Burden of Proof

Hanging Death Mystery in Mississippi: Suicide or Murder?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROGER COSSACK, CO-HOST: In Mississippi a young black man is found hanging from a tree. Is it suicide or murder? That's today on BURDEN OF PROOF.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEWIS MYERS, GENERAL COUNSEL, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: What we know now, that he was lured from the home by a particular young woman. And the second thing, he was taken for all practical purposes, hostage. We believe that he was either, perhaps, strangled -- and if he wasn't strangled, that some other types of force was used on him.

DR. WERNER SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: There is no foundation at this point, that I can see, where there is any reason to believe that this is an act perpetrated by somebody else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is BURDEN OF PROOF, with Roger Cossack and Greta Van Susteren.

COSSACK: Hello and welcome to BURDEN OF PROOF. Greta is off today.

Since the night Raynard Johnson's father pulled into the driveway and found his teenage son hanging from a tree in their front yard, the Johnson family has called on authorities to investigate a lynching. Along with the Reverend Jesse Jackson, they met with Attorney General Janet Reno, who assured them that the Justice Department would pursue every lead.

But a new autopsy report commissioned by the family comes to the same conclusion as the official report: it was suicide and not murder.

Joining us from Detroit is medical examiner Dr. Werner Spitz. From Boston, we're joined by former FBI special agent Clint Van Zandt. And from Chicago, we're joined by Gary Flowers, national field director for the Rainbow/Push Coalition. Here in Washington, Lucy Miller (ph), former federal prosecutor Steve Berk, and Kinsey Banzet (ph). And in the back, Jeremy Wilkins (ph) and Chip Slate (ph).

Clint, I want to go right to you initially on this. As you know, young Raynard Johnson was found hanging, and around his neck was a belt that the family claims wasn't his. How would the FBI go about investigating that piece of evidence?

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, you know, it's something they're going to look at, Roger. I would suggest that there are agents who have put pictures of that belt and they have probably already hit every store within a 50 or 100 mile area -- most of the popular stores where young people like the victim would be -- trying to identify, do you sell belts like this? Have you sold any recently? They're going back, going through credit card receipts. So they're going to find something like that.

But, you know, as we talked in your program last week, Roger, my three kids, when they were growing up, they had clothing and shirts and ties and belts and shoes. It was amazing the amount of clothes that we would find that weren't specifically our child's clothing. So that piece of evidence in and of itself does not suggest homicide, suicide or accident. As you know, this is going to be kind of a three-part investigation. As Dr. Spitz will comment, we're looking at the forensics: Is there anything forensically that suggests there was anyone else involved in this young man's death.

Secondly, what I used to do on a job, and what FBI and the police are doing right now, is looking at the behavioral component. You're looking at the victim's background, you're looking at anything that happened within the last 48 hours in his life. Then there's the investigative component where you're out talking to people on the street, people who knew him.

And whether that computer had been in the house 24 hours or not, that was an absolute critical piece of evidence. I've heard people suggest it can't be a suicide because there was no note. Well, Roger, I'm not going to tell you murder, suicide or accident because I'm not right there working the investigation. But I can tell you that in suicides, as an FBI agent, we only found about 20 percent of suicides would have an actual suicide note. So that in and of itself doesn't rule it out.

And lastly, there's been a suggestion by the Reverend Jackson that the FBI lost an audio tape, that it was somehow mysteriously disappeared and that compromises the investigation. And my knowledge, what I've learned about the case is that that tape is actually in the FBI laboratory in Washington being examined.

So both sides, if there is a side -- and we shouldn't have them, Roger -- we're trying to determine the cause of death. Whether we're white, black, green or yellow, we've got to be working this case together and we've got to be very careful there's not inflammatory rhetoric that says homicide or suicide until we get to the facts and make a determination what happened to that young man.

COSSACK: Gary Flowers, Reverend Jackson has called this a lynching. Your organization has even referred to it as murder. But yet two autopsies now have concluded that it was a suicide. In fact, one of the autopsies was commissioned by Raynard Johnson's own family. Is your position changed now because of the new autopsy, or the second autopsy? GARY FLOWERS, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Absolutely not. The Rainbow/Push Coalition, along with the family, is insistent that Raynard Johnson, an affable, happy-go-lucky, smart, intelligent, athletic young man, one, did not have a reason to take his own life. But on the other hand, there are a myriad of possibilities and leads that we are asking the Justice Department and local law enforcement to pursue that suggest homicide. And so, on behalf of the family and on Reverend Jackson and the Rainbow/Push Coalition, we will not cease even if that leads to exhumation of the body and perhaps a third autopsy.

COSSACK: Gary, the evidence so far contained within the autopsy reports do not contain -- does not contain the following evidence. It does not contain indication of a struggle, there's no broken bones, there is no indication that he was in a fight, that somebody abducted him. In fact, the part, as I understand it, he left the house that he was in and then later on was found dead, but yet there was somebody else who was within the house who never heard a struggle, who never saw -- who never heard him taken or in any way tied up. When he was found, his hands weren't bound, his legs weren't bound. What evidence do you have that would indicate this is anything other than an unfortunate suicide other than that horrible feeling that you might have?

FLOWERS: We have overwhelming circumstantial evidence that points to someone other than Raynard taking his life.

COSSACK: Can you tell me what that circumstantial evidence is, Gary?

FLOWERS: First of all, the physics of the matter doesn't add up. Raynard -- 6-feet tall, 170 pounds. In order to hang himself on that tree, if he stood on the flower bed, he would be taller than the branch below which he hanged.

COSSACK: But the autopsy had him at 5'9" Gary, not 6-foot -- both autopsies.

FLOWERS: Secondly, his feet were on the ground, knees slightly bent. It is highly unlikely that a young man would not struggle to get away from a hanging, self-inflicted, if his feet are on the ground.

COSSACK: But what I'm suggesting to you, there's no evidence whatsoever that he was in a struggle from both autopsies. Are you suggesting that the autopsies are incomplete?

FLOWERS: No, what I'm suggesting is that there are many ways to immobilize a person so that there is no struggle.

COSSACK: And could you tell me what those ways are that you could do this. And, honestly, I don't mean to be trying to attack you in this, I'm as confused as you are and I just -- I dearly want to know what that could be.

FLOWERS: What we know is that the belt was not his. What we know is that Raynard was full of life, planning to attend a Juneteenth celebration the next day with his brother, planning to attend a family reunion the next week, had all to live for: starting on the football team, top 5 percent of students in the nation.

What we do not know is whose belt it was. What we do not know is why were there suspicious activity on the road just west of the Johnson home on the nights preceding June the 16th, 2000, and why was there suspicious activity that night, as noted by dogs barking and neighbors noticing unusual traffic.

COSSACK: Gary, we have also understood that there have been callers, telephone callers to the family that have given indications that they know how he was killed rather than suicide. Can you tell us about that information?

FLOWERS: Yes, we have established a hotline in Hattiesburg, Mississippi and leads are coming in. And as they do, we are turning them over to the FBI and we're asking for a full and thorough investigation. After all, the American dream promises us equal protection under the law for all citizens. And so, therefore, the Rainbow/Push Coalition has offered a $25,000 reward for people of good conscience, white and black, to come forward and to give information that would lead to the arrest and the conviction of those responsible for the death of Raynard Johnson.

COSSACK: All right, let's take a break.

Up next, could two autopsy reports hide the real story of what happened in Mississippi? Stay with us.

(BEGIN LEGAL BRIEF)

According to city statistics, the number of legal claims accusing New York City police officers of using excessive force dropped by 26 percent during the past year. The New York Civil Liberties Union says fewer claims do not mean less police misconduct.

Source: Associated Press

(END LEGAL BRIEF)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JESSE JACKSON: There is no forensic evidence that he committed suicide, and on the narrow end of the investigation you will assume homicide until you can prove suicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSSACK: Welcome back.

Dr. Spitz, we have asked you to examine both of the autopsies in this case and you have. The Reverend Jackson says you must assume homicide until you can prove suicide. You've seen the autopsy reports.

SPITZ: Yes, I've seen...

COSSACK: Does it prove suicide?

SPITZ: No. Please let me tell you, I have been in the job of determining cause and manner of death for very many years. I must have certified 120,00 to 150,000 cases in my career and I'm still doing it. Three pathologist here, the first pathologist who did the autopsy on behalf of the state, the pathologist hired by the family, and I tell you that this is a suicidal death.

Why do they tell you? and how do they tell you? The pathologist who did the autopsy for the family does not just say this was a suicide, he says this was a self-inflicted situation, this was a situation where he hung himself, this was a situation of suicide, and no other people assisted, which means he repeats four times the same idea. Why does he do that? Because he's so certain of his determination.

And I must say that I agree with him. Take, for example, the fact that the noose climbs up behind the right ear. Two people, one person strangling, the other person being strangled would be on the same level. Why would the noose then go up? Why does it go up is because it goes to the limb of the tree.

You need about five to six pounds of pressure per square inch to close, to shut-off the blood supply to the brain. A person standing on the ground with an attachment to a limb of a tree above him, bending his knees will very easily sustain the noose around the neck tight enough to obstruct the blood flow to the brain. And furthermore, die within a matter of minutes or even less than that from asphyxiation of the brain for lack of oxygen.

COSSACK: Dr. Spitz, let me ask you this question, is there any way that you know of that Raynard Johnson could have been -- let me give you this hypothetical -- lured from the house he was inside and, in some way, crept up upon, and perhaps injected with some kind of a drug that would have made him unable to fight back, and then others could have taken advantage of him and perpetrated this crime. Is that a scenario that in anyway could play out?

SPITZ: There is absolutely no evidence of any of that. There is no injuries of any sort to this body, there is no evidence of any injections, there is no evidence of any poisons, there is no evidence of anything that remotely suggests that.

COSSACK: All right, let me go now to Gary Flowers.

Gary, how do you respond to that?

FLOWERS: What most disturbs the family and the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, is that the hastily drawn conclusion of suicide was done so in an inductive sense. Before three hours had elapsed, the tape around the tree had been taken down, thus compromising a would-be crime scene.

The next day, the coroner approaches the house and determines suicide before there is an autopsy. What we ask, and what the family ask, is merely not to draw hastily drawn conclusions, but rather to use a deductive process, where you examine all of the facts and then let the facts lead you to a conclusion.

VAN ZANDT: Which I think is what, you know, the FBI will be doing in this investigation, Roger.

FLOWERS: We applaud that now. However, a would-be crime scene was compromised because it was not done so from the start. And because of that, justice may not be served in this case.

VAN ZANDT: Gary, you make one of the better cases for a potential suicide. And again, let me clear the deck on one thing, as an investigator, you don't assume anything. You don't assume a homicide, suicide, an accident. I go into a case and I don't care what anybody says, it's a clean sheet of paper until all the facts are in. And I think that's what the FBI is doing.

FLOWERS: And we agree, however that was not...

VAN ZANDT: And number two, Gary, you make the point -- you made the point earlier in the program that how could a young man hang himself? There should be some sign of struggle. And I agree. And, to me, that is significant, and I think Dr. Spitz could reply on that obviously. But the lack of a struggle at the site of the hanging suggests someone perhaps who wanted that to happen, meaning the victim himself.

And I think, as an investigator, that's something I would have to consider. And your point is logical to me in that area.

FLOWERS: Well, one thing that is still very curious is, if you assume, for the sake argument, that Raynard took his own life, that is a pecan tree, and anyone who knows pecan trees knows that you have spores that comes off of a pecan tree. There's been no scientific evidence so far that there are spores under his nails or that there were spores on his clothes.

VAN ZANDT: Why would there have to be spores, I guess, Gary, if one simply looped the belt over a branch or something?

FLOWERS: Have you been to the tree?

VAN ZANDT: Well, no, I haven't, and that's why I'm asking you why it would have to be under the nails.

FLOWERS: And having been there, having been there, if you stand in that flower bed, you have to touch the tree at some point at the angle in which he was positioned.

COSSACK: All right, let's jump in here -- let me jump in here now and take a break. Up next, the federal investigation into Raynard Johnson's death: What challenges do FBI agents face? and what challenges do prosecutors face? Stay with us.

(BEGIN Q&A)

Q: Legislation was introduced this week that requires employers to tell workers if they are monitoring their electronic communications at work. What percentage of major U.S. companies conduct this monitoring?

A: Seventy-three percent.

Source: The American Management Association.

(END Q&A)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSSACK: We are back talking about the terrible mystery of the death of Raynard Johnson in Mississippi.

Steve, I want to talk to you now as a prosecutor. In this situation where you have, for all intents and purposes, a mystery, where you have two different sides, each putting forth to the prosecution what they believe happened. How do you go about acting as prosecutor in this situation? working with the FBI? and yet working with the family?

STEVE BERK, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, look, it's a truly tragic event when a young person dies like this. And it is a mystery at this point. I mean, facts seem to be pointing one way, which is perhaps self-inflicted, maybe a suicide, but maybe an accident. There are, as Gary has pointed out, other facts that may prove something else.

But right now it is a mystery. And what the prosecutor needs to do is deal with facts. The prosecutor needs to put on facts in a case that will be able to be presented to a jury that are admissible evidence. And so what you're trying to do is build those facts up.

At this point, yes, they want to be supportive of the family, comforting of the family. They are a victim of something here. But the prosecutor's role at this point is not major. They're waiting for the FBI. They're waiting for the state prosecutors to come up with a solution, if you will, to the mystery, one way or the other.

COSSACK: Gary...

FLOWERS: Let me say that, first of all, you're right. The facts should lead us to a conclusion. But the existence of a racially intolerant climate in that region, the physics of his hanging or being placed on that tree, and the suspicious activity in and around the Johnson home on the nights preceding his death gives a context that the facts should be weighed. And so...

COSSACK: Well, Gary, I -- let me just jump in and say I agree obviously that the facts should be weighed. And I don't think there's anybody around here that I can see that would ever argue that this does not deserve a complete and thorough investigation. But what I'm concerned about is that the statement of your group that concludes that a murder was committed here, and uses the word lynching, which is a terrible word, and an awful event. And, are you presumptuous in coming to that and saying that?

FLOWERS: No, I think that the facts speak for themselves. It is factual that between 1987 and 1993, 48 people were found hanging in Mississippi jails in law enforcement custody. It is a fact in the last 18-months there have been seven mysterious deaths in Mississippi, three listed as suicide by hanging.

Given that racial intolerance and bigotry has expressed on a bridge, less than a quarter of a mile from the house that read "kill all niggers." This sign and this graffiti was on the bridge until Raynard's death. It was only whitewashed afterwards. We're making the point that these facts should've led the coroner and local law enforcement initially to not draw the conclusion of suicide immediately.

COSSACK: But Gary, and I -- and perhaps I would agree with that argument, that perhaps a quick jump to suicide was made. But now in light of two autopsies.

FLOWERS: But there are detrimental results to that hastily drawn conclusion.

COSSACK: But now we've got two autopsies which indicate completely...

FLOWERS: That is that a crime scene, a would-be crime scene has been compromised, and perhaps evidence has been destroyed. So it's not just that there isn't...

COSSACK: Perhaps, but, Gary, there is two autopsies that have concluded in good faith, and I think you will admit that, that there is no evidence to indicate contrary to that. In light of that, do you still think that it is the reasonable thing to do...

FLOWERS: The family believes, and we support them in their belief that Raynard Johnson did not meet his death by suicide.

COSSACK: And I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today. Thank you to all of our guests, thank you for watching.

Today on CNN's "TALKBACK LIVE," eating well for optimum health. That's at 3:00 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific.

And we'll be back tomorrow with another edition of BURDEN OF PROOF. We'll see you then.

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