Crossfire

Will There Be a Democrat in the Bush Cabinet?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Tonight, let the Cabinet-making begin. Will there be a Democrat in the Bush Cabinet? Will an abortion rights supporter get a key position? And will Colin Powell have a new job tomorrow?

ANNOUNCER: Live, from Washington, CROSSFIRE.

On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE, former Republican presidential candidate Gary Bauer, chairman of the Campaign for Working Families and Republican Congressman Christopher Shays of Connecticut.

NOVAK: And welcome to CROSSFIRE.

George W. Bush must finally be satisfied that he is really and truly the president-elect with no Florida recount in his future because he's finally is starting to fill in his Cabinet. The word is out that the least surprising nomination will be unveiled tomorrow, General Colin Powell as secretary of state.

Today, Democratic Senator John Breaux of Louisiana conferred with the president-elect and said, sorry, governor, I don't want to be your secretary of energy because I want to stay in the Senate. So, what's next? An opponent of higher defense spending named to the Pentagon? An abortion rights advocate at the Justice Department or a Health and Human Services? Should the new president name choices to please the people who voted against him or for him -- Bill Press.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Gary Bauer, tomorrow one of the most admired men in America will become the -- be named to be the next secretary of state of the United States, General Colin Powell. Do you believe that by appointing a pro-choice Republican as secretary of state that George W. Bush has abandoned and betrayed his conservative base?

GARY BAUER, CHAIRMAN, CAMPAIGN FOR WORKING FAMILIES: Well, I don't think the Powell appointment by itself would lead one to that conclusion. Bill, what I'm much more concerned about is what he's going to do on policy. He's already under heavy pressure, having won the election, to govern as if he were a new Democrat.

That would be a disaster, and I hope in the other appointments he picks people that are solid conservatives, pro-defense, for smaller government, for lower taxes, pro-life and pro-family. Those are the people that elected him.

PRESS: Well, of course, policy is made by people in powerful positions.

BAUER: Yes, indeed.

PRESS: Right, and so let's talk about some of the other people that George Bush is supposedly considering. We don't know for sure. They happen to be the same political stripe as Colin Powell. Of course, Governor Christie Whitman from New Jersey is one of the ones talked about, perhaps for a Cabinet post.

Another governor, who was very helpful to Governor Bush in his campaign, appeared on CROSSFIRE several times, Governor Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania -- a very strong voice for the governor, former member of Congress. And then another former congressman who tried and didn't make it, Rick Lazio, a pro-choice Republican has been talked about maybe for HHS.

Gary Bauer, it looks like you've down for the count. I mean, all of these guys are not from your part of the party. And what's wrong? If Colin Powell is OK then why not Whitman, Ridge, and Lazio.

BAUER: Well, look, if all those individuals got the kind of appointments that you're talking about, then I think a pattern would begin to develop that would be very disturbing to a lot of conservatives. Look, George Bush...

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Why?

BAUER: ... because George Bush was elected president of the United States because he ran on a platform that said he wanted to increase defense spending and rebuild the American military. That he wanted to appoint Supreme Court justices like Scalia and Thomas. That he wanted lower taxes, that he wanted to protect and defend traditional values.

Those are the kind of issues that he ought to be promoting and people that believe in those things ought to be getting the top posts in his administration. He's never going to satisfy the people that voted against him, and if he makes you happy, he's in trouble.

NOVAK: Let me carry that on a little further. Congressman Chris Shays, I want you to take a look at a map of the United States. I know it's painful for you to look at this map. But, it's red and blue. Now, the red are the counties that supported George W. Bush. And the blue are the counties that supported Al Gore, that includes, Connecticut, your state.

Now, if I understand your game plan which you want, you want the president-elect to pick his main Cabinet members from the blue areas, the Gore areas, and not from the red areas. Is that about it?

REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: Nope. Got it wrong. I want him to pick the best people, whether they be Republicans, whether they be Democrats, moderates, conservatives. I want him to pick the best people. I want him to take whoever he picks, and move this country to the right, but from the center not from the right trying to pull everybody out over there.

NOVAK: I'm on the right and trying I'm to pull everybody over there and that's the name of game. But I want to read you

SHAYS: But you're not president, thank God.

PRESS: Thank God. Right. You got it right, Chris.

NOVAK: Well, some people -- well, we won't go into that. Now, I want you to -- I want to read something. I want to put it up on the screen, by one of the smartest political guys in town. Do you know Marshall Wittmann of the Heritage?

SHAYS: Indeed, I do.

NOVAK: Don't you think he's a pretty smart guy?

SHAYS: He's a very bright guy.

NOVAK: He said the Austin -- that's Austin, Texas -- the Austin Hippocratic Oath is do not enrage conservatives, so HHS -- health and human services -- will have to be pro-life. Isn't it a fact, Congressman Shays, that if your -- our president-elect puts a pro- abortion Republican at HHS, that's a slap in the face to all the millions of people who worked so hard to get him elected president.

SHAYS: No, I think depends who he puts on. Is this someone who understands health issues? Is it someone who understands education issues? Is it someone who understands social issues? I mean, the bottom line -- the person at HHS isn't going to have much to do about deciding whether or not we have abortion. That's that extra little issue that always gets put into the Senate.

NOVAK: There are so many issues dealing with abortion over there.

SHAYS: You know, Cudlow (ph) had it right when he talked about the fact that this is going to be a conservative administration, governing from the center.

PRESS: Gary Bauer, Governor Bush said something Wednesday night that almost knocked me off my chair. In his whatever you call that speech from Austin following the vice president, acceptance speech, I guess, I'd like you to listen to just one sentence, here, the one that struck me, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our nation must rise above a house divided. Americans share hopes and goals and values far more important than any political disagreements. Republicans want the best for our nation. And so do Democrats. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Republicans want the best for our nation and so do Democrats. Can you imagine Tom DeLay saying that or Dick Armey or Trent Lott? I mean, I can't but George Bush said it and doesn't that mean that he not only wants but should have Democrats, at least one Democrat, in his Cabinet?

BAUER: Well, look, I don't have a problem with a Democrat in the Cabinet, Bill. If I were you, I wouldn't stick too close to my phone, but I think there are conservative Democrats...

PRESS: I was sitting there all day today. It rang, but for something else.

BAUER: I do think there are conservative Democrats that could fit in very well with a conservative administration. But, look I want to keep getting back to the central point here. George Bush is being told by all kinds of folks that he needs to go slow, run to the middle, don't do anything confrontational, et cetera. What irony?

Bill Clinton is working nonstop in the closing days of his presidency to promote the liberal agenda. He's a lame-duck president, deeply damaged in many, many ways. He never stops pushing his liberalism. We've got a new conservative president taking office. He ought to fight as hard for conservative governing principles. If he does, he'll be a two-term president.

PRESS: Look, I don't see where you see this mythical conservative mandate. He lost the popular vote, you know, almost didn't win presidential vote. He won -- he is president-elect by one vote in the Supreme Court. The Senate is tied 50/50. The House is closer than it's been in a long time. It seems to me the American people are saying, it's the middle, stupid. It's not where you are, Gary Bauer.

BAUER: But what you describe as the middle is the left wing to most Americans. Every initiative that I've been pushing the new administration on, and I did it today in "The New York Times," will not only be supported overwhelmingly by Republicans including I believe the Congressmen, but will get significant Democratic votes in Congress.

A tax bill to lower taxes, absolutely. A new budget bill for the Department of Defense to rebuild the American military, an immediate ban on partial-birth abortion, repeal Clinton's executive orders that he's issued in recent years, those are all bottom-line things that George Bush ought to do, and if he does them, he will find himself in a very strong position.

NOVAK: But we're talking -- go ahead, Chris.

SHAYS: They're center issues. Those issues that we've already worked on as a Congress, and passed and the only person who stopped us was the president. So, we're going to pass those things, but if he can find a conservative moderate Democrat, why wouldn't he want it? NOVAK: Congressman Shays, we have -- you are talking about the Cabinet, and I think you are saying, whether you believe it or not, that there shouldn't be a litmus test. So, do you know a person named Kay James? Ever heard that name. She's an African-American woman. She had a high position in the state of Virginia. Very strong anti- abortion, very well qualified. Would you think she'd be a good secretary of HHS? Or does her anti-abortion position disqualify her?

SHAYS: No, see, that's the whole point. I don't think for or against abortion should determine who's secretary of HHS. It's a much bigger agency than just about abortion.

NOVAK: I want to ask you another question. We have a -- we talked about Governor Ridge before. Did you serve in the congressman...

(CROSSTALK)

SHAYS: Great congressman, a great governor.

NOVAK: Governor Ridge was against a national defense initiative, anti-missile defense when he was in Congress. He voted against it. He was against every new weapons systems. He never served on the Armed Services Committee.

Why in the world would the Bush people even consider Tom Ridge for secretary of defense?

SHAYS: Well, he happened to have served in Vietnam for one thing.

NOVAK: He was a squad leader.

SHAYS: And he happened to have been very pro-defense on a lot of issues except he didn't want to have a national defense program until...

NOVAK: But Bush does. But Bush does.

SHAYS: ... until -- until we have a system that works.

NOVAK: But Bush is for it.

SHAYS: And Bush is in control.

NOVAK: Why would he name somebody like that as secretary of defense then?

SHAYS: Because he's competent, he's sharp, he can work with both sides of the aisle. And he's basically a moderate to conservative member of our party. He's great.

BAUER: Look, I think Bob is right. I mean, Governor Ridge is a good guy, but there are plenty of competent people that are strong on defense issues and have a record on defense issues. In all due respect to Governor Ridge, he was a thorn in our side in the Reagan years. He was against the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. He was against the MX missile. He sided with Pat Schroeder on the nuclear freeze.

I think personnel is policy, and I hope that the rumors about that appointment end up not coming to pass.

PRESS: Gentlemen, we're going to take a break, and we're going to give our viewers at home a chance to jump into this debate. Here's your online question for tonight's vote: Should Bush appoint Democrats to his Cabinet? Just go to cnn.com/crossfire to vote, and we'll give you the answers later. Of course, after the show, you can stay online to debate tonight's guests, Gary Bauer and Chris Shays, Representative Christopher Shays right after the show.

Now, we'll take a break, and when we come back, we'll ask the question, how far is George W. Bush willing to go? Will he offer me a job?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

PRESS: When we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. By now the only two people not talked about for jobs in George Bush's White House are Bob Novak and me. But not even Bob Novak may be conservative enough for Jerry Falwell and others, who fear that Bush may be veering too much toward the center in looking for people to fill those top jobs in his administration.

Should he include a couple of Democrats in the mix and just what big names do conservatives really want? Two Republicans join us to put names on the Cabinets chairs tonight: former presidential candidate Gary Bauer and Republican Congressman from Connecticut Christopher Shays -- Bob.

NOVAK: Chris Shays, all this stuff about Democrats helping this administration, which came in, in such a precarious position -- you know, I have been around this town for 43 years, and I've seen a lot of people take in somebody from the opposite party, and I've never seen it do a bit of good.

For example, do you think Bill Clinton picking a very distinguished Republican senator -- he is a distinguished Republican senator -- Bill Cohen of Maine helped him with the Republicans on defense policy or anything else?

SHAYS: It sure did. But...

NOVAK: It did?

SHAYS: But over time, it started to wear out, because he became more and more attached to Bill Clinton. But in the beginning, I think it was a great help. The bottom line is, though, President Bush, President-elect Bush should select the best people, be they Republican or Democrat, that move this country from the center toward the right.

NOVAK: See, I -- do you think Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota is a competent, intelligent man?

SHAYS: He wouldn't be my choice...

NOVAK: Is he a competent, intelligent man? If you say the ideology doesn't matter -- he said in your seat last night, and he said he'd like to be George Bush's secretary of labor.

SHAYS: Good luck.

NOVAK: And so you do have an ideological test somewhere deep in your liberal (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

SHAYS: Yes, I'd like him to at least be moderate to conservative.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: Gary Bauer, you mentioned your -- you were the first to mention, your op-ed piece in "The New York Times" this morning...

BAUER: Yes. I just -- we didn't want it go without being mentioned. Thank you. I appreciate that.

PRESS: No, it was a self-serving moment, but I'd like...

(CROSSTALK)

... to bring it back up again tonight, at least to quote -- quote one little piece of it...

BAUER: Sure.

PRESS: ... where you wrote this morning, your advice to Governor Bush. "The coalitions he should seek are not in some mythical center. Instead, Mr. Bush should move boldly ahead on a conservative governing vision."

Now, Gary, I seem to remember Ames, Iowa back in August of '99.

BAUER: I remember it too, Bill.

PRESS: You were there, Pat Buchanan was there, Steve Forbes was there, and Dan Quayle was there, and you guys were all saying George Bush wasn't conservative enough to lead this party. He won, you lost, Gary Bauer. Isn't it pretty clear the Republican Party doesn't want your stripe of politics?

BAUER: Well, that would be true, Bill, if George Bush ran as a moderate, but on all of the issues that matter, he ran as a conservative. He quoted Ronald Reagan frequently. He was good enough for most Republican voters, and the one that most Republican voters decided had the best chance of ending the last terrible eight years we've gone through.

The point that I'm trying to make is having run as a conservative, having run in favor of lower taxes, in favor of building up the defense, the defense of the United States, in saying that he's going to appoint judges like Scalia and Thomas, he ought to just keep his promises and do those things. That's the way to be a successful president.

SHAYS: Well, he can do that and still appoint Democrats who are moderate and conservative Democrats. He can include them as part of his...

BAUER: In fact, congressman, I would say that if he can find a couple of conservative Democratic senators to appoint that would be great, because it would give us the Senate.

SHAYS: Well, it depends what state they're from.

BAUER: That's true.

PRESS: But Gary, this statement's out there, the people where the pressure seems to be coming from -- the Reverend Jerry Falwell is outspoken today, you're outspoken today. I mean, sure, George Bush is conservative compared to me, but not compared to you guys. And yet he wasn't hanging around with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson during his campaign. It was pretty remarkable that he wasn't, you know, making a big deal...

SHAYS: You know, the...

PRESS: ... if I can finish, Chris. So what I'm saying is now, I mean, isn't -- I mean, isn't it -- isn't it pretty clear, be honest, that you and Pat Robertson and Jim Dobson, Jerry Falwell -- George Bush is not your friend. He's not that close to you, is he? And so why should you be calling the shots today?

SHAYS: You're getting carried away.

BAUER: You sure are, Bill. Look, Bill, the bottom line is...

PRESS: It's three against one here.

BAUER: The bottom line is that George Bush, having just gone through a terrible 35 days and yet prevailing at the end of it, is now going to be put through the wringer again, only this time it's a little bit different. This time he's being told, well, OK, you won, but the only way we're going to consider you to be legitimate is if you govern as if you were a centrist liberal.

(CROSSTALK)

That's what the media is saying. The media and people like Bill Press...

SHAYS: I think that's what you're saying.

BAUER: ... want George Bush to go as far to the center-left as they can possibly force him to go.

SHAYS: We...

BAUER: I want him to be a conservative, and I think he'll succeed if he's a conservative.

SHAYS: We have a margin of five Republicans in the House, we have 50-50 in the Senate. This president is going to be more able to get his conservative agenda across if he turns to moderate and conservative Democrats to move his agenda forward. And we're going to have to use their votes as well.

NOVAK: You know, I like...

BAUER: But Bill Press doesn't want George Bush to move his agenda forward...

NOVAK: He wants to kill it.

BAUER: ... Bill Press wants George Bush to do things that alienates his conservative base.

SHAYS: You need to come out of that and don't -- this is like an argument I had with my wife. She wanted six kids, I wanted three we ended up with one.

BAUER: Then you really do have a problem.

NOVAK: I don't want to get into this, but...

PRESS: I'm not sure who won that argument.

NOVAK: That is a case like Diogenes looking for an honest man. Looking for a conservative Democrat on Capitol Hill is a very tough thing.

PRESS: No.

NOVAK: But I want to try to find -- the kind of person you want in the Cabinet, I think one of the really noble figures in American politics, is John Ashcroft. He's noble because he could have made, he could have raised a constitutional question about being defeated by a dead man, and he said, no, he's not going to do it.

SHAYS: I think he's definitely someone who could be considered.

NOVAK: How about attorney general? Would he be a great attorney general?

SHAYS: I think he'd be a great attorney general.

NOVAK: So you don't have -- you don't mind what the ideology is then, I'm with you, as long as you're for the people who are conservatives.

SHAYS: No, because I think what he would do is he will carry out the wishes of the president of the United States.

NOVAK: But...

SHAYS: But...

NOVAK: I want to ask you one more question.

SHAYS: No, no, listen. I mean, it's almost a silly question. He's going to enforce the law, he's going to make sure we move in a more conservative agenda. But I think he recognizes -- he's experienced enough to know, he worked with Democrats in the Senate.

NOVAK: OK, last word.

BAUER: Well, what we need soon are some announcements out of Texas of good, strong conservatives like Ashcroft and others getting key positions.

NOVAK: What job do you want, Gary?

BAUER: I don't expect to be asked to take a job.

PRESS: But why do you need that?

BAUER: Because it's a conservative administration elected by conservative voters, Bill, and...

NOVAK: All right, that's the.

BAUER: ... we're serious about our conservatism.

NOVAK: That's the last word. Thank you very much, Congressman Shays, Mr. Bauer.

NOVAK: Don't miss your chance to debate tonight's guests, at CNN.com/CROSSFIRE following the show.

And after that, Bill Press -- after our break, Bill Press and I will be back with closing comments.

PRESS: Wait.

NOVAK: Everybody can hardly wait.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Now the result of tonight's online audience vote, we asked whether Bush should appoint Democrats to his Cabinet, only 51 percent of you said yes, and 49 percent said no -- what a perceptive bunch.

Bill, you know, the...

PRESS: Like the election returns -- closer.

NOVAK: ... the Democrats would never, ever even consider having a right-to-work Republican as secretary of Labor, but you say it's OK to have a pro-abortion Republican in at HHS or in the Justice Department. The thing is that liberals of your ilk are so pushy, you don't want just one party, you want both parties.

PRESS: Now let me just say something about -- you know what I say? I think George Bush ought to tell Jerry Falwell to go take a hike. Look, that's not his brand of conservatism and that's not where the American people are. You look at the presidential election, you look at the Senate, you look at the house, the people want this country governed in the middle. You look at Bill Clinton, it's a clear message.

NOVAK: Let me tell you a little piece of recent political history. John McCain told Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson take a hike, lost him the nomination. You cannot dump on your base, and you were -- Bill, you were a very unsuccessful Democratic chairman. You knew enough about it never to jump on the labor unions.

PRESS: That's why John McCain's one of my heroes.

From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE. Have a good weekend.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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