Crossfire

Has President Bush Gone Too Far in His Push for a Tax Cut?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Has President Bush gone too far in his push for a tax cut? Have South Carolina lawmakers gone too far to make sure the right guy succeeds Strom Thurmond? And how far will Monica Lewinsky go on HBO?

Tonight, a political week in review.

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Robert Novak. In the crossfire: Republican strategist Mike Murphy and Democratic strategist Marla Romash.

CARLSON: Good evening, and welcome to CROSSFIRE.

George W. Bush took his case for lower taxes on the road today, making stops in South Dakota and Louisiana. The president hopes to force Democratic senators from those states to support his tax plan. But all the goodwill in the world won't pass the cut if Republicans lose control of the evenly divided Senate.

This may explain why GOP lawmakers in South Carolina are pushing a bill that would require their state's Democratic governor to appoint a Republican to the Senate should anything happen to 98-year-old Strom Thurmond.

Clever politics, but is it constitutional?

And remember Monica Lewinsky? You're about to be reminded. Lewinsky has agreed to tell all to HBO for an upcoming documentary on her affair with Bill Clinton. Are there any details left to divulge? We'll find out.

Sitting in on the left tonight, former Hillary Clinton press secretary Lisa Caputo -- Lisa.

LISA CAPUTO, GUEST CO-HOST: Nice to be with you, Tucker. I'm not going to Monica Lewinsky yet. I want to start with the tax bill, clearly. Is this the kind of bipartisan unification, Mike Murphy, that George Bush promised to when he came into office. Let's look at what John Breaux said today. He said in today's "New York Times": "You can't talk about changing the way we do business in Washington and bringing about the spirit of bipartisan cooperation and then ram through a tax bill in the House."

What do you say to this? MIKE MURPHY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: There's no such thing as bipartisanship. It's absolute bunk. It's just a spin Washington people use. And the Democrats hate bipartisanship.

They will do the photo-op. They'll say, oh, we believe it. The words will fly around. But they're having meetings around the clock on how to sink the Bush tax cut and torpedo him. That's what politics is all about. So we're finally into the reality season now when the Democrats are acting like Democrats.

CAPUTO: Yeah. But what about all the RNC calls into the states? He isn't even notifying some Democratic senators and members that he's coming into their states? Isn't this really orchestrated -- in fact, you know, he's just trying to not allow the Democrats to even mobilize.

MURPHY: Well, I don't know if the cops always call Tony Soprano before they arrest him. You know, he'll run over the border. You have to deal with these Democrats like they are, people who want to sink your tax cut.

We're looking at politics here of a dead-even Senate. This is going to be a tough fight. Bush has the tax issue on his side, people want it, and he's doing smart politics.

MARLA ROMASH, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, they do not.

MURPHY: OK, Marla. He's going out there, putting pressure on these guys whose voters voted for Bush and his tax cut plan to have the senators fall into line. It's smart.

ROMASH: Yeah, but the point you're missing, Mike, though -- I'm going to jump in, Lisa, if that's OK. There are two issues here, though. The whole point, you know, on Bush's bipartisanship was that Bush came into office with this promise of doing business differently, he was going to bring people together. Well, guess what, he's not. No big surprise.

The tax cut -- I mean, notice you didn't talk about the substance of the tax cut at all, because the fact is that 58 percent of the American people know that the Bush tax cut is going to take us back to recession and back to the bad economic times we saw.

It's a tax cut that's going to kill Social Security and Medicare, not allow any money to go to deficit and debt reduction. And just when we finally figured out...

MURPHY: Oh, baloney, baloney, baloney!

ROMASH: ... how to reduce the deficit, how to get the economy going again, this guy's going to take us back to recession.

MURPHY: Marla, I'm going to give you my bipartisanship award tonight, because this is the problem. The Democrats will use the word, but then it's pit bull city. You guys wand to murder this tax cut. You hate tax cuts. ROMASH: First...

MURPHY: That's why we're different.

ROMASH: No, we don't hate tax cuts. We put forward a good...

MURPHY: Oh, yes, you do.

ROMASH: ... reasonable tax cut.

MURPHY: You pretend you do to fool voters.

ROMASH: No, that's not true.

MURPHY: But you guys can't stand -- admit it! Admit it!

ROMASH: But the fact is the American people, 58 percent of them are saying this tax cut will take us back. Only 15 percent of the American people are saying a tax cut is a priority. They care about a whole other set of issues.

MURPHY: Then run on high taxes, please.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Let's -- let's -- let's get to a much, in my opinion, a much happier subject.

ROMASH: Oh, see...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: You'll see...

ROMASH: Oh, Tucker.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: ... the bulk of his last year in office meditating on his legacy. And this was widely debated, what would his legacy be. And it turns out here at CNN we have video of his legacy, and I want you to take a look at Bill Clinton's legacy...

ROMASH: I can't wait, Tucker.

CARLSON: ... captured on film. There it is. There's his legacy, Monica Lewinsky.

Now, of course, as we noted at the open, she'll be doing a new HBO documentary. And it strikes me as I watch this that 50 years from now people aren't going to say, Bill Clinton, you know, the president who banned flights from the Grand Canyon. They'll say, Monica Lewinsky's boyfriend.

Now, my question to you is, isn't this so frustrating to Democrats and you? ROMASH: Well, I -- I've got to challenge your, you know, the first premise that you said to me, first of all. I think the only people who still care about this story are the cable networks, because it helps feed their ratings, and the American people are through with this. They want to talk about the issues that are important to them. They want to talk about what we're going to do to educate their kids, what we're going to do to provide health care to them, what we're going to do to protect Social Security and Medicare. So for all the cable pundits who have to sit here and chat all night...

CARLSON: Oh...

(CROSSTALK)

ROMASH: ... this is a great story.

CARLSON: I'm so glad you brought up the American people, and somehow -- somehow I thought you would, because they've spoken actually on Bill Clinton. They spoke in the form of a Gallup poll. And I want you to listen to what they're saying now about Bill Clinton.

Bill Clinton, it turns out, has the highest unfavorable, 59 percent, he's ever had. And this is...

ROMASH: Get over it, Tucker. He's not the president anymore.

CARLSON: The American people are transferring their affections, and they have, according to Gallup, from Bill Clinton to George W. Bush, whose favorable is now at 69 percent. Now, doesn't this say something about all the things he stood for?

ROMASH: Tucker, Tucker, Tucker, but the point here is really, you know, you guys love holding onto the Clinton story, because it's great for your ratings, it's great for all your late-night talk shows.

CARLSON: Oh, please.

ROMASH: But the fact is the American people are tired of the story.

CARLSON: This doesn't say anything important about public perception of what the Clinton years meant.

ROMASH: No, no. I think history will judge Bill Clinton a lot kinder than you are right now. I think people will also give Bill Clinton credit for changing our health care policies, not the big way he wanted to. They're going to give him credit for reducing -- eliminating the deficit. They're going to give him credit for investing in America's future.

There are a lot of things that Bill Clinton is going to get credit for.

MURPHY: No, they're not. They're going to remember the Monica thing, the pardon orgy and the missing furniture. That's why his numbers are upside down.

It's over, Marla!

CAPUTO: But Mike...

MURPHY: Yes.

CAPUTO: Isn't the fascination with Bill Clinton, the media's fascination with Bill Clinton giving President Bush a free ride?

MURPHY: You know, not really. I think it has been good for Bush politically. I do believe...

CAPUTO: It has been good.

MURPHY: ... there's some Clinton fatigue. I'm a little disappointed in this HBO thing. I kind of wish it was over. I guess the Spice Channel got outbid, and I think Marla does have a point that cable TV people, even at wonderful CNN, do love ratings.

That said, Clinton is an anchor on the Democratic Party. He's a failed president. He's not remembered for any of his legacy. And that wallpaper of scandal behind him, the pardon mess, all these things, helps Bush. It does make Bush look better.

CAPUTO: But you've got to put the "pardon mess" -- your words -- into its proper context. If we want to talk pardons, let's talk about papa Bush's pardons: Armand Hammer...

MURPHY: Sure.

CAPUTO: ... the Pakastani drug dealer.

MURPHY: I'd love to talk pardons for a year, because we'll just win a ton of elections.

CAPUTO: Please, please defend those, because I'm quite confused myself. And you know, I don't think it's been very fair and somewhat irresponsible not to put the pardon issue into its proper historical context.

MURPHY: Well, you guys are welcome to that in all the partisan yapping we all do about this. But the bottom line is find me a Republican pardon connected to an international fugitive with a bag full of cash paying all kinds of presidential relatives to buy their way out of a huge felony situation.

CAPUTO: Well...

MURPHY: I mean, find me a Republican example like that. You guys can barely defend this because it's indefensible.

ROMASH: But listen, Mike, this is one of those things where I'm not going to defend the Rich pardon. I'm not.

MURPHY: You see, nobody will. ROMASH: But hear me out. You know, Lisa's point is important. You don't want to defend Bush's -- the senior Bush's pardon of a cocaine dealer. The fact is we ought to get off the whole question of pardons and get back to the issues people care about.

MURPHY: No, this is the everybody-does-it defense that the Democrats use.

ROMASH: No, it's not an everybody-does-it defense.

MURPHY: The reason Clinton's numbers are upside down is the American people have taken a look at this and they're horrified. He's gone from megapopular to a joke. That doesn't happen in 30 days in politics unless you really, really screw up.

CARLSON: So I think we can all agree here, Marla, that Clinton can be a problem for the Democrats. So I guess the next...

ROMASH: You're putting words in my mouth, Tucker.

CARLSON: Hold on.

ROMASH: You're putting words in my mouth.

CARLSON: But I think even you -- I think even you would agree that...

ROMASH: No. I -- you know, I was...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: ... he's a problematic public figure.

(CROSSTALK)

Doubtless you will.

ROMASH: Listen, I was proud, as Lisa was, to be part of the Clinton administration, to serve the vice president for a long period of time. We accomplished a lot of good for the country.

CARLSON: But the question remains who will lead the Democratic Party now that Clinton is supposedly gone. Now, I don't know if you saw the editorial in this week's "New Republic" -- doubtless you read it. Big booster of Democratic candidates and causes, including Al Gore. Just read you the first couple of lines.

"In 2000, Clinton fatigue hurt the Democrats. In 2001, it downright destroyed them. It's not enough for Democrats to denounce Clinton's pardons. They need to show he's no longer in charge of the party. They need to dump the apparatchik he placed at the party's head, Terry McAuliffe."

So my question to you is, why do Democrats lie back and allow Clinton to reach up from the grave and install the head of the party, and what are they going to do about it? ROMASH: Listen, I think again you're saying to me that's a problem. You think that's a problem. I don't. I think we've got a lot of very good folks, and I think Terry McAuliffe -- god bless him -- is a pit bull who's out there fighting a tough fight for the Democratic Party. I think Gephardt and Daschle are wonderful, effective, strong spokespeople for the party.

CARLSON: And very, very old, and part of an old age.

ROMASH: Very, very old -- oh, Tucker.

CARLSON: No, but old in terms of the era they represent.

ROMASH: Older than all the old white guys that George Bush has brought back into the administration.

CARLSON: But I guess my point is...

ROMASH: Give me a break.

CARLSON: ... where are the emergent leaders of the Democratic Party? Every one you've listed comes from an era that has already passed and it is embarrassing to boot. So where are the new faces?

ROMASH: I don't think -- I don't think there's anything embarrassing about Dick Gephardt's leadership. I don't think there's anything embarrassing about Tom Daschle's leadership in the United States Senate. So let's be clear about what you're painting.

And I can also look at, you know, people in the House. I mean, my dear friend, Rosa DeLauro, who's leading the Democratic Party in the House and probably one of the most aggressive people I know at putting out a strong Democratic message. So, you know, the woman in the United States Senate. We have a record number of woman in the United States Senate. I was proud this afternoon to be at a luncheon where they were honored.

They bring all kinds of new voices to the Senate, Hillary Clinton among them.

So, you know, your -- your criticism is a little harsh and a little bit not connected to reality.

MURPHY: Does this mean we can hope and pray that Hillary runs for president? If she's the face of your party, nominate her.

ROMASH: No, I think that's...

(CROSSTALK)

CAPUTO: I want to save Hillary -- I want to save Hillary for this discussion, because I want to talk about old and Senate, which is something Tucker brought up. If we're going to talk old and Senate, I think we have to talk about Strom Thurmond. Here we have a guy who's 98 years old. He can't get around the Capitol without aid from his assistants. Isn't it really time for him to go? Isn't that the responsible thing to do?

He's up for re-election in 2003 I believe. He can't even get around. He relies on index cards. Isn't it the responsible thing for him to step down and allow the governor to appoint an interim successor?

MURPHY: The Democratic governor, right?

(LAUGHTER)

CAPUTO: Yes, just like as is always done, as is always done.

MURPHY: Absolutely not. It's his decision. He's a senator. He and the people of South Carolina can figure this out. We are going to have an election, probably Lindsey Graham will run in his place, I doubt Senator Thurmond will run for another term. But you never know. If he does, he'd win. And I think Lindsey is far and away the best candidate in either party, and he will win the election.

ROMASH: But let's be clear. The problem here isn't -- you know, the governor said he will appoint a caretaker. The governor said that he will appoint someone who won't run, and I think that is entirely correct -- it's entirely legitimate, but the problem is here, the Republicans in South Carolina who want a law that says, you got to appoint a Republican. Well, that's nuts! That's just nuts.

CAPUTO: You know, to that point, Mike Murphy, I want to show you a quote today from Governor Hodges' spokesperson who said about the Republican legislation in the state of South Carolina: "This is the kind of bill that circling vultures come up with." Which is to say -- would that be your Republican brethren would be Republican vultures trying to ramrod yet another process through?

MURPHY: I'm not going to help the hack Democratic governor pile on Republican down in South Carolina, a state which unfortunately has far too many hack politicians. I will say, the people can figure this thing out. Lindsey is the best candidate, and he'll be the next senator.

I don't think the Republicans ought to beat a big living will drum of some kind. I think, frankly, the people of South Carolina will be very mad if Hodges, the Democrat, tried to take political advantage of Thurmond's situation. So, the governor ought to back off, the state legislatures ought to back off, and I think Strom will do the right thing.

CAPUTO: But Senator Thurmond had a tape where his wife, from whom he's been separated since 1991, you know, he says, "I want her to succeed me." So, clearly, he's thinking about this.

MURPHY: Again, Strom can take care of himself. Here's a guy who was a senator, a governor and ran for president all before 1948. He has got a little more experience than we do, and the people of South Carolina love him. I trust him to make the right decision. CARLSON: Well, we've got enough experience to continue this conversation, and we will, with Mike Murphy and Marla Romash, when we return on CROSSFIRE. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAPUTO: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Lisa Caputo, sitting in on the left. Tonight, we are talking all kinds of politics. It was a week that started with questions about the vice president's health, and ended with the political crossfire over the president's tax cut.

Joining us tonight are two long-time veterans of the national political stage, Republican strategist Mike Murphy and Democratic strategist Marla Romash -- Tucker.

CARLSON: Marla, it's difficult to be surprised by the depths of melodrama to which House Democrats will sink, but you know, I always am surprised, and I was surprised again today about what Dick Gephardt said about the vote yesterday. He said, "It killed bipartisanship."

But the fact is, actually, that it was Democrats who weren't bipartisan about this. In 1981, 50 Democrats voted for the Reagan tax cut. Yesterday, you had 10. One was Ralph Hall from Texas, he doesn't really count. The other was Traficant from Ohio...

ROMASH: He doesn't count either?

CARLSON: He doesn't count at all. So, you really had eight Democrats. So, who is not crossing over? It's the Democrats who aren't crossing over.

ROMASH: Well, of course, the Democrats didn't cross over, because the tax cut is a lousy idea! So I don't think it has anything to do with bipartisanship, I think that the Democrats are smart enough to see a bad deal, and say to George Bush, we don't like this. We don't like it because it messes up Social Security and Medicare, we don't like it because it is based on phony surplus numbers, we don't like it because it's going it to lead us back to deficits and recession. So, bipartisanship -- those are Democrats saying, bad idea.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: Marla, you have never had a bipartisan thought in your life! Name an issue that's bipartisanship -- where it's not a code word for Republicans caving to the Democrats. Name one!

ROMASH: No, no, no. The issue here -- I don't claim to be bipartisan, I'm not. I'm as partisan as they get -- as they come.

MURPHY: You're honest, I like it.

ROMASH: No, no. I'm not going to claim to be bipartisan. But the news here isn't whether or not the Democrats are bipartisan. The news here is that George Bush came to office saying he was going to be a uniter and not a divider. And instead, what we're seeing is Bush laying all this political capital around the tax cut the American people don't want, the Democrats know it's a bad deal, and he's playing hardball!

MURPHY: I'll make you a deal, I'll make you a deal...

ROMASH: ... so, the guy who said he was going to bring people together is instead using his tax cut to divide people.

MURPHY: I'll make you a deal...

CARLSON: Look. First of all, polls show that the American people do want this tax cut, but...

ROMASH: No, they don't, Tucker, what polls? What polls?

CARLSON: But we can argue -- but the fact is that from the very moment he got there, he was on the phone with Democrats all day long, he went to the retreat...

ROMASH: It was a sham! And then...

CARLSON: Well, what do you want?

ROMASH: What does he do -- Mr. Bring-People-Together, his name is John Ashcroft, extreme right-winger, to be attorney general! And one of the first things he does is reverse the gag rule -- excuse me, put in the gag rule again on the Mexico City policy...

MURPHY: Not a reasonable choice like Ted Kennedy or some other bipartisan...

ROMASH: No, no, no. There were a lot of other AGs he could have named, not a right-wing extremist like John Ashcroft.

MURPHY: Here's a way to destroy the Republican party. OK. Here is my secret plan...

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: All right, here's the deal. Let us pass the tax cut, and cut everybody's taxes. And if you are right, the country will be so mad, they are going to throw us all out office, and it will all be over, and it will be wall-to-wall Democrats.

ROMASH: But you are not cutting everybody's taxes! You are cutting taxes...

MURPHY: You can run Amtrak!

ROMASH: But you're not cutting -- oh, I'd love to run Amtrak. I love the trains.

But you're not cutting everybody's taxes...

MURPHY: Yes, we are.

ROMASH: You're cutting the taxes for George Bush's rich friends!

MURPHY: Oh, come on.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: The reason it's a big cut you guys don't like is: it cuts everybody's taxes. People who earn a lot...

ROMASH: No.

(CROSSTALK)

CAPUTO: No, no, the middle class gets squeezed. We all know it. It's not an equitable...

ROMASH: And the American people know it....

CAPUTO: ... tax cut.

ROMASH: The American people know it. Fifty-five percent of the American people in "L.A. Times" said they don't...

MURPHY: Let us do, and you can throw us out of office.

ROMASH: No, let us do it, and we'll watch you take the economy back into a recession...

MURPHY: No!

ROMASH: We'll watch the debt go back up...

MURPHY: No, we're (UNINTELLIGIBLE) recession, that's still why it's a good policy...

ROMASH: ... and we'll watch Medicare go in the can...

CAPUTO: I think, but -- but -- we have to add...

MURPHY: Yes.

CAPUTO: Back to the John Ashcroft point, because I think we do -- we have exhausted the tax cut.

(CROSSTALK)

CAPUTO: ... and I'm not going to get into that whole thing, except I duly note that he has got a campaign finance violation on his hands, does he not?

MURPHY: No.

CAPUTO: What do you mean no, it's in the papers today?

MURPHY: Oh, in "The Washington Post?" I'm shocked.

CAPUTO: In "The Washington Post" and in "The New York Times." Violations in the Senate race.

MURPHY: I'm shocked. I'm totally shocked. I don't believe it. There's an investigation that happens to all politicians everywhere because of the incredible...

ROMASH: What do you mean all?

MURPHY: Oh, come on, Marla, you know how the FEC works! It's so obtuse now -- this bureaucracy, that they do investigations to see ? if he's found guilty. I think he will be totally cleared.

CAPUTO: So, are you advocating an investigation into the current attorney general?

MURPHY: No. What I read in the slanted liberal coverage, I read today...

CAPUTO: That would be the slanted liberal coverage?

MURPHY: In your papers, "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post," is that there are charges made about -- was a mailing list sold from one thing to another in the middle of the night...

CAPUTO: Right. Right. Swapping of lists for money.

MURPHY: Yeah. compared to what the Clinton racket pulled off in the last five years, it's a speeding ticket. And they haven't even said if he's guilty, they are just looking at it. I think if they do look at it, he'll be found totally innocent.

CAPUTO: Then let me ask you a question now about Dick Cheney.

MURPHY: Yes.

CAPUTO: Do you think he should step aside as vice president? Don't you think it's in the best national interests, because we really want our leaders to be strong and sturdy?

MURPHY: Do you?

CAPUTO: I should take the Fifth.

MURPHY: I don't think he should step aside. He's outstanding, and he's doing a great job, and this thing has been widely overplayed by the media.

CAPUTO: Well, let me show you...

MURPHY: I don't think he is going to star in the Olympic games, but he is a brilliant guy, he is totally healthy enough to do the job, and he is great. So, you just lay off.

CAPUTO: Let me show you what a very credible columnist in "USA Today" said today. In today's paper, Walter Shapiro says, quote: "Vice President Dick Cheney should resign. Although Republicans may still be reluctant to admit it, the nomination of a man with Cheney's shaky health history was a political mistake."

So what is political fallout here?

MURPHY: Nothing. Walter is nuts on this. He's wrong. He is a friend of mine. I know him. But he is totally wrong.

CAPUTO: Why?

MURPHY: You think Cheney ought to resign?

CAPUTO: I have concerns as an American citizen who exercises her right to vote that my vice president has health problems. Yes, I do -- since he's running the country anyway.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: All the doctors and cardiologists and the experts all say it's a very manageable condition. And he's in good shape. And he handles it well. He's doing the exercise regime. And I think he is fine.

ROMASH: Yes, but I've got to say, the one thing we are not saying is, what is absolutely terrifying to me about Cheney's health is that he is the grownup who is supposed to be taking care of stuff in the White House. So Dick Cheney is not there and George Bush is really in charge?

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: ... you can relax.

ROMASH: Yikes! That's terrifying to me.

MURPHY: Bill Clinton should never have resigned -- the party line -- for all the myriad scandals, we'll just say, that he committed. The idea of Cheney resigning because he has a very normal cardiac condition he handles quite well is ludicrous.

CARLSON: Well, if we could just move quickly from health to math here, I want you answer a question that I have been posing all week to Democrats who have been going on about how the tax cut is just going to blow up country: We don't have money to do this .

You know, all Democrats are all staunch fiscal conservatives, as you know.

ROMASH: It was a Democratic president who got rid of the deficit, Trucker, I will remind you.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: OK, I remember that.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMASH: And a Republican president who created it. CARLSON: But, anyway, my question to you is: How big would the surplus have to be before you were comfortable with this tiny little tax cut that Bush is -- I mean, specific -- let's get specific: a frillion dollars? How big is it? How much is enough?

ROMASH: I'm not an economist, Tucker. I will tell you that their tax cut is based on an assumption that the economy is going to grow at 3 percent every year. And it's not. It's just not. We are not going to see the kind of numbers they're predicting. So we're not going to have the kind of money they are saying we're going to have for tax cuts.

So, listen, I will let the economists deal with exactly how large it should be. I know that what I'm learning and what I'm seeing says that their plan is based on 3 percent growth that's not going to happen. I mean, today...

CARLSON: So, in other words, you are saying: I don't know how big it should be. I don't know the real numbers involved., but I know that they are wrong.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMASH: I know the numbers they're putting forward are cooked. They are based on growth estimates that were not going to happen, that are not going to see -- we are not going to see 3 percent growth in this economy. So, I mean, that's the bottom-line base. I mean, even the comptroller -- the comptroller of the United States is saying: You can't base your tax cuts on these long-term estimates.

So I will leave the economists to be more specific on the forecast. But I do know that the Bush tax cut is based on 3 percent growth rates every year that we're not going to see and that no one believes we're going to see. And when you look at what they want for their tax cuts, and you look what's needed for Medicare, or you look at what's needed for Social Security, you look at what is needed for all the other things George Bush says he wants to do, not to mention paying down the debt...

CARLSON: All of which I believed are addressed in the Bush budget plan.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMASH: It's not going to happen. There is no Bush budget! That's just the point! These guys wants the tax cut and then the budget because they don't want to talk about what this tax is going to do to the budget.

CARLSON: OK!

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: We are out of time -- sadly. But thank you, Marla Romash, Mike Murphy.

MURPHY: Thank you.

CARLSON: Lisa Caputo and I will be right back to hash out the details of the tax cut. And, of course, Monica Lewinsky will return in our closing comments. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: You know, Lisa, it's wonderful to have Monica Lewinsky back in the news, because it's not only a great story -- and I think even you'll admit it is -- it's also a metaphor for so much else. And it just -- it makes me feel sad for Democrats, as I did for almost two years while it was going on, because they need someone to lead the party. And they still don't have anyone.

CAPUTO: Well, I think there is Hillary Clinton. You know, she is rolling up her sleeves in the Senate. And there are a multitude of people out there. When you look at it, you have got Gray Davis emerging. You've got John Edwards from North Carolina; Bill Bradley being undecided. So there lot of people out there. But let's talk about

(CROSSTALK)

CAPUTO: No, wait. I want to know about Arnold Schwarzenegger. And is he running for governor of California?

CARLSON: He's the most popular Republican in California.

CAPUTO: Another win for the Gipper.

CARLSON: So I think that makes complete sense. But, I mean, Hillary Clinton's numbers have gone way down. John Edwards has been a senator for exactly one year. Gray Davis has got some power problems in California. And so this power vacuum remains. Even the public is laying on Terry McAuliffe, who is, you know, one of most likable people in Washington. But they raise an interesting point: Can he lead? He's Clinton's guy.

CAPUTO: Oh, I think he can absolutely lead. And I think it's early on. And Hillary Clinton's Senate term: Give her some time. Let her prove herself. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

CARLSON: It is going to take a lot of time...

CAPUTO: I know, for you...

CARLSON: to erase the stain!

CAPUTO: I know, for you, Tucker.

From the left, I'm Lisa Caputo. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Watch us on "SPIN ROOM," Bill Press and me. We have Danny Bonaduce from "The Partridge Family."

Thanks from CROSSFIRE. We'll be back next week.

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