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Larry King Live Weekend

The Lowdown on Hollywood Stars; Revisiting Famous Crimes; A Cartoonist's Perspective

Aired March 24, 2001 - 9:00 p.m. ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, it's Oscar eve, and when it comes to covering stars and scandals, glitz and glamour, "Vanity Fair" gets top billing. The magazine's editor, Graydon Carter, joins me in L.A. to talk about a terrific new book, "Vanity Fair's Hollywood."

Then later, a world famous forensic scientist who has been described as a cross between Sherlock Holmes and Charlie Chan, Dr. Henry Lee from Hartford, Connecticut. His new book is "Famous Crimes Revisited."

And then the dean of sports cartoonist, the one and only Bill Gallo of "The New York Daily News." His unique perspective is on display in "Drawing a Crowd."

They're all next on LARRY KING WEEKEND.

Good evening, it's Oscar eve and this famous issue, now become a famous, "Vanity Fair, Legends of Hollywood, Special Collectors Edition" seems to come out every year at this time with good reason. Our guest is the editor of one of the world's most successful publications, "Vanity Fair" magazine, Graydon Carter. He's also the editor, along with David Friend, of "Vanity Fair's Hollywood," a new book all about tinsel-town.

How did -- when did Vanity Fair get associated with this event?

GRAYDON CARTER, EDITOR, "VANITY FAIR": With the Oscars? I came out here, I guess in 1993, to attend Swifty Lezar party and I thought it was a sort of wonderful evening...

KING: A famous party.

CARTER: A very famous party. That it sort of made post-Oscar history. And then when I came out, when Swifty, or Irving, Lazar died, Steve Tisch and I decided to do a small dinner after the Oscars and it's just sort of -- and then, as Steve left, I went on my own on this and we kept it at the same restaurant, at Morton's. We had dinner last night. And it just sort of mushroomed into something quite large. It grew very, I guess, organically is probably...

KING: So, it's just been, really, what, five years?

CARTER: It's been about six years, I think. KING: So, this has not been an eternity?


KING: The "Vanity Fair" -- was "Vanity Fair" particularly before that associated before that with the screen, other than occasional articles?

CARTER: "Vanity Fair" has had a long history with Hollywood, going back to the birth of both "Vanity Fair" and the movies. "Vanity Fair" started in 1914, right around the time that the actual movie business sort of got underway. And it was always a part of the magazine's coverage. A lot of the great images of Hollywood stars from the 20's and 30's, they appeared in "Vanity Fair" for the first time, they were shot for "Vanity Fair" and, in many cases, they are the iconographic images of those stars. So, it does have a long history with Hollywood, and Hollywood probably makes up 20 percent of the mix of "Vanity Fair"'s editorial content.

KING: For the benefit of viewers in Iowa and Missouri, the party is the party everyone wants to go to. And what is the benefit of it to the magazine?

CARTER: I don't know. I mean, I think that -- I wish that there was a hardcore answer to that. I think it -- this is a very successful issue we do each year and I guess that it, it just sort of makes "Vanity Fair" very much a part of the movie business and the entertainment business, which is a very big part of the American economy.

And furthermore, it's like the big part of the American party that we ship abroad. And that "Vanity Fair" is an international magazine, unlike most big monthly magazines, there's only one edition, and the edition that you see anywhere in the world is the one we put out in New York City. Most other big monthlies have foreign editions.

KING: You don't have a French edition?

CARTER: No, there's just one "Vanity Fair" and so, since the American, sort of, popular culture formalized in movies is such a big part of the way we present ourselves abroad, I think it's a very good association for the magazine.

KING: And there was no plan for this, right? It just grew.

CARTER: It just grew. It grew from a dinner of 150 people, the dinner's not that much larger, and it just, it grew. Now it is mushroomed into something quite large.

KING: Keeps the fire and police departments interesting as they count people going in and out.

CARTER: They stand there with clickers to make sure...

KING: You don't get it, no matter who you are, unless somebody leaves. CARTER: Right. That's right. So, there's periods of the night when it becomes sort of "Day of the Locust"-y, and we try to avoid that, because I don't want to keep anybody waiting outside.

KING: Now, I know next we go to the Radio and TV Correspondents Dinner in Washington. Are you doing that party?

CARTER: No, I stopped doing that simply because...

KING: Why?

CARTER: Because it was, I don't know, I just didn't want to be in Washington the first week in May, or in March, or April...


CARTER: That's right. And I just, I'd rather go up to my house in the country and we'd done it three years and Michael Bloomberg has taken over the party and done a great job, so...

KING: So, you're happy West Coast?

CARTER: Yes, very happy.

KING: When did you come to "Vanity Fair"?

CARTER: In 1992.

KING: From?

CARTER: I was at the "Spy" magazine and "The New York Observer" before that.

KING: How did the job come to you?

CARTER: Well, Si Newhouse had called me up and he had, I'd known him socially and at one point I was raising money for a newspaper in New York and he said, "Look, this is not the time to do it."

And I went to work at "The New York Observer" instead. And then after 11 months at the observer, I mean, all of the sudden it went from, you know, very few people reading it to, sort of, everybody in his little circle reading it. And he brought me to Conde Nast, which is the company that owns "Vanity Fair."

KING: And the things that you've been associated with could be described as quirky, right? I mean, there's no paper like "The New York Observer."

CARTER: Right.

KING: There was no magazine like "Spy."

CARTER: Right.

KING: And there's no magazine, really, like "Vanity Fair." CARTER: No, I've been very fortunate.

KING: So, are you always look for the different?

CARTER: Well, I think what you do as an editor, at least what I've tried to do is not use the same tricks at each place you go. That you have to, not reinvent yourself, but you have to just kind of develop new muscles. Because if I -- "The New York Observer" was completely different from "Spy" and this is completely different from the other two, and I'd worked at "TIME" magazine and "Life" magazine before that as well. And you just, you just want to try to keep it fresh and presumably the magazine in five years from now will be, you know, somewhat different than it is now as it just grows with the way the world grows.

KING: Why is it the most difficult of all media businesses?

CARTER: The magazine business?

KING: Yeah.

CARTER: It has to be because there's no light at the end of the tunnel. You can lose fortunes on magazines. You can also make money very quickly if it catches on. But it is, it's just very hard judging public taste. And a magazine of this size, because we run big, 17,000 word investigations, but I have to sell as many copies as magazines that can put, you know, ten ways to cure cellulite on the cover.

So, if I'm selling, say, the story that the movie "The Insider" was based on, it was a big 15,000 word story by Marie Brenner...

KING: That's right, based on your magazine story, that movie got made.

CARTER: Right. So, when you're trying to sell that story on the cover, it's very difficult, whereas, I mean, for most big monthlies who sell the same number we do, you know, they can do 150 ways to improve your wardrobe, and I just can't do that sort of thing.

So, it makes it a very difficult magazine. And also because it goes -- I have to please everybody all around the world with one issue.

KING: More with Graydon Carter in a minute. He's the editor of "Vanity Fair." Their special issue is out and a great book is out, "Vanity Fair's Hollywood." Their big party is tomorrow night and tomorrow night is the 73rd Annual Oscars. We'll be right back with one of the best in the business, Graydon Carter of "Vanity Fair," right after this.


KING: Now, before we talk about the book and then this issue, what, how do you skirt that thin line of occasionally going into tabloidism? CARTER: Well, the trouble is America, over the last ten years, has become very much a tabloid culture and so it, you know, at "Vanity Fair" I try to carve out our own version of the world and at the same time you've got to acknowledge what goes on in the world, and so, you know, things that go on in Washington that do have a tabloid aspect, you can only ignore them so much.

I remember when "The New York Times" tried to, you know, ignore the Bill Clinton-Monica Lewinsky scandal. They were sort of, they ignored it as long as they could and then realized, well, this is something you have to cover.

KING: They ignored O.J. Simpson for awhile.

CARTER: Or the O.J. -- they did the same thing on the O.J. Simpson trial. And it just, that is a part of this culture now and, for better or worse, and it may wear off after the next...

KING: Sometimes you -- you did a piece on me and some parts of it I objected to, but people came over and said they loved it. Now, there's a lot of things, people read different things into different things, right?


KING: If you make it in a magazine, though, to make "Vanity Fair" is important.

CARTER: Well, I always tell people, I say, if you became very successful and rose to a great height, where would you most like to see a story about you done and most people say "Vanity Fair" and you say, well, if you were involved in some huge sort of, you know, going to jail sort of scandal, where would you least like to read it, and it'd be "Vanity Fair," because they all their friends would read it.

People read -- I am as thin -- everybody is thin-skinned. And so that you can have 100 sentences written about you and 99 of them may say you're the best person, you know...

KING: It's the one.

CARTER: ... the greatest person, fabulous in bed, great looking, and there's one thing that says he's got large ears, and that's the thing you remember. You forget everything else except that -- and my ears are not large...

KING: Are you the deciding figure on everything that goes in?

CARTER: Yeah, I think an editor...

KING: The buck stops with you?


KING: OK. So, if someone is mad, they call you.

CARTER: They call me.

KING: For this book, you edited at first, I'm told, 1,805 photographs. Got down to 513.

CARTER: Well, 1,805 was actually after about four rounds. We started off with many thousands of photographs. And then, over the course of, I don't know, a year-and-a-half, it was very hard getting them down, because there were so many great pictures.

KING: And what is, the picture editor of a magazine is a special art, right? What is the determining factor as to what goes in, like in the book? What was your factor?

CARTER: Well, I have a number of things that I needed to, you know, you have to make sure different eras are represented. That men and women are sort of represented equally. That young and old are represented. That it's color and black and white, that it is, you know, studio portraits and outside portraits. So, there was -- it was like playing chess on many levels. You had to factor in all those things.

And then you just go for photographs that you remember. And I think that even in an MTV age where video image is everything, a photograph is still a hugely powerful sort of device. And I just looked at one of the most revolutionary shows of the last 15 years on television, and it was Ken Burns' Civil War series, which had no movement to it whatsoever.

KING: Yeah. And there's still nothing beats.

CARTER: Nothing beats a photograph...

KING: You got that at "Life" magazine, didn't you?

CARTER: A little bit, and that's where I met David Friend, who worked on the book with me.

KING: Now, didn't "Life" really write the book on how to take a picture for a news magazine?

CARTER: I think "Life" and I think "Fortune" as well. They did a great sort of photojournalism. Actually, "Vanity Fair" literally invented the notion of modern photographic portraiture.

Before "Vanity Fair," photographs were very, sort of, dusty- looking. And "Vanity Fair" invented, sort of, what is now considered, like, modern lighting in photographs and trying to capture somebody in a certain way, an iconographic way.

KING: And you have certain photographers that are you stock in trade, like Annie Leibovitz.

CARTER: Annie Leibovitz, Bruce Weber, Helmut Newton, Mario Testino, Jonathan Becker, Harry Benson.

KING: You've got -- I've been photographed by a lot of them... CARTER: Yep.

KING: You can tell the difference when you're being photographed with a great photographer.

CARTER: Yes. Yes.

KING: How do you make the assignment? How do you decide that you want Harry to do this and Ann to do that?

CARTER: Well, it is, just, an effortless, like the way you decide on a writer, attaching a writer to a story, after awhile -- it's not that people fall into certain categories. Sometimes you switch it to make it more interesting. It's availability in some cases. But, in most cases, you right off the bat, in one second, you know who should take that picture.

KING: Do you have any exclusive?

CARTER: What do you mean exclusive?

KING: The -- just photograph for you.

CARTER: Almost everything -- one of the great things about reading "Vanity Fair" is there's two ways of reading it, is looking through the magazine and seeing the pictures, because most photographs that appear in an issue of "Vanity Fair" have never been seen before. They're fresh.

KING: No, I mean, do you ever sign the photographer exclusive to you, that this photographer will not shoot for anyone else?

CARTER: A lot of the photographers are exclusive to us and most of the writers are exclusive to us. And so that, some of them have contracts with other magazines within the "Conde Nast" empire, but most photographers shoot for "Vanity Fair" alone.

KING: Let's discuss some of the photographs in the book, which we have permission to show, so we'll be showing them. Demi Moore by Annie Leibovitz, 1991. Was that before you joined them?

CARTER: That was before, yeah.

KING: That's the nude pregnancy photo.


KING: That was unbelievable.

CARTER: Well, when you think of it, and also, it is probably the, it is the most famous photograph ever taken of Demi Moore and probably one of the more memorable images of the early-90's in the United States. It was just a remarkable cover.

KING: Now, you weren't there.

CARTER: I was at "Spy" magazine. Actually, we parodied it.

KING: OK. What did you think of it when you first saw it?

CARTER: I thought it was fabulous. I thought it was just a great, great magazine cover. And I think American magazines had gone through a rough period of magazine covers, and I thought that completely broke the mold and opened things up.

KING: How much does a cover sell?

CARTER: $3.95.

KING: No, I don't mean the price. How much results from attraction to the cover?

CARTER: Well, I would say our cover sales vary between, say, 320,000 to 600,000. So, it's 100 percent difference, based on the cover.

KING: Wow. So, the right cover will get you 600...


KING: The wrong will get 300.

CARTER: Right.

KING: That's 100 percent.

CARTER: When I'm wrong often enough, you know, it averages out.

KING: We'll be right back with Graydon Carter, the editor of "Vanity Fair" magazine and the editor, with David Friend, of "Vanity Fair's Hollywood," the new book, don't go away.


KING: Let's go over some of the other brilliant photographs in this terrific book. Jennifer Lopez by Firooz Zahedi.

CARTER: Firooz Zahedi. Yeah, he...

KING: Firooz Zahedi. With her back to the camera, scanty lace.

CARTER: Well, that's when she first came on the scene. I think she was sort of famous for that sort of photograph and the angle that it was shot it. And she has since become, I mean, an extraordinary actress and a great musician.

KING: You were ahead of your time with her?

CARTER: Or behind the time, whatever it is.

KING: Whoopi Goldberg by Annie Leibovitz. Whoopi in the milk bath. CARTER: Well, again, a photograph that is probably the most lasting image you have of Whoopi Goldberg in terms of a photograph. It's just the one -- you think of Whoopi Goldberg, that's the picture you remember.

KING: And Annie does all the milk ads, I mean, having been photographed by her...

CARTER: Yes, that's right.

KING: ... I know what it's like. She's incredible.

CARTER: She's the best.

KING: Brad Pitt by Annie.

CARTER: Well, that's just a, that's a little, what Hollywood looks like now. I mean, at the very, very best. And, you know, putting, sometimes, putting these young actors in suits, and it's sort of funny, because I don't think they wear suits a great deal. And, that's just the way they dress when they're off the job.

KING: Do men, the right men, sell as well as the right woman?

CARTER: I think women generally sell better than men on magazine covers. I don't have any hard and fast rule, and anybody who is, I mean, people always say that they know what sells on magazines, and I thought, well, I don't. I just take a guess every month. But I know that something like that obviously sells well.

KING: Was Princess Di the best, or Jackie Kennedy?

CARTER: No, Princess Di, it was one of the best. Actually, the best selling cover ever in the magazine's history was Carolyn Bisset.

KING: Really?

CARTER: The Bruce Weber portrait that came in, we had to stop the presses and literally remake the cover while the magazine was on press, because it happened the weekend she died and Bruce Weber had just taken these extraordinary photographs and we got them in, relayed out the magazine, and that was the best selling cover.

KING: Because, individually, she'd be the least famous of...

CARTER: Yes, but it was of that moment, because we had a -- even though this is a big, thick magazine, and it was a very thick issue, I think it was the September issue, we had it out within seven days.

KING: Magazines used to have to, you had to know three, four months in advance. How far ahead is "Vanity Fair."

CARTER: We plan both a year a year in advance. We have stories already in the mix for next Hollywood's issue. At the same time, I have stories that can be gotten in the magazine within three weeks. So, it varies. There are long, long, long-term projects and there... KING: So, if a big story broke and you were on it, you could have it in certainly the magazine after the next...

CARTER: Within three weeks.

KING: And the idea to shoot Gwyneth Paltrow with her mother, the terrific Blythe Danner.

CARTER: Well, that was our late photographer...

KING: David Seidner.

CARTER: ... David Seidner, who would shoot in, sort of, a classical frame. And this is, I mean, it's very painterly and I thought it was a very beautiful portrait.

KING: Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty by Herb Ritts, who is famous for women.

CARTER: Very famous for women. Also does men very well and I think this, whatever the relationship between Warren Beatty and Jack Nicholson is, a little of it may be gotten from this picture.

KING: And from the movie "Reds."

CARTER: Exactly, yeah.

KING: Curtis and Lemmon.

CARTER: One of my favorite photographs.

KING: Leibovitz.

CARTER: And one of my favorite movies. In the Hollywood issue, we pull together a few, one or two, reunions each year. This year it's "Carnal Knowledge," and that was about four years ago. And we wanted to recreate their, the drag scene from "Some Like It Hot" and the brilliance of this photograph is that they're not all the way there, they're sort of half-way there in getting prepared for the costume. And there's just something about Tony Curtis', you know, briefs and the operational scar, and they're holding hands, and Jack Lemmon's expression, and the makeup and it just -- I just think it works.

KING: And then some other terrific ones. Denzel Washington, Ton Cruise, Poitier, Chris Rock, Steve Martin. What is a photograph supposed to say?

CARTER: It depends on the, it depends on the picture. I think that a great photographer will make you work a little harder. And the fact is, when you go in to have your picture taken, you know, you're sucking in your stomach and your trying to avoid having a second chin and you're trying to put on, you know, making sure your hair looks good. And a good photographer will make you work to the point where you either, yeah, you look better than you've ever looked before, but they'll get something that, say, like something that Diane Arbus can get, that it goes inside your soul a bit and that you realize, well, there is something here that I didn't notice before, that, like, in a little snap I might take it home.

KING: It's in the eye, right?

CARTER: It is in the eye.

KING: The photographers eye.

CARTER: Absolutely. And the way they light you and they -- most people like photographs that make them look better. And so, I think that that's part of it. People like to look their best and, you know, when you look at a -- when most of us look at a picture, you go, oh, my God, my hair is terrible there, or my stomach looks too big. And, but the picture can be great, great for other people, and not necessarily great for you.

KING: And the good ones thing journalistically, right? This can tell a story...

CARTER: Yes, you can tell...

KING: ... from that moment.

CARTER: You definitely can. And depending on the persons mood, as well.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Graydon Carter, the editor of "Vanity Fair" magazine and the editor, along with David Friend, of "Vanity Fair's Hollywood," the new book. The Oscar night is tomorrow. And then we'll meet Dr. Henry lee and then Bill Gallo. Don't go away.


KING: Graydon Carter is the guest. When we look at old portraits, and these are in the book, like Harlow and Hepburn and Cooper and Garbo. They were shooting differently then, weren't they?

CARTER: It was very...

KING: The lighting was different.

CARTER: ... very staged lighting. Very, sort of, the emphasis was on, sort of, glamour and, sort of, striking portraiture. And also, in those days, there was a lot more - they used silver in the film and in the film processing, and so the blacks are blacker, the whites are whiter, and there is something very memorable about those pictures. But they were artificial in the way that Hollywood was sort of artificial those days. They are very much gloss.

KING: It's not them. It's how we perceived them.

CARTER: That's right. And how you want them to be remembered.

KING: Dealing with publicists. "Vanity Fair" wants to do a story on someone and the someone either doesn't want the story done or, is that a problem?

CARTER: It hasn't been -- it's not a problem for us. I think that, I'll sort of do the story, no matter what.

KING: You mean, so if they're not going to cooperate, you're going to do the story?

CARTER: You can still do the story, and I -- unless the person is somebody who prefers to lead a private life and has led a private life, I will leave them alone. But if they're in the, in the parade of news, you can't let that sit in your way. And when it comes to Hollywood things, I think we get offered most things first, if there are things being offered. And I either make the right choice or the wrong choice, and if I say no, they move on to somebody else. I don't always make the right choice.

KING: Was Lewinsky by Herb Ritts the right choice?

CARTER: Yeah, I think it was, at the time. I mean, this is a, this woman was the, you know, the center of attention of the entire United States and I, you know, actually David Friend worked on this, getting a photo shoot with her. And I had to talk Herb into doing it. He didn't want to do it originally.

KING: He didn't?

CARTER: No. And it just, the pictures turned out, it was just a moment. And, yeah, I think definitely, it was a good thing.

KING: Has "Vanity Fair" had a cover that went wrong in that the story didn't fit when it came out, something had happened in the interim?

CARTER: Well, since I'm not a news weekly, there are a lot of stories I can miss and nobody's going to notice me missing them. I mean, I have covers that don't perform particularly well and there are times when you spend months on a cover and then all of the sudden, the second it is printed, you go what was I thinking?

And it will happen in this, because stories look different at every stage along the way, from the manuscript to a galley to a page proof to the printed magazine. It takes on greater power as it goes along. And the same thing happens with photographs and with covers. That some of it looks good in the office or the planning room, where we're working on it, but it's very different when it actually comes out. And it can either look much better or much worse.

KING: Do you look for new challenges, Graydon? Or you want to stay with "Vanity Fair" ad infinite?

KING: I think I've got one of the great jobs in the world and, you know, we have this book, and I'm producing a small documentary movie...

KING: Are you?

CARTER: With some friends. It's a documentary on Robert Evans, the life of Robert Evans.

KING: Interesting life.

CARTER: Interesting life. And so, but I wake up every morning, I can hardly wait to get to work and I can hardly wait to go home at the end of the day. I think that's what, that's not a bad...

KING: Toughest part of your job?

CARTER: Toughest part of the job is waking up in the morning and getting to work. No...

KING: You're guessing a lot.

CARTER: The what?

KING: You're guessing.

CARTER: Yeah, I guess, and I have, if I'm in doubt, I have lots of people to ask about it, but the toughest part of the job is just, is staying interesting. And I still find it that difficult. And work is work. It's why they call it work.

KING: Thanks, Graydon.

CARTER: My pleasure, Larry. Thank you very much.

KING: One of the best in the business. Graydon Carter, the editor of "Vanity Fair" magazine. Their big issue is out now, and the terrific book, with David Friend, "Vanity Fair's Hollywood."

Dr. Henry Lee, if you think of medical examiners, you think of him. He's next. Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING WEEKEND a frequent guest, Dr. Henry Lee, the nation's preeminent forensic scientist, former Connecticut State Commissioner of Public Safety, now Chief Ameritus of the Connecticut State Police Forensic Laboratory and the co-author, with Dr. Jerry Labriola, of "Famous Crimes Revisited."

What led you, Dr. Lee, to write this book?

HENRY LEE, AUTHOR, "FAMOUS CRIMES REVISITED": Well, it's a long story, Larry. Over my 45 years experience with law enforcement, forensic science, I realized in the past many mistake been made at the crime scene. There are a lesson to learn. So, that's why I make a decision to write this book, to share some of our experience with those famous cases revealed.

KING: Fascinating to go through all these. Lindbergh baby killing. There are some that still think that Bruno Richard Hauptmann did not do that crime. Do you?

LEE: Well, we look at the evidence. There are some evidence point to him. For example, the couple with steps (ph) were in the letter and, of course, when he was arrested they found some money on him. But, for him alone to design this case, to execute that case, again, it's not possible.

KING: How about Sam Shepherd? Another fascinating case discussed in your book who -- was he ever fully exonerated?

LEE: Yes, the second trial, as you probably now, the first trial, he was convicted. Second trial, he was found not guilty.

KING: Did you find -- and did you agree with that?

LEE: There are evidence indicates, for example, recently, they did some DNA on the blood stain, doesn't belong to Sam Shepherd, an unknown third person. So, there are evidence point to could be an unknown killer.

KING: Your claim is that many mistakes are made at the investigation point, right?

LEE: Excellent point, Larry. Many of the investigation is original crime scene, at the scene. The scene was not handled properly...

KING: Yeah. Is that -- is the Ramsey case a good example of that?

LEE: Ramsey case is an excellent example. O.J. Simpson case is another example, of course, Vincent Foster, that's the third, recent case, shows that crime scene training, crime scene procedure, has to be standardized.

KING: Aren't police well-trained in what to do when they come upon a scene?

LEE: In recent years, yes. As a matter of fact, the National Institute of Justice recently published a couple booklet about standardized crime scene. Many police department now will all look at that procedure-wise. Every year we start running workshop, training workshop. As a matter of fact, almost every week I fly around the country and go abroad to train the investigator to do the proper crime scene procedure.

KING: Do you have any regrets about being part of the defense in the O.J. Simpson case?

LEE: Yes, I do. You might know, that case become, you know, such a media hype, I'm probably not going to get involved. Your personal life complete destroyed by the focus of media, everybody follow you, all the time.

KING: How about the fact that you testified for someone that most people think committed the crime?

LEE: Yes, of course, when the case just happened, this country right of way sort of split. Most of Caucasians think he did it. Most minorities think he did not do it. And most Chinese, we don't care. Unfortunately, the, you know, the public always has an opinion on every case, not only JO case, even Vincent Foster case, some think that's conspiracy. Kennedy assassination still have many people think that's a cover-up.

KING: Let me get a break. Our guest is Dr. Henry Lee. His new book is "Famous Crimes Revisited," co-authored with Dr. Jerry Labriola. In a little while, Bill Gallo, the dean of the country sports cartoonists, has another, a terrific collection book out. We'll be right back with Dr. Lee after this.


KING: We're back with Dr. Henry Lee. The book is "Famous Crimes Revisited." Was Vince Foster a suicide?

LEE: Yes, our, I did reexamine all the physical evidence, went to Mercy Park with FBI agent and independent counsel investigator. We spent numerous weekends reexamined the scene, reexamined each piece of evidence. All the evidence indicate to me consistent with a suicide.

KING: Was Lee Oswald the only shooter in the Kennedy case?

LEE: Well, that's a good question. I wish I could answer you. Many people ask me that question. With the JFK case, I still remember, you know, November 22, 1963. That time, I was a police captain in Taiwan Police Department. I heard the sad news. I said, such a wonderful president, who would want to kill him. And over the year, I always curious about it. So, a couple years ago, when commission asked me to review some of the evidence.

However, today, because, unless you have a thorough review, examine each piece of evidence, original evidence, many of the pieces we can't find anymore. That's why make this case very difficult.

There are, of course, you know, Larry, there are different theories...

KING: So, but, you can't say definitively then that one person, acting alone, did it?

LEE: So far, all the evidence pointed to me just one person, because the rifle was found in the book repository and a finger print was found and a casing, everything indicates. Whether, of course, I wasn't there, and that's why those cases are interesting. Takes a lot of time to review.

KING: You were a police chief in Taiwan, police captain in Taiwan.

LEE: Yes.

KING: Why did you choose forensic medicine as a specialty?

LEE: Well, when I was a police captain, early days, when we investigate a case, pretty simple. Only use one technique, that's called interrogation. Any time anything happened, we just roundup all the usual suspect until one confess. If nobody confess, we just take them to the backroom, five minutes later we got seven confession, now.

Sometimes you don't know those confessions are real or not and many of the time we found out innocent person being, you know, under the pressure to confess for the crime they not committed.

So, that's why I started looking into there must be a better way to solve crime. I developed an interest in crime scene investigation and forensic science and in 1965 I come to United States to further my study. And when I finished my Bachelor's degree in forensic science, then my Master's degree in biochemistry, and my final Ph.D. in molecular biology, so I can use my crime scene experience with scientific knowledge together, to develop the field of forensics.

KING: And the public is fascinated. We have shows like "CSI," we have "Quincy."

LEE: Yes, so many shows now. Every night, you turn on the TV, it's something about crime scene, about forensic. And some are real. Some are just too dramatized.

KING: DNA changed the whole world of your science?

LEE: Yes, DNA has been changed tremendously. Now we can look at an individual in the molecular level. We can positively identify somebody. In addition to DNA, of course, fingerprint. Now we have 250 different ways to process latent print and image enhancement. Massive amount of database, for example, APHIS and CODIS database, that gives the law enforcement a new tool to solving crime, all crime.

KING: You expect the Ramsey case to be solved?

LEE: Ramsey case, unfortunately, the first six hours were really lost at crime scene. Now, of course, over the year, a tremendous effort put into this case. Boulder District Attorney's Office, Alexander (ph) and, he's a member of his team (ph) and a Boulder Police Department investigator. However, the case has come boil down to a simple issue. Is it only intruder, or inside, somebody from the inside. Also, we have to examine the basic issue here. Is that really a homicide or just a bizarre accident and subsequently the scene was staged?

KING: Always good seeing you, Henry. Thank you very much.

LEE: It's seeing you, talk to you, Larry.

KING: Dr. Henry Lee. The book, "Famous Crimes Revisited," co- authored with Dr. Jerry Labriola. And we'll be back in the remainder of the program with one of my favorite people, Bill Gallo, the ageless sports cartoonist of "The New York Daily News" with the new book "Drawing a Crowd." Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome one of my favorite people. He's the dean of the country's sports cartoonist. He's been a cartoonist and columnist for "The New York Daily News" for 40 years. His new book is "Drawing a Crowd" by Bill Gallo with Phil Cornell. Why did you choose, Bill, to draw rather than write?

BILL GALLO, AUTHOR, "DRAWING A CROWD": Well, Larry, I think that I thought about it. I was a writer before in my newspaper experience and I did both. I was a reporter and then I started drawing and I got to watch Leo O'Mealia you remember him, and Boris Jenkins, Jr. (ph) and Willard Mullen. I said, there's a great way to tell a story, better than writing. And it just captured my fancy and I went ahead and did it.

KING: Sports cartooning is unusual, not every paper has a sports cartoonist.

GALLO: No, it's, I guess you can call me a dinosaur. At one time, well, 40 years ago, even before that, there were 11 papers in New York City, everyone of them had a sports cartoon and they usually led the paper. Everyone except "The Times." They were kind of like the stars of the paper, I kind of liked that.

KING: So, what changed?

GALLO: What changed? Fewer newspapers, number one. There are only three in New York City now. People got their entertainment elsewhere and, I don't know what happened. They just don't want to hire sports cartoonists anymore. As I said before, I am a dinosaur and I accept it.

KING: In "Drawing a Crowd," it's a great collection, by the way. This is a wonderful book. I was proud to receive it and happy to look forward to it. Why so much of Bill Gallo's work on boxing?

GALLO: Well, I do like boxing. Boxing I my favorite. When I was a little kid, about eight years old, my father was a newspaper man. He was a sports writer, and somehow you weren't allowed to get into the fights, I still don't know, my father's been gone a long time, so I can't question him. Somehow he got this eight-year-old kid into the fights and you weren't allowed to go in there until 14.

I just fell in love with the game. I boxed myself in the Marine Corp. and it's just, it's the number one sport in my little bag.

KING: Are they the best athletes?

GALLO: Well, they're the most noble, let's put it that way. Yeah, I guess you could say that -- I think the best athletes are probably the basketball players, the, you know, they keep running up and down, they've got to be in great shape. But a boxer also does. The boxer is the noble breed, that I call them.

They're simple kind of guys and they're good-hearted kind of guys. I'm talking generally...

KING: Yeah. GALLO: And they are, I would say, I'd rather be around boxers than baseball players or football players, not that I don't want to be around them, but the boxers is the guy I like to be around.

KING: Alright. We'll take a break and we'll come right back with more of Bill Gallo, don't go away.


KING: We're back with Bill Gallo. His new book, "Drawing a Crowd." The guy has an incredible career. The book is kind of like a conversation between him and the reader. The journalists Phil Cornell is involved. It's organized into 25 chapters, like Mantle and Maris on Highway 61, Iwo Jima and Vietnam, fair ball about racism, Ali and Joe D. He's been named the best in the business in many, many years. The National Cartoonist Society gave him a lifetime achievement award. How did you pick what pictures go in the book?

GALLO: Well, you know, I've done thousands. I probably drew 15,000 cartoons and Phil and I got together, we made these chapters up, and then we just went through, just wading through, like you do, and picking the best grapes, you know? And we focused in on every sport. We led off with boxing. But I even got the war in there because I had quite an experience in World War II.

KING: You were on Iwo Jima, right?

GALLO: I was on Iwo Jima, yeah. That was the last of the battles that I participated in. I had been in Quadralene (ph), Saipan, Tinian and Iwo Jima, so...

KING: Boy.

GALLO: I guess I had it, yeah.

KING: Yeah, I would say you did. You got an award. Particularly, when they picked your best, they said the one of Leon Sphinx titled "Potbelly."

GALLO: That was a reader's poll and they kind of liked that. It's not my favorite, but it was a...

KING: What's yours?

GALLO: Well, mine is two of them. One is funny and one is sad. The sad one I'll talk about first, which is when Munson crashed his plane and had two kids walking away, they didn't want to play the game anymore. And then, the other one was, the funny one was, when there was a bank heist with the...

KING: Aqueduct?

GALLO: Yeah, that one.

KING: The racetrack, I remember that one. GALLO: Where the horseplayer is in his bed with his wife and he has the mask on, the gambler's mask. And she's asking him, "How'd you make out at the track, dear?" and he says, "Well, I finally got even" and there's a million bucks at the foot of the bed.

KING: Now, you list your most gifted athletes that you've drawn, Michael Jordan right up on top.

GALLO: Yeah, well, he's the best.

KING: Is he easy to draw?

GALLO: Well, yeah, because the easiest guys to draw are the guys that have something special. Well, he's a dome-head, you know, and he was pretty easy to draw. The hard guys are the good-looking guys like Tom Seaver, you know, there's sort of kind of bland faces. But give me a Joe Namath with a nice good nose and that long hair and they're the easiest.

KING: Joe DiMaggio too?

GALLO: Oh, yeah, Joe was easy. Muhammad Ali was easy too. And, you know, I drew -- it's in the book, you see Muhammad Ali when he was preparing for a fight. He was very, oh, way out of shape. So I went to Dear Lake to see him train and I came back with a sketch, it was a gag sketch, but it was true. I had Muhammad Ali walking with a wheelbarrow and what he has in the wheelbarrow is his stomach. He got a kick out of that, he hung that up.

But, anyway, through the years, to this day, he says hello to me like this. He doesn't say a word. He just goes like that. And I know what he means and I go, say hello back.

KING: Sugar Ray Robinson. Was he the best you ever saw?

GALLO: No, the greatest fighter that ever lived. I don't think I get any arguments with that except maybe Willie Pep, you know, who some people might say that Willie Pep was a greater boxer. Well, possibly he was a greater boxer, but Sugar Ray had everything.

KING: What do you make of the division now?

GALLO: Well, it's a non-division, it's, you know, it's not what it used to be and the heavy-weight champion of the world used to be like a king around, you know, he would walk around and people would follow him like the pied piper. Today, I think Evander Hollyfield can walk from the East Side to the West Side and nobody will turn around.

It's not -- it lost it's luster, but that doesn't say it won't come back.

KING: Did you enjoy the Mantle and Maris era?

GALLO: Oh, sure, that was a great era. That was a terrific era. That was a great year, 1961. Two guys vying for the same crown. Don't forget Mantle, Mantle might have, if he didn't get hurt, he might have broken the record with Maris, you know. But those were great years.

KING: Billy Crystal has just done a movie about it for HBO.

GALLO: Yeah, I know, I know. I'm anxious to see that.

KING: And those two guys look just like Mantle and Maris.

GALLO: Yeah, I noticed that. Yeah.

KING: Where do you get your ideas from? In other words, like, do you, does it come quickly to you? What's your method of operation?

GALLO: Well, look, you really relate everything to a cartoon. You know, a newspaper guy is always working. Pete Hamil said once that a newspaper man is even working when he's looking out the window. I believe that. That's true. A great line, but I never forgot it.

But I relate everything. It's always with me, you know, what I have trouble with is when I get into the office, is not getting an idea, it's throwing away a lot of them. You know, you put them all in one sack and then you pick out the best ones. And you boil it down.

KING: It always has to -- does it always have to relate to today?

GALLO: Oh, yeah. Oh, no, I want to be with the news. That's what makes me a cartoonist columnist, is that...

KING: Alright, how did you come up with Basement Bertha and Yuchie and Blayfarb and Lunard?

GALLO: Oh, well, those are just - well, Yuchie is the kid in all of us, you know...

KING: Yeah.

GALLO: ... and I tell about it in the book and how it really happened and it's a long story. But Bertha is just a compilation of a Yogi Berra, a Sancho Panza from Cervantes and Pearl Bailey, those kind of, pixy kind of people, and I compile them all in one little fat dame that likes to say smart things every once in a while.

KING: Who is your favorite cartoonist?

GALLO: My favorite cartoonist was Willard Mullen (ph). Do you remember him?

KING: Very well, "The Brooklyn Bum."

GALLO: Yeah, well, he was a great cartoonist. And got to be a friend of mine before he passed on. I don't think he has a match, there was nobody that matched him. He sent me a letter that I still have, it's one of the greatest compliments I ever had as a cartoonist. It was just one line. He refers to a cartoon I did on the St. Luis Cardinals and he says, "I wish I would have thought of that." And that was it, that was a great compliment, coming from him, if you... KING: Best compliment you can get. How old are you now, Bill?

GALLO: Well, I'm on the strong side of 70.

KING: Keep on keeping on, you're the best.

GALLO: OK. Thanks a lot.

KING: Bill Gallo. The book is "Drawing a Crowd" by Bill Gallo with Phil Cornell and you'll have delightful hours with this book. He's the best at what he does.

We hope you enjoyed our show tonight with Mr. Carter and Dr. Lee and Bill Gallo. We hope you enjoy the Academy Awards tomorrow night, and CNN will be covering a lot of the pre- and post-activity with that, and we'll be back live with you on Monday night, a special edition of LARRY KING WEEKEND will air tomorrow night as well.

Thanks for joining us, from all of our crew, good night.



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