Crossfire

'Temptation Island': Tempting TV or Trash?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Tonight: Reality TV. The newest show, "Temptation Island," gets ready to lure viewers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS COWAN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "TEMPTATION ISLAND": We provided a exotic environment for everybody to hang out in. But we certainly did not try to push anybody to seduce anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Is it just harmless entertainment or a sign that our culture is going down the tubes?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Robert Novak. In the CROSSFIRE: Andrea Sheldon, executive director of the Traditional Values Coalition; and in Los Angeles, Gerald Nachman, former executive producer of "Politically Incorrect With Bill Maher."

PRESS: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

You say you are committed to the one you love. But if some gorgeous hunk walked into your life, how soon would you give your old boyfriend the boot? We are about to find out. In television's never- ending search for the bottom of the barrel, Fox TV launched tonight the latest of what are inappropriately called reality-TV shows. On "Temptation Island," debuting tonight, four supposedly seriously committed couples are thrown together with 26 single, unattached beautiful hunks and babes to see what happens, you know: who cheats, who doesn't.

This, of course, follows the success of "Survivor" and "Big Brother," and may soon be followed by "Chains of love," a show where one woman is handcuffed to several man at a time for an entire week until she chooses one, dumps them all, or calls 911. No wonder your TV screen is sizzling. Conservative groups are complaining about the latest fare, but are they overreacting? Will trash TV have any impact at all? Or is it just more mindless, tasteless entertainment?

Laura Ingraham, contributing editor to Voter.com is sitting in again tonight on the right.

Laura, welcome back. LAURA INGRAHAM, CO-HOST: Nice to be here, Bill.

First of all, I think we should say that we have made a lot of progress on television, because it used to be scantily clad woman: "Fantasy Island," "Love Boat," "Charlie's Angels." Now we have hunks, actually. We have ripped guys. And we get to see that at 9:00. So Andrea and I are very happy. And we will be tuning in.

Jerry Nachman, let's talk about what reality TV really is. I mean, isn't this really a misnomer, the idea that somehow setting up basically what's a Club Med -- which is highly edited, heavily produced, where power plays are pitted against each other -- I mean, reality television would be someone -- a couple going to Wal-Mart and getting into a fight over paint chips, wouldn't it be?

GERALD NACHMAN, FORMER EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "POLITICALLY INCORRECT": Well, more than that. I mean, you are absolutely right. This isn't reality television. As soon as they point a camera at you or me, something changes: how we dress, how we behave, how we talk. And we were very amused during "Survivor" to note that, if you saw still shots of the scenes of "Survivor," you see these people in this Robinson Crusoe surrounding, but they're surrounded by 12 crewmembers taking their pictures and eating McDonald's hamburgers.

There was nothing -- what reality means is it's not scripted. And it doesn't use professional actors and writers. And it's cheap.

(CROSSTALK)

NACHMAN: And it's popular.

INGRAHAM: Half of these guys are already -- are trying to get agents, by the way. So how reality is this? I want to read you something from Rabbi Kenneth Roseman, is one of the critic of these so-called reality series. And he said this recently. He said: "Every human being is faced with moral choices, temptations to make mistakes. But we're not faced with people who deliberately set out to undermine or distort our morals, particularly for ratings and profit. This is really offensive."

And, Jerry, my question to you is, you know, when gay groups got all upset about Dr. Laura, and letter-write-in campaigns and so forth, network executives were quick to take out their wrath and ire on Dr. Laura, right? And you can't imagine that would -- kind of programming would continue. But when Christian groups say: Wait a second, this is going a little bit too far -- and I'm not even saying that's not what I think -- but when they say that, suddenly it's: But it's good for ratings. This is what the public wants.

NACHMAN: Well, as they say in court: Counselor, what was the question in there? I think what Paramount.

ANDREA SHELDON, TRADITIONAL VALUES COALITION: Can I...

NACHMAN: I think what Paramount would say is that

(CROSSTALK)

INGRAHAM: No, isn't there a double-standard here? That is the question.

NACHMAN: Well, there's always been a double-standard. I mean, I think what's -- I think the double-standard is that we're criticizing this. There has always been popular entertainment in America. And in the technology of contemporary television, what you have is a multiplicity of choices. And while the booker of this show was talking to me about tonight's topic, I can tell you with a straight face that I was watching C-SPAN.

So we serve many publics. Twenty years ago, a guy came out to San Francisco, where I was working, and said he was going to do this all new TV station, this all news channel on television. And everybody thought it was heresy. So my point is, who is going -- what's the remedy? Who is going to fix this? Who -- do we want the government to remedy this? Do we want or Donna Shalala to say what is right? Do we want John Ashcroft to say what's right?

SHELDON: Can I jump in here?

PRESS: Yes.

NACHMAN: Sure.

SHELDON: This is ridiculous. You know, Hollywood, it's so incredible hypocritical. They want to shut down all kinds of industries, whether it's tobacco or whatever. It's because they want them to be responsible for their actions. You all refuse to be responsible for your actions, number one. And number two, I kind of beg to differ.

Although Bill and I are good friends, I don't agree this is just something that conservatives are concerned about. I think this is disgusting. It's stupid. And most Americans see it for what it is. It's not just conservatives. I don't know if the rabbi is conservative. It's not just evangelicals that are saying: This it dumb and stupid.

And it's also outrageous.

PRESS: But most -- and most of the organizations that I have seen that have enlisted people to protest these things are religious- right organizations. So let's talk particularly about...

SHELDON: Well, this rabbi, is he -- is he religious right?

PRESS: I didn't -- I don't know about the rabbi. I'm telling you, most of the organizations I've seen in the paper who have spoken out about this -- let's speak about "Temptation Island" in particular, because that's the one that starts tonight on Fox. I mean, we are seeing some scenes of it now. But before we get too outraged, you've got four unmarried couples...

SHELDON: That's right. PRESS: ... that are already -- obviously -- having sex before they're married. There are 26 single people. They are all consenting adults. They deliberately excluded any married couples because they didn't want to get into that. They even threw a couple out today because they lied. They had already had a baby and they didn't want them in there. So, I mean, really, what is morally wrong here, unless you say people should not be having sex at all?

SHELDON: Well, that's an issue. But number two, these people, I think, are probably a bunch of losers. They'll do anything to be on television.

PRESS: So?

SHELDON: I think that's pathetic. I think most Americans see it for what it is. What's also is sad, though, is -- is you know, we used to talk about screen tests. Movie stars would try out. You had to have a certain voice, a certain look. What do you have to have now? You have got to have a clean STD test to be on this show. That's pitiful. So it's even just about these people. It's also about the people that are putting this on.

PRESS: I'm not saying that these are -- that these people are all going to get the Academy Award.

SHELDON: They could try.

PRESS: But I'm asking, where is moral outrage, which is what is being expressed against this? Let me show you a little clip. This was Helen Fisher -- who is a professor for Rutgers University -- was on CNN's "EARLY EDITION" this morning. And she indicates that maybe this is just a side of humanity that we are just not too proud of. Here's what she says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HELEN FISHER, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: They have taken a look at 180 species of birds who do form pair bonds. And almost all of them are adulterous as well. So we are not only the creature on Earth that tries to goes from one kind of reproductive strategy -- pair bonding -- to adultery as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Birds do it. People do it.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Didn't you see "Washingtonian"? Bill Clinton is out, W.'s in. Adultery, you know -- this is actually not about adultery, because it's not about marriage.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Where is the moral outrage? INGRAHAM: Jerry, let's talk about what real entertainment is. I mean, I'm not going to sit here saying that this show is so outrageous, because I think the show -- you know, as Andrea said, it's just kind of -- it's probably stupid. It's probably not going to be renewed for another six episodes -- let's just hope. But when you look at the Nielsen charts from last week, you have shows that have been in the top ten that have consistently good writing, consistently good acting. You have "ER." You have stuff like "Fraiser," "Friends." I think that's entertainment.

And these shows -- which we give a lot of publicity to by talking to them on CROSSFIRE tonight -- and other shows all across cable television give them a P.R. boost. So they do well in the short term. But other than "Survivor," are these types of shows just going to be a flash in the pan?

NACHMAN: As long as they work. As long as quiz shows work, as long as these shows work -- television is a very derivative business. And yes, they will continue as long as they sell tickets. I mean, generically, right now, Laura, the most successful thing on television, as you know, is pro wrestling. And you have networks arguing who is going to have the rights and how many nights it is going to be on.

I mean, the hypocrisy here is with the American public, which holds its nose and then votes very, very democratically for these programs. And they have always been hypocritical about what they say versus what they buy.

INGRAHAM: But the problem is, is entertainment executives are quick to say: Look, we have a First Amendment right here. We are serving the public interest.

But on the other hand, they are a business. They admit that they are in this for the ratings. And there are lots of things that networks could put on the air for ratings. They could put public executions on. They could put shows about friendly racists that might be amusing. But that is never going to get on the air, right, Jerry? I mean, that's never going to get on the air.

NACHMAN: Phil Donahue has been suing several states for years to try to get permission to videotape or air live an execution. Now, his hidden agenda is, he thinks people will be so repulsed that it will result in the end of capital punishment in this country. I think he's 100 percent wrong. I think people will watch it for the same reasons Romans went to the Colosseum and watched the gladiators.

INGRAHAM: All right, but that begs the question: Should be it on? I mean, yes, people will watch all sorts of thing.

NACHMAN: That's a fair question. Should it be on?

INGRAHAM: I mean, but will it be on?

NACHMAN: But I think when you criticize a show like "Temptation," which we haven't seen, if I worked for FOX, I would say, look, we put a lot of other things on. We have a cable news network that loses a lot of money. We put "The Simpsons," we put "The X- Files," on, and we make it possible for you to watch the Giants versus the Minnesota Vikings this Sunday afternoon. So as I was always taught as a broadcaster, we serve many publics.

And there's an "s" at the end of that sentence. If you don't want to watch it, don't watch it.

PRESS: But isn't that -- isn't that the point, Andrea, in the end? I mean, should it be on? Who decides whether it should be on? In the end, the American people decide what should be on.

And whatever -- if you're talking about "Survivor" or "Big Brother," the adjectives that you would use, I probably would agree with all of it: disgusting, stupid, you know, whatever. But people watch them: Who's to blame?

SHELDON: Well, we'll see if people watch this show. I mean, I don't know.

But I want to come back to the point he made. He was talking about FOX, the network. There are two entities here: You've got FOX, the news, and you've got FOX, the trashy entertainment.

The people out in L.A. don't seem to get it. The people in New York that are running the news program do get it. People are watching their news, but people are going to turn off their entertainment.

PRESS: But in the end, you know, we all grew up with certain TV shows. I mean, you didn't have trash like this when I was around. But you know, so we had "I Love Lucy." I mean, what great moral values were there? I don't know...

NACHMAN: Bill -- Bill...

SHELDON: They were fun. What's wrong with having fun?

PRESS: They ended up -- they ended up getting -- they ended up -- they ended up getting divorced. But in the end, it's just a TV show.

NACHMAN: Bill...

PRESS: What's the big deal? -- Jerry.

NACHMAN: Let me move your point along a bit further. I think you and I are roughly the same age. And we were -- we were weaned and nurtured on the golden age of television. It was "I Love Lucy," it was "Life With Father," it was "I Remember Mama." It was "Lassie." It was "Flicka." That...

PRESS: It was Sid Caesar. It was Milton Berle.

NACHMAN: OK. Absolutely.

SHELDON: And there's nothing wrong with that. NACHMAN: Well, there wasn't. But let me make my point: that generation, me, that was raised on that television, you, 10 years later...

SHELDON: Producing -- they're producing garbage now.

NACHMAN: Can I -- can I please finish this sentence? I...

PRESS: You finish it and then she'll respond. OK. Go ahead, Jerry.

NACHMAN: If you're such a moralist, you've got to have better manners.

SHELDON: You've gotten the majority of the show.

PRESS: Well, one at a time. Go ahead, Jerry. Finish please.

NACHMAN: That generation that was raised on that television 10 years later in the '60s became the most nihilistic generation in the history of this country. We burned bras, we burned draft-cards, we burned flags, we drove two presidents out of office. No -- my point has always been, if there's such a cause-and-effect relationship between the kind of programming that's out there, how did that generation, raised on that wonderful wholesome family value television, turned into the crazies that we became 10 years later?

SHELDON: Wait a second.

PRESS: Go ahead, Andrea.

SHELDON: You know, we're talking about people in Hollywood who are basically morally bankrupt, putting this kind of stuff on for the almighty dollar. You don't want to be accountable for your actions. You are -- not everybody in your age group is producing this kind of garbage nor supports it.

NACHMAN: I'm not producing it either. I'm a mild-mannered reporter who overachieved. But I can describe it, and I don't want to be -- I don't want your organization telling my mother what she can watch, because that's worse than what I can watch.

PRESS: All right. We're going to take a quick break here. I'm not sure I appreciate being called a crazy by Jerry Nachman. But at any rate, I do come from that generation.

I want to tell you folks Andrea Shelton is going to stay around in our chatroom right after the show. So get ready to log on to cnn.com/crossfire and continue the debate.

When we come back, we'll continue by maybe talking also about violence. All the uproar about the sex, what about all the violence, the blood and gore on TV? What's wrong with that, when we come back?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

INGRAHAM: And welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Laura Ingraham of Voter.com sitting in on the right.

The question we're focusing on tonight is, how low can they go? Is the new reality show -- so-called "reality show," I might add -- "Temptation Island" contemptible or just Club Med with cameras?

Our guests tonight our Jerrold Nachman, former executive producer of "Politically Incorrect," and Andrea Sheldon, executive director of the Traditional Values Coalition -- Bill.

PRESS: Andrea, I do want to ask you about this violence, because this is what troubles me. You know, in Europe, a lot of sex but very little violence on television. I mean, here we've got -- let's take "The Sopranos." More violence, more profanity than any other show on television, or nudity also, by the way, and yet was rated No. 1 last year. I never heard any of these groups coming out against "Sopranos." I mean, what is the preoccupation with sex?

SHELDON: Well, eight -- I don't know if it's preoccupation with sex. No. 1, "The Sopranos" is on HBO, you've got to pay for, and this is -- this is other show is on 9 o'clock.

PRESS: It's on cable. You pay for it, you pay for FOX cable.

SHELDON: But not everybody pays. No, you have to pay extra for HBO. Not everybody pays for HBO. Kids are going to see this show, 9 o'clock, primetime.

It's just stupid. You know, this show is just really stupid. It's not even so much the...

PRESS: All right. If it's so stupid and if it's so bad, I just want to point out, and not all these shows, but this particular show happens to be on FOX, the most conservative of all the networks...

SHELDON: I know. That was my point.

PRESS: ... led by the most conservative guy in the media, Ruppert Murdoch.

You know, I read today these groups that were saying, we're going to boycott the sponsors. Why not boycott the network? Why not boycott Murdoch? Why don't you guys sit in on Murdoch's office? Why doesn't he practice what he preaches, by the way?

SHELDON: Well, I don't know what he preaches as far as moral issues. He does have -- he does have a balanced news show, shows, network.

PRESS: But he's putting trash on his network.

SHELDON: But Fox -- Fox is split between the news -- that's what I was saying earlier -- and...

PRESS: He runs them both. Don't get him off the hook.

SHELDON: ... and Hollywood. PRESS: He runs them both.

SHELDON: I'm not necessarily getting him off the hook, but I do appreciate what they're doing on the news side. We do not appreciate what they're doing on the Hollywood side. And there is a difference in who's running those two entities.

INGRAHAM: Jerry, I'm a big "Sopranos" fan myself, so I like all the violence in "Sopranos" and all the psychoanalysis in "Sopranos." It's great.

NACHMAN: There's a lot of sex -- there's a lot of sex in "Sopranos," too.

INGRAHAM: Well, There is a lot of great programming out there. There's a lot of great stuff coming out of Hollywood and elsewhere. I'm not -- I'm not one of these conservatives who thinks, oh, bash, the entertainment industry, that's where it's at. I think that's old and that's over and it's done. But it seems to me that in at least what we're seeing lately with these so-called "reality shows," Hollywood is just stealing from old European formulas. You know, the Netherlands, London, where "Survivor" and "Big Brother," all these shows originally originated.

NACHMAN: "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?"

INGRAHAM: Exactly. And is it just -- it used to be that Europe stole from us. I mean, they're still running "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" in the Netherlands. So you know, now we're stealing from Europe. I mean, is it just, you know, a cycle or are we getting lazy?

NACHMAN: Well, I think the problem is that there's this maw. You know, when we were back to -- young Bill Press and I would have to get up from the coach, walk across the room and go click, and change the channel, and there were three choices. And now we sit there with a remote and do this, and there's 90 channels, and we say there's nothing but crap on.

So thanks to cable, thanks to satellite, there's this huge maw out there, and a lot of stuff -- and I guess that's the word I can use on cable -- has to be shoveled in to satisfy that maw.

And what they found out from reality television is not only is it cheap, not only do you own it, not only is it not controlled by the major studios, but it seems to be strike proof. And as you know, that's a looming issue out here that in the string there may be a strike of writers and actors.

INGRAHAM: But getting back to the point of whether there's, you know, this persistent double-standard and moral outrage in Hollywood, because there's all sorts of outrage about showing smoking on television, showing excessive drinking, showing acceptable, you know, racist or politically incorrect behavior. We'd never have an "All in the Family" today, right? We'd never have a show like "All in the Family."

NACHMAN: No, you're right. And remember...

INGRAHAM: It would never happen, but...

NACHMAN: Remember, I'm on the same side as -- I'm on the same side as you are. I don't know why you can't smoke on television.

INGRAHAM: And I understand that. But when groups -- but when groups like Andrea's, you know, step forward and say, look, this is -- this is a little bit beyond the pale, I mean, I don't happen to agree with her on everything, but on that point, she might have a valid point. And yet when gay groups protest, it's like, oh, whatever you want to do, whatever you say.

NACHMAN: Well, obviously there's a political correctness issue, and people who are politically correct have more clout out there, because you know what this town is like.

My problem is I don't want anybody doing this. I want the marketplace and I want the good sense of the people who are broadcasters coming up with this. And you know what? They're going to screw up, and some of it's going to be crap. But you put it all on a scale, and you say to someone like FOX, who does a lot of good stuff, OK.

I mean, when Paley was alive, when William Paley, the chairman of CBS, was alive, he used to get very offended at some of his own programming, like "The Beverly Hillbillies" and "Petticoat Junction." And the people around him said, "Mr. Paley, that pays for a lot of CBS News and omnibus." And he lived with it, because he served many publics.

SHELDON: Jerry's talking about they are politically correct. What he's saying is that they're right and other people are wrong. I totally disagree with that, and he again has this self-righteous attitude that we don't have a right to say that this type of stuff is stupid, and that it's -- maybe that it's wrong and objectionable. And again, this is not just conservative Christian people saying it. I think the majority of Americans.

And again, it comes back to this attitude of, you know, let us do what we want, we don't want to be responsible for the kind of garbage that we put out, whether it's violence...

NACHMAN: I don't know how -- I don't know how to disagree, because she's a bad listener. What I essentially said was that she's right, a lot...

SHELDON: No, you are...

NACHMAN: Just let me finish. That a lot of this stuff is awful. But this is America, and if you're serious about the First Amendment, this is what you put up with.

I also said, agreeing with Laura, that the politically correct side of the coin, the people who are on the other side politically from you, have had more success keeping what they like off television. So...

PRESS: OK, Andrea -- just running out of time here, Jerry. I just want to ask Andrea sort of wrapping up. You said a little bit earlier that these people -- I mean, I don't -- we've all used the phrase so-called "reality TV." I mean, No. 1, these situations aren't real. No. 2, these people aren't real. They're the phoniest -- name any of them, "Survivor," any of them. They're the funniest bunch of people I ever saw...

SHELDON: Right.

PRESS: And they're all people who are trying to get into commercials or they want to be...

SHELDON: They just want to be on TV.

PRESS: ... actors or actresses.

SHELDON: Yes.

PRESS: So I come back to the basic point is, why is it worth protesting?

Let these bozos go on there, make fools of themselves, let the idiots watch it, and let's move on to some more important issues.

SHELDON: Well, I'm going to do something important tonight. I'm going to spend this evening with my husband for his birthday. I'm not going to watch that garbage, and I would bet a lot of Americans won't.

They may -- or some may watch it, and you know, turn it off because it's stupid. But we...

PRESS: But is it really worth protesting?

SHELDON: I'm not -- I mean, our organization hasn't said, you know, we're going to protest. I think people are wising up and they're realizing, I'm not going -- maybe they won't buy the products of the sponsors and maybe they'll send letters in.

It's -- you know, this show is stupid. These people are, you know, my estimation they're losers.

PRESS: All right. Well, we're all winners here, and we have better stuff to watch tonight. But we won't give any shameless plugs right here.

INGRAHAM: I'm watching -- I'm watching -- I'm admitting right now, I'm watching...

PRESS: OK...

(CROSSTALK)

SHELDON: ... husband. PRESS: Andrea Sheldon, thanks so much for joining us tonight. Hey, Jerry Nachman, thank you so much for coming in again. Good to have you out there as our resident critic on the West Coast.

Laura Ingraham and I, we'll be -- we're survivors. We'll be right back. Tempted or Not?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: All right. Again, don't miss your chance to join Andrea Sheldon. She'll be in our chatroom tonight right after the show. Cnn.com/crossfire is the place.

Laura, I've got to tell you, frankly, I'd rather read a book, you know, or watch "THE SPIN ROOM."

INGRAHAM: Oh, please, you're watching it. You're going to be watching. You're going to be in your office downstairs. You're going to have that on. You're going to be preparing for "SPIN ROOM" as you always do, assiduously.

PRESS: I will not. But you know what? Jerry Nachman was right on point tonight. I've got to tell you, as long as people will go to casinos or continue to build them, as long as people will watch this junk on television they're going to continue to produce it. There's nobody to blame but the idiots who tune it in.

INGRAHAM: Well, and I say -- what I'm going to do? Watch "The McLaughlin Group" to see ripped men? I don't think so. I'm going to be watching "Temptation Island," because there will be some good- looking -- no, I'm just kidding.

This stuff is silliness. It's probably not going to go beyond six episodes. Maybe it won't even go beyond two episodes if it's not working.

But what -- I mean, what's the debate here? I just don't think it's -- I just think it's bad television. There's lots of good television to watch.

PRESS: The point is that Abraham Lincoln was wrong. You can fool all the people all the time, and television is proving it.

INGRAHAM: This is reality TV.

PRESS: And I don't -- I don't like it. I don't watch it. But you know what? Hey, if people want to be idiots, let them go. And remember, birds do it, too.

INGRAHAM: Oh, that's -- that's pathetic.

PRESS: From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE. See you on "THE SPIN ROOM" at 10:30.

INGRAHAM: And from the reasonable right -- I'm just doing that every night now -- I'm Laura Ingraham. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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