Crossfire

Should Whoever Loses the Florida Vote Count Concede Defeat?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're taking our time, in a very low-key manner preparing for a possible administration.

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BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: George Bush prepares for an administration while Al Gore prepares to wait it out.

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WILLIAM DALEY, GORE CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: As frustrating as this wait may be, what we are seeing here is democracy in action.

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PRESS: Tonight, should Gore pursue legal action? Should whoever loses the Florida vote count concede defeat?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Robert Novak. In the crossfire, Republican National Committee chairman Jim Nicholson, and in Philadelphia, Ed Rendell, general chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

PRESS: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Who's the next president? It's not anymore clear tonight. It's even murkier with the margin in New Mexico now too close to consider that state anymore in Al Gore's column.

Take away New Mexico and Gore's lead in the electoral vote shrinks to 255 to 246. But the big mystery remains Florida. A hand recount of ballots in Palm Beach County begins tomorrow morning. The official recount won't be announced until next Tuesday, November 14, but all absentee ballots won't be counted until next Friday, November 17.

While election officials were doing their job,both campaigns were waging a public relations war. For Bush, James Baker accusing Democrats of trying to overturn the election in the courts. For Gore, Bill Daley insisting all he wants is a fair and honest count.

So tonight, when and how will it ever end? -- Bob. ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Ed Rendell, when this business about the Palm Beach County ballot first came up by our old friend Congressman Robert Wexler, I thought he was just trying to get a little television time. I had no idea anybody could be serious about it.

You know, Al Cardenas, the Florida GOP chairman, said: "Have you ever checked out a welfare or IRS form? They're far more complex."

He's got a right -- you've got a reputation for candor, Ed. This is a phony, isn't it?

ED RENDELL, GENERAL CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, Bob, first of all, Florida law makes it very clear that you can only challenge something like this if the ballot was printed or designed in violation of Florida law, and this ballot was for a number of reasons that we all know by now. And secondly, Florida law says you can only challenge if it creates significant doubts about the outcome of the election. And this ballot does.

I mean, you have at least 22,000 that almost everyone concedes were intended to be voted for Al Gore that either went into Buchanan's column or were double-voted. If you check the double-voted ballots, Bob, they are double-voted for Gore and for Buchanan.

NOVAK: But of course, 95 percent, 96 percent actually of the people in the county got it right, didn't have any trouble. And not only that, "The Shreveport Times," newspaper in Louisiana, asked -- went to a fourth-grade class at a school in Bourg (ph) City, Louisiana, and asked 22 kids to vote for Al Gore on the ballot. Do you know what the score was? 22 to nothing. Fourth-grade kids all got it right.

RENDELL: Well, Bob, let me show you something that sort of undercuts what you just said. The Florida Election Board, the supervisor of elections, thought there was enough confusion that at 4 o'clock on election day they distributed this form and flyer to all election personnel throughout Palm Beach County.

So obviously, they were looking at a situation where there was mass confusion, a number of complaints, and they took this extraordinary step of sending this form out in the middle of election day.

NOVAK: Yes, I have heard that many times. You know...

RENDELL: But Bob, that's a fact. Bob, that's a fact.

NOVAK: I mean, you know...

RENDELL: I mean, you can try -- you can try to talk away that, but that's a fact.

NOVAK: The interesting thing to me is what the so-called full ballot count -- you're really not counting ballots now. They've been counted twice. Why do you want a hand ballot? What you want the hand ballot for is to get it in the hands of partisan Democrats to try to detect what the voters really wanted. Let me just tell you how this is going work. You're going to have a Democratic apparatchik looking at the hand ballot, a Democratic watcher, a Republican watcher. They split. Then it goes to the three-man Democratic board, and in a place like Broward County, you steal the election. Isn't that exactly how it works?

RENDELL: Well, first of all, Bob, it won't be stolen, because the media will be -- have access to all of this. And the reason they're hand ballots -- and I'm glad you asked, because it's a legitimate question. The reason there are hand ballots is because there are several thousand votes in a lot of different counties, in four different counties, that were not counted for president. They weren't tallied for president.

And the reason that happens is because when the puncher, when the person punches the whole, if they totally dislodge that little thing in the middle that's called a chad...

NOVAK: They ought to get some vitamins.

RENDELL: ... then the computer doesn't pick it up. But the law -- Florida election law specifically says that on a manual count they can review that, and if the voter's preference is clear, even if that little thing isn't dislodged, the vote is to be counted.

Now, that's in the Florida statute, Bob, and there were, I'd all tolled, over 15,000 people in those four counties who voted but didn't cast a vote for president.

PRESS: All right, Mr. Chairman, let me ask you about that and let's start here in Palm Beach County, because as Chairman Rendell pointed out, we've been talking a lot the last day or so about these 19,000 ballots that were not counted because it was more than one punch. But there's another 10,000 roughly that there was no vote for president, because that little hanging chad or whatever didn't go all the way through enough to register.

So if you add 19 and 10, you're up to 29,000, 30,000 votes, which is about 10 percent of the votes in that one county. Now, don't you think that just the possibility that up to 30,000 people might have been disenfranchised, that you can't just sweep this aside? You've got to take a serious look at it, don't you? As an American I'm asking you.

JIM NICHOLSON, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: That's a good question, as an American. That's the hat we all ought to be wearing...

PRESS: I agree. No, I agree.

NICHOLSON: ... because there's a lot at stake in this. It's not Palm Beach County, it's not Florida. It's our country and our freedom and our Constitution. And if you're going to ask about enfranchisement, Bill, why don't you ask about these people in north and western Florida who were standing in line to vote when the networks said Florida's over and that Vice President Gore has won Florida and they went home. How many of them went home? How many of them didn't vote? Should they be allowed now come back and vote?

PRESS: Well, I appreciate you trying to change the subject, but I really would like an answer to my question about 30,000 people in Palm Beach County, 30,000 ballots in Palm Beach. All I'm saying is, as an American, if the possibility that 30,000 were disenfranchised for whatever reason -- I mean, in previous elections, it's been 1 percent maybe not counted. This is up to almost 10 now.

NICHOLSON: Actually in 19...

PRESS: Don't you think it's worth a serious look in Palm Beach County?

NICHOLSON: In 1996 there were about 15,000 ballots in Palm Beach County that weren't counted for one reason or another. So -- and it was a higher turnout on Tuesday that in 1996. So this is -- this is not an alarmingly high number.

But I think what you need to focus on is that these ballots were counted once by a machine and then they were recounted by a machine. And the reason they use machines is they're more accurate. That's why they've decided to go to machines.

PRESS: But you see you're absolutely dead wrong, if I may so, respectfully. The machine did not count these ballots. That's why the 10,000 are called "no counts."

Now, let me -- let me show what...

NICHOLSON: I don't even know how you know that number, Bill.

PRESS: Let me show if I...

NICHOLSON: Because the machine has...

PRESS: Because the election officials have said that.

Let me show you, if I may, what -- a point that Vice President Gore's campaign manager said today about this count, why it's important. Here's Bill Daley.

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DALEY: I hope all Americans agree that the will of the people, not a computer glitch, should select our next president.

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PRESS: So the computer didn't count them. What you're saying is tough luck. Is that the democratic way?

NICHOLSON: You know, we hold elections across this country. This is a huge country, and it's an imperfect process. And there are probably glitches and irregularities that have gone on since we've been holding elections all over this country.

And we have a system, and when people go vote and we count it, we ought to respect the results. In fact, that's what Senator Breaux said, Democrat, Senator Breaux...

PRESS: I don't care what he said.

NICHOLSON: He said we ought to vote, count the votes and respect the decision.

NOVAK: All right. Chairman Rendell, this is -- I've been in politics, watching politics a long time, been in this town 43 years. I've never seen anything like this. And I hope you're not too partisan to be outraged by it, too, because what has been done is the Democrats in Florida, with the presidency at stake, are asking for a so-called hand count in four Democratic counties by -- conducted by Democratic poll watchers, Democratic election boards: not to verify the count. They've had two counts. It is to determine the intent of voters by looking at the ballots.

How in the world can a cheap politician say, I know this guy intended to vote for Gore even though he didn't punch through the ballot?

RENDELL: Well, Bob, first of all, this process is specifically authorized by Florida election law: a manual hand count to check whether these hanging chads have been dislodged or not, and to try to validate the will of the voter. That's No. 1.

But No. 2, you know, we're all acting as if this is the first presidential election that's had recount or challenges. These things are fairly commonplace in American politics. We have them in every jurisdiction.

In fact, there's a congressman sitting in the United States House today, Congressman Delahunt, who won his seat in the -- he won the primary when a judge reviewed these type of computer punch card...

NOVAK: Very dubious -- very dubious decision, and it's the only decision of its kind.

RENDELL: But Bob, it was upheld by the Massachusetts Appellate Court. And again, let me -- let me tell you, the Florida election law specifically authorizes a manual hand count to check -- on computer punchouts -- to check whether the votes are there. Why are you afraid to see?

NOVAK: I'm not afraid of anything.

RENDELL: Why are you afraid to see if a person actually did intend to vote for a candidate?

NOVAK: I want to put it to you right now that you find Democratic politicians divining that's the intent of voters and this is decided by an all Democratic election board in a Democratic county to pick the president of the United States. Do you think that is a fair process?

RENDELL: When the media is observant of it at all times and when it's open to judicial review, of course. Bob, let's take one of these cards. I don't know if Bill has one. And if a voter punched it out but didn't punch the little -- what they call the chad -- all the way through and it's just hanging by a thread, don't you think if that's the case, don't you think that vote should be validated?

NOVAK: What is happening, Ed, is right now the reason that everybody said, well, let's have the vote is that you have concocted a way for stealing this election without judicial review.

RENDELL: Bob, you keep using the word stealing and concocted. It is specifically authorized by Florida election law. And what we are trying to do is take these almost 10,000 people in Palm Beach and 7,000 people in Broward who went in there and cast a vote for president and we're trying to validate their ability to vote.

NOVAK: What about the 120,000 in Cook County that we are throwing out?

OK, we have to take a break. Debate both Chairman Rendell and Chairman Nicholson on-line right after the show at cnn.com/crossfire.

We are going to be back to talk about how this is spreading across the entire country, something that was started in Florida. And after a break, I thought we were taking a break. There we are. Al Gore had a little photo-op to show he doesn't really care. And naturally, CNN is running it. But there he is playing touch football. And isn't that sweet?

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NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It's not just Florida that's in doubt for president. Now New Mexico is too close to call. The Republicans are challenging Wisconsin. The Democrats may challenge New Hampshire. Nobody, it appears, has clinched Oregon certainly, yet. Do we need a new election? We are asking Edward G. Rendell, general chairman of the Democratic Party and Jim Nicholson, chairman of the Republican National Committee -- Bill Press.

PRESS: Bob is right. Mr. Chairman, nobody has clinched Oregon yet. We are told that A.P. is saying, we have not confirmed this, that there are enough votes now there to give it to Al Gore. But at any rate, even if that's the case, it doesn't change the electoral vote count -- it changes it, but it doesn't resolve what we are talking about, this uncertainty.

I want to go back to the first thing you said, which is, this is a serious time. As Americans, we ought to calm down and take this seriously.

And in light of that attitude, that approach, which I share, I want to play you a quote this morning from Governor Bush's communications director, Karen Hughes. This is her first statement this morning. I'm sorry. It's a grab we don't have. I'll read it to you.

She said this morning, the vote count on Tuesday night showed Governor Bush won Florida's election and a recount has now confirmed his victory.

Now, Mr. Chairman, you would have to agree that that statement is inflammatory as well as untrue and she's just pouring gasoline on the flames.

NICHOLSON: Well, it's neither inflammatory or untrue. It's factual. He did win, and they recounted and he won again. Look, I'd like to go back to what you started.

PRESS: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, let's just stick with the facts. Number one, the secretary of state certifies. You do not decide that, neither does Karen Hughes. The secretary of state in Florida certifies these elections, one. She has not done so yet. She has said the recount is not official yet. She won't even have those votes until Tuesday. She has said she will not certify the election until next Friday. How can you say that Bush won Florida? You don't know. I don't know. You don't know.

NICHOLSON: Because he has the most votes. They've counted.

PRESS: It doesn't mean he won. It's not over.

NICHOLSON: That usually means that in an election. It's usually he who wins the most vote wins.

PRESS: When it's over.

NICHOLSON: In fact, let me read a quote from the vice president that you'll find interesting. I brought along here, Bill. It says, in our campaigns, no matter how hard they are fought, they may be, no matter how close the elections may turn out to be, those who lose accept the verdict and support those who win.

That was the vice president. You know who the vice president was who said this? Vice President Nixon said that in 1961. Historians are now saying that was probably stolen from him.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: I want to come back to Florida in the year 2000. This election, will you please admit that this vote count in Florida, the election in Florida, is not over and we do not know at this point who won Florida? Correct?

NICHOLSON: What we know is that Governor Bush has gotten more votes in Florida than Vice President Gore.

PRESS: I'm just saying he hasn't won it and to say that he has won it is just --

NOVAK: We've been around that block six times. PRESS: But Bob, it's a factual mistake.

NOVAK: All right, you just said it five times.

Mr. Rendell, one of my favorite Democrats, you're one of my favorite Democrats, but another one is Bob Torricelli of New Jersey, who has the affliction of often telling the truth. And he said the other day, it's a downward spiral. It may begin in Florida, but it can go to other states and ultimately the presidency of the United States should not be decided by a judge.

Do you agree with that?

RENDELL: Well, as a general rule, absolutely. And if there are other states where there are doubts as great as this where there are 30-35,000 votes at issue, then I would think that action would be appropriate in those cases.

NOVAK: You would think it would be appropriate?

RENDELL: Would be appropriate.

NOVAK: Where does it end?

RENDELL: Well, it ends when those things are resolved. And it's interesting, while we were on break, Congressman Fattah called me and said that on MSNBC today the chief Texas election officer -- and they have punch votes in some jurisdictions -- said a hand count is the best way to get an accurate vote. So that's from Texas, from part of the Texas state government, that a hand count is preferred to just the computer scanning.

So, what we are trying to do, Bob, is validate the will of the voters. You shouldn't be afraid of that. Governor Bush shouldn't be afraid of that. If, in fact, Al Gore was the choice of the majority of Floridians, he should get the electoral votes.

NOVAK: I'm talking about this process, which just scares the hell out of me and a lot of other people who are not particularly partisan.

RENDELL: Bob, courts do this all the time.

NOVAK: Let me ask you a question, Chairman Rendell, if you have the Democrats picking four Democratic counties and trying to have a so-called hand count to change votes, don't you think the Republicans would be justified, as Jim Baker said today, to go into the panhandle, to go into Sarasota and say hey, maybe we can dig up some more votes and overcome the votes they get? Isn't that a can of worms?

RENDELL: No, you're missing an important fact. We know -- fact -- these four counties, thousands of Floridians voted, and yet a vote for president was not cast on their ballots. If that fact exists in any other jurisdiction, sure I'd like to see that investigated.

But that is a fact, Bob, there's an... NOVAK: Isn't it true, that this is an inexact business, and if you are going to go into all the jurisdictions of the United States we have, you have destroyed our system?

RENDELL: Well, Bob, let me give you an example. In Philadelphia, we have the old-fashioned voting machines where you click the numbers. Let's assume, at the end of an election, they open the machine in that particular precinct and it was blank -- that, because of electronic failure, none of the votes were recorded in that precinct.

NOVAK: That isn't what happened in Florida.

RENDELL: I'm just saying, would that be grounds -- assuming it was an election that was decided by less votes than were cast in that precinct, would that be grounds to let the people who voted that day revote? Of course it would be.

PRESS: We have to leave that question hang. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, we're out of time.

RENDELL: But of course, it would be.

PRESS: Thank you Mr. Chairman, both of you; Chairman Jim Nicholson, good to see you here, hope we have it all resolved soon. Ed Rendell, thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for joining us.

Bob Novak and I will come back with a little recount -- call it closing comments, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: CROSSFIRE doesn't stop here. Debate the chairmen right after the show at cnn.com/crossfire, then tune in for our very own Bill Press tonight at 11:30 p.m. Eastern in "THE SPINROOM" with Tucker Carlson.

Bill, for the first time today -- I've been working this story, as you know, all week -- I got the feeling that the Democrats have found the secret to this puzzle. They're not going to go to court, they're going to finish it up next week. And what they're going to do is they're going to change ballots in Broward County, particularly, and three other Democratic counties to overwhelm the Republicans.

Does that make you feel a little bit queasy and uneasy?

PRESS: Well, when you accuse Democrats of committing a crime in advance, without any evidence at all, Bob, I don't take it seriously at all.

Let me tell you what's happening. No. 1, this is not unusual; I can tell you a congressional race in California, Ed Rendell mentioned one in Massachusetts where a judge has said, the machine screwed up. Machines aren't perfect -- the machine screwed up, therefore you have to do a hand count. It happens all the time. You're afraid of it because those ballots in Palm Beach County are going to show Al Gore won.

NOVAK: It's frivolous and dangerous.

PRESS: Al Gore will win Florida and the election. Good night for CROSSFIRE. I'm Bill Press, have a good weekend everybody.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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