Wolf Blitzer Reports

President Bush Unveils Initiative That Mixes Government and Religion

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: President Bush takes a step that mixes government and religion. Will it work?

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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... when we see social needs in America, my administration will look first at faith- based programs and community groups which have proven their power to save and change lives.

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BLITZER: I'll speak live with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson and ask him about concerns over the separation of church and state.

American workers take another hit. Automaker DaimlerChrysler cuts 26,000 jobs at its struggling Chrysler Group.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people are, you know, really scared on, you know, what's going to be the outcome of this.

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BLITZER: The death toll from India's massive earthquake is now expected to exceed 20,000. But even as rescue efforts continue, the focus is shifting toward the desperate plight of survivors.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington.

Week one for President Bush was devoted to his top priority: education. Week two, what he calls his faith-based initiative, or providing federal dollars to religious charities. But that's raising questions about the Constitution's separation of church and state, and that's our top story.

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BUSH: This is a collection of some of the finest America has got to offer. BLITZER (voice-over): It was a central theme of his campaign. Now, President Bush is calling it one of his most important initiatives. He met with religious groups to unveil his controversial plan.

Mr. Bush would like federal money to help religious and community charities offer services, including after-school programs for children, counseling for drug addicts, and meals for the hungry. And he established a special White House office to make it easier for religious groups to get that money.

Critics insist all this violates the separation of church and state.

ROBERT BOSTON, AMERICANS FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: We can't throw gobs of money at a religious organization and say, go ahead and do your work, be as religious as you want to be, and then claim we're not funding religion.

BLITZER: Mr. Bush says he's confident the plan is constitutional.

BUSH: We will not fund the religious activities of any group, but when people of faith provide social services, we will not discriminate against them.

BLITZER: Also on the White House agenda, Mr. Bush appointed Vice President Dick Cheney to head a task force to deal with high energy prices and the electricity shortage in California. The president is also trying to make good on another campaign pledge by sending Congress a four-year, $48 billion plan to help the low-income elderly buy prescription drugs.

Democrats are criticizing the plan because it doesn't offer a drug benefit to all elderly Americans.

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BLITZER: So the president's policy initiatives just keep on coming. For more on that, we turn to CNN senior White House correspondent John King.

John, how concerned, if at all, are they at the White House over this debate over church and state resulting from today's faith-based initiative?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're certainly concerned that the debate will intensify the political argument on Capitol Hill. They believe their program will be clearly on the right side of the constitutional law. The president will send the details up to Capitol Hill tomorrow.

They understand there will be a great deal of criticism, as you discussed in your piece, from civil libertarians: those who believe there should never be under any circumstances federal money to churches, but they note, if you look at Senator Joseph Lieberman, Al Gore's running mate, he has supported similar programs. Even Bill Clinton when he was president supported a very modest slice of federal money going to faith-based charities.

So they believe, especially among Southern and moderate Democrats, there are more than enough votes to pass this.

BLITZER: John, for the first time today, President Bush spoke out on President Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich, the fugitive billionaire in Switzerland. Listen to what President Bush had to say when asked if he would try to do something to reverse that pardon.

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BUSH: I am troubled by the decision the president made. I would not have made the decision. I would not have made that decision. But nevertheless, he was the president. He had -- he had the right to do so, to make that decision, and he did. And I'm going to protect that privilege not only for me but for future presidents as well.

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BLITZER: There was some talk earlier in the day that President Bush's people at the Justice Department now were looking to see if there was any way, any obscure rule that may allow a reversal of that pardon. I take as a result of what the president has now said that initiative is going to go away?

KING: That's right, Wolf. There had been some lawyers who thought perhaps there was a 19th century precedent that unless the papers for the pardon were actually delivered to the individual it was not valid yet. President Bush snuffed that out today, mainly, he says, to protect the institution. As you saw there, he made clear his displeasure with the decision. Certainly, though, what President Bush said today will give the green light to Republicans in Congress, led by Congressman Dan Burton, who want to hold hearings, who want to continue to criticize the former president for this and perhaps even some others for those pardons he issued in his final hours here at the White House.

BLITZER: The John Ashcroft nomination is coming to a head this week, John. Today, Senator Patrick Leahy and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton both came out against the confirmation of John Ashcroft. But in the end, the votes are still there for confirmation, right?

KING: They believe so. They believe Senator Leahy's decision much more significant, because he is the ranking Democrat on the committee. Senator Clinton, of course, will get some headlines. Senator Leahy, though, may keep a few more Democrats from coming out in favor of Senator Ashcroft. But already, a handful of Democrats have said they will vote for this nominee. In the end, they believe it will be approved by the United States Senate. But the first partisan fight here a way, the White House views this, for liberal groups to lay down a marker to remind the new Republican president that they will be there in battles down the road over abortion, over civil rights, over election reform.

BLITZER: John King at the White House, thank you very much.

And later on our program, as the president puts his faith in faith-based social programs, I'll speak live with Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition. That's coming up in just a few minutes.

But turning now to the job market: In another sign, the U.S. economy is slowing, DaimlerChrysler announced plans today to slash its workforce. The automaker is planning to cut thousands of jobs in its struggling Chrysler division.

Joining us now live from Chrysler's Belvidere, Illinois plant is CNN's Jeff Flock.

You've been talking to workers over there, Jeff. What are you hearing?

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it's just a lousy night here in northern Illinois, Belvidere, Illinois, home to the Neon assembly plant, and a lousy plant both from weather standpoint and from the standpoint of the workers. About 3,100 of them here, and all across North and South America, about 26,000 are slated to be laid off.

This was announced today by Chrysler, and it's not good news. At this plant alone, there used to run three shifts making Plymouth, Dodge and Chrysler Neons. Then after the reorganization they will be down to one.

And a lot of the workers here, Wolf, can't seem to understand it.

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YVONNE STEWART (ph), DAIMLERCHRYSLER EMPLOYEE: Cars is selling. The trucks was selling. I mean, what happened? That's all we want to know.

FLOCK (voice-over): Yvonne Stewart has 31 years in and is eligible for a buyout being offered by DaimlerChrysler.

DIETER ZETSCHE, CEO, CHRYSLER DIVISION: These decisions are absolutely necessary to be kept competitive -- in fact, to survive.

FLOCK: Says the Chrysler president and CEO of the layoffs of 26,000 workers over three years, 20 percent of the global workforce. Among the affected: four plants in the United States, another two in Canada.

BUZZ HARGROVE, PRESIDENT, CAW: It will be a little blip for investors and executives, but for workers and their families and communities, it is a very, very tragic situation that we face at Chrysler.

FLOCK: Part of the problem, too much production, like here in Belvidere, where they've been making Neons since 1993 and can turn out a thousand cars a day. The problem is they don't need to in a slowing economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you can only produce so much. You know, if they don't need it, they don't need it.

FLOCK: Timetable: For the workers who will be offered early retirement, notices by February 6th. That's next week. Layoff notices will come down by March 31st. And analysts say finding a new job in this industry right now won't be easy.

JOHN MCELROY, AUTO ANALYST: This is going to hurt suppliers. It's going to hurt all kinds of parts-making operations. So it's not as if you can say, OK, I'm out of Chrysler, I'll go look for a job elsewhere. It's going to be very tough to do.

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FLOCK: Only bright spot potentially, Wolf, is that there are a lot of people that are apparently eligible for that buyout: about 28 1/2 thousand. Planning 26,000 layoffs. If everybody who's eligible takes the buy out, then potentially the layoffs will be minimal. But analysts say that in the job market, the way it's shaping up right now, people may want to hold onto their jobs instead of taking a buyout.

That's the latest from here, Wolf. Back to you.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Jeff Flock, our Chicago bureau chief in Belvidere, Illinois. Get warm over there. Looks a little windy.

Overseas, aid has been slow to reach quake-stricken western India, where there is an urgent need for food, water and shelter. Tens of thousands have been injured. The death toll is expected to surpass 20,000.

Meantime, frantic rescue efforts continue. Here's CNN's Satinder Bindra.

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SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Indian army soldiers clear tons of rubble from this building, they hear what sounds like a faint and feeble voice. The voice belongs to Prakash Gore (ph), trapped under tons of debris.

Shifting rubble too quickly can mean instant death for both Prakash Gore and the rescue team. So the Indians call in the experts, the Swiss disaster relief unit.

The rescuers race against time. After hours of digging, an unbelievable moment. Rescuers dig further frantically. They know for sure Prakash Gore is alive when he moves his hand ever so slightly. What's even more remarkable, say rescuers, is he's been talking this way for hours.

RAJA KARTHKETA, RESCUE WORKER: The first thing he says, in fact, when we established communication with him, I spoke to him. He says, I just want to go back to work. I want to be on my feet, and I want to go to work.

BINDRA: A doctor reaches in to touch Prakash Gore. He's still alive, but barely. More ominously, perhaps, for the first time since last night, he falls silent. Then suddenly, he talks again.

KARTHKEKA: He said that, you are not taking care of me. You are -- I don't want to hear -- listen to anything you say. Just get me out of here, this very moment."

BINDRA: Sixteen hours after rescuers first heard Prakash Gore, they gingerly pull him to the surface, to sunshine, to fresh air, and a first glimpse in four days of one of his brothers.

With no food and water, rescuers say Prakash Gore is alive because of his stamina, courage and will to live.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, Bhuj, western India.

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BLITZER: Up next: federal funding for faith-based social work. Some have their doubts. Others are true believers. I'll speak live with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson about President Bush's latest initiative. Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Welcome back. As we told you, President Bush wants to let faith-based groups use federal funds to help tackle the country's social problems. Is he chipping away at the constitutional wall between church and state? Joining me now live from Virginia Beach, Virginia is Pat Robertson. He's the founder of the Christian Coalition.

Mr. Robertson, thanks for joining us.

PAT ROBERTSON, FOUNDER, CHRISTIAN COALITION: Thanks, Wolf. It's always good to be with you.

BLITZER: Let's get right to the issue at hand. Is -- is there a danger to the separation of church and state as a result of federal money now being allowed to be used for these faith-based groups?

ROBERTSON: Wolf, I tell you the greatest danger, frankly, is intrusion into the faith-based groups by federal agencies and federal rules. I've been pretty much leery of taking any kind of federal money over the years and I know other groups in the same thing.

So I think the danger is not so much the government is going to be intruded on, but these faith-based organizations could be. They don't have to be, but the possibility exists.

BLITZER: So you haven't actually -- what I'm hearing you say is that you have a concern about the federal government getting involved in various religious organizations as far as their social programs are concerned because of the strings that might be attached to the money.

ROBERTSON: Exactly. Well, if a government agent comes in and begins to give money, and the organization is doing wonderful work talking about religious faith and building up people's hope and their knowledge of God, and that's the key to their success, and all of a sudden some bureaucrat says, well, we're going to give you tons of money but you can't talk about your faith, you can't teach them the Torah, you can't talk about Jesus or what have you, at that point they have essentially killed the essence of that organization. So, that to me is one of the great dangers, and it's one that all faith-based organizations need to look at somewhat charily.

BLITZER: So are you, therefore, saying this is a bad idea that President Bush has?

ROBERTSON: No, I think it's an excellent idea, because, for example, I have an organization called Operation Blessing. We will help or have helped about 100 million people with food, with medicine, with clothing, with blankets, with shelter, with all these things. And we essentially are doing the government's work to help the poor and needy, and it wouldn't hurt at all to have a little bit of help. I mean, you know, food is food is food.

And so we give out about 6 million pounds of food every single month in the inner cities, and to have some help for transportation, for example, or to be able to bring supplies into these cities would be a great help to us because we have to shoulder the whole burden.

BLITZER: Well, what if the government said, we'll give you that help, Pat Robertson, and you can do -- you can use this money to do all of that, but forget talking about Jesus Christ to all these people you're trying to help? What would you say to the government if that was the kind of condition that was imposed?

ROBERTSON: We'd say, thanks but no thanks, we won't take it. But you know, for example, if somebody comes in for a bag of groceries, nobody says, well, will you sign a pledge or make a statement of faith or anything like that. They're welcome. There are guests. We feed them meals. We give them shelter because they're needy. But if somebody said, well, you can't ever tell them about Jesus, we'd say no way, we won't take your money.

BLITZER: Presumably, that will be in the regulations that will be released later this week by this new initiative. The president and his advisers who say they're going to come out with this are insisting that there will be no religious aspect, that those religious organizations who do accept the money are going to be barred from proselytizing or engaging in the kind of work that of course you support.

ROBERTSON: Well, if there's an absolute bar, I wouldn't -- I would think it would be wrong. Now, obviously, if -- say it's the Bowry (ph) Mission, where I've been helping kids. You know, one evening I was handing out food to the homeless there. They have one place where they feed people, then they have a chapel where they talk to them about their souls. And I guess the government's program is going to be, we'll help you with your food and your food kitchen, but we won't interfere with your church service. And I think if that's the case, it will be all right.

BLITZER: You know, the irony from what I'm hearing from you is that many of the critics of this faith-based initiative program say it was basically an effort to placate the religious conservatives, the people like you who did support George W. Bush for the presidency.

ROBERTSON: Well, look, I think's it's a wonderful thing. I have been involved in every kind of help in the inner city. We've trained people in the inner city how to read and write. I've known dear friends, especially in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and in other places, who've done drug programs. I know that these are very effective programs and they can use additional funding. The major limitation on them is money.

So if more money is made available without strings, it's a great help.

But you know, Wolf, I hear these critics -- the Barry Lynns of this world and the ACLU -- they really haven't read the Supreme Court. There's a case -- and if you don't me telling you about it -- it's called Bowen (ph) versus Kendrick (ph), and the court said this.

"The Court" -- and I'm quoting -- "has never held that religious institutions are disabled by the First Amendment from participating in publicly sponsored social welfare programs." And the Court went on to say "There's a long history of cooperation and interdependency between governments and charitable or religious organizations."

This has been true overseas. Catholic Charities has been getting money for years to help foreign victims of disasters and so forth. There's nothing new about this program, and it's a very worthwhile things.

The Navy, for example, has Operation Hand (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We have had relief supplies sent on what would be called "Navy bottoms." They have taken supplies overseas that we have -- we have obtained, and they deliver them to a port and we take them out to help the poor. And it's a very nice service, and it's been going on now for decades.

This is nothing new in America.

BLITZER: You know, speaking about Barry Lynn -- he was on "CROSSFIRE" within the past hour. You probably -- you may have heard what he had to say. I want you to listen to one aspect of the criticism he's leveled against President Bush's latest initiative.

Listen to Barry Lynn on this point.

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BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: This is what's so scary. Never in the history of our country has a president gone and tried to expand a program that affirmatively allows religious bigots to get money: That is to say someone could take tax dollars from this program, set up an institution in their place of worship, and then say to someone coming in for a job, oh, I'm sorry, we don't hire Baptists, or we don't hire Catholics.

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BLITZER: Does he make a fair point there?

ROBERTSON: Not one bit in the world. Listen, Barry Lynn in all honesty has said publicly that he would not support the use of a fire engine to put out a fire at a church if the church was burning down. That's how extreme he is. He is way over on the fringe, and he makes his money with all this stuff. He'll send out letters and try to raise money on this.

But calling people religious bigots -- what if, for example, Planned Parenthood -- gets enormous amounts of government money and they're doing things that are prohibited by law. They say we'll keep it separate. We'll have education on the one hand and we'll have our abortion activity on the other. But they get at least $100 million year. Who is to say Barry Lynn doesn't complain about them? Nor will he complain about an atheist group. It's only when somebody's of faith. It's inconsistent, and he's going to lose on this big time.

BLITZER: All right, Pat Robertson. Unfortunately we're out of time. Always good to have you on. Thanks for joining us.

ROBERTSON: My pleasure.

BLITZER: After the break, federal regulators consider bolstering defenses of Mad Cow's Disease. And we'll have the latest on this weekend's plane crash that killed two Oklahoma State University basketball players.

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BLITZER: Welcome back. Now a look at our other top stories: U.S. Farm groups pledged today to comply with federal regulations aimed at keeping the brain-destroying disease from spreading in the U.S. This comes a week after 1,200 Texas cattle were quarantined over fears they had consumed feed that contained livestock remains. The FDA banned such feed because of beliefs the disease spreads when cows eat the remains of infected animals.

Investigators are looking into the crash of a plane chartered by Oklahoma State University's basketball team. They're trying to determine whether the plane was de-iced before taking off. The twin- engine plane crashed Saturday in Colorado, minutes after taking off in light snow. 10 people were killed, including two members of the men's basketball team. The university is planning a memorial service Wednesday in their honor.

In Chile, former military ruler Augusto Pinochet was re-indicted today on charges stemming from his 17-year regime. A judge ordered the retired general to stand trial for the killings and kidnappings of political prisoners at the onset of his rule. Pinochet was ordered held under house arrest. Supporters and attorneys for Pinochet have long said he's too ill to face trial.

With the Bush administration giving more thought to military defense in space, the U.S. Air Force last week played out its first imaginary war game with a space-based scenario.

Details from CNN military affairs correspondent Jaime McIntyre.

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JAIME MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The war gamers were told to imagine it was the year 2017. A powerful country was threatening a U.S. ally The wrinkle: in this science fiction scenario, the U.S. has even more satellites in space, as well as futuristic systems that don't exist yet. The exercise was classified, but the Air Force says several conclusions were obvious, that U.S. space-based systems were vulnerable to attack, and the U.S. military relied too heavily on commercial space systems. This comes just two weeks after a space commission report concluded that future conflict in space is a "virtual certainty."

Critics argue the U.S. should agree to a ban on space based weapons, just as it has agreed not to put nuclear weapons in space. But Pentagon planners worry the U.S. is already to reliant on the satellites to leave their defense to the goodwill of other nations.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

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BLITZER: Just ahead, we'll open our WOLF BLITZER REPORTS mailbag. Lots of negative reaction to our interview Friday night with former Clinton White House counsel Jack Quinn. And one of you urges me to be humble. I will be. But not tonight. I'll explain.

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BLITZER: Welcome back. Time now to open our WOLF BLITZER REPORTS mailbag. Lots of reaction to my interview Friday night with Jack Quinn, the former Clinton White House counsel who now represents the pardoned fugitive billionaire Marc Rich. Tom Haverson's comments were reflective of most.

"If the charges against Mr. Rich are baseless as Mr. Quinn asserts, could not the whole issue have been resolved 15 years ago by Mr. Rich standing trial and defending himself in a court of law, instead of running away to Switzerland and renouncing his renouncing his U.S. citizenship?"

And Colonel Joe Hart e-mails us with this:

"If he had all the evidence the Mr. Rich was falsely accused, why did Quinn fail to bring Rich back and defend him in court? Rich can refuse the pardon and go to court."

Finally, Bruce Bolen of Newport Beach, California, says he likes our program. "Your topics are good and reporting excellent. I do wish, however, that you would be less ego centered -- please be more humble."

Bruce, that is very good advice. I'll try to be more humble. But before then, here's a note from Alimamy:

"I was thinking about you running for the White House in 2004. This could help end this country's political quagmire. What do you think? You have my vote."

Alimamy, in my new and more humble manner, I will simply say this: I'm not interested, but thanks. Remember you can e-mail me at wolf@cnn.com. I just might read your comments on the air.

Please stay with CNN throughout the night. Susan McDougal is among Larry King's guests at the top of the hour. Up next, Greta Van Susteren,

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