TalkBack Live

Will the Real Reform Party Please Stand up?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Reform. Reform. Reform.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: This is the Reform Party. And so is this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Go, Pat, go!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: A two-headed political beast breathing life into twin raucous conventions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sick of these of these (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And potentially two claimants to the presidential nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT BUCHANAN (REF), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the other side, they would walk down the street to sit around in some room to talk to each other. I think they have just about packed it in.

JOHN HAGELIN (REF), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This party has never been healthier. It has been undergoing a slow and painful disease. It has fallen under the Buchanan candidacy to a low.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Can the Reform Party keep its heart and soul intact, or is it being hopelessly torn asunder?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) No, don't you push me, Mister.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

Well, what is going on in the Reform Party these days. Compared to other political conventions, this one seems, well, a bit out of order. A short time ago Reform presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, who claims to be the party's ultimate nominee, named Los Angeles teacher and political activist Ezola Foster as his running mate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUCHANAN: I have often -- and perhaps the metaphor is inapposite thought our about as the French Foreign Legion of American politics. We don't care what party you came from, where you've been or who you are running away from. If you want to join out and look out for America first, American sovereignty, traditional values, faith and family and country, come with us. You are welcome in our party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: With us right now, though, is the other Reform presidential candidate, John Hagelin, member of the Ross Perot faction. He claims to be the true Reform Party presidential candidate.

John, welcome to the program.

HAGELIN: Bobbie, it's good to be with you.

BATTISTA: What is going on here? I mean, who is the official nominee of the Reform Party?

HAGELIN: Well, things have pretty much settled down today. Pat Buchanan has taken what he can from the party, namely ballot access in a number of states, and he has set up Buchanan Reform. It looks like a separate party. The longstanding Reform Party leadership, the party builders, the grassroots supports base, all of the strong states, are still with the Reform Party and I expect to receive their nomination this evening.

BATTISTA: Let me get your reaction to Pat Buchanan picking Ezola Foster as his running mate a few moments ago.

HAGELIN: She could be excellent. But the thing is, on what party are they running? If they have no ballot access, if they have no federal funds, how far will they get?

BATTISTA: As I understand it, Pat Buchanan got more delegates. Therefore it is a matter of votes or a matter of numbers. Is that true? And if that is the case, then why isn't he the delegate -- I mean nominee?

HAGELIN: I think we should clear that up. Very good. Firstly, he does not have the delegates, truly credential representatives from the different states. He has what are called Buchanan "brigaders" who filled in for the delegates who basically have left that show and have set up the true Reform Party Convention.

And by the way, although he's hesitant to admit this, the Reform Party's presidential nominee is elected by the American people. There's a popular primary taking place right now that 900,000 Reform Party members are voting in. Buchanan has lost that vote. I have a commanding lead in the popular vote. And he's attempting to rescind or hide the results of that primary. That is efforts to throw out the popular vote and to corrupt the vote with a half a million in eligible, long-term Buchanan donors is what has upset the party to the extent that he's had to basically grab what he can and leave.

BATTISTA: Who are these ineligible donors? Are these Pat Buchanan followers from the Republican Party, who have just kind of jumped into the Reform Party, but they're not officially members of this party or...

HAGELIN: They haven't even jumped into the Reform Party. These are long-term Buchanan donors back from 1992, back from 1996. To be eligible to compete in the Reform Party primary, the rules are very clear. You've got to be a Reform Party member, or you have to signed ballot petitions to put the party on state ballots. These are neither of those people. They were submitted on a secrecy agreement.

He has refused to participate in an audit of these ineligible names. And that is why the executive committee, the leader body of this party, was forced to disqualify Pat Buchanan from the popular vote about three weeks ago.

BATTISTA: So, who is going to get the $12.5 million in federal matching funds. And if it's inevitably ends up tied up in the court, I'm guessing, do you think you will ever see it?

HAGELIN: The courts ultimately will decide. The FEC has already begun an investigation of what happened Tuesday, meaning the physical overrun of the National Committee meeting by the Buchanan brigades. The legal case, however, seems very clear. That was not a properly credentialed meeting. The convention that's occurring here right now was properly credentialed meeting with representatives from all the states.

It's pretty clear the $12.6 million will stay with the Reform Party and thereby support my candidacy.

BATTISTA: There is more than just money at stake here, though. There's the ideology of the Reform Party, the Reform Party that was started under Ross Perot eight years ago. When we were talking to some audience members a few moments ago, they said, you know, that's their problem now with the Reform Party, they don't know what their platform is.

HAGELIN: Well, that's a very valid complaint. Pat Buchanan has used the party's ballot access in good name to promote what is really a rather right-wing, conservative social agenda and embroiling the party in divisive social issues like abortion. But this was never meant to be a right-wing party. It was supposed to be a mainstream, viable alternative to the Republicans and Democrats, but a party of, by and for the people, not bought and paid for by special interest groups.

Yes, on the Buchanan candidacy, there has been a mass attrition from the party. It has dropped from 20 million votes in 1992 to less than a million of Buchanan today. My candidacy is to stop the hemorrhaging, to reach back out to 20 million Perot voters and beyond them to the 115 million frustrated non-voters who are looking for a reason to vote.

BATTISTA: The original Reform Party platform seems to me to be a little bit closer -- actually a lot closer -- to the Libertarian platform. I'm just curious if you have thought of joining forces with the Libertarian Party, which obviously has a very energetic candidate in Harry Brown.

HAGELIN: You know, it's a very good point, because, in fact, the purposes of my candidacy in this millennial campaign is to forge a powerful coalition of American's leading third parties, the Reform Party, the Natural Law Party and to the extent possible, the Green Party, the Libertarian Party, because I think together we can powerfully challenge the two-party stranglehold on the political process.

Now, what happened here yesterday, when Pat Buchanan took away 25 state-ballot accesses and formed his Buchanan reform movement, the Reform is left with 25 states and ballot access -- the strongest states, like New York and Florida and Washington and Colorado and North Carolina, etcetera. But at the same time, I, with the Natural Law Party's presidential nomination have ballot access in 50 states. And that's why we, as opposed to Buchanan, can mount a very, very powerful third-party challenge.

BATTISTA: What is the Natural Law Party?

HAGELIN: The Natural Law Party I helped found in 1992. It is the fastest-growing party in America by far, with over 1,000 candidates running for federal, state and local offices. It is founded upon the same core ideals of the Reform Party: campaign finance reform, restoring government accountability to the people, fiscal responsibility and fair trade, but it extends those core reforms to include best practices, what's working in the health care field, in education, in crime prevention, in sustainable agriculture, in renewal energy technologies to end our dependence on foreign oil.

As a scientist, my political philosophy is extremely clean. Our government should be about what actually works, not what is bought and paid for by special interest groups.

BATTISTA: How do you run under the banner of two different parties? Or are you going to inevitably dissolve the Natural Law Party, which, like you say, seems to be like the Reform Party?

HAGELIN: Well, you know, it's like the Reform Party, only a broader platform of common-sense solutions that the overwhelming majority of American support, like proven preventative medicine to prevent disease and prevent health costs, reduce health costs. I will appear on many state ballots, most state ballots twice, as a Natural Law Party candidate and a Reform Party candidate. This has never been achieved before in American political history. It puts me in a very powerful position.

This coalition we are talking about, Natural Law, Reform, etcetera, independence parties from different states, is the most powerful coalition ever put forward in our history.

BATTISTA: But if you get on the ballot under both of those party denominations, aren't you splitting your own vote, I mean, couldn't...

HAGELIN: No, both votes count, Bobbie, both votes count for the Hagelin candidacy.

BATTISTA: Let me get you started talking about a couple of issues here. I'm sure people want to know how you feel about, say, for example tax cuts.

HAGELIN: Well, I think I'm the only candidate that can -- well, all candidates will promise tax cuts -- I think I'm the only candidate that can deliver deep and responsible tax cuts while protecting Social Security, while protecting Medicare, because I'm the only candidate talking about cost-effective solutions to costly social problems, like preventative medicine to curve spiraling health cost, like effective crime prevention, and like development of America's abundant clean, renewable energy sources, like wind, solar, biomass, to end our costly dependence on foreign oil.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break. We will of course get Pat Buchanan's side on all of this a little bit later on in the show when we talk to his supporter, former Ross Perot running mate Pat Choate.

As we go to break, please take part in our "TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at CNN.com/TALKBACK: Who do you think the Reform Party candidate should be? is the question today, John Hagelin or Pat Buchanan.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. Let me take some audience questions here.

Monat (ph), go ahead.

MONAT: Yes, I was just wondering on what your stance was on Jesse Ventura? And how does Jesse Ventura fit into the whole Reform Party?

HAGELIN: I hope to get Jesse Ventura's endorsement in the nomination for the Independence Party of Minnesota that he heads. Jesse Ventura is a bit of a hero for me, because he made a lie of the Republican and Democratic spin that a third-party candidate cannot win. And amazingly, he was nowhere in the polls. Three weeks prior to his stunning electoral victory, he had none of the campaign dollars of the Republican and Democratic machines, but he was swept into office on a grassroots brushfire, and it is exactly that sort of grassroots brushfire that I'm beginning to experience today.

BATTISTA: And Eddie has another question about someone who hasn't been seen or heard from in a while.

EDDIE: Will you support the candidacy of Ross Perot if he decides to run?

HAGELIN: Ross Perot, at this point, cannot run by the rules of the party. He had an opportunity to do so about a month ago. And the Reform Party does have its rules, which a good thing. It's not just a show of brute force. Under such a show of brute force, we would be lost to Buchanan right now. It's by sticking to the rules of the party, in fact, that Buchanan has gotten himself disqualified. Now the Buchanan camp, and Pat Choate is likely to say, no, no, their's is the proper convention, his is the rightful nomination, they had more delegates, these were not credentialed delegates, but ultimately, this will be up to the courts to decide, and this case is going to go strongly in our favor.

BATTISTA: Why don't Ross Perot step in and try to straighten out the mess that the party has become?

HAGELIN: Ross Perot has faith in the party rank and file, and I think that faith is well placed. These people, the Reform Party activists, and party builders, will make good decisions, and they just did, by finally disqualifying Pat Buchanan from the primary process and sticking to the rules and the founding principles of this party based upon Democratic reform and government accountability to the people. He has been concerned, of course, that's what's been happening to the party, the mass exodus from the party, under the Buchanan candidacy, but note that all of his supporters and people are actively supporting my candidacy.

BATTISTA: Seth, you have a question.

SETH: I was wondering if you could tell me, when I'm in the voting booth trying to cast my vote for you because I believe in what you say, how I am not wasting my vote on kind of a smaller candidate with maybe 1 percent of the polled voters.

HAGELIN: Very good point. First of all, our standing in the polls, our my standing in the polls, has a lot to do with the fact that nobody has seen me before. This is about to go extremely, extremely well. Secondly, we should know that a third-party vote is not a wasted vote. Win or lose seats, third-party votes are the only votes that have ever accomplished anything. Remember, all of our major Democratic innovations we cherish, the right of women to vote, the abolition of slavery, child-labor laws , worker's compensations, these ideas, and most others, came from third-party movements. If we get five million votes, or even three million votes, that will send the Republicans and Democrats scrambling to co-opt our idea.

So in the marketplace of our ideas, we will win. But to win these ideas, we need to support of the voters. And remember, nobody has voted yet. Jesse Ventura, again, was nowhere three weeks. We have three months, really, to create grassroots brushfire, and it is building.

BATTISTA: Phone call from Kathy in Mississippi.

Kathy, go ahead.

KATHY: Bobbie, hello.

BATTISTA: Yes.

KATHY: Yes, I want to say having been sort of history nut, Pat Buchanan warms my heart. It reminds me of the initiative of the early leaders in our country, and I think what he's doing and breaking the mold, this is what we need in a president. We don't need these people that are clones of other politicians; we need a Pat Buchanan.

BATTISTA: Why do you prefer Pat Bucanhan over John Hagelin.

KATHY: I have a gut feeling about Pat Buchanan. He means what he says. You can see it in his face. He's got integrity. He's got creativity. People like him all around our world. He'd be good for our country.

All right, Kathy, thanks very much.

Mike, question in the audience.

MIKE: I wonder if you have picked a vice presidential candidate yet, and if not, who you are considering.

HAGELIN: It's a very interesting question. According to Reform Party's rules, the vice presidential running mate is elected on the floor of the convention, and that will take place tomorrow. There are a lot of excellent people here who are vying for that vice presidential, not necessarily the big names like Colin Powell, but real American heroes, like Bob Bowman, NASA scientist, a wonderful, wonderful American, and a dynamic advocate for reform, and independent political movements. So there are some very good people here. I'm very keen to see what emerges from the convention tomorrow.

BATTISTA: So you don't have plans to announce your running mate later on today.

HAGELIN: That will come together. It's elected by the convention delegates.

BATTISTA: All right. We have to take a quick break. We'll continue here in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me take a question here from Steve about religion -- Steve.

STEVE: Yes, I would like to know what role should religious issues play in the election?

HAGELIN: There must be a strict separation between church and state. That is doctrine in government. But at the same time, I think what America could use most is a revitalization of our nation from the inside out, that is, through more effective education that really expands comprehension, that will let us quickly get behind or beyond such issues as prejudice, bias, bigotry and intolerance.

My campaign is about inclusivity. I'm an educator running for office and I foundationally believe that education is the source and solution to many of America's problems, because America's problems tend to be human problems: crime, domestic violence, drug dependency. Even pollution results from a certain narrowness of vision, short- sighted behavior, and really reflects a failure of education.

BATTISTA: I know you are a big enthusiastic about transcendental meditation. Is that where your personal religious beliefs lie, more in the Eastern culture?

HAGELIN: I learned transcendental meditation when I was 17 under a recommendation of a doctor, my orthopedic surgeon. I was in a body cast from a motorcycle accident. He thought it would be helpful. Transcendental meditation is neither philosophy nor religion. It's a practice that the National Institutes of Health pour millions of dollars into to prevent hypertension, heart disease and stroke. The VA system hospitals reimburse for it. Tens of thousands of doctors prescribe it.

But as a candidate for president, my political philosophy is extremely clean and simple. I will simply support what works, not what is politically expedient or bought and paid for by special interest groups, just the most up-to-date and effective solutions to problems.

BATTISTA: And we have follow-up over here, I think, from Ken.

KEN: Yes. You say that Jesse Ventura was one of your heroes. And, you know, he's been very vocal here in what we would call a Christian nation against those who stand for Christian principles. Do you take those same stands as Jesse Ventura?

HAGELIN: No, I do not. I think some of his comments about religion were terribly unfortunate. What I like about Jesse Ventura is he took on the system and won, with a tiny campaign war chest, without the Republican or Democratic machines behind him. And he has been an outspoken supporter of independent politics. And American needs to know that's important. It's time we take back our stolen democracy from special interest dominance.

BATTISTA: Kevin, a question.

KEVIN: Yes, I think we all know where Pat Buchanan stands on more social issues. But I wondering if you comment on your stance on health care, abortion and sexual orientation.

HAGELIN: Certainly on health car, we've already discussed, I would favor shifting our disease-care system -- which is as cost effective as disaster -- towards a health-care system focusing on the prevention of disease, the promotion of health and saving up to $700 billion per year. On the abortion issue, I've been very clear. This is an issue where the American people are deeply divided. Well, if the American people haven't decided, what federal government of, by and for the people has the moral right, or even the Constitutional right, to take away a woman's right to choose.

I would vigorously defend a woman's right to choose.

BATTISTA: And sexual orientation was the last part of that question.

HAGELIN: Oh, the federal government should not be in the business of legislating morality. It should be out of the business, and our policies towards people all orientations should be absolutely equal. I'm a Libertarian on these principles.

BATTISTA: Kirby, question.

KIRBY: Good afternoon, Dr. Hagelin, nice to get a chance to talk to you. I wanted to ask you about national missile defense. It's a potential $60 billion investment aimed at defending the United States against missile attacks from rogue nations such as North Korean. Yesterday, the national intelligence has come out -- the intelligence community point out that this system could potentially result in the escalation of nuclear arsenals in China, Pakistan, and India. What do you think about that?

HAGELIN: It would. And not only that, this $60 billion is boondoggle is a demonstrated failure. It's only, what, another pork- barrel gift to the military industrial complex. Even if it worked, which it doesn't, it would only protect us against one nation today in the world, North Korea, and North Korea would never use such a high- cost, high-tech, traceable delivery device as an ICBM when they could just float an explosive up the Potomac.

The best way we can defend ourselves against attack is to stop creating enemies throughout the world through a highly invasive and meddlesome foreign policy. We have got to become -- stop being the principle exporter of weapons throughout the world, shift our foreign policies towards the export of crucial know-how of business, entrepreneurs, education, sustainable agricultural methods, environmental technologies to help more nations become food and economically self-sufficient.

We would have a more prosperous and secure family of nations.

BATTISTA: Patrice (ph) is on the phone from Nevada.

PATRICE: Yes, I was just wondering how can we trust the Reform Party if they can't get their act together at the convention. And by the time they get to the White House, are they going to act like that at the White House: deciding which country should decide with and that type of thing? I mean, it just seems ridiculous. I was watching the Reform Party for the last two days and they just can't seem who they want to be the leader.

And then, do we want them to come to the White House and decide, you know, about our world affairs?

BATTISTA: Yes, there is an image problem here for sure.

HAGELIN: There is image problem. That is a very fair question. But you have to understand the history of it. The Reform Party was founded upon the highest ethical principles of government. When Pat Buchanan came to this party, he was welcomed. He promised two things: number one, he would not physically try to roll over this party, to take it over; number two, he would not embroil the party in divisive social issues.

When he failed to uphold those promises, the party started to implode. And it has been a terrible process of attrition. We have dropped to one percent of the polls under Buchanan. But yesterday, the party rebounded. Buchanan has gone his separate way. Yes, he's taken a few states with him, but the Reform Party leadership, the strong states, the grassroots party-builders, the vast majority of the grassroots supporters are still with the Reform Party. And now we are revitalizing the party on its core founding principles of highest ethical standards in government.

You watch, two or three weeks from now, we are going to bounce back in the polls. We are going to reach beyond Perot's 20 million voters from 1992.

BATTISTA: All right, John Hagelin, thanks very much for joining us today, appreciate your time.

HAGELIN: Great to be with you.

BATTISTA: And by the way, John will be in the chat room at cnn.com/chat at 4:00 Eastern time, immediately following TALKBACK LIVE.

Coming up in a moment, former Perot running mate turned Buchanan supporter, Pat Choate.

We will be back right after the news break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

We are talking about the dissent in the Reform Party. With us now is Pat Choate, Ross Perot's running mate in 1996. He is among those who convinced Pat Buchanan to leave the Republican Party and join the Reform Party. Earlier this afternoon, Pat Buchanan announced that Ezola Foster, a Los Angeles teacher and political activist, will be his running mate. Let's hear what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EZOLA FOSTER (REF), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have been called bigoted and racist and all kinds of names. Why? Because we are concerned about our American children in our American schools. We're concerned about our American workers. We talk about the economy being so good, it breaks my heart to the see so many Americans, especially black men, in the lines of homeless meals and missions. It's so good? How did these people get left behind?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: All right, Pat Choate, why Ezola Foster?

PAT CHOATE, BUCHANAN REFORM MOVEMENT: She's a great choice, because Pat Buchanan, of course, is a foreign policy expert, and Ezola Foster speaks to on the great need in America today, and that's to educate and prepare our children. She is a success story beyond parallel. She grew up with a mother, with five children. She wound up working her way out of poverty, going to college, getting a masters degree, becoming a distinguished educator. Her son just graduated from Colombia Law School, and she makes the point that too often in this country we disregard our public schools, and we treat them as though only the federal government can solve them. Ezola Foster, as Pat Buchanan announced today, will be the head of the Domestic Policy Council.

It's a brilliant choice. She is the first black woman to be on the ticket in a major, national party. It is a big breakthrough, a big step, and it I think gives a real balance to the Buchanan ticket.

BATTISTA: At the same time, if the Reform Party were ever to win the presidency, she's a heartbeat away from the presidency. Is she qualified to run this country, should the need arise?

CHOATE: She knows as much about foreign policy, who's being home-schooled by Rice, as Pat said today.

BATTISTA: OK, question from David in the audience?

DAVID: Is it really true that Pat Buchanan made this choice to avoid the perception or the reality that he's a bigot?

CHOATE: No, he is not a bigot. If he were a bigot, he would have not picked this choice. That is proof in and of itself.

What you have in America is a very mean-spirited political system, where people are labeled and charged names and things that their not. They're not looked at the merits of who they are. With an Ezola Foster on the ticket, it makes it very clear that women have an opportunity to, just as they did when the Democrats in '84 put a woman on the ticket. It means that a black person will have a major chance at the presidency in our country. And all Americans can look at this woman and say, here is a person of talent and achievement. She would be somebody that you would be very proud to have represent you.

BATTISTA: A lot of longtime supporters of the Reform Party feel that Pat Buchanan is a right-wing extremist and not the right man for this party, including Ross Perot. You were a...

CHOATE: That's not true, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: But Ross Perot is -- he's supporting John Hagelin.

CHOATE: No, he is not.

BATTISTA: Well, that's what I read in my research, is that not true?

CHOATE: Well, no, you will not see Ross Perot out campaigning for the Natural Law Party candidate or issuing statements. I would be so sorely shocked to see that.

BATTISTA: Is he going to be campaigning for Pat Buchanan?

CHOATE: No, he's not going to be campaigning for anyone. He said from the very beginning of this campaign that he is going to remain assiduously neutral.

Remember early on when Pat Buchanan came into the party, and Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan were criticized. The criticism then was that Ross Perot had picked a hand-selected heir. And Perot came under great criticism, the party came under great criticism. At this point, Ross Perot has remained quite neutral in this.

And as far as the question...

BATTISTA: I guess what I'm asking, is the Reform Party redefining itself, though, at this point, than what it started out as eight years ago?

CHOATE: No, it is not. When you take a look at this party, there is a series of issues -- the trade policy issues, political reform, stopping illegal immigration. These have been the core issues of our party from the beginning. I gave a speech last night -- that unfortunately CNN did not cover, but C-Span did -- where I traced out how Pat Buchanan has held those same views for many years.

Now, the one difference in this party and the other party is we do not put social issues as a part of the platform. They are a personal statement. Ross Perot and I ran on the party platform, but what we also did is, we issued personal statements on the abortion issue. I ran pro-choice. Ross Perot ran pro-choice. Pat Buchanan runs pro-life. He has a different view. But my point is, if it's legitimate for Ross Perot and I to run on the party platform and issue a personal statement on the social issues, it is equally OK for Pat Buchanan to run on the party platform and issue a personal statement on the issues.

BATTISTA: I guess people find that a little confusing. You know, if you just say: Well, those are Pat Buchanan's personal beliefs but those are not the beliefs of the party?

(CROSSTALK)

CHOATE: Well, they Ross Perot's -- they were my personal views.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: But how can you say it is not going to affect policy? I mean, Pat Buchanan has said that if he is elected, he will replace any openings on the Supreme Court with pro-life judges, he will -- you know what I mean?

CHOATE: But Bobbie...

BATTISTA: How can that not be the position of the party?

CHOATE: Well, I mean, the party is -- has its platform and then the candidates have their personal positions. Were I president, I would have done a very different thing. If Ross Perot were president, he would have done a very different thing. What you have is Bob Dole would have done very differently than George W. Bush. You wind up that Bill Clinton will do very differently than Al Gore.

So, you've got to make a distinction between the party and its core principles, which Pat Buchanan, Ross Perot and me and others are in fundamental agreement with. But the social issues were very Libertarian. That should be the choice of the candidate. And you take him or you reject him on that basis.

BATTISTA: Horace, in the audience, question or comment?

HORACE: Yes, I like Pat Buchanan. But one of the questions I would have is why he switched to the Reform Party since he is a Republican at heart? Why would he change to the Republican -- Reform Party?

CHOATE: Well, I would make the argument that he is really a reformer at heart. For example, he is against the stupid free-trade guilds. The Republican Party is for that. He is against illegal immigration. The Republican Party has, in effect, turned their blind eye to those issues. Pat Buchanan has run a campaign without a single dime of pact or special interest money. The Republican Party is addicted to pact and special interest money. Moreover, the Republican Party would never put someone as an independent as Pat Buchanan in as their nominee.

BATTISTA: Let me get to the a couple of e-mails as we go to break here. "Pat Buchanan is the only one who can grow the Reform Party. That is why the party asked him to join." That's from Shirley in South Carolina." Rick in Kentucky says: "It seems Buchanan used his name, money, and influence to bully his way into the Reform Party ticket. We all know the Republicans and the Democrats play dirty politics. The Reform Party was supposed to change all that. Now we need a fourth party."

We will be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Pat, the audience is still confused on how they vote for the Reform Party if they don't like the candidate's personal beliefs. Like, one person says: "Pat Buchanan frightens me. From what I have heard of him, he will force his religious beliefs on all Americans. Is that to be free?"

CHOATE: No, no, that is not true. That is the same -- Pat Buchanan is a Roman Catholic. And that same claim was made against John Kennedy. What you have are two Orthodox, religious people in this race. You have Joseph Lieberman, who is an Orthodox Jew, and have you Pat Buchanan, who is a practicing Catholic. Their religion should play no part in this election. These are honorable, respectable people. Neither one of them should be penalized for their religion.

BATTISTA: Well, like I say, I think that there is confusion there, though with...

CHOATE: What is confused about it? The...

BATTISTA: Well, because I think Pat is...

CHOATE: They are Catholics. They subscribe to the Constitution.

BATTISTA: But Joseph Lieberman is not going to impose his Orthodox Jewish beliefs on the rest of the country.

CHOATE: Well, what makes you think that Pat Buchanan will? Where do you get that idea?

BATTISTA: Well, by his stand on a number of social issues that are related to his religious beliefs.

CHOATE: Well, you know, all of us have moral views. Bobbie, that's anti-Catholic what you are saying.

BATTISTA: It's not anti-Catholic.

(CROSSTALK)

CHOATE: ... because he will impose religious beliefs from Rome. It was the same charge that...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: That is not what I said. That is what of you said.

CHOATE: Yes, it is what you said.

BATTISTA: What I said, though, the audience doesn't understand, because I asked how they can vote for the Reform Party and its platform if they don't like the candidate's personal beliefs on certain issues. How do they reconcile that, I mean, if they are trying to get votes?

CHOATE: Well, that's a very different thing, I mean, but what you were presenting to me is: How you can vote for somebody who would follow his Catholic beliefs? BATTISTA: Well, that is not what I said. But anyway, let me go to the audience here.

CHOATE: Let's run the tape.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here.

CHOATE: Okay.

BATTISTA: Jonathan, go ahead.

JONATHAN: My question was concerning gun control. You seem to be taking a very Libertarian stance on of issues. How does that work into your all's platform or personal beliefs?

CHOATE: Strong supporters of the Second Amendment. You should have a right to own a gun in America. At the same time, the laws against felons owning goods should be enforced and this administration has enforced it.

BATTISTA: I am sorry. We are running up against a break here. We will be back in just a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: I think that we are going to take a look at a live picture here up in Detroit, where presidential candidate Al Gore will be speaking to the UAW Convention in just a few short moments. His plane has arrived in Detroit. So CNN will be caring his address to the UAW, where he is expected to pick up the endorsement of that union coming up shortly here.

Pat, one last question: Almost as important the money is to the Reform Party candidate, is getting into the debates. Are you going to be able to do that?

CHOATE: We have a case before the courts. We are going to try. We are going to work very hard after this convention to drive ourselves up in the polls. We are optimistic that the court will find in our favor and force us in. What the Republicans are doing is illegal and it's unfair, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Is it possible that you are going to end up being a spoiler for George W. Bush?

CHOATE: We really don't care. George Bush and Al Gore are about the same. If what we want to do is just win the presidency. We want to beat them both.

BATTISTA: OK, question, Josh.

JOSH: How does Pat Buchanan define the issue of separation of church and state?

CHOATE: Constitutionally -- just what the Constitution says. He believes it religiously. BATTISTA: Jimmy, question.

JIMMY: I know that Pat Buchanan has been a very big opponent of affirmative action in the past. If not affirmative action, what alternative does he have to include, to make sure everybody is included in the American dream?

CHOATE: To make sure that everyone has equal rights. His running mate, Ezola Foster, shows what can be done if people are given a real chance -- equal opportunity for everyone.

BATTISTA: Let's take a quick look at the results of our TALKBACK LIVE "Viewer Vote." The question is: "Who should be the Reform Party presidential candidate?" Let's see, 70 percent say John Hagelin, and 30 percent are saying Pat Buchanan. That is just in our unofficial TALKBACK LIVE "Viewer Vote" there. I guess it's also our audience's as well.

Is this going to be an uphill climb for Pat Buchanan, Pat?

CHOATE: No, not at all. I mean, he is going to win the nomination here. But the real problem that we face is to make sure that we do not have a media blackout. What we have had here is John Hagelin talking about his platform. I have been here talking about other things. If we'll give Pat Buchanan an equal opportunity to sit down against John Hagelin, what you'll find is it will go about 95 to five for Pat Buchanan.

BATTISTA: In all honesty, too, we spent the first 15 minutes talking to John about the state of the Reform Party, so...

CHOATE: Well, that is OK. Bobbie, if you will give Pat Buchanan equal opportunity, that vote will disproportionately go for Pat Buchanan.

BATTISTA: We did invite him today. We should say that. But we are happy to have him back along with John Hagelin. It would be our pleasure.

CHOATE: Thank you.

BATTISTA: All right, Pat Choate, thank you very much for joining us today.

And we are out of time. Thanks to our studio audience and to you at home as well. You can continue the conversation, by the way, with John Hagelin in the chat room at cnn.com/chat. That is coming up in a few minutes at 4:00 p. m. Eastern time.

TALKBACK LIVE will be back on Monday at 3:00 p.m. Enjoy the weekend.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com