TalkBack Live

Reality TV: Where Do We Go From Here?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRIS COWAN, CO-EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "TEMPTATION ISLAND": I mean, there is an appetite for them.

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BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: What does a taste for so-called "reality TV" say about you?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "TEMPTATION ISLAND")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm thinking about my girlfriend doing wild things with another guy.

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MARK BURNETT, CREATOR/PRODUCER, "SURVIVOR": Unscripted nonfiction drama without actors. We call it "dramality."

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BATTISTA: Critics have other words for it, especially FOX's latest sail into the real world, "Temptation Island": words like "immoral," "sadistic" and "cynical."

The premise? Couples in serious relationships expose themselves to seduction.

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COWAN: We certainly did not encourage sex, but we didn't discourage it either.

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BILL CARTER, "NEW YORK TIMES": If one of these relationships really does break up because of this television show, I mean, what have they done? It's a big contrivance for the sake of making some people feel like it's, you know, a sexy, kind of edgy experience for them to watch.

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BATTISTA: Who do these shows appeal to?

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Voyeur verite. Nouveau voyeur. We could come up with all kinds of pretentious names.

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BATTISTA: And what do you call people who watch them?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

Naked emotions, half-naked bodies, veiled intentions: What would you be willing to expose on national television? Or are you happy enough to watch others doing it?

While our audience was being seated today, they watched some of last nights's premiere episode of FOX's "Temptation Island." How tempting is it? Are they tempted again to watch again?

Let me go to the audience quickly and ask Brandon. You saw it last night, right? What did you think?

BRANDON: I wasn't particularly entertained.

BATTISTA: And why not?

BRANDON: The show just didn't live up to the expectations I got from the advertisements.

BATTISTA: So you wanted more than what you got?

BRANDON: I would have liked a little more salacious programming. I mean, you're not -- you're not tuning in for quality literature or quality entertainment. You're just trying to get some cheap -- a cheap thrill, I guess.

BATTISTA: Thrill. OK, let me go to...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Natison (ph).

BATTISTA: Natison.

NATISON: I didn't particularly care for the program, either. I just -- I don't see the point of four couples going on an island to test their commitment to each other. They should know before they go if they're committed or not.

BATTISTA: All right. Let's meet our guests, now. I'm sure a lot of you remember Susan, Susan Hawk.

SUSAN HAWK, FORMER CAST MEMBER, "SURVIVOR": Hi. BATTISTA: Hi, Susan. How are you? Can we move up on that a little bit, here?

HAWK: Good, thank you.

BATTISTA: Can you hear me OK, Susan?

HAWK: Yes, I can, ma'am.

BATTISTA: OK, she's one of the -- as you know, one of the castaways in CBS's hit reality show "Survivor." She has since, by the way, been a guest co-host on "Live With Regis," and she's appeared on "Hollywood Squares."

Also with us is Morton Downey Jr., former host of "The Morton Downey Jr. Show," as many of you may remember, which caused a lot of controversy in its time.

Susan, let me go to you first. I assumed you taped or watched this show, "Temptation Island," last night. What did you think of this genre, and how it's morphed from "Survivor"?

HAWK: As far as working off "Survivor," I don't think it does, because you don't have no physical or sports challenges. As far as reality TV, yes, that's what it is. I thought it was kind of boring myself, but maybe it'll start getting juicier next week. And as far as these people being totally committed to each other, if they were, they would have been married a long time ago.

BATTISTA: I know "Temptation Island" is different from "Survivor," but I know a lot of people wonder, what motivates you to do a show like "Survivor"? Why did you do it?

HAWK: I did it for the prize, for the game, and for the adventure, to go someplace in the world where I would never have a chance to go to in my life as just a regular middle-class working woman.

BATTISTA: What do you think about the new "Survivor" that's starting next week?

HAWK: Hey, I'm excited about it. I'm looking forward to watching it, and not reliving it, yes.

BATTISTA: Do you wish you were there again?

HAWK: No, I did that. I did that.

BATTISTA: Been there, done that.

HAWK: Been there, done that. Give me some snow and woods, and maybe I'll try it again.

BATTISTA: OK. Let me ask you about one thing, because I know the audience is curious about this, and I am curious as to whether you had any regrets about that final episode. And I want to run the tape to remind the audience of what happened during that episode, when you basically ripped Kelly's head off in this. So let's roll the tape and take a look this one more time from this final episode of "Survivor."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SURVIVOR")

HAWK: ... openly nice person. I'm just frank, forward, and tell you the way it is. To have you sit there next to me, and me lose $900,000 just to stomp on somebody like this. But as the game went along and the two tribes merged, you lied to me, which showed me what the true person that you are.

You're very two-faced and manipulative to get where you are at anywhere in life. That's why you fail all the time.

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BATTISTA: That clip, we might say, Susan, doesn't even begin to show how vitriolic you got with Kelly. Now that some time has passed, do you have any regrets about that episode, that final episode at all?

HAWK: No. I have no regrets about it. But I'm over it. I mean, I'm through that part of the game. That's the way I am in real life. If I have something to say, I say it the best way I know how. And then, five minutes later, I'm over it, and let's go on and get back to work.

BATTISTA: Are you friends with Kelly at all?

HAWK: Yes, me and Kelly associate when we have dealings going on. As far as being able to call these people and talk to them and have time for that, no, I don't. It's just a matter of business is when I talk to them.

BATTISTA: All right. Let me bring Mort into the conversation here. Morton, you undoubtedly, during your day, were, you know, you were the king of controversial television with your show. What do you think about what's going on in television today?

MORTON DOWNEY JR., FORMER TV TALK SHOW HOST: Well, Bobbie, it's all entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with entertainment as long as you don't hold it out to be reality. That's not reality. Reality is what you see there. Reality is "Mary Tyler Moore." Reality is having a fight on the Downey show with Al Sharpton. Reality is presenting Gloria Allred the world (ph) for the first time. Professor Alan Dershowitz. Reality is having Lyndon LaRouche arrested on the show and later being sentenced to eight years in jail for cheating his donors.

That's reality. Face reality. Don't try and hide it. Don't try and say it doesn't exist. It does, and unfortunately, it's getting worse and worse.

Reality next will be two people fornicating absolutely nude on the set of this show and appearing to applaud each other for who has the biggest. Now, if you're going to show the biggest, I'm off the show already.

BATTISTA: I don't think that's going to happen on this show, anytime soon.

DOWNEY: But people are waiting for it to happen, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: I'm with you on that. One of the questions we have to ask is, you know, how low can you go?

DOWNEY: Oh, they'll go lower.

BATTISTA: Did you watch "Temptation Island," by the way, or not?

DOWNEY: I did. I watched it last night because you asked me to.

BATTISTA: Sorry.

DOWNEY: I find no reason not to watch it. I do find reason, and I hope nobody gives me the old, "use the J-tip, Downey." J-cube. No, I want television to have some responsibility to what they let my seven-year-old daughter look at on television. And if they don't, to hell with you, I don't want to watch you.

BATTISTA: What now -- your show was on television, though, and someone else's 7-year-old daughter was watching your show, they have been offended by your show. Did you get -- did you have any problems, ethically, with what you were doing back then?

DOWNEY: I didn't, then, but I do now. I did not then, but I do now. Do I regret having done it? As a matter of fact, no. I'm glad I did, simply because there's a judgment border, now. There's something people can say, "This is how far he thinks should go." I think "Mary Tyler Moore" was a good show. "Oh, Downey's a square." It's real life. Little-by-little-by-little, Bobbie, they've started chipping the real life away.

BATTISTA: You know, I loved "Mary Tyler Moore," too. I wanted to be "Mary Tyler Moore" when I was growing up. And I did work in a news room, and I'm not sure it was quite like that, so.

DOWNEY: They're as bad as anyone else.

BATTISTA: There was some degree of fiction to "Mary Tyler Moore," but Susan, are you still with us, there?

HAWK: Yes, I am.

BATTISTA: Who do you think watches these kinds of shows?

HAWK: I think, 90 percent of middle America watches these kinds of shows, because Middle America likes football, likes baseball, likes WWF wrestling. We like sports. We go our fairs. We go to social events, and if you ask a lot people their favorite pastime, is watching people. So, this is just evolution in the human mind. We -- TV's going to change. It has to, because we're changing.

BATTISTA: Patsy in our audience has a question for you.

PATSY: Actually, I have two questions, Susan. My first question is, on a deep-down moral and ethical level, in what way has this experience changed your life?

HAWK: Actually, deep down ethical way, it hasn't, because I consider -- I was deep, and knew myself before I went to the island. The way it has, I perceived myself -- I got to watch myself, and I've come to the conclusion I really like myself, and I'm comfortable with who I am.

As far as changing my life, I got air-mar (ph) cards now. I never had that before.

BATTISTA: OK. We've got to take a quick break here. And by the way, if "Temptation Island" is a reality show, where are all the fat, balding, and wrinkled people, is what I'd like to know? Anyway, that is the view of our next guest, we might add, who wonders why breaking up these relationships has been turned into fun sport.

By the way, what did you watch last night? Go to CNN.com/talkback, take our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote. Did you watch Ken Burns's "Jazz," for example, or "Temptation Island"? "The West Wing"? CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE"? Or "Jack and Jill"? We'll be right back.

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BATTISTA: Almost 50,000 applications were submitted to CBW for "Survivor II," more than eight times the 6,100 who applied for the original show. Our cameramen are not fat, bald, and wrinkled. They might have -- by the way, we just got in the overnight rating for "Temptation Island," and it did win its time slot and beat all the other shows that were running last night.

On the phone with us from Dallas, Texas, now, is Rabbi Kenneth Roseman, the senior Rabbi at Temple Shalom. He has written a very critical column on "Temptation Island," that's appeared now, In the Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and The Christian Science Monitor.

Rabbi, thanks for joining us.

RABBI KENNETH ROSEMAN, TEMPLE SHALOM: It's my pleasure.

BATTISTA: You are very angry about this show. Why?

ROSEMAN: Oh, I'm not angry. I'm very disturbed, and it portrays the way we are supposed to deal with relationships, as a game. Relationships are way more serious than that. These are not things that we can make sport of, that can destroy casually, that we can exploit, that we can manipulate, that are of the subject of boosting ratings and making profits.

BATTISTA: But I guess the argument could be made that people who are in -- young people in particular -- who are in unmarried relationships, do all of those things in real life.

ROSEMAN: I suppose so, but to set it up as a deliberate attempt, for the sole purpose breaking up the relationships, no matter what the heads of Fox Networks say -- Fox Broadcast Network. It just is wrong.

BATTISTA: Where do you think the greatest amount of harm is being done? Do you think it's to the people in -- the participants on the show? The people who are watching? Society in general? What do you think, is there a cause-and-effect there, or?

ROSEMAN: Well, I think the people who are on the show, got themselves into it with foreknowledge. Whatever happens to them is of their own doing. And, while I may feel sorry for their pain at times, I don't feel too sorry. They're not really admirable folks, in many respects. But, there is a message that's conveyed, very subtle, very subliminally, at times, to a large viewing public and to our society, that says, "If you don't like the way your neighbor is in a relationship, go for it. It's fair game to break it up. Cause whatever pain you want. That's OK." And that's not OK with me.

BATTISTA: Susan, do you think that's the message that's getting across?

HAWK: No, I don't agree with that, Rabbi. I would -- all I think of "Temptation Island" is a matter of what you see every weekend at the singles' bar. Just put a different environment.

ROSEMAN: Well, you know, I haven't been in a singles' bar in 40 years, so I may not have a very good fix on that. But as a representative of one of America's significant religious traditions, I don't have to be quite, and pander to the lowest common denominator. I think we as a society have to begin to stand up for higher values and better morals.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience, here. Brandon, do you want to comment?

BRANDON: I have a -- just the general idea of TV having responsibility to the public, I disagree with. They have a responsibility to get ratings. Their job is to get viewers. I don't need some faceless network executive to tell me what I should or should not watch, what is right and what is wrong. By showing these people, it just shows me how ridiculous they are. I would never do that in a committed relationship, and I don't think many intelligent people would. I don't think you're giving people enough credit.

DOWNEY: Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Go ahead, Mort.

DOWNEY: I'm not quite sure that I disagree with these people having the right to do the show. I'm all in favor of that. I think what they should do, is each individual who is on the show should state their reason for being on the show, as a forward to the opening of the program. Then, everybody knows she's on to make money, he's on to get a little action, et cetera, et cetera. So at the end of the show, we can see what changes have been made.

BATTISTA: I think they kind of do that, at the beginning. They kind of talk about why, you know, they're doing the show, and I think it's kind of obvious why most of them are doing it. I know, Susan, I have a question about how contrived these shows are. In other words, like last night, we saw one of the girls -- one of the couples, the woman in the relationship, she was like crying already, and the show hadn't even started. You know, she's crying about her relationship possibly breaking up already, and I thought to myself, "Oh come on, now. Is that real? Or...

DOWNEY: She smelled that fifty grand.

BATTISTA: I don't know if they're getting money for this.

DOWNEY: I'll bet there's money someplace.

HAWK: Yes, there's the money someplace. Probably they're hoping they get famous afterwards, and make a bunch of money off of endorsements, or whatever. But I've seen that, too, and I was like, Wow. Maybe she's like that in real life. Chances are, she is.

BATTISTA: Well, are you guys encouraged -- are you guys encouraged on these types of shows, to be emotional, or to, you know, kind of up the emotional ante, if you will?

DOWNEY: Good question.

HAWK: Actually, all I can talk is from "Survivor I," that I was on. There were no -- as far as emotional encouragement. No, it was just the environment that they put you in, the games they -- the grueling games they put you through, limiting your food. Actually, if they tear on you physically, they are going to break you down mentally.

BATTISTA: When a guy drops out of an airplane, do they hope that his chute doesn't open, or do they really want it to open? There's the extremeness of it.

HAWK: Yes. I think they hope that the chute opens; there was no way they were going to let us die. They were all over, if something was wrong.

BATTISTA: That's really good to know. Bryce (ph) in North Carolina is on the phone with us. Bryce, go ahead.

BRYCE: Yes, Bobbie, as young person watching this show -- I'm a college student -- the way I know that we think -- that people I know would think, is that, say hey, you know what? You go on this island, it's OK to cheat on your spouse, or your --

BATTISTA: They're not married.

BRYCE: Or not married, excuse me, but your significant person in your life, you know, because, say hey, you can always blame it on the show, later on. BATTISTA: They have made the premise, actually, that all of these couples are on the brink, meaning that their relationship could go either way. So, when they say that they are in committed relationships, there's quotes around that committed. It just means they've been together, you know, for at least a year or more. So, you know, we should say that, because I think anybody who thinks these are truly committed couples, that's a false premise on this show. Morally, I have less problems with it than I do -- I'll -- you know, are you comfortable, Susan, with people watching your emotions. In other words, I was uncomfortable last night, watching this girl's pain. And obviously, this is going to get worse -- watching people's pain and humiliation. I wasn't comfortable with that.

HAWK: You know, Bobbie, after I -- the show was over, and I watched it air, and especially when they showed me crying, it was hard for me the next day, to go to work and see that everybody's seen me at my most vulnerable -- but it was very truthful. And, I think with the reality shows, they don't put on boring characters. They are true-to- life characters, so maybe America can identify with us more, and relate with us more, because real-life characters outlive fictional characters.

DOWNEY: Amen. Oh, Amen. They sure do.

BATTISTA: Len and Sue. You know what, I've got to take a quick break, so we'll due Len and Sue's question as soon as we get back. All right? Back in a moment.

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BATTISTA: On "Survivor II: The Australian Outback," the tribe members range from a 222-year-old administrative assistant, to a 53- year-old high school shop teacher. There's a fitness instructor, two army officers, a varsity softball player, and two active runners.

Some e-mails, here. Robert says: "Television has always reflected who we are as a society. It just so happens, this is who we are, today." Troy says, "The only temptation is to change the channel on this very boring show." And Pam in Oregon says: "I watch real reality TV: Discovery Channel, National Geographic, and PBS."

Lena Sue (ph), your question?

LENA SUE: Thank you. As an antique baby-boomer, and I think that the educated audience, was the old-fashioned, the news, chicken-noodle news, was about the news, about what things were going on. The reality TV that we have today, to me is atrocious. I agree with the Rabbi. It's like Susan is an onion. Well, a little bit of onion is fine, in a meatloaf. But I don't want that onion smeared in my face, and make me -- you know -- if you want to make me cry, that's reality, but don't put the onion in my eyeball.

BATTISTA: I'm not sure where to go with that. I'm don't think Susan knows. . .

DOWNEY: Rub that onion in the eyeballs. BATTISTA: I understand what you're saying. Let me bring in one more voice, here. Joining us now is James Poniewozick. He is the TV critic for Time magazine. James, good to have you with us.

JAMES PONIEWOZICK, "TIME": Thank you.

BATTISTA: Is there -- where is the harm in this, or are we making a big deal out of not much?

PONIEWOZICK: I think some people are making a little bit of a big deal out of not much. I opened my "New York Times," this morning, and saw a New York Times editorial on the left side of the page, decrying "Temptation Island," and I just had to think, it had to be an awfully slow news week for the editorial board of The New York Times to have nothing to do better than this. I do agree with the Rabbi earlier, about several elements of the show that seem disturbing, but I don't think that I would go so far as to say that this is doing something harmful to society, or undermining our morality.

BATTISTA: Rabbi, I'll let you answer that, quickly.

ROSEMAN: You mentioned the fact that the show has already caused some pain to one person, and that it's likely to get worse. One the things that really disturbs me is the fact that we have a show here that intends, deliberately intends, to put people in a position where they will have pain and hurt. We have a word for that; it's called "sadism." Sadism is not a part of any of our religious or ethical traditions. I don't believe we should have a show that intends to cause pain.

PONIEWOZICK: Bobbie?

BATTISTA: Go ahead, James.

PONIEWOZICK: Bobbie, if I can respond. I agree about the sadistic nature of the show, but the Rabbi earlier was also talking about the moral effect of the audience, as seeing this behavior demonstrated. And I don't think as simple as that. The show is called "Temptation Island" for a reason. You are tempted to do something bad, not something morally good. The whole idea of appreciating the show is premised on the fact that there is a system of good and evil, in which being faithful is good, and cheating is bad. In fact, if you don't understand -- if you don't accept that -- the show doesn't make any sense. I tend to agree with the audience member earlier, who said that we are drawn to watch this show. It doesn't meant that we would do this, in a million years.

BATTISTA: What does it say, if anything, about people who like to watch this kind of show?

PONIEWOZICK: I think it says a number of things: One, possibly that some just find it entertaining in a car-crash sort of way, like an episode of Jerry Springer. I mean, you know, I think it's also true that -- and I don't really defend "Temptation Island" as television. I do think it is sort of bad television, boring, shallow, exploitive. Better reality television, I think, and I would put "Survivor" among this, does have some appeal too, in that you see sort of deeper issues worked out. Maybe not, you know, on the level of, you know, Dostoyevsky, or whatever, but above the level of simple exploitative entertainment.

DOWNEY: Rabbi, reality is reality, simply for one thing: it's happening in front of your eyes, and there's nothing you can do to stop it, once it's out there.

ROSEMAN: Can I respond to that?

DOWNEY: Yes, sir.

ROSEMAN: There is nothing real about this show. If you were to go out to any public place in America, and collect 26 people, you would not get the hard-bodied, attractive young people that are on this show. This is manipulative; this is exploitive; this is contrived. They have set this thing up to produce a certain effect.

DOWNEY: I'm sure they have, Rabbi. But I disagree with you.

ROSEMAN: This is fantasy television, and unscripted television.

DOWNEY: Life is fantasy.

ROSEMAN: This is not reality, and if you think life is fantasy, you've got your head in the wrong place.

DOWNEY: And please explain where that is?

ROSEMAN: Well I don't know, frankly, because life is a lot of people wrestling with real problems, in a mature and responsible way, not playing a game with each other's relationships.

BATTISTA: Maybe that's part of the appeal, Rabbi. That, you know, kind of the same appeal that soap operas have for people, in the sense that, you know, if we watch other people wrestling with these seemingly pretty hideous problems, that maybe ours aren't so bad.

ROSEMAN: Jerry Springer?

BATTISTA: Yes, Jerry Springer, you watch one episode of Jerry Springer, and you think, boy, I thought I had problems, you know, and.

DOWNEY: Bobbie, you had people coming on my show, getting arrested -- arrested because they had raped someone; arrested because they had stolen. Very famous people, who I promised in lawsuits, I wouldn't mention.

HAWK: Rabbi?

ROSEMAN: Yes.

HAWK: You were talking about the satanic end of it. . .

ROSEMAN: No, no, no, sadistic, not satanic.

HAWK: Sadistic, I'm sorry.

ROSEMAN: I never used the word "satanic."

HAWK: OK. Sadistic. The young man in the audience, I think, hit the nail on the head. TV medium is a consumer market. They are in business to make money, and these reality TV shows pretty much, if they get the ratings, they make money, because they get the sponsors for them, so that is what's running America, the almighty dollar.

ROSEMAN: That may be true, but I don't have to be quiet in face of evil.

DOWNEY: Rabbi, I remember at one point where they took that guy who played the drunk off television because we didn't want anyone seeing someone being drunk. Good lord, you had Adolf Mongu (ph), you had all kinds of drunks before that. So reality became more and more and more in your face and nobody stopped it.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here. We'll talk about how low television can go. Rabbi Roseman, thank you very much for joining us today.

ROSEMAN: I'm going to have to leave now.

BATTISTA: Yes, I appreciate your views. Thank you for joining us.

ROSEMAN: OK. Bye-bye. Thanks.

BATTISTA: We'll be back in just a moment.

The Canadian Live Network will debut "The Lofters" next week. That show allows viewers to interact with a group of people living on- camera 24 hours a day in a shared loft.

The participants can be watched over the Web any time, will answer emails from viewers and will provide Internet broadcasts on a variety of topics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: On the phone with us was Robert Thompson, head of the Center for the Study of Popular Television at Syracuse University. Thank you for joining us also. Your take on "Temptation Island."

ROBERT THOMPSON, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POPULAR TELEVISION, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: Well, of course it was a new frontier of bad taste on American network television. And I'm certainly not going to defend that it was anything but sleazy. There's a lot of really good TV on American television, "The Practice" consistently scores in the top 10.

But every now and then, we like to wallow in the mire and FOX is pleased to give us this opportunity. I think for the most part however, this stuff so far at least is relatively harmless. As a matter of fact, some of it's really good. I think "Survivor" was a rip-roaring good story. I think the rats and snakes soliloquy was some of the best writing on television in a long time, and there was nothing about that show. I don't think you could have sat down with an 8-year-old with and not been completely comfortable.

"Temptation Island" is an entirely different situation. It was a sleazy show, and of course, that's the reason we tuned in. Sometimes we like this kind of stuff. In the end, however, the moral of the story, as the moral of the story of "Who wants to Marry a Multimillionaire?" -- which was if you marry for money it will blow up in your face. "Temptation Island" is about dealing with people who are having these temptations -- and temptation is a big theme that goes back to Adam and Eve. And in the end it's a bad thing. It makes them unhappy. Putting themselves in this position is considered something that makes them sad.

And in the end, these things are little morality tales like we used to hear in Sunday school. They're just dressed up in some really sleazy packages.

DOWNEY: Oh, baby, are you right.

BATTISTA: I'm just curious, I want to ask James and Robert quickly how low though do you think this programming will go. Do we keep dropping the bar on this until - I mean what are we waiting for? Just actually to see somebody you know killed on television?

PONIEWOZICK: Executed on television.

DOWNEY: We wait until we have another Jenny Jones.

THOMPSON: Bobbie, this is Robert Thompson. I think - there's that tendency I think that everybody has for this paranoia of the domino effect. There's this show coming out called "Manhunt," which is going to have a bunch of people hunting each other on island with paint guns. And everybody says, well, if they do "Manhunt" with paint guns, the next thing we'll see is they'll be doing it with real bullets.

Well, of course, you can't do it with real bullets. That's illegal. They would be hauled into court and they'd be arrested.

DOWNEY: But it was illegal eight years ago when in Argentina they did snuff television, and that was where you actually kill someone.

THOMPSON: Well, (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I think there is going to be a limit. We're not going to show gladiator shows. We're not going to have people dying.

However, I will say this: I think probably we have not quite got to the ends of the envelope. I think "Temptation Island" may not be as bad as it gets.

BATTISTA: Do you guys remember when Court TV tried to come out with that show that was like, you know, confessions from death row killers or this kind of thing... THOMPSON: Yes.

BATTISTA: ... where these guys were talking about it in horrible details about these crimes? You know, that lasted one show. I mean, so the public does have -- they do have a breaking point.

DOWNEY: That's right.

PONIEWOZICK: Yes, there was a tremendous outcry and they took it off. And I think Robert's correct that there's a certain line that none of these shows really cross, which is the volition, the willingness of the participants.

You know, in a way you can say that what, you know, "Candid Camera" was doing in the '50s and '60s, surprising people unbeknownst to them, crossed that line more than any of these shows did, however, tacky they are in other respects.

BATTISTA: There's a new take on that show too, coming out, as I recall. Isn't it something where it's like they do something to somebody unbeknownst to them, and you know, something where it practically gives you a heart attack, like you hit someone with a car you think it's real. And then they tell you, oh, just kidding. I think there's a show like that coming out.

DOWNEY: Oh, that's nice.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: That's horrible. That's kind of horrible.

Scott, you had a question or a comment?

SCOTT: I was thinking about the people's whose job it is to actually tempt the couples. Where's the line between that, and you know, prostitution? I mean that seems awfully dehumanizing to those people, like that's...

BATTISTA: Well, I don't know, if you're in a bar and you're flirting -- well, you know, most people probably wouldn't flirt with somebody else's date, though, in a bar, but they're told to do that.

(LAUGHTER)

Oh, well, maybe I haven't been in a bar in a while.

DOWNEY: Forty years, you and the rabbi.

BATTISTA: Not that long. Geez!

Todd.

TODD: I just had a thought. You know, "Survivor," everybody had something to gain from it, fame or fortune, money. But in this show, it looks like it's out to destroy a lot of people. And I don't know what the people get out of it. THOMPSON: Well, you know, I'm not so sure though that destroying people is (UNINTELLIGIBLE). For one thing, FOX didn't come up to people who were, you know, sharing a soda at a fountain and start parading hard bodies in front of them. Everybody who went onto this I think already was in a certain place in their relationship where they we were ready to do something like for whatever reason.

And of course, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) news that has been coming out -- I'm not sure if it's true or not -- is that all four of those couples leave the island with their original partner.

PONIEWOZICK: And the funny thing is that there's actually been a syndicated relationship show on TV for a few years now, called "Change of Heart," that basically does the same thing. You know, they pair up people and couples on dates with other people. They go off. They compare notes.

For some reason, nobody's ever found it necessary to launch a nationwide crusades against this show, possibly because you don't get as big a national platform for doing it. And the funny thing is the criticism is the biggest godsend FOX could have asked for.

BATTISTA: This is true. I've got take a break. Just for the record I never flirted with anyone's date in a bar. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me check the poll real quickly. We asked our audience what they were watching last night. And let's see, 12 percent were watching Ken Burn's "Jazz," 14 percent "Temptation Island," 33 percent "West Wing," 11 percent CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE," and 1 percent for "Jack and Jill," 29 percent were none, which probably means they were on the computer.

Let me go to Kathleen, who had a question.

KATHLEEN: I wanted to know what was Susan doing for a living and is she still a truck driver?

HAWK: Yes, correct. I was a truck driver prior to the island. I still am a Teamster truck driver. I drive a concrete truck, and construction is slow right now in the wintertime in Milwaukee here.

BATTISTA: Robert, let me ask you: Are these shows, do you think, when are we going to get over this? Or do you think they're here to stay? I know they're cheap to produce. They're easy to copy. Are they going to be around for a while?

THOMPSON: Yes, I think we'll probably be seeing these kinds of shows for maybe, oh, I don't know, a century or two probably. The genie is out of the bottle. We're not stuffing her back in again.

I would say we're going to join -- these shows will join sitcoms and doctor shows as part of the mix.

We won't be talking about them as much. Nine out of 10 of them will fail, like nine out of 10 of any other shows fail. But it's an interesting new way to tell a story. "The Real World" started it 10- odd years ago, and I think we're going to see a lot of this.

BATTISTA: Morton, honestly speaking, now, if you were giving the chance to host one of these shows, would you do it?

DOWNEY: Yes, with a twist. Of course, we would. We're all -- all of us in talk and news, whether we want to admit it or not, we're all prostitutes. We'll do what we have to do to make money.

BATTISTA: I thought you were having regrets about...

(LAUGHTER)

DOWNEY: The truth is, Bobbie, you know, we wall want to make a buck.

BATTISTA: Quickly here. Is this a comment or a question? I've only got 30 seconds. You know what, I don't have time. I'm sorry.

Morton Downey Jr., thank you very much for being with us. I appreciate seeing you again. Susan, thank you. Best of luck to you.

HAWK: Thank you, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Hope the weather clears for you.

DOWNEY: Best (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Oh, thank you. And Robert Thompson, thank you for joining us as well. And James Poniewozick, we thank you for joining us. We lost James, we lost our feed there.

We're out of time. Join us again, tomorrow, by the way, at 3:00 Eastern Time for more TALKBACK LIVE. We're going to try to figure out what is Ginger: an island girl, a British spice, or an American Revolution? I'm sure you've heard about this big secret invention. Join us tomorrow.

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