Ray Lewis is back on the stand for cross-examination. Let's listen.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
STEVE SADOW, ATTY. FOR JOSEPH SWEETING: ... anything besides defend himself?
SADOW: At no time did you see Joseph, Mr. Sweeting, have any physical contact whatsoever with Mr. Baker, correct?
SADOW: We talked a little bit, other witnesses have talked about it, I think you mentioned it, there were some mink coats that were present on this particular occasion; right?
SADOW: But Joseph Sweeting had no mink coat, no mink jacket, no mink at any time; right?
SADOW: I got two other areas to cover briefly and I'll be finished.
After the fighting ended, if I understood correctly, everybody ran back to the limo, except you and Jessica, who were still at the limo.
SADOW: And everybody immediately got into the limo; right?
SADOW: All through the right rear passenger door; correct?
SADOW: So all the people that have been identified as having been in the limo that evening, all of them had to go by the rear right passenger door to get in; right?
SADOW: And I'm assuming that people were moving and getting in, it was just about that time, I think the engine to the vehicle turned on, and it may have even actually started moving a little bit and the gun shots occurred.
SADOW: So we are talking about just a few seconds going by, right?
SADOW: How fast do you run the 40?
SADOW: Pretty quick?
SADOW: Even you, at your fastest speed of all time, wouldn't have has enough time to go from the location where the decedents were to a car in a parking lot in back the time period that those gun shots were fired; right?
LEWIS: Probably not.
SADOW: It happened so fast that it almost appeared that the gun was present on the scene at the time it was used, wasn't it?
LEWIS: It could have been.
SADOW: I mean, you sat in here when you heard about the shell casings coming off of Mr. Baker's body; right?
SADOW: You heard the lady from the EMS say that one actually fell of his chest; right?
SADOW: From where that was located in reference to the limo leaving, what do you know as to where that limo was hit by the bullet, it could have been shot right from there couldn't it?
SADOW: Somebody in that Ohio 10 group could have taken it off one of the bodies and just opened fire; right?
SADOW: That's how little time went by, right?
SADOW: Before you came in here to testify, and I know this because I saw it, you made your peace with God, right?
LEWIS: All the time. SADOW: And when you agreed to plead guilty, as has been outlined, you signed or consented to a plea agreement that had you do one specific thing when you got on the witness stand; right?
SADOW: Whether it hurt somebody or helped somebody, didn't make any difference...
LEWIS: Not at all.
SADOW: ... you only agreed to do one thing; right?
SADOW: And you swore to your God to do that one thing, right?
SADOW: And the one thing that you swore to do, whether it helped or hurt anybody, was to tell the truth; right?
SADOW: So I know that you have swore to this court that you are going to tell the truth, but a higher body, the Lord, you swore to tell the truth; right?
SADOW: Is there anything you have said about what you witnessed happening to Joseph Sweeting being dragged and beaten by two men that wasn't true?
LEWIS: Are you helping him because he is your friend?
SADOW: Are you telling us the truth because that's what needs to be done?
SADOW: Then that's all I have got to ask.
JUDGE ALICE BONNER, FULTON CO. SUPERIOR COURT: Mr. Harvey?
BRUCE HARVEY, ATTORNEY FOR REGINALD OAKLEY: I had gotten used to seeing you at my side as opposed to across, so is it OK if I call you Ray?
LEWIS: Yes, definitely.
HARVEY: Ray, Mr. Sadow, just finished asking you some questions, I know that you had some questions in your mind about the events that occurred that evening; correct? LEWIS: Correct.
HARVEY: It was always, when you were seated here with us, you were always going through in your mind what happened, you know, these people that have testified are saying things that I don't remember; correct?
HARVEY: And that you heard a theory from the state when you were sitting here and people were testifying, and you were saying: You know, I must have been at a different event, correct?
HARVEY: And you would come back perplexed? and say, you know, where did that come from; right?
HARVEY: Because you knew that what people were saying simply didn't happen or you didn't see it happen; correct?
HARVEY: And you were wondering: Why me? Why as I sitting here being prosecuted for murder when these things that I have heard are simply -- simply did not happen.
HARVEY: And one of the things that you have wondered about I know, because you have told us, you have told Mr. Wolf and I, you have wondered why -- why they came back?
HARVEY: And why they came back talking trash to you?
HARVEY: And why the first person in the lead of this Ohio gang that came back looked to be the smallest?
HARVEY: So the smallest person is in the lead of the gang as they are coming back up the street, back up to the limousine, and you have always wondered why the smallest -- one of the smallest guys out there is coming back at one of the biggest?
HARVEY: And you have always wondered, have you not, and you have always felt, have you not, that is because that person had what we have called an equalizer; right? LEWIS: Correct.
HARVEY: And that would be a weapon that would equalize the Ohio gang with Ray Lewis.
HARVEY: And Ray Lewis, who is not just could have been Ray Lewis, but Ray Lewis who was standing there in a full length mink; right?
HARVEY: Wearing enough rock on him to break the bank. You had a necklace on...
HARVEY: That necklace was visible.
HARVEY: You are standing next to a limo; right?
HARVEY: You are just not Ray Lewis, you are some -- even if you are not Ray Lewis, you are some dude standing there in a full-length mink showing a lot of diamond.
HARVEY: And it has always bothered you, has it not, why they came back at you.
HARVEY: And when they came back at you...
LEWIS: They came back towards the limo.
HARVEY: But who was standing there?
LEWIS: Me and Joseph.
HARVEY: You and Joseph.
HARVEY: And they were saying something.
HARVEY: They were saying something like, "Who the f*ck do you think you guys are?"
LEWIS: Yes, something like that.
HARVEY: We can say whatever the f*ck we want to say, and they are walking back towards you, they ain't walking back towards anybody else.
HARVEY: It is you are the one that's standing right there.
HARVEY: And you know something, what you told Mr. Howard on Sunday, and I'm going to read it to you. And it's your language, and I apologize to everybody.
HARVEY: But the first thing you thought when they are coming back, the whole crowd, the five or six that I just named, seven you said your first thought was: I said "oh shit," because you thought it was time for the Ohio gang to start rocking and rolling on the Ray Lewis team.
HARVEY: That was your absolute first thought.
HARVEY: And you know, you were thinking that here they come with an equalizer and Joseph, who had just been standing there saying: Those guys are tripping, those guys are dangerous. When you say Joseph said: They're tripping, you meant they were dangerous, we've got to look out for these guys,
LEWIS: That's what tripping means, yes.
HARVEY: Right, there is no telling what they are going to do, we don't know, right?
HARVEY: So you are standing and they're coming back, and by the way, by the way, Reginald Oakley was already inside the limousine, was he not?
HARVEY: He was sitting inside the limousine.
HARVEY: You had put him in, made sure that he was in the limousine.
HARVEY: All right, you all were ready to go.
HARVEY: You were ready to go, Joseph was ready to go, they had walked past, mouthing off, right?
HARVEY: And the only reason you didn't go, was not because Reginald Oakley got back out, was because they came back up, that's what kept you from leaving, them coming up, right?
LEWIS: I mean...
HARVEY: Why didn't you get in?
HOWARD: Excuse me, why don't you allow him to answer the question.
HARVEY: Great, please answer the question. You all were talking, you're standing there.
HOWARD: Excuse me, your honor, he's still talking, he has not allowed Mr. Lewis the answer the question.
BONNER: He keeps repeating the question. Mr. Lewis, if you remember the question you may answer it.
LEWIS: You know, it was just like, we were getting ready to go and as they were approaching -- I mean, it was almost an equal or mutual thing, I don't know. Well, yes, we didn't leave because they came back, I guess, I don't know.
HARVEY: Didn't leave because they came back.
LEWIS: Right, they were coming back.
HARVEY: OK, so the only thing that prevented your leaving was not on this team, but it was on that team, otherwise, you would've just hopped in. If they never came back you would've hopped in and gone away.
LEWIS: No, well yes, correct.
HARVEY: Is that that not right?
LEWIS: Right, right.
HARVEY: Because they were already at the front of the limo.
LEWIS: Right, right.
HARVEY: They turned around as a unit, did they not?
HARVEY: They turned around as a unit and came back towards you as a unit and that was when you thought: "Oh shit."
HARVEY: OK, and they're walking back, you standing there and you're kind of frozen there, you're not doing anything.
HARVEY: You are standing there, Joseph is standing there.
HARVEY: Reginald Oakley gets out and walks towards them.
HARVEY: He didn't run towards them?
HARVEY: He didn't yell anything towards them?
HARVEY: He didn't say anything to them?
HARVEY: But at the same time, it was those guys that were saying something to you, right?
HARVEY: So you've got a six on two, a seven on two and Mr. Oakley goes out and he doesn't say a word, you don't hear him say a word.
HARVEY: And you are what, 10 feet away from him?
HARVEY: We are going to use the court reporter again, you're between, you're close enough between me and the court reporter, which is what, 15 feet?
LEWIS: I was probably a little closer, yes.
HARVEY: OK, 10 feet, you've talked about you and the court reporter. what a great relationship distance-wise. LEWIS: Right.
HARVEY: But that's how far apart you were?
HARVEY: And he walked right by you, correct?
HARVEY: You didn't see any knife in his hand?
HARVEY: You didn't see him acting hostile or aggressively other than walking up to them.
HARVEY: He didn't walk up to them and say: "Stand back, I'm going to cut you."
LEWIS: No, no.
HARVEY: He didn't walk up to them and say: "You better not get any closer," did he?
HARVEY: He didn't do anything, in fact he was acting as a barrier or trying to act as a barrier between your group and their group, is that fair?
LEWIS: Yes, yes, yes.
HARVEY: And the first thing that happened when he walked up to them, not saying a world, not displaying any weapon, was that he got whacked with what has been described as, defendant Oakley's exhibit number 2, a bottle of champagne.
HARVEY: All right, and it wasn't just a love tap, was it?
HARVEY: All right, it was an act of aggression, was it not?
HARVEY: I mean, when somebody whacks you with an object like that it, you know, it's taken as: I want to hurt you, right?
LEWIS: I mean, when they hit you, yes.
HARVEY: I want to do damage to you, right? LEWIS: Yes.
HARVEY: And you didn't hear any: Look, look, buddy we don't want any trouble, stay back, or, I'm going to hit you with this bottle. You didn't hear anybody say that either?
You just saw Mr. Oakley walk up, and you saw -- tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how you saw Mr. Baker hit Mr. Oakley.
LEWIS: Well, as soon as A.J. walked up there and approached them, he hit him in the head with the bottle. Just came across him.
HARVEY: Came across him, with the heavy end at the bottom, right?
LEWIS: Yes, right.
HARVEY: I mean, that's a pretty heavy bottle.
HARVEY: It may not heavy for you, but for us champagne drinkers it may be.
HARVEY: But, I mean, it's a big weapon.
HARVEY: OK, and you saw him swing it hard.
HARVEY: All right, and you saw him swing it at Mr. Oakley...
HARVEY: Who in fact, to get hit on the side of the head, he was turning away when he got hit, wasn't he? I mean, to get hit on the side, if you are coming like that, you have got to turn away.
LEWIS: Yes, I guess.
HARVEY: All right, so he sees it coming and he's turning away from it and he gets hit, right?
HARVEY: All right, now, when he gets hit like that, and when you get hit, and you know that when you get hit, in your world, sometimes you get up fast and sometimes slow. LEWIS: Yes.
HARVEY: Because sometimes you take a hit, and it may not be a hard hit, and sometimes it is, but it affects you different ways, correct?
HARVEY: Sometimes you get a little stunned?
HARVEY: And it's fair to say that when Mr. Oakley was hit by that bottle in the fashion that you've shown us, he was stunned?
HOWARD: I am going to object to his stating Oakley's state of mind.
HARVEY: I am talking about his physical description.
BONNER: Describe how he thought Oakley was.
HARVEY: And would you describe that as stunned?
HOWARD: That is a state of mind.
HOWARD: I am objecting to that. He can describe what he saw.
HARVEY: Right. And you can see somebody being dazed, you can see somebody being stunned, you've seen that a hundred times, haven't you?
LEWIS: Yes, I've seen it.
HARVEY: OK, and that was exactly what happened when Mr. Oakley got hit, wasn't it?
HARVEY: OK, now, when they were coming back you told us and you told Mr. Howard that they were saying something.
HARVEY: So it was them that was saying something?
HARVEY: Now, when Mr. Oakley got stunned, he got stunned for a minute and was just like there, right?
LEWIS: Yes. HARVEY: And then he kind of fell forward and was holding on to Mr. Baker, wasn't he?
LEWIS: Right. I saw him -- he was fighting at that time. I just saw the hands being thrown at him.
HARVEY: You saw the hands being thrown?
HARVEY: You clearly got a chance to see Mr. Oakley's hands, because that's what you were looking at, at that time?
LEWIS: Yes, I was looking at him.
HARVEY: And you didn't see any knife in his hands?
HARVEY: And you didn't see when they were punching, they were punching?
HARVEY: Because Baker was punching them?
LEWIS: They was both punching.
HARVEY: OK, and you didn't see any blood in that location, correct?
HARVEY: And that happened right there at the fire hydrant, right around the front of the limousine, correct?
HARVEY: And when Mr. Oakley got hit with the bottle it didn't break there, did it?
HARVEY: He got hit with the bottle and then they started swinging?
HARVEY: OK, and Mr. Baker was backing up, but you clearly got a chance to see his hands, right?
HARVEY: OK, now you had clearly had a chance to see his hands earlier that evening, because you told us when you came back from -- came out of The Cobalt and you were walking with Ms. Robertson, and you passed Fulton Street and Rahana (ph) and Carlos were going to turn off, you said, "Hey, I don't want you walking down that street because of these two guys that are standing here, I don't think it's safe," right?
LEWIS: Yes, I told them I didn't feel right, yes.
HARVEY: I'm sorry?
LEWIS: I just told them I didn't feel right.
HARVEY: Yes, you didn't feel right because you didn't feel it was safe?
HARVEY: OK, those are two of the same guys that you saw with the Ohio Ten, right?
HARVEY: You continued to walk, you gathered Carlos and Rahana. And by the way, Carlos was in that three-quarter-length mink, right?
HARVEY: OK, now you kept walking, you got all the way down by the limousine and when you got all the way down by the limousine, or near -- approaching the limousine, is when you heard what happened back up there?
HARVEY: All right, you didn't hear what started it?
HARVEY: You didn't hear who said what to whom, right?
HARVEY: And you can't tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what kind of statements were made to whom to start any of that event.
HARVEY: But when you got back up there, Kwame King was standing there?
HARVEY: And he was just standing there looking, right?
HARVEY: They were standing there looking at him, but there were words being exchanged.
HARVEY: And you told Mr. Howard, you told us on direct examination that those words -- or you thought that that -- and you used the words "hostile," I think, and maybe aggressive?
HARVEY: And you were talking about Mr. Oakland.
HARVEY: And wouldn't it be fair to say, Mr. Lewis, that it was just as fair to characterize his attitude as responsive as opposed to aggressive.
HOWARD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he cannot state his state of mind. He can state what he saw. And he's asking him again to read his statement. I'm objecting.
HARVEY: No, I'm not. I'm asking him...
BONNER: That's correct, but I will allow him to go into it.
HARVEY: Thank you.
And wouldn't it be fair to characterize Mr. Oakley's actions as responsive as opposed to aggressive?
He could have been responding to what somebody said.
LEWIS: Yes, he could have been.
HARVEY: He could have been responding to name-calling, correct?
HARVEY: He could have been responding to threats, correct?
HARVEY: He could have been responding to anything as opposed to aggressively being hostile, right?
HARVEY: So when you categorize these things for Mr. Howard, that's not necessarily the way it is, right?
LEWIS: Well, I just -- like I said I characterize what I saw.
HARVEY: I understand that. And what you're telling us now is it's just -- it's equally possible that it was responsive and not aggressive.
LEWIS: It could have been.
HARVEY: OK, great. And indeed you saw him gesturing.
HARVEY: You told us you saw Mr. Oakley's hand gestures.
HARVEY: All right. And to see his hand gestures, you had to see his hands, and that's what I was getting to, because I said you saw his hands down by the limousine and you saw his hands up the street, right?
HARVEY: And neither time when you saw his hands did you see anything in it.
HARVEY: And when you picked him up and turned him around and walked back to the limousine or got him going to the limousine, you didn't see him with a knife?
HARVEY: You didn't see him put anything into his pocket, correct?
HARVEY: You didn't see him brandishing a knife, because if you had him around the waste, where's his hands? His hands are going to be right there in front of you, right?
HARVEY: And what he was probably doing is still talking.
HOWARD: Excuse me. I'm going to object to the probably. Speculation.
HARVEY: What he was doing was he was still talking. He was pointing at the guys. That's the hand gestures that you saw. Hey, you guys! Hey, you know...
HOWARD: Excuse me, your honor, but I'm going to object to counsel testifying. He's not asking him a question.
BONNER: He's cross-examining.
HOWARD: I understand.
BONNER: And I think it's proper.
HOWARD: Yes, but your honor, he's stating -- he's not asking him a question.
BONNER: I overrule the objection.
HARVEY: So, that's what he was doing, right? You told us -- you said, "F-U!" You know, let's not be dainty here. He's pointing at the guy. "You know, f*ck you, too, man."
LEWIS: All right. He's saying...
HARVEY: Right. And he's pointing. That's what you do. Right?
HARVEY: OK. And f*ck you, right? And he's pointing like that and he's pointing like that, and you (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
All right. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'm talking to him and I'm pointing at him. And what do you do?
LEWIS: I grab him.
HARVEY: OK, you grab him. And I'm going like this, and I'm going to get you. I mean, I'm going to do this.
HARVEY: Right? And you see his hands?
HARVEY: And you don't see anything in his hands, do you?
HARVEY: All right.
And you didn't hear him say -- you didn't hear him threaten anybody at that time. They were coursing at each other. That's all they were doing.
HARVEY: And nobody -- he didn't say, boy, we need to get those guys.
HARVEY: Nobody said anything like that.
HARVEY: And nobody said, gee, gee, Ray, what -- did he call you Lew-Lew (ph)? Did somebody call you Lew-Lew?
LEWIS: Yes, that's what they called me.
HARVEY: And other folk?
HARVEY: Gee, Lew, we've got to get these guys.
HARVEY: I mean, Joseph didn't say that.
HARVEY: Reginald didn't say that.
HARVEY: I mean, it was over, wasn't it, as far as you're concerned?
HARVEY: You got back in the limousine, and you're just standing there. You're still feeling -- what did you tell us you're still feeling? Mellow. You're feeling rosy, you're feeling good, you're special.
HARVEY: All right. OK.
Just like Reme Martin, smooth?
HARVEY: And immediately -- immediately upon Mr. Oakley getting hit with that bottle, being stunned and starting this fight, Joseph Sweeting jumps out to come to his aid.
HARVEY: And that's when the Ohio gang jumps and the rest of the Ohio gang jumps in, don't they?
HARVEY: They all jump in and it was all hell broke loose.
HARVEY: And you know something, you were just standing -- you were looking -- you were like "What's going on?"
HARVEY: And something was happening with Joseph, something was happening with Reginald. You can't look in two places at once, I mean, unless you've got eyeballs that go in different directions.
LEWIS: I mean, you don't have to look in two places at once if they're right there in the same area.
HARVEY: Well, they weren't the whole time.
LEWIS: No, not the while time.
HARVEY: OK. That's what I'm saying.
LEWIS: Oh, OK.
HARVEY: So they started in that area and then they split.
HARVEY: Joseph and his two attackers, he's being dragged around the corner of the tree.
HARVEY: Behind the tree is where it's dark. You can't see over there.
HARVEY: There are shadows. You don't know what's cooking back there.
HARVEY: Because you can't see through the tree.
HARVEY: All right. And two guys are -- remember when you were here, when you were not the linebacker Ray Lewis, but you were called the defendant Lewis. LEWIS: Right.
HARVEY: When you were the defendant Lewis, Jeff Gwynn (ph) said he saw somebody pulling a shirt over their head.
HARVEY: That was this shorty, wasn't it? It was this shorty that was being attacked like that, wasn't it?
HOWARD: ... object (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He identified the person that he saw pulling that.
BONNER: The jury will remember what the evidence was.
HARVEY: And that's -- but that's exactly, that's exactly the way when you were defendant Lewis that was described on this witness stand, wasn't it? Pulling -- pulling the hood over -- it's a hockey fight. Do you know when they get in hockey fights, he pulls his shirt over...
HOWARD: Excuse me, your honor. I'm objecting to that again. Jeff Gwynn's identified the person that he saw doing that. It was not this Mr. Lewis. It was...
BONNER: The jury will remember the evidence.
HARVEY: I'm asking about the actions.
BONNER: I'll ask you to ask questions rather than testify.
HARVEY: OK. That was the exact same physical movements as you heard described when you were the defendant Lewis, correct?
LEWIS: Well, what I said I saw is what I saw the two guys grab Joseph. I don't remember what Jeff Gwynn said.
HARVEY: But they're pulling the -- the shirt over his head.
LEWIS: That's what they were doing to Joseph.
HARVEY: Right. And they were dragging him and fighting with him.
And they got him behind the tree, and you know something: They were dragging him back there. You were watching him being dragged, weren't you?
LEWIS: Correct. HARVEY: OK. And when you were walking -- watching him being dragged behind the tree, that was the focus of your attention and your attention wasn't in the other area.
LEWIS: At that time.
HARVEY: Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying.
HARVEY: You can't watch two things at once. They were in two different directions at that point, weren't they, Ray?
HARVEY: OK. So that the time it took for Joseph Sweeting to get dragged back over there, you were focusing on him.
HARVEY: Everybody -- everybody in that limousine had gotten out and was out there fighting. The only people that were not there fighting -- the ladies probably weren't out there fighting, but they were out.
HARVEY: You and Jessica are standing there. Everybody else in the immediate zip code was fighting.
HARVEY: OK. You've got the five or six Akron guys. They're all fighting. You've got, you know, the other guys in your limousine .
HARVEY: And everybody is out there.
HARVEY: And you've got a scene out there in front of you that's hard to describe.
HARVEY: OK. And so you had time periods, a short time period in which you didn't see what was going on with Mr. Oakley and Mr. Baker or whoever else may have been out there.
HARVEY: But you eventually saw the three-quarter-length mink coat out there, didn't you?
LEWIS: Correct. HARVEY: And you saw them down by Mr. Baker.
HARVEY: Now you told Mr. Howard that you saw Mr. Oakley hitting Mr. Baker.
HARVEY: And he was behind him, correct?
HARVEY: All right. And he was coming over his shoulder.
HARVEY: And hitting him in the top of the chest.
HARVEY: Punching him.
HARVEY: And you saw his hand.
HARVEY: And you did not -- you did not see any knife in his hand.
HARVEY: And was hitting him, punching him over the shoulder, right?
HARVEY: Not around -- not round-houses but over the top.
HARVEY: OK. And he was doing that with his right hand, was he not?
HARVEY: OK. Now, at that particular time, since everything was moving so fast, you didn't have a real opportunity to view everybody that came back into the limousine.
HARVEY: I mean, it was -- and I think you've described it as chaos, right? LEWIS: Right.
HARVEY: All right. So it's a chaotic situation. People are running left and right. People are running off and they're coming back to the limousine. And you're trying to get them in the limousine. And you remember Duane, your driver was back there behind you, wasn't he? Oh, you don't even know where Duane was.
LEWIS: No. Yes, I don't remember him.
HARVEY: Everybody piles in. You jump in and, you know, I think you told Mr. Howard that everybody got down right away.
LEWIS: Right, as soon as we started pulling off.
HARVEY: Soon as we started pulling off, and one of the things that you know that you had to pull around was that gold Honda, right?
LEWIS: Well, we pulled around the car -- whichever car was that on the curb. I'm not sure.
HARVEY: Right, there was a car there that you had to go around. You didn't go -- you couldn't go...
LEWIS: No, we couldn't go straight.
HARVEY: ... couldn't go straight.
LEWIS: We had to pull around.
HARVEY: You had to pull around the car that was already there. You just don't know what kind of car it was.
HARVEY: OK. But before you could even get around the car is when you heard the gunshots.
HARVEY: And that was when everybody was down on the ground.
HARVEY: And everybody stayed down on the ground -- I mean, on the limo -- on the carpeting in the limo -- or down at least below seat level...
HARVEY: ... all the way to the Holiday Inn.
HARVEY: And when you got to the Holiday Inn, everybody was wondering what was going on. LEWIS: Correct.
HARVEY: But we knew -- you knew when you got out -- that the tire was flat.
HARVEY: And do you remember the fact that Reginald Oakley was the one that stayed down there and helped Duane try to get the spare from underneath the back of the truck?
HARVEY: So when you told the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, and when you told Mr. Howard that everybody went right up to the Holiday Inn, everybody but A.J. -- and that's how you knew him.
HARVEY: I mean, you really didn't know him as Reginald Oakley, right?
HARVEY: OK. You knew him as A.J.
HARVEY: And when you told everybody that everybody went up to the Holiday Inn, everybody but A.J. when up there, right?
LEWIS: Yes, at that -- yes, at that time.
HARVEY: And when you got up to the Holiday Inn -- I mean, I'm confident you didn't look around the limousine.
HARVEY: You were -- you were trying to figure out what to do. I mean, you didn't know -- you literally didn't know what you should do at that point.
LEWIS: Right -- more mad than anything.
HARVEY: Right, because it was -- you knew that the focus would be on you.
HARVEY: And you didn't know what had happened. You didn't know really why it had happened.
HARVEY: But you were worried about, you know, there's no need for this to happen. LEWIS: Right.
HARVEY: All right. And when you went back up to the Holiday Inn, everybody had already been up there except for A.J., and that included Carlos -- that included Kwame -- and included, I guess, Geno (ph) and Claudice.
HARVEY: All right. And those folks were worried about what was going on, and they had gone up there to clean up as well, right?
LEWIS: I don't know about clean up. I just know everybody went up there.
HARVEY: But they were already up there.
HARVEY: OK. And when you got up there and you were talking to the two folks, A.J. wasn't there. He wasn't around at that particular point.
LEWIS: No. I didn't see him.
HARVEY: OK. In fact, you got a cab before A.J. got back up there, didn't you?
HARVEY: OK. So any conversation and anything that was happening at the Holiday Inn and conversations that you were telling people what to do happened before A.J. got back up to the Holiday Inn.
HARVEY: To the best of your recollection.
HARVEY: OK. And I understood, the first cab that you took was you and Kwame and Jessica.
HARVEY: Now, would it be fair to say that, you know, Kwame's your old buddy?
HARVEY: He came -- you picked him up on the way down.
HARVEY: And you play ball with Kwame.
HARVEY: Where did you play ball with Kwame?
LEWIS: High school.
HARVEY: All right. So you're almost a childhood -- it'd be fair to say a childhood friend.
LEWIS: We grew up together, all my life.
HARVEY: You grew up together.
HARVEY: You picked him up. He stayed at your place. And then everybody else was coming in.
HARVEY: Joseph you had known for, I think you said, four years.
HARVEY: And you had been out with him before.
HARVEY: But you know something, the wrong guy in this particular group -- the one guy you had never been out with by yourself -- outside the presence of Garfield Julie (ph), who is your friend -- was A.J., right?
HARVEY: All right. He was the odd man out of this crew. Because he wasn't the guy that you'd hung with or grew up or with or knew for many years, correct?
HARVEY: All right. And in fact is, you understood that the only reason that A.J. came by himself was because Garfield had a prior commitment -- couldn't make it.
HARVEY: OK. But Garfield was coming too. He was supposed to come.
HARVEY: And that's why A.J. got invited to your group.
HARVEY: OK. And I think you told us and told the ladies and gentlemen of the jury that the only way you go to the Super Bowl is if you were playing.
HARVEY: So you're down here for the big game. Everybody's thrilled. Everybody's going to the game. You all don't go to the game. A.J. goes to the game.
HARVEY: And that night before you went out with A.J. is when he came in and he was excited about that.
HARVEY: I mean, he had tickets. He had his pendants. He has his pins. He said: It was a great game, man. This is really cool. Let me show you what I got.
HARVEY: All right. And you know -- although there's been some comment about it in the trial -- that he wasn't staying there at the Georgian Terrace, he was staying somewhere else.
HARVEY: He was staying at the Marriott.
HARVEY: And when you had hooked up earlier, you had hooked up by cab.
HARVEY: He'd taken a cab over.
HARVEY: OK. But when you were back at -- when you were back at the Holiday Inn -- I mean -- not the Holiday Inn, I'm sorry -- when you were back ultimately at the Georgian Terrace, everybody comes in and that includes Carlos.
LEWIS: Yes. Everybody comes back.
HARVEY: And eventually A.J.
HARVEY: And I think -- and I think you told -- you -- yes, everybody but Joseph.
HARVEY: OK. I think you told Mr. Howard that when A.J. got back to the Holiday -- to the Georgian Terrace -- he was bleeding bad -- very badly.
HARVEY: And he was being attended to -- his medical needs were being attended to, correct?
LEWIS: Yes, by the girls who sit on the couch.
HARVEY: By the girls sitting on the couch.
HARVEY: OK. And it was at this particular time that -- that you -- you were trying to find out with everybody there what happened.
HARVEY: And it was before you had heard the news.
LEWIS: Right. HARVEY: But you've got the group gathered there, absent Joseph, and you're saying to the collected group: What happened?
HARVEY: All right. And A.J. says: I didn't do nothing. I was hitting or beating the guy.
HARVEY: And you said: Well you must have. You must have done something...
HARVEY: ... because I saw you out there hitting.
HARVEY: Right? And he said: That's it. That's all I was doing.
LEWIS: Correct. HARVEY: OK. And you can't say that anybody else like Carlos wasn't hitting Baker, whether you saw it or not.
HARVEY: OK. And you know, at that particular time, that Carlos hit Baker with the bottle?
HARVEY: And that's how the bottle gets out on the street.
LEWIS: Broke, right.
HARVEY: That's how it broke because somebody else hit Baker with the bottle. And you didn't even -- you didn't see that.
LEWIS: Right. I had no idea.
HARVEY: But -- so you know that there was fighting out there...
HARVEY: ... and fighting with baker that you didn't have a chance to see. But in your presence, and in everybody's presence, you were told about it.
LEWIS: Correct. .
HARVEY: And, by the way, you were looking for an explanation and you were looking for an explanation from -- these are you friends, right?
HARVEY: At the Georgian Terrace.
HARVEY: I mean, you were sitting there, and you were -- from your heart, you were trying to find out what was cooking.
LEWIS: Yes. I wanted to know what happened, what went on really.
HARVEY: And it was something that was very important to you, right? Your attitude and demeanor stressed the importance of you getting an honest answer.
HARVEY: And when you heard the answer from A.J. that he didn't do anything that you had to worry about, because that was the context, right.
LEWIS: Right. HARVEY: When he said that, said it to you and looked at you in the eye.
LEWIS: He said it to me.
HARVEY: And you believed him?
LEWIS: I mean, I just kept talking from that point in time about -- I sat down and asked him, did I believe him or not at that time?
HARVEY: You accepted what he said?
LEWIS: I just went...
HARVEY: And after you saw the news that someone had been stabbed, some folks had been stabbed, did you ever then reask Mr. Oakley, did you say, did you stab anybody?
HARVEY: Well, because he already told you he didn't.
HARVEY: And you didn't feel that there was any need to ask him again because he had already told you that he did not do that to anyone. Is that right?
HARVEY: Did you ever ask anybody to cover up any activities that you had done?
HARVEY: Did you ever ask anybody to throw anything out?
HARVEY: Did you ever see handing anybody anything...
HARVEY: At the Georgian Terrace to throw out?
HARVEY: Did you ask anybody to put anything in a bag an throw something out?
HARVEY: Did you ever see any knives at the Georgian Terrace.
HARVEY No? And did you ever ask anybody to say anything that wasn't true?
HARVEY: And one of the things that you told Mr. Howard -- well, let me strike that. You don't know if Carlos threw anything away, do you?
HARVEY: You don't know what that may be or why.
HARVEY: And you heard some testimony about him throwing things away.
HARVEY: Didn't have anything to do with you?
HARVEY: Didn't have anything to do with anybody asking him to do that in your presence, correct?
HARVEY: OK. And finally, one of the things that you told Mr. Howard, that you told Mr. Howard on Sunday, just like you were sitting here, that the people sitting here might not be the people -- it's exactly what he told Mr. Howard -- might not be the people, and you have no way of knowing, might not be the people who were responsible for the deaths of Mr. Lollar and Mr. Baker, right?
HARVEY: I think that's all I have at this time.
BONNER: Any redirect?
HOWARD: Yes your honor.
Mr. Lewis, I'd like to -- you were asked a question about leading, asking Rahana to come back to the -- to get in the limousine.
HOWARD: Correct. And, as I understand, the reason you asked her is because of what she was wearing.
HOWARD: Not because of anything you saw those two men doing.
HOWARD: At the time that you saw those two men, what were they doing?
HOWARD: They were doing nothing to...
HOWARD: They hadn't said anything to her.
HOWARD: And you're asking her to do it because she was wearing a see-through blouse.
LEWIS: I knew what she had on, exactly.
HOWARD: That's Correct.
LEWIS: Right, correct.
HOWARD: Now when you were asked the questions about what you saw Oakley, the defendant Reginald Oakley doing after that, and on direct you described his action as being hostile and aggressive.
HOWARD: Now the two men who were standing on the corner, did you at any time see them do anything that was hostile or aggressive at that time?
LEWIS: No. They had basically the same demeanor that Joseph and Kwame had. They were just sitting there just blurting off at the mouth really.
HOWARD: Well, let me ask you again so I make sure the jury understands. At that time, did you see them doing anything hostile or aggressive?
LEWIS: No. No.
HOWARD: Did you see them doing anything that Mr. Oakley would have had to respond to?
HOWARD: Nothing at all?
HOWARD: Is that the reason when you went up to get Oakley you did not say anything to those men?
HOWARD: But what you did is to get Oakley.
HOWARD: And why did you get him?
LEWIS: Because he was is won in the frantic mood that I had to -- when I walked up there, he was the one with the most gestures, and so that's why I grabbed him and pulled him back to the limo.
HOWARD: Did you ever see the men gesture.
LEWIS: No, I grabbed him and I walked off.
HOWARD: So when you came back to the car -- now I want to make sure that I understand what you mean -- you said the word "tripping" means what?
LEWIS: Tripping -- I mean you can use it in a lot of different terminologies but the way that Joseph said it when he said, "You ready get in the car because these cats tripping?" When he said that, that means they fitting to come back to, you know, start something, or you know, just trip.
HOWARD: So when you say the word "tripping," you can use it in many contexts.
HOWARD: In fact, you yourself use the word "tripping."
HOWARD: When you were describing to the jury the -- when you were shown the knife by Joseph Sweeting, what did you say to Joseph Sweeting at that time?
HARVEY: This subject matter for him to go into it certainly not through the related question, and that's exactly what it is, so I object.
BONNER: Rephrase your question.
HOWARD: What did you say to Joseph Sweeting at that time?
BONNER: In the limo?
BONNER: Oh, I said when he brought the knife, I said, "Are y'all cats tripping with these knives?"
HOWARD: Does that mean dangerous at that time?
LEWIS: Like I said, it can be used in so many contexts.
HOWARD: So when you were standing there at the limo -- let me ask you a question about the limo -- as you're sitting on the outside, can you look through the glass and see on the outside? LEWIS: If you're sitting on the inside.
LEWIS: If you're sitting on the inside, you should be able to see out. You just can't really see in.
HOWARD: You can not see in?
LEWIS: Not really.
HOWARD: But you can see out?
HOWARD: Now you mentioned the phrase that Joseph Sweeting said to you it -- "These guys are tripping."
HOWARD: Did he say anything after that?
HOWARD: Nothing at all?
LEWIS: Not that I can recall.
HOWARD: And after that, Reginald Oakley got out of the limousine.
HOWARD: And when he got out, the men that you were talking about were some distance in front of you.
HOWARD: So he had to walk up to them.
LEWIS: Right, where they...
HOWARD: Is that correct, Mr. Lewis?
LEWIS: Right. They basically met each other is what it really boiled down to, but they were already coming back to...
HOWARD: You were asked the question, "Did you see Joseph going to his aid?"
LEWIS: Right, he went to help Oakley.
HOWARD: You did not hear Joseph say anything?
HOWARD: So you don't know what was in Joseph's mind.
HOWARD: You simply saw him go forward?
HOWARD: Is that correct?
HOWARD: You don't know what was in his mind?
HOWARD: So when you saying he going to aid that is simply what you assumed?
LEWIS: I assumed -- somebody else said "aid." I said he was going to help Oakley.
HOWARD: That's what you assumed.
LEWIS: That's what I said.
HOWARD: Now let me be clear about this, when you described what happened this morning and when you talked to me on Sunday, did you indicate that you were -- once you saw this fight taking place, that you were so disgusted that you wanted to leave?
HOWARD: In fact, you were going to leave without Joseph and Oakley.
BONNER: Mr. Howard, you need to change your mode. It's improper to lead the witness who's been called by the state.
HOWARD: Were you planning -- thank you, your honor.
Were you planning to leave without Joseph and Oakley?
HARVEY: Isn't that (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
HOWARD: Were you planning to leave at that time?
I'm just simply asking him.
HARVEY: Excuse me, the correct way of asking the question is what were you planning to do, if anything?
BONNER: Mr. Howard, I will sustain the objection.
HOWARD: When everybody -- when the four of the people started running back to the limousine, did you make a decision about staying there at that time?
HARVEY: Again, the same thing, the question suggests an answer. Did you make a decision about anything, or what did you make a decision about if anything?
HOWARD: Your honor, I simply asked him, did he make a decision. It doesn't indicate what, if any decision he made.
BONNER: I'll allow the question.
LEWIS: When the fighting...
BONNER: Yes or no.
HOWARD: And what decision was that?
LEWIS: To leave.
HOWARD: Were you going to leave without the people that came with you?
LEWIS: Whoever wasn't in the limo was going to be left.
HOWARD: And why were you going to leave, Mr. Lewis?
LEWIS: Because I was the same one trying to stop the fight.
HOWARD: Did -- what was your feeling at that time?
HARVEY: His feeling at the time is irrelevant.
HOWARD: Well, your honor, it was not irrelevant. They have asked him whether or not he felt danger at the time.
HARVEY: Right, and so...
HOWARD: His feelings must not be irrelevant?
HARVEY: He answered the question without an objection. I -- maybe I missed it, I didn't hear an objection from the state. I am objecting at this particular time.
BONNER: I'll sustain it.
HARVEY: Thank you.
HOWARD: So did you make a statement to anyone about your desiring to leave?
LEWIS: All I said was, I'm out of here.
HOWARD: And who were you talking to?
LEWIS: Everybody. HOWARD: Now, Mr. Lewis, did you -- do you think that there's anything wrong with defending yourself?
HOWARD: Yes, sir.
HOWARD: Do you believe that that's legal?
HOWARD: Now, when you got into the limousine, heading to the Holiday Inn, what was it that you, if anything, said to the people in the limousine.
LEWIS: I don't think I said nothing really at that time. I think when the limo was pulling off that's when everybody started getting down because of the gunshot.
HOWARD: Did you at -- before you got to the Holiday Inn, did you give them any instructions, the people in the limo?
LEWIS: No. The only instructions I gave was -- it wasn't instructions.
HOWARD: What did you say?
LEWIS: It was just out of frustration, me saying that, you know, everybody is tripping, you know what I'm saying, everybody just shut the f*ck up and just -- because you're tripping, that's what I said. I didn't give instructions, that wasn't directed to say.
HOWARD: Why would you at that time tell them to be quiet about defending oneself?
HARVEY: He mischaracterizes what he said. He said he wasn't giving anybody any instructions, and I object to the form of that question, move to strike and ask for a punitive instruction.
BONNER: I will sustain the objection. You may rephrase the question.
HOWARD: What did you say to the people in the limo at that time?
HARVEY: Already asked and answered.
HOWARD: When the shots were fired, did you at that time see a gun?
LEWIS: No. HOWARD: Did you at any time see a gun in the possession of the other people that you described?
HOWARD: Now, Mr. Lewis, you were asked questions about being -- seeing fights, or being involved, or seeing fights before, or seeing a fight before, not this fight?
LEWIS: OK, OK, right, right.
HOWARD: And has it been your experience that when people are in a fight and if they have a gun they pull it out and use it?
LEWIS: Yes, sometimes.
HOWARD: And -- or at least they pull it out to scare people off?
LEWIS: Could be.
HOWARD: Did you see anybody on this occasion pull out any gun?
HOWARD: Now, while you were being crossed the thing that -- I believe you said that when you were in that limousine, you were mad?
HOWARD: Yes, sir.
HOWARD: What were you mad about?
LEWIS: The whole thing.
HOWARD: Now, I would like to go back to Joseph Sweeting, you indicated what you saw when -- what happened behind the tree, is that correct?
LEWIS: What happened before -- yes, basically, correct.
HOWARD: Now, once that was completed, what did you see Joseph Sweeting do at that time?
HARVEY: We covered this area...
HOWARD: But, your honor, this is...
BONNER: Would you let him complete his objection, please?
HARVEY: I believe that this was precisely what was brought out on direct examination.
BONNER: And your response? HOWARD: Your honor, this is a redirect of the question that was asked on cross.
BONNER: Is there any reason it's not cumulative, that is repetitive?
HOWARD: No, it's not cumulative, your honor.
It is definitely cumulative. He was asked at that time about his actions being defense, I am simply asking what he did after the incident that he described under the tree.
BONNER: Well, I think it's been asked and answered, but I'll let you ask that question.
HOWARD: What did you see Joseph Sweeting do at that time?
LEWIS: I'm really not sure what...
HOWARD: This was after you described what happened near or under the tree.
HOWARD: Do you know what I'm talking about?
LEWIS: After he started fighting back?
HOWARD: That's correct.
HOWARD: What did you see him do after that?
LEWIS: I didn't -- he was still fighting.
HOWARD: And what did he do after that?
LEWIS: After the fight was over, he ran back to the limo.
HOWARD: When -- when he was at the tree, what is the next stop that you saw him fighting?
LEWIS: Like around the tree, down -- further down by the sidewalk.
Once he regained his footing, is that what you're talking about?
HOWARD: Once he regained his footing, did he go to any location beyond that?
LEWIS: Down by the -- they were still fighting down by the fire hydrant, where the big crowd was.
HOWARD: Was that further down the street?
LEWIS: Yes, where the crowd was, where I showed you earlier.
HOWARD: And was he fighting down there?
LEWIS: There was a crowd of people fighting down there. That's where he ended up at, because that's where he was running back from after.
HOWARD: And they were still fighting?
LEWIS: It was over. Yes, it was breaking up.
HOWARD: Now, you described and you were asked on cross- examination about seeing Oakley reaching around the man that was on the ground?
HOWARD: Had you seen him throw blows...
HARVEY: Excuse me. That mischaracterizes it. He never -- in fact, he said he did not see him reach around. He said he saw him reach over, I was very specific and particular about that, so I object to the mischaracterization of the question.
BONNER: Just ask your next question without stating what you think was said earlier.
HOWARD: Prior to that motion, did you see Oakley in front of the person that you described as Baker?
LEWIS: Only when they started fighting from the first beginning.
HOWARD: And did you see him delivering blows at that time?
LEWIS: Well, both of them were -- they were just fighting really.
HOWARD: And my question was, did you see Reginald Oakley delivering blows at that time?
LEWIS: Yes, I guess.
HOWARD: When you saw the -- Mr. Baker on the ground and -- was he defending himself at that time?
HARVEY: That has already been asked and answered. Again, it's the same thing that was gone over in direct examination and I did not ask any questions about that on cross examination.
HOWARD: Your honor, they have asked...
BONNER: I'll allow it.
Mr. Howard, what I don't like is repetition.
HOWARD: Your honor, I understand this. BONNER: Redirect is not an opportunity to ask the same questions.
HOWARD: Your honor...
BONNER: If you will wait until I finish, I would appreciate it. Redirect is not a chance to re-ask our questions and be last in presenting that point of view. It's to go into issues that were not covered on with direct...
WATERS: While they do housekeeping duties, we're going to call in CNN legal analyst Roger Cossack to tell us exactly what we're hearing here -- Roger.
ROGER COSSACK, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this is a little dispute that always goes on in the courtroom between lawyers. Redirect is not to start your case all over again, which is what lawyers love to do. And you'll see some re-cross examination, too. It's the same thing. And the judge has to be very careful to not let them just start all over again, and that's why you hear these arguments about cumulative, and I didn't go into that, because they are not allowed to do that. This is very narrow kind of testimony. So that's why you'll see these disputes break out in the courtroom like this.
WATERS: Can you give us a quick synopsis of what's going on here, what is the strategy of the two defense attorneys?
COSSACK: Well, it's pretty clear what they are trying to do is point out the fact that this could have been a self defense issue, if at all, that their defendants did it. First of all, remember, there is no eyewitness testimony that has ever said -- by Ray Lewis, that's said that they saw either of one of these defendants wielding a knife. There -- in fact, he never saw any blood on them, he never saw them stab anyone.
There is also the issue that was brought up that just as they left in the limo, when they broke apart, gunshots rang out and with the implication being that perhaps one of these people had a gun and that perhaps there might have been some self defense if, in fact, they used the knife. So they are trying to bring in all those kinds of things. Ray Lewis has been a very, very good witness for the defense in this case, perhaps not as great a witness for the prosecution as they thought have -- as they thought he would be originally.
WATERS: All right, the prosecutor is back at his redirect with Ray Lewis on the stand. Let's keep listening.
HOWARD: ... the same question.
HOWARD: And you remember what your answer was at that time.
HOWARD: I'd like to show you -- this is on page 32 of the transcript, and this is page seven. I would like for you to read seven and eight. And would you indicate whether or not that refreshes your memory?
SADOW: What was that line?
I object. Not only has he led them to a spot which is not consistent with the Georgian Terrace conversation. It's about a different conversation at a different point in time. So this is -- this misleading and just flat-out inaccurate.
BONNER: Well, should I send the jury out so I can determine whether this is consistent with the conversation to which you pointed the witness or will you look at it and make sure it is?
HOWARD: Yes, your honor, I'll look it.
SADOW: If you look at page 35, you'll see lines two through 10.
WATERS: All right, Roger Cossack, can you explain this one for us?
COSSACK: Yes. What's happened here, Lou, is this is called refreshing past recorded memory. What the witness has been asked a question about something he might have said earlier, he says I -- I don't recall. They then they have to show him the statement and say take a look at this, see whether or not this refreshes your memory. The objection is that no, you're talking about something else entirely, this shouldn't be part of what this is all about. What the judge has said, though, is: You take a look at it, see what you remember, Ray Lewis. You're the witness. If it is, we'll go forward. If it isn't, we'll work it out thereafter.
WATERS: And why might the jury have to be sent out of the room?
COSSACK: Well, because if there's a dispute as to exactly what they're talking about and when they're talking about it, then there may be evidence that the jury shouldn't hear if it's improper. So unless they can figure it out, then, if they can, they'll go on. If not, the judge will be the one that makes the ultimate determination, and then they'll bring the jury back in/
WATERS: It looks like the judge has made some sort of decision. We were talking while it was going on. They are dismissing the jury. So we will take a break, Roger, and we'll be back to you shortly.
WATERS: The jury is back in the room as Ray Lewis and the prosecutor go over prior system about Lewis' recollections about that night immediately following the fight in Buckhead after that fight broke out at a Super Bowl party.
Roger, if you could explain -- Roger Cossack, our CNN legal analyst, is with us here in Washington. Tell us exactly what's going on here. COSSACK: Well, this is a very crucial part, because what Mr. Howard is doing is pointing out that one time -- some time earlier on Ray Lewis during conversations he had with, I think, Oakley where Oakley indicated that he had a knife in his hand, he thought that Oakley meant -- at least he indicated Oakley might have meant that he stabbed someone.
And as he testified on the witness stand, he testified somewhat differently than that on the witness stand. So what Howard is trying to do is bring him back to some -- to his prior statements and get his prior testimony.
As you know all along, Lou, there's been problems in this case with witnesses getting up on behalf of the prosecution and apparently not saying what they thought they were going to say.
WATERS: And also earlier this morning, Roger, Lewis testified that Sweeting, the other defendant in the case, told him that he threw punches with a knife in his hand. So, that -- that would at first blush seem to be good for the prosecution.
COSSACK: Yes, that's right. I think I might have said Oakley, and I think I meant Sweeting as the person I was initially talking about, Lou. You're right. And that is good for the prosecution.
So I think that what's happening here is they're trying to bring Lewis back. I think Lewis in his testimony has been, you know, rather benign in light of what he saw these gentlemen do, the dependents do. He's been -- you know, he never saw them with a knife in the hand. He never saw them stab anybody. He never saw them with blood. And the only part that he did say is he had a conversation where he saw -- I think it was Sweeting -- make that gesture with a knife in his hand. And I think that's what he's trying to get him now to come back and say, didn't you, in fact, think that he'd stabbed someone?
WATERS: All right. Let's see what the prosecutor gets here.
HOWARD: Now, I also asked you a question, and I'd like you to refer to page 36. And this is lines 23 and 24 and 25.
HOWARD: Lines 23, 24 and 25.
HOWARD: And on page 37 the remainder of that answer.
HOWARD: And does that refresh your recollection, your memory regarding your answer to the question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no question before the witness right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me. There's no question before the witness to refresh his memory about it.
BONNER: Ask your next question.
HOWARD: That's what I'm doing right now.
Mr. Lewis, how many people -- you described what you saw on that night. How many people did you see do something or in action in a stabbing motion?
HARVEY: Your honor, objection to that question, because he never testified here or anywhere else as to Mr. Howard's question. It is a leading question, it is an improper question. It's a question that has no basis in the evidence. It was not a question that was asked to him before, and I object on those bases.
HOWARD: Your honor, he was asked specifically whether or not he saw anyone stabbing, or whether or nor saw someone with a knife.
HOWARD: Excuse me.
HARVEY: I'm sorry. I apologize.
HOWARD: And I am simply redirecting him regarding that same issue.
HARVEY: That's -- that's -- the problem was he was asked to describe what he saw. He said he saw someone hitting. He never said he saw anybody stabbing. That is Mr. Howard's word. I would ask...
BONNER: I think that it's been asked and answered, and you've gone into it enough, Mr. Howard. I'll sustain the objection.
HOWARD: Mr. Lewis, let me ask you regarding Duane Fassett, and you were asked a question regarding what statements Mr. Fassett said.
HOWARD: And do you know of any reason that Mr. Fassett would have to make up something on you.
HOWARD: You testified that you made a statement to Lieutenant Smith.
HOWARD: Now, the -- I'll make sure I understand this. The statement that you made was a statement that was untrue.
HOWARD: Now, you weren't trying to tell us that the policeman forced you to give an untrue statement.
LEWIS: I wasn't trying to say he forced me to give me anything. I was just saying that the way they asked me the question about how was the investigation or my statement was taken down, and I explained to them how it was taken down.
HOWARD: They did not trick you?
LEWIS: I would use threaten before I use trick.
HOWARD: As a result of them threatening you, is that the reason that you made the statement?
LEWIS: Well, that's the reason why I think I didn't really tried to understand why I was making the statement. It didn't really matter at that time about the statement. I was just trying to give them whatever they wanted to get them out of my face at that time.
HOWARD: So you believe that what you gave them was what they wanted?
LEWIS: I tried to tell them anything they wanted to get them out of my face.
HOWARD: So I think you were asked this morning on direct why did you give the statement. What is your answer to that question?
LEWIS: I can tell you why I lied -- I wouldn't have lied. So I can't say that.
HOWARD: Your honor, we have no further questions at this time.
SADOW: Very, very briefly. I just want to touch a couple of areas.
Mr. Howard on redirect said something about Joseph coming to the aid of A.J. He made some issue about the word aid.
SADOW: Now, I want to set the stage so that it's clear.
On Sunday, when you were talking to Mr. Howard, I wasn't there, right?
SADOW: Joseph wasn't there, right?
SADOW: Mr. Burgendal (ph) wasn't there, right?
SADOW: Mr. Wolf (ph) wasn't there.
SADOW: A.J. wasn't there.
SADOW: Mr. Harvey wasn't there, right?
SADOW: It was sitting around a little table. It was you and Mr. Howard, and -- I don't know if she's still in here or not -- an attractive blonde woman who was kind of like taking it down on a tape recorder, right?
SADOW: Now, I know your lawyers were around, but they weren't sitting at the table, right?
SADOW: So whatever was being asked of you was being asked by the prosecution.
SADOW: It wasn't being directed by us.
SADOW: We had nothing to do with it.
SADOW: Exactly. We didn't even know it was going on, did we?
SADOW: Page 20, you were asked this question, right?
SADOW: Line 14. "Put one of those men where you saw the other guys."
Your answer was: "The other guy was right here, you know. He was in the same spot. They were all down here, but these other guys were right here."
WATERS: All right, Ray Lewis' testimony given in exchange for a deal struck with the prosecutor to reduce his charges from murder and assault to obstruction of justice.
CNN legal analyst Roger Cossack has been watching all of this today.
Was the deal worth it for the prosecution? I know that's a big question, Roger, but what do you thing?
COSSACK: Well, Lou, you know, we're going to have to wait and see what the jury decides, I suppose. If they get what they wanted, which is to convince the jury that at least the two remaining defendants are guilty, then it will be.
I will tell you I would be surprised, though. Lewis really walked down the line. He gave the prosecution a little bit, but he also didn't bury the defense.
Yes, he admits that there was fighting going on. He admits that Oakley and Sweeting were involved in the fight. He even puts a knife in one of their hands thereafterwards. But he never saw them stab anyone. He makes it clear that the other group was the aggressors. They were the ones that came back, that all the hard words were over, and they came back. And he thought there was danger and he thought there was trouble, and if they'd had kept going, there wouldn't have been a fight.
So -- and he talks about how there were gunshots immediately upon -- upon -- when they left and made it clear that perhaps there was a gun involved.
So he didn't really bury the defense, and he helped the prosecution somewhat. But you know, he didn't really hurt the defense a lot either.
WATERS: Yes. The subplot, the message I kept hearing was, they attacked us.
COSSACK: That I think he made very clear, that they were the aggressors, they came. There was a small guy who was leading the group; perhaps -- that testimony we heard -- perhaps there was an equalizer in the sense that maybe somebody had a gun. You know, why else would you come after a guy the size of Ray Lewis? Something was wrong here.
He clearly put out enough information that if the jury feels there's a reasonable doubt, if they think there is one, they can find a reasonable doubt.
WATERS: All right. We will continue to follow the trial, of course. There is much more of that to go.
Ray Lewis, it appears, is free to go, back to Baltimore to continue his football career.
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