Crossfire

Should Gore Be Vacationing While Bush Pulls Ahead in the Polls?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Live from the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia, a special edition of CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, George W. Bush is on the road, and Al Gore is on vacation. But with new polls giving Bush a double-digit lead, can Gore really afford to take time off?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Philadelphia, CROSSFIRE.

On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Mary Matalin.

In the CROSSFIRE, Democratic National Committee Chairman Ed Rendell, former mayor of Philadelphia; and Haley Barbour, former chairman of the Republican National Committee and a Bush adviser.

MARY MATALIN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, and welcome to our very special edition of CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from CNN's headquarters at the Republican National Convention at long and glorious last.

Governor George W. Bush and running mate Dick Cheney hit the road today, heading -- headed for their official nominations in Philadelphia. En route, they plan to hit six battleground states, none of them won by Republicans since Bush's father in his 1988 victory.

Bush kicks off the convention, according to a new CNN/"TIME" poll with a double-digit lead over Gore, 56-41 percent. The platform committee is already in Philadelphia, wrapping up their work on the party's philosophical document, which predictably included the quadrennial abortion battle.

Meanwhile, Al Gore left the campaign trail to vacation with his family and mull over his vice presidential selection.

So tonight, they're finally off on campaign 2000. Should Al Gore be vacationing while Bush is pulling ahead? And will his convention accelerate or put the brakes on Bush's "big mo'"?

Bill and I will be in the City of Brotherly Love.

PRESS: Don't take it too far.

All right, Haley Barbour, good evening.

HALEY BARBOUR, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: Hey, Bill, how you doing?

PRESS: Good. I've got to say, you two guys look really nice up there in your personal sky box.

BARBOUR: Sky box is the word, too.

PRESS: Haley, I have to tell you. As long as I've been around politics, I still get a kick out of the spin machine, and boy it's been working overtime today. The spin today is that the Republicans softened their image by softening the platform. I took a look at it, Haley...

ED RENDELL, DNC CHAIRMAN: You guys, I've lost sound.

PRESS: ... Haley, you dropped one provision that said that you should abolish -- we should abolish the Department of Education, but there's no change on guns, there's no change on choice, and there's no change on gays in the military. Haley, this is still the same old extreme right-wing nonsense, isn't it?

BARBOUR: Well, of course, Bill, anytime you talk about what Republicans want to do, like when we wanted to balance the budget and cut taxes and reform welfare, you thought that was extreme nonsense, too.

You know, the fact of the matter is that our platform has stayed relatively like it has been for years. There are a lot of new issues that are addressed because there are a lot of new things that are very important to the American people that candidly weren't at issue four or eight years ago, about the role of government, about tort reform, about government regulation, particularly excess regulation of the technology industries in our country.

But this platform is pretty non-controversial. But regardless, the big thing the American people are looking at, as they do in every presidential election, are the candidates. And what they see in George Bush is a compassionate conservative, somebody who is -- whose record in Texas has been based on sound conservative fundamentals, but somebody who very clearly cares about making sure that no child is left behind, that everybody has the opportunity to come into the middle class. And he's proposed...

PRESS: Well...

BARBOUR: ... policies that do that. And that's why he's got this big lead in the polls.

PRESS: Well, Haley, we'll be talking about the candidates, but let's stick to the platform for just a second. And I admit this is not the only issue, but it's an issue on which the party just can't seem to budge, and that is the issue of choice.

And I want to read you something that Congressman Tom Campbell, of course is the Republican candidate for Senate in California, the largest state in the union, said today about your platform debate on choice.

He said, quote:

"This is the party of Christie Whitman, it's that party of Colin Powell, it's the party of George Pataki and Tom Ridge and Paul Celucci. This is the party of dozens of pro-choice members of Congress, hundreds of pro-choice legislators and millions of pro- choice voters."

But if you look at the platform, it's the party of Henry Hyde and Phyllis Schlafly. Why, Haley, why do you listen to those two people over and over again?

BARBOUR: Well, you know, it's interesting, Bill, what you talked about. We do have a large number of pro-choice Republican governors, senators, congressman who are very popular...

PRESS: But they're not reflected in the party.

BARBOUR: ... who are very popular, very popular, effective, very influential in our party. They get the overwhelming support of pro- life Republicans, same way that our pro-life Republicans get the overwhelming support of pro-choice Republicans.

But there's a big difference here between the parties. Albert Gore is not pro-choice, he's pro-abortion. He is for abortion on demand, for any reason or no reason, at any time in pregnancy, without any limitation or restriction whatsoever and paid for by the taxpayers if necessary.

There is no abortion that Albert Gore thinks should not take place, ninth month, sex selection, color of the eyes. Now we're not a pro-abortion party, and I don't think most Americans agree with Albert Gore on this.

PRESS: Haley, no matter how you define it, the difference isn't the different between the two parties that one party says that that decision is for a woman and her doctor to make and the other party says that that's for a judge to make or a legislator to make or a congressman or a senator to make. One party says -- give the power to the women, and the other takes it away. Isn't that the basic difference?

BARBOUR: Bill, I've lost the sound, but I was just going to say this to you. You know, it's interesting how you don't ever like to talk about the pro-life Democrats, like the mayor -- or the governor of this great state, Bob Casey. You've got pro-life Democratic Congressman from all over Pennsylvania, from Michigan, Ohio.

I can remember when Albert Gore was a pro-life congressman. Back 20 years ago when Dick Cheney had a 100 percent pro-life voting record, Al Gore had a 94 percent pro-life voting record. Now of course that was before Albert Gore realized you couldn't make it in the Democratic Party unless you were pro-abortion...

PRESS: OK... BARBOUR: ... but, you know, there are a lot of people in the Democratic Party who are pro-life, and they're good Democrats. I don't criticize them.

PRESS: But we don't criticize them either, Haley.

We're going to take a break here because we want to fix the little problem we're having with Mayor Rendell's sound so he can hear us and participate here.

So let's take a break. We'll fix that while we're off the air.

And when we come back, is it true that Dick Cheney really conspired to drive up gas prices this year?

More CROSSFIRE coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, live tonight from Philadelphia and the Republican National Convention.

This is the City of Brotherly Love, but there is still a lot of room for brotherly debate. And a lot of debate tonight centers still around Dick Cheney, George Bush's running mate, and the latest charges by the Gore campaign today that oil executive Cheney actually conspired to help raise oil prices and gas prices was average Americans were suffering. Is their any truth there, or is that over the line? Let's get back to our brother debate with Haley Barbour, former chairman of the Republican National Committee, and Mayor Ed Rendell, former mayor the city of Philadelphia, and now Democratic National chairman -- Mary.

MATALIN: Mary, we love your city. Thank you for inviting us. And thank you for being with us tonight.

And before we get to that vicious, coordinated assault on Bush's selection, let me ask you about your candidate. I'm sure you didn't miss that 16-point lead we talked about Bush having earlier in the show. But even more significant in that poll was the fact that one- third, 33 percent of Democrats polled thought there should be another nominee besides Albert Gore. How are you going to win the swing votes, the independents, the moderates, if you can't pin down your own party?

RENDELL: First of all, Mary, I think the polls should close down for the year. Less than a week ago, there were six polls in a three- day period that had this a dead-even race. And the "Time"/CNN poll and the "USA Today" poll both showed that we were moving to take back infinitely more of our base, from 77 to 87. You tell me what's happened in the last eight days to change that. I think the polls are just out of control and they are not reflecting anything that's happening with people.

The only thing I can think of is, did Governor Bush get a bounce because he announced Dick Cheney as his running mate -- because the polls seven days ago showed that we were gaining back a ton of our base. And that's ridiculous to say that we are having trouble with 33 percent of our base. But look, all of this is just speculation. It's all insider-based polling. They're all Haley and Ed. None of it matters, because the only poll that counts is on election day. And I would not say that if we were ahead in the polls.

MATALIN: All of that -- all of that is true, Mayor. But something did happen and it's that people are starting to pay attention for the first time. And this is the kickoff of the general election.

RENDELL: Well, you tell me what happened in the last seven days, Mary, to produce a change?

MATALIN: A spectacular selection by George W. Bush. Let me move on to...

RENDELL: A spectacular selection. Well, I want to just respond to what Haley said for a little bit. Haley said that George Bush is being shown to people as a very compassionate, caring person, someone who cares about kids. Well, George Bush can tell us he is compassionate, but the time has come for him to show us. And the first chance he had to show us, he picked Dick Cheney for vice president.

Now, this is the Dick Cheney who one of 10 congressman to vote against Headstart, one of the best educational programs ever for kids, one of nine congressman to vote against funding childhood immunization. So I would submit to you that George Bush is compassionate in his rhetoric, but not in his deeds and not in his actions.

MATALIN: Well, Mayor, Mayor, please...

RENDELL: Mary, you can't get around that. This fellow was supposed to be compassionate. He was supposed to be compassionate.

MATALIN: I would submit to you, Mayor, we're not -- Mayor, I would submit to you that the things that you most objected in Dick Cheney's 20-year-old voting comported completely with Albert Gore's. But let's get back to this platform.

RENDELL: No, no, no. Albert Gore never...

MATALIN: Can we...

RENDELL: No, no, Mary, you can't say that.

MATALIN: One-hundred percent -- 94 percent by National Rights, 74 percent NRA...

(CROSSTALK)

RENDELL: I'm not going to let you get away with that. On immunization, Al Gore always supported funding for immunization for children. On Headstart, he always supported Headstart. MATALIN: Mayor Rendell, can I...

(CROSSTALK)

BARBOUR: Let's have the fairness component here.

PRESS: Go ahead, Haley.

BARBOUR: And the truth is, Dick Cheney voted against greatly increasing Headstart spending at a time when we had a huge deficit an we were in a recession. Now you can say that he should have been for a bigger increase. But we shouldn't say that he voted against Headstart. He voted against a big increase.

RENDELL: He had a choice. No.

BARBOUR: It's like Clinton is going to veto Social Security relief by vetoing the bill that says that we are going to do away with the Social Security tax increase of 1993. I'm not going to tell you that Bill Clinton is against people on Social Security.

RENDELL: This is all rhetoric. Dick Cheney had a chance to vote to expand Headstart to cover hundreds of thousands of more American children, And he voted no.

MATALIN: Mayor...

RENDELL: He had a chance to bring immunization programs, so kids don't die of childhood diseases. He voted no.

MATALIN: Mayor, you're just -- you know what. With respect -- and you're a great politician -- you're just not going tag Dick Cheney with being a right-wing extremist. But you're doing a good effort...

RENDELL: Mary, can I ask you a question?

MATALIN: No...

(CROSSTALK)

MATALIN: I'm moving on, Mayor. You're doing a good job not talking about your guy.

RENDELL: "Business Week," do you consider that to be a liberal publication?

MATALIN: Can I move on and ask you one question about your candidate?

(CROSSTALK)

BARBOUR: Put me in for considering it a liberal publication.

RENDELL: "Business Week" said that Dick Cheney's voting record was as conservative as Jesse Helms'. MATALIN: Well, and were conservatives -- as George W. Bush said, he's proud to be a conservative, proud to have a conservative running mate. Let's talk about your...

(CROSSTALK)

MATALIN: Let's talk about the platform, OK?

RENDELL: OK.

MATALIN: Quote -- this is from this platform you so object to -- "At a time when the nation felt betrayed by misconduct in high office, the Republican Congress was funded with gravity and high purpose. We applaud those members who did their duty to conscience and Constitution."

I don't think I need to tell you what we're referring to. What are you going to do with this dignity deficit that your president has imposed on his vice president?

RENDELL: Well, first of all, the President is extremely popular today. You know that. You read the same polls that you just quoted to me. I think the people of America made their judgment on the impeachment, which was the grave response by the Republican Party when they kicked the living daylights out of the Republican Congress at the polls in 1998. So, the American people have already spoken about impeachment and what they thought of Mr. McCallum and all of the rest of them. So, that's a closed issue.

(CROSSTALK)

RENDELL: I also wanted to say one thing about the platform. And Bill brought this up in his question to Haley, and I couldn't respond because I couldn't hear. You know, what George has done with the platform, was he made the easy things more compassionate and more moderate, but the tough one, a piece of the platform that says we're against abortion even in the case of rape and incest, George Bush didn't have the guts to take on the right wring, the religious right of his party and change that. So tell me, Mary, how compassionate he is, and how moderate he is.

MATALIN: Can I ask you something, mayor? Please, let me ask, you answer, OK?

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: It's a novel idea here.

MATALIN: You when, I say the dignity deficit, I'm not just talking about the pescadillos of the current president. I'm talking about administrations where dignity is the watchword. One of the parts of the vicious coordinated attack on Dick Cheney to get to Bush was to attack his father, say he was a throwback to his father. Today, George Bush said...

RENDELL: I couldn't respond because I couldn't hear. What George Bush has done with the platform is he made the easiest things more compassionate and moderate but the tough ones, a piece of the platform that says we are against abortion even in case of rape an incest George Bush didn't have the guts to take ton right wing the religious right and his party and change that. So tell me, Mary, how compassionate that is and how moderate he is.

PRESS: Haley, a quick response there.

RENDELL: Sure.

BARBOUR: I was just going to say, look it is not true that I pulled the plug on Mayor Rendell's audio, and I don't care what anybody says.

RENDELL: He did it. He did it.

BARBOUR: And i don't care what anybody says. I do have to take issue with him on this. When he talks about George Bush on this fails on compassionate conservatism, you know, George Bush said, when was elected governor, that poor children in Texas's schools weren't doing well enough and he was going to make that a high priority -- and particularly in the first four grades, so that kids, poor kids could have a chance to get a good education.

This week, the Clinton administration announced that the state that led the country in improvement in education scores among first and fourth graders is none other than Texas. And African-American students and with Hispanic students --

(CROSSTALK)

RENDELL: I want to ask Haley a question.

PRESS: So do I. So do I, mayor, believe it or not.

(CROSSTALK)

RENDELL: Which state led the nation in another category, the most uninsured number of children in the United States of America.

PRESS: Texas.

RENDELL: Texas led this union in the most uninsured children in the sate.

PRESS: Haley, believe it or not, Haley, I've got a question in here, a couple of quick ones.

RENDELL: Are we letting you ask questions, Bill Press?

PRESS: Yes, still. About Dick Cheney, I want to come back to Headstart for just a second, because that was very, very slick there, Haley. But the budget for Headstart at the time that Dick Cheney voted against it was one billion dollars. He also voted at the same time for an $800-plus billion tax cut of Ronald Reagan's, and a $600- plus billion defense budget. Now, you are telling me, out of $640 billion and $830 billion, he doesn't think we could afford one measly billion for Headstart, Haley? Don't give me that nonsense.

BARBOUR: No, in fact, if you look at the 12 years of Republicans being there the White House, Headstart spending did go up almost every year, but it never went up enough to suit...

RENDELL: Not thanks to Dick Cheney.

BARBOUR: It never went up enough to suit Bill Press. It never went up to suit Teddy Kennedy. And I'll tell you what. It won't ever go up enough for the left to say that we are spending all that we can effectively spend.

(CROSSTALK)

BARBOUR: Let me answer that. Headstart should go up until every eligible American child is in it, period.

PRESS: OK.

BARBOUR: So this is saying to you that Hillary Clinton had on immunization -- Ed was talking about immunization. I remember when the Clinton administration said we are going federalize all the immunization programs. And it was a great failure.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: I want to jump in here again with another question. I want to ask you about this so-called dignity deficit, because Cheney was out there again, saying we are going to restore dignity to Washington. You know, when Dick Cheney was defense secretary, he was holding briefings at the Pentagon for Republican contributors who gave the RNC $5,000. You know, Bill Cohen has never did that as defense secretary. Is that what Dick Cheney is talking about when he says restore dignity to the White House? And how about Iran Contra under Ronald Reagan. How about Irangate under George Bush. How about Ed Meese? How about Caspar Weinberger?

Is that we're talking about when we say dignity back to the White House, Haley.

BARBOUR: Well, I'm going to tell you what.

RENDELL: Go get him, Bill.

BARBOUR: Bill, you can take that as far as you want to take it, but then you ask the American people, what did they think of the dignity of the office, and the way the presidency was treated under Ronald Reagan? And what do they think now? And you can deny Clinton fatigue to your heart's content, Bill, but you just whistling past the graveyard.

PRESS: Well then, let me ask you this, what does Monica Lewinsky have to do with Al Gore? And why can't you get over Monica Lewinsky?

BARBOUR: Frankly, I can get over Monica Lewinsky, Bill. I have... PRESS: Maybe your candidates can't.

BARBOUR: But the issue is not Monica Lewinsky. The issue is whether you're willing to trust the American people enough to tell them the truth, and they want a president who will tell them the truth. George Bush will be that kind of president.

MATALIN: Can I ask you something, mayor? Please, let me ask, you answer, OK?

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: It's a novel idea here.

MATALIN: You when, I say the dignity deficit, I'm not just talking about the pecadilloes of the current president. I'm talking about administrations where dignity is the watchword. One of the parts of the vicious coordinated attack on Dick Cheney to get to Bush was to attack his father, say he was a throwback to his father. Today, George Bush said, "I'm proud to be George Bush's son, and people are going to hear it at the convention, how proud I am to be George Bush's son."

Did you really think in your coordinated attack that voters would object to a son asking advice of a president of integrity like George Bush?

RENDELL: Look, George Bush is a fine man. President George Bush is a fine man. Everyone agrees with that, but he had a failed presidency because he didn't have a clue to dealing with the real problems that confronted the American people. He built up the deficit. He had people out of work in record numbers. We had interest rates that were going through the roof. And that's a fact. Haley can laugh all he wants, but that's the fact.

(CROSSTALK)

RENDELL: I didn't interrupt you. I didn't interrupt you.

BARBOUR: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

RENDELL: I want to talk to you about truth for a second. We have this business about how the president or the vice president don't tell the truth. Well, does anybody focus on what George Bush and Tom Ridge just did in the past three weeks? Tom Ridge, according to his own statement, withdrew from the vice presidential sweepstakes on July 5, told Governor Bush he did not want to be considered.

PRESS: Hurry up, mayor, we're almost out of time here.

RENDELL: All right. Governor Bush and Tom Ridge then perpetuated a myth for the next three weeks that he was in fact a serious candidate for the vice president.

PRESS: Quick last word, Haley. BARBOUR: Hey look, the Democrats have got a great chairman in Ed Rendell. We really appreciate him bringing us to Philadelphia. And look, Ed, I've been chairman when we finished second in the presidential race. It ain't that bad.

MATALIN: Well, here's the good news, guys. Thank you, Mayor Rendell. Thank you, Chairman Barbour. They will continue their chat in cnn.com/CROSSFIRE after the show.

And Bill and I will be back after this quick break, as always, for our closing comments.

And don't forget to mark Sunday night for another special edition of CROSSFIRE on your special convention coverage from CNN.

We'll be right back. And thanks, guys.

PRESS: Thank you, guys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Now you can find out what's coming up in the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for a daily e-mail sent free of charge telling you what we are planning for that night. Log onto cnn.com/CROSSFIRE to sign up for daily CROSSFIRE e-mail.

MATALIN: Well, the two chairmans, Chairman Rendell of the Democratic National Committee, and former Chairman Haley Barbour of the Republican National Committee and former Chairman Haley Barbour of the Republican National Committee are making their way over to the chatroom, CNN.com/CROSSFIRE for more of the same. Hope you can get a word in edgewise.

Bill an I will be here Sunday night for a special edition before the kickoff of the convention on Monday. CROSSFIRE at normal time, 7:30 Eastern, and I can't wait. And you know what else I can't wait?

PRESS: On CNN.

MATALIN: On CNN, complete election coverage. I am really proud of this. Let me get that in again. We are covering more than anything else, an it's so wonderful. Here's what I really where I have to tell you, how I feel, OK.

PRESS: I'm ready. I'm ready.

MATALIN: All right. this is my sixth convention. Everybody here feels so good about this ticket, this platform, this prognosis. It's going to be a great campaign. I just haven't had felt an ambience like this in six conventions.

PRESS: Well, Mary, I want to say that this is your week, this is your convention. I hope you have a very happy, a very exciting, and a hugely unsuccessful event.

MATALIN: I knew. I knew it was coming. PRESS: From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

MATALIN: And from the right, I'm Mary Matalin. Thank you for joining us, and join us Sunday night for another special edition of CROSSFIRE.

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