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CNN Talkback Live

Cincinnati Unrest: Black, White and Blue

Aired April 18, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, there's a curfew. You need to be inside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The curfew will not exist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: The streets of Cincinnati are calm, but the city remains on edge over the shooting of a young black man by a white police officer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTTY JOHNSON, PRESIDENT, SENTINEL POLICE ASSOCIATION: I would like to offer an apology, and I mean this, to the citizens of the city of Cincinnati, because we in law enforcement here in the city of Cincinnati failed you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH FANGMAN, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: It's just plain wrong that the country is being given the false impression that these deaths of these 15 black men were just unlawful deaths or accidental shootings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Is there a racial divide within the Cincinnati police force.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL IGAR, AU LAW PROFESSOR: And the whole truth is that in our country, the operation of our police agencies and prosecutors is shot through with racism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. ANDRE SMITH, SENTINEL POLICE ASSOCIATION MEMBER: I felt it necessary for me to remove what I felt was a personal stench of FOP membership. I, along with another member, resigned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Is the wall of silence crumbling?

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. When a Cincinnati police officer confronts a black suspect, what does he see? Do fear and racism interfere with his or her judgment? These are questions that the entire community is wrestling with in Cincinnati, questions that involve racial profiling and possibly racial divisions within the police ranks themselves.

Our guests today our Scotty Johnson, a detective with the Cincinnati Police. He is president of the Sentinel Police Association, which is an organization for black police officers. Also with us is Officer Keith Fangman, president of the Cincinnati Fraternal Order of Police.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

Detective Johnson, let me start with you, because yesterday, you apologized to the African-American community in Cincinnati, and you also criticized the Fraternal Order of Police. What problems is it that you have with that organization? Are you hearing me, detective?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you hear?

JOHNSON: No.

BATTISTA: No, these guys are -- you know what? I don't think either one of them can hear me.

JOHNSON: I can hear you, yes, ma'am.

BATTISTA: Can you hear? Detective, can you hear me now? No, they can't. You know what? We're going to have to go to commercial break and work out these audio problems, and we'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right, I think we've worked the bugs out of our audio system. And once again, with us today, Scotty Johnson, a detective with the Cincinnati Police. He is the president, as we said, of the Sentinel Police Association, which is an organization for black police officers. And also with us is Officer Keith Fangman, president of the Cincinnati Fraternal Order of Police.

Gentlemen, good to have you. I assume you both can hear me now.

JOHNSON: Yes.

FANGMAN: Yes, ma'am.

BATTISTA: All right, detective, let me start with you, because yesterday, you apologized to the African-American community in Cincinnati, and you also were critical of the Fraternal Order of Police there in Cincinnati. What problems are you having with that organization?

JOHNSON: Well, I wouldn't say we're having problems with that organization. What took place yesterday is that you had two black police officers resign from the Fraternal Order of Police. They related to me -- relayed to me that they were feeling disenfranchised and feeling under represented by the Fraternal Order of Police, and they also talked about the fact that they had been -- they were fed up after -- one officer is a 15-year veteran, the other is a 14-year veteran, and I think this week has been a very -- a week that has revealed a lot that is going on here in Cincinnati, and both of the officers just had frankly related to me that they were fed up and they had had enough. And they resigned from the Fraternal Order of Police.

As far as the apology goes, I just feel like we were -- we here in the city of Cincinnati and especially law enforcement have been providing a disservice to the disenfranchised of the city of Cincinnati for too long. And I keep hearing there's going to be a new Cincinnati, I'm believing there's going to be a new Cincinnati. So as a law enforcement officer that played a part in some of the things that have gone on over the past five to seven years, I felt it was necessary to start the healing for real, not with just talk but to start the healing for real and apologize to the black community, along with every citizen in the city of Cincinnati and the youth also to say we're sorry.

BATTISTA: But as I understand it, you felt the need to apologize because you felt like a fair number of Cincinnati police officers were treating black citizens in Cincinnati without courtesy, without respect, and therefore, you felt an apology was necessary.

JOHNSON: Absolutely. Being a 15-year veteran, I've seen a lot here in Cincinnati, and I felt as though what culminated this week was very unfortunate. And we never want to see that happen again here in Cincinnati. So I felt it was necessary, Scotty Johnson, that has been in law enforcement for 15 years, to apologize and to -- and really start the healing process here in Cincinnati. How can you go wrong with an apology? I'm sincere about it, and I pray that we have a better Cincinnati. And nobody's condoning what took place, there is -- we need to start a healing between the police and the community here, and I pray I started that process.

BATTISTA: Officer Fangman, do you think that an apology was or is necessary?

FANGMAN: I do think an apology was necessary, but not from our police officers. I think the apology should come from a number of other quarters, specifically the elected officials in Cincinnati, members of the city council, and the mayor, who inflamed the situation immediately after the shooting with their inflammatory rhetoric and their anti-police statements. I think the rioters and the looters of the decent law-abiding citizens of this city an apology, the rioters and looters who caused millions of dollars in damage with the fires that they started, businesses burned, hundreds of thousands of dollars of merchandise looted. I think they owe the innocent citizens, who were dragged from their cars and targeted because of their race, citizens who were dragged and savagely beaten simply because they got too close to the riot zone. I think the rioters who shot one of our officers in the abdomen but for the grace of God, the .32 caliber bullet struck his belt buckle and then struck his .32 caliber vest. Had it not been for that, he probably would have been killed during the riot. I think those are where some of the apologies should be coming from.

BATTISTA: Well, I think most people would agree with you on that. Do you agree with Detective Johnson that Cincinnati police officers could show more respect or courtesy? Is there a problem between Cincinnati Police and the community?

FANGMAN: Well, I think that the answer is we can always improve police-community relations. There's no doubting that. And we certainly could work on improving relations with the black community. I'm not going to sit here and say that there's not a problem between the police division in the black community. I think that would be putting your head in the sand.

However, I do want to address very quickly one of the questions you asked to my friend, Scott Johnson, and that is about the relationship between white and black officers. I was elected president of the Fraternal Order of Police in 1997, and when I ran for this position, I made a campaign promise that I wanted not just black officers but Sentinel board members to serve on the three most powerful committees in the FOP: the wage team, the grievance committee and the political endorsement committee. I kept that promise within one week of being elected. And to this day, for the past four years, to this day, Sentinel board members are represented on all of those very powerful committees, including Scotty, who graciously accepted my invitation to be on the wage team four years ago. He did an outstanding job. I reappointed him two years ago because of his excellent work. And the last contract was the first time in the history of the Cincinnati police division that the FOP president and the Sentinel president literally sat side by side in negotiating salary benefits and working conditions on behalf of our officers.

BATTISTA: That having been said, Detective Johnson, as I understand it, these concerns of black officers have been coming up for quite some time. There have been warnings from within the department that this kind of a situation was brewing. So do you feel like the FOP in the city was addressing those concerns? I mean, would it have gotten to the point that it got to last week if you had?

JOHNSON: Well, I think that -- I think that along with the police department, Keith is absolutely right. City officials owe the disenfranchised here in the city an apology also. Yeah, there were warnings. I attend almost every city council meeting, and the people responded and said how frustrated they were with the relationship. They responded and asked vital questions as to what was going on between the police and the community. So there was time and time again, people kept pointing out the disparity and treatment. They kept pointing out these things. And too bad -- and it is really, really horrific nobody listened. And as a result of that, people cried out.

Now I'm not condoning the way they cried out. I have no problem with what happened last Monday at city council. I have no problem with what happened last week after city council meeting when they responded to district one and demonstrated. I have a problem when the brick came through district one's window, but people were crying out time and time again. There's disparity in treatment. We don't feel like we're safe when we encounter the police. So the warnings have been coming for the last five to seven years.

BATTISTA: Officer Fangman, what did you do and other members of the FOP to help address these concerns?

FANGMAN: Well, for the past four years that I've been FOP president, I have made a policy of going out into the community and have done so on a regular basis speaking with citizens about the role of the police union and how we can effectively work with the community improving police-community relations. Scotty and I both volunteered to be on a police-community relations round table, and we worked very hard on that initiative for the last six months and our work continues.

As it relates to race relations within the police division, Bobbie, I really think that you need to put it in its proper context. Two days ago in the Cincinnati fire division, 120 black firefighters, 120 resigned from the Cincinnati Fire Union, which is separate from the FOP that Scotty, and I belong to. A hundred-twenty resigned and it barely made a blip on the local or national radar screen. But in the police division where we have approximately 300 African-American officers, only two left the Fraternal Order of Police, and it's all of a sudden become a national news story. I find that somewhat interesting.

BATTISTA: Well...

FANGMAN: Let me finish very quickly. The one person -- one out of the two that did resign, an African-American sergeant, stated that the FOP doesn't do a good enough job of representing black officers. That's a very curious statement to make considering that this particular African-American sergeant was fired from the police division for misconduct, and it was the FOP that appealed and got his job back. We also appealed a suspension of his and had that reduced. And on a third occasion, we appealed a contract violation on his behalf and successfully appealed it to arbitration. So it's important that you and your viewers get those kind of facts before these type of stories become national incidents.

BATTISTA: Well, I can tell you from an editorial standpoint, obviously, the resigning of the officers from FOP came in the aftermath of this shooting and the rioting, which gave it significance and context that not there for the fire department situation that you're talking about. But maybe it is part of the larger picture in Cincinnati there.

Detective Johnson, let me ask you if you think that racial profiling is going on in that department and if that's at the core of some of the problems here?

JOHNSON: Racial profiling is going on all across the country, and it does exist here in Cincinnati. If I may address one issue, the fact that Keith has -- Keith has stepped up to the plate and he has appointed Sentinel members, Sentinel board members to the most powerful committees within the division and in the union, and that is true. But it still doesn't get to the fact that we have a lot of -- I talked over the last two days to up to 75 black police officers, and they're feeling disenfranchised. Not all 75 said they're going to leave the union, but we need to start addressing this problem before it becomes a situation where we do have 120 or more black police officers leave the union. We've got to work on and be honest with each other with what's really going on with how people are feeling. And because the relationship between a few are solid and good, we need to be able to address everybody to make sure that they are all feeling inclusive.

Getting back to racial profiling, yeah, I do believe it does exist here in Cincinnati. The Sentinel Police Association over the last two years has gotten hundreds and hundreds of complaints of disparity in treatment when stopped by the police. We submitted a 150-page memo to city council outlining the complaints and the problems that were going on, but once again here in the city of Cincinnati, that complaint, along with the Gilligan report, another report that was done here in Cincinnati after 1994 indictment that was served on the city of Cincinnati by the Sentinel Police Association, is somewhere collecting dust.

As a result of city council and city official believing -- city officials believing that there's nothing wrong here in Cincinnati, you saw exactly what was wrong here in Cincinnati over the last week. And it culminated into an uprising where property damage took place and people were injured.

BATTISTA: All right, Detective Johnson, we thank you very much for being with us today. We've got to take a break here. We will hear from the ACLU in just a moment. Officer Fangman will be staying with us. I've got retired police officers in the audience, and we'll talk to them. The question today: Is racial profiling a problem in your city if you're aware of it? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL keyword, CNN. And while you're there, read my note on today's show. It's a chance for me to share my personal thoughts with you. And if you like, you can e-mail yours in return. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Is racial profiling necessary?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would not want anyone to stop my son just because he's driving a nice car or, you know, he's with a group of guys and he has not done anything. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It depends on what they do with the information that they get back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's wrong, because you don't know who that person is by the way they dress, by the way they look. You don't know who they are, so, yeah, it's wrong, definitely wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here quickly.

And Randy, you are a former -- retired now police officer, correct?

RANDY: Yes, I'm a retired Air Force police officer.

BATTISTA: How do you feel about the racial profiling question in particular?

RANDY: I think racial profiling is wrong. However, data collection for any organizations -- there are many if not most police organizations don't have enough money, don't have enough manpower, and this is a way that they can use their resources to fight crime. And it's a tool. If it's used right, it's good.

BATTISTA: Well, we're going to talk a little bit later on in the show between the difference -- there is a difference between racial profiling and criminal profiling, and maybe that's where part of the misunderstanding arises.

But meanwhile, the ACLU has filed a lawsuit against the city of Cincinnati over police practices. Scott Greenwood is general counsel for the Ohio ACLU as well as chief litigator of the case against Cincinnati.

Thank you for joining us. If you could tell us without getting terribly legal, if you will, what the basis of the lawsuit is against the city.

SCOTT GREENWOOD, GENERAL COUNSEL, OHIO ACLU: Well, thanks for having me on today. The basis of the lawsuit that we filed is not just what is commonly referred to as racial profiling. Instead, it's about what we see as 30 years of promises by the city of Cincinnati to change police conduct and to change police practices, to change accountability, and to restore public confidence in the police. That's why we filed the lawsuit. We have a broad range of activities that we've alleged violate rights of citizens, and I think they really sort of crystallized in what we've seen this last week and by what we just heard from the president of the Sentinels. A large percentage of the community, whether rightly or wrongly, believes that it is targeted for enforcement by members of the Cincinnati Police division. That's why we filed the lawsuit.

BATTISTA: And how did this come to your attention? This has been going on supposedly for 30 years. Was it just a dirty little secret in Cincinnati or something? I mean, how did it come to your attention finally?

GREENWOOD: It's not really a dirty little secret, but what we see happening is every time there is a flare-up in community-police relations, there's a report, there's a blue ribbon panel or a committee or a bunch of notable worthies who put together some type of a study. And the city makes lots of promises, and then they put it up on a shelf somewhere and we never see it again.

FANGMAN: Bobbie, can I respond?

BATTISTA: Yeah, go right ahead.

FANGMAN: OK, thank you. I'll be the first to admit that there is obviously a belief in the African-American community that racial profiling exists. Not being an African-American myself, obviously, it's going to be difficult for me to sit here and say that their belief is wrong. And I can understand why people would feel that way. But the reality is that in today's day and age, this police division in Cincinnati has made it perfectly clear that race-based stops, which are unlawful, will not be tolerated. And this police union that I head has made it clear that we will not defend a practice of racial profiling.

And you don't get to the heart of racial profiling by data collection. Most people agree that simply collecting data does not prove or disapprove the existence of racial profiling. Simply having an officer fill out a piece of paper when they make a traffic stop is not going to get to the meat of this issue, not to mention the fact that people actually believe officers are racially profiling citizens, I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that an officer is going to tell on themselves, so to speak, when they fill out a form.

Here's the point. If citizens believe they've been the victim of racial profiling in this city or any other city, I would hope they can file a complaint. We have a number of different agencies in Cincinnati that those complaints can be filed with: with the police internal affairs division or two civilian agencies, the police review panel.

BATTISTA: Are you saying -- has anyone done that? And what is the result of that if it's found that the officer was guilty of racial profiling?

FANGMAN: Well, I will tell you that in the past year, we've had approximately one million contacts with citizens either by traffic stops or pedestrian contacts. And of those one million contacts, there were four complaints filed with the city of Cincinnati. I'm not speaking of the complaints that were filed with the ACLU, but four complaints that were filed with the city of Cincinnati. The difference is complaints that are filed with the city are investigated; complaints that have been filed to the ACLU are anecdotal and have not been investigated nor have they been confirmed.

GREENWOOD: Well, that's really part of the problem, that there is distrust that a number of citizens have for the processes that are already there. We've heard from hundreds of people in our interviews with people in Cincinnati, and many, many people say they don't trust the process. They don't trust the process that's there because it's too long, it's too cumbersome. And a year later, there's nothing that happens. Of the 10 most recent disciplinary actions in which officers -- the city of Cincinnati has lost the last 10 disciplinary appeals that have been brought by Mr. Fangman's union. In one very recent notable case, an officer who assaulted a citizen with Alzheimer's, body slammed him to the ground in a convenience store, was fired from the police force and then ordered to be reinstated. Today, he's on the promotion list. And that really undermines citizen confidence in the department.

FANGMAN: Well, let me jump in there and say that the assertment -- the assessment, I should say, and the assertion that this police division cannot get rid of bad apples is blatantly false and a total misconstruing of the facts. Yes, there have been 10 officers that have filed for arbitration, but what you're not being told, Bobbie, is that in the past four years, five Cincinnati police officers were charged criminally. They were convicted. Four of them are in jail. All five were fired, four of them are in jail. The FOP, the police union, we do not offer any defense nor do we offer any legal representation for any Cincinnati police officer that commits a criminal act. So this nonsense that the city can't fire our cops is nonsense.

BATTISTA: I think -- and I do think that perception does exist about the FOP in your community. Jennifer in Cincinnati just e-mailed this note to you, Officer Fangman. She said, "I am so tired of hearing Mr. Fangman complain about the mayor and city council. That's all we hear from him.

"Please, Mr. Fangman, put aside your personal vendetta against the mayor and take some responsibility for your department's action. You are not in a position to be casting stones. Or should that be bean bags and rubber bullets?"

FANGMAN: Well, that's a real cute, immature comment. There's no personal vendetta between the FOP and the mayor. How could there be a personal vendetta when the Fraternal Order of Police endorsed the mayor when he ran for city council a year-and-a-half ago? That's absolutely silly. We do strongly disagree with the way the mayor has handled police community incidents the past few months but we endorsed the man a year and a half ago. There's no personal vendetta.

And as far as racial profiling, I'll give you a very quick example. And Bobbie, you hit the nail on the head. There's a difference between racial profiling and suspect profiling. If a suspect robs a bank at gunpoint and the 911 call goes from the bank teller that the suspect is a male black, middle-aged, medium-height driving a red Ford, I can guarantee you we'll pull over probably 40 middle-aged male blacks driving red Fords within the next two hours, 39 of whom are completely innocent, but they're going to be stopped, detained and questioned.

Now, there's a lot of folks in the black community that believe that's racial profiling. It is not racial profiling. It is suspect profiling. But if the suspect were a male white, and we pulled over 40 male whites, 39 of whom are completely innocent, then all of a sudden, it is not racial profiling accusations. But, we're all told that's good police work.

So, the person who sent that e-mail needs to understand, my job is to defend our officers when they are right, and I'm not going to back down from that. And I will continue to speak out on behalf of the good officers of this city.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Rasheed quickly here in the audience.

RASHEED: Yes, I have a question for you, sir. You said that you fired five police officers, but on a daily basis, this happens to me every day that I go home in my life. Every day that I walk out of my mother's house, she tells me, look, if you get stopped by the police, put your hands on the wheel. Don't let -- you're 22 years old, you're about to graduate from college; this happens to a black man every day of his life.

OK. You've got five cops that got suspended; this happens every day. I mean, you don't know what I go through, you don't know any black man here listening what I'm saying who's in the audience. We've been stopped, maybe more times than you stop people since you've been a police officer. You don't know.

FANGMAN: What I would say is the correlation between your personal experiences and whether or not officers in the city of Cincinnati have been fired, I don't understand the correlation. But I will address your personal anecdote there. Have you filed complaints when you feel that you've been unlawfully stopped?

RASHEED: Yes, I have. I shouldn't have to file it, you should know, that OK, it don't look like they did anything, you don't need to cuff him and throw him on the ground, you don't need to throw him in back of the police car and throw his brother on top of him.

BATTISTA: Do police ever apologize for pulling the wrong man?

RASHEED: I've never been apologized to.

BATTISTA: Could it be something as simple that?

FANGMAN: Bobbie, that's something we as officers need to work on. If that's self criticism, then I will make it. I think many times, when officers do stop a suspect who matches the description of a wanted suspect, and after we stop them and detain them and question them, and we verify that we've got the wrong person, it is incumbent upon the officer to say, sir, ma'am, we've been able to verify you are not the person we are looking for; we are very sorry we inconvenienced you, we apologize, please understand.

And I think some of our officers do need to do a better job of that, and I think that's where a lot of the racial profiling accusations come in. BATTISTA: Let me -- I only have a minute left here. I wanted to ask Scott real quickly, I know you investigated this in several cities -- where does Cincinnati fit in the overall picture?

GREENWOOD: In the -- ACLU has done about 16 of these cases nationwide. The Cincinnati case is both more focused and I think it's broader based. It's more focused in that we have what we see is some very concrete problems and we have some ideas in how to address them. And it's broader based because we think there's been a lot longer range of behavior.

What we are doing that is exciting is, we are about this close to agreeing for a framework to mediate these issues community-wide with the plaintiffs, the ACLU, the Cincinnati Black United fund of the city of Cincinnati, and the fraternal of police. Hopefully, we can solve some of these problems.

BATTISTA: Well, we wish you both the best of luck. And we will keep on it for you. Officer Keith Fangman, thank you; Scott Greenwood, thank you both for joining us.

Up next: is racial profiling ever a tool of law enforcement? We'll ask our next two guests when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Some e-mails that have come in to us. Vincent in Virginia says: "As a 33 year-old black man, I have faced several confrontations with police officers. What I find is that, in general, most white officers are offended when a black male questions his authority."

We are now joined by Jim Fotis, a former police officers and the executive director of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America. Also with us is Linwood Bradford, president of the Washington, D.C. chapter of the National Black Police Association; he is a 20-year veteran of the Secret Service. Welcome to the both of you.

Jim, let me start with you; there are many police officers who feel that racial profiling is an integral part of investigating, that it's a tool that should be used in law enforcement; how do you defend that?

JIM FOTIS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE: Bobbie, what I think has happened perspective has been changed over the years from criminal profiling to racial profiling, and it's been used in the last few years with regard to several incidents that have happened to African- Americans or within the African-American community. But, it a very useful tool; it is a tool that has been around since the mid to late '60s, and if we didn't have criminal profiling, probably the person that was coming down to California from Canada during Y2K would have wound up blowing up several different places if we hadn't profiled it, knew this guy fit this profile, and got him off the street.

BATTISTA: I understand that, but at the same time, every single young black male in this audience that's had experiences with what they perceive to be as racial profiling, have been pulled over, and certainly don't fit the category of any sort of criminal suspect, other than the fact that they are black and maybe were in the wrong neighborhood. So, that is different from what you just talking about.

FOTIS: I have to say, as a police officer, and -- it was a white community; we had about six black families. If I was in that community and I had -- I had a male black walking around at 2:00 in the morning in an all-white area, I would have pulled him over as I would have done the same thing in the black community if I had a male white walking around. Sometimes we perceive things and put a tag on it as profiling, and it's not.

BATTISTA: Oh, the audience is upset about that. Basically, what you are saying is that black people can't have white friends and vice versa.

FOTIS: I'm saying that -- it's a way of protecting the community, and cops have to do their job; you have to be out there -- I went out and had a shootout with a black man, it was -- he was shot. After that, I was asked as a police officer, how do you feel now? Are you going to be prejudiced against blacks? I said, I didn't care what color he was. The fact of the matter is, he was shooting at me, and police officers don't have this job so they can go home dead, wounded or injured every day; they're there to protect themselves and protect the community.

BATTISTA: Let me get Officer Bradford in here. Is there a difference? I mean, conceptually, obviously, there is, between criminal profiling and racial profiling, but why does it seem that these two terms have become interchangeable?

OFC. LINWOOD BRADFORD, NATIONAL BLACK POLICE ASSOCIATION: Bobbie, I think the problem is that some people actually don't know the difference between criminal profiling and racial profiling. You know, as a black man myself who has experienced this problem on countless occasions, I can personally tell you that I know the difference.

When you are pulled out of your car constantly for no reason at all and you are followed around shopping malls or you're followed because you're walking in the wrong neighborhood at night, you know, it's very easy to see you know this is a problem that exists, and it's easy to paint it as profiling, racial profiling.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here quickly. I can't see your name tag. Go ahead.

BRIANNA: Brianna, well, the problem is racial targeting. When African-Americans are being pulled over in larger numbers than white Americans, of course, our statistics are going to show that we're committing more crimes. But we're being pulled over 10 times as much and white criminals are getting away with it because they're not being pulled over, they're not being searched or questioned the way we are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I also was going to say that my boyfriend has darker skin. He could pass for either Hispanic or black but he's white, and he drives an older Mercedes that has chrome wheels. Well, he's pulled over at least on a weekly basis, and they search his car.

Well, one night my car was in the shop and I was driving his, and the policeman pulled me over and he looked very disappointed to see me. He was like, well, I'm sorry ma'am, you can be going now. But I did not -- I didn't do anything. They were looking for him because driving by, he appears black or Hispanic, he doesn't look white. And so they target him on a weekly basis.

BATTISTA: Jim, every time we do this subject, there are stories like this from, I'd say, half the folks in our audience. So, this -- it's clearly a widespread problem.

FOTIS: Again, Bobbie, I think not only are African-Americans or black men or Hispanics pulled over a lot, so are whites. I saw one of your e-mails, long hair, drive an old car, that would be somebody pulled over quite a bit. I'm pulled over a lot, too. I drive a sports car. I get pulled over. It stands out. I'm sure other people in the audience have been pulled over.

It is not just specific to African-Americans, and it -- however, there are some police officers that are bad. They don't do the job well, but it's a very, very, small percentage and, again, let's not paint all the police in an American with a broad brush and say that we're all doing this, we're all profiling, and the people that are brought in to investigate the police that are doing racial profiling, the federal government, are the ones that taught the local police how to do it.

BATTISTA: No, I don't for one minute -- I don't want that impression to come from this show. I mean, you're absolutely right, the bulk of police officers are good men and they do good police work and that is not what we are meaning to do today.

But obviously, the problem of racial profiling, whether, you know, it's just being done by a select few on police fores around the country, it's effecting an awful lot of people. Barbara, in the audience, go ahead.

BARBARA: I just wanted to talk about what we were talking about earlier with the police officers pulling people over, maybe they have made a mistake to a young gentlemen that didn't do anything wrong; they thought that he did just because he was black or Hispanic or whatever, and then you made the comment then why shouldn't they just apologize...

BATTISTA: I mean, that's a simple gesture.

BARBARA: I agree, I think that it's good idea, but you have to think about who are we talking about. We're talking about police officers who do a great job. They do a tough job for very, very little money. So, someone who is willing to do that kind of job may have a personality that says, I'm not going to apologize. I was just doing my job.

FOTIS: Bobbie, I believe it's certainly very easy for a cop to apologize if we pull somebody over for the wrong reasons. I know in my department, which was a smaller department, we did it. I think that training certainly has a lot to do with it, and you need training on both sides. You need training of the police officers on how to deal with racial minorities, and you need training of the community on how to deal with police officers.

BATTISTA: I want to get Officer Bradford back in here. I've got to take a quick break and then we'll continue in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Officer Bradford, I'm just reading an editorial in "Time" magazine by Jack White, who said that he has had to teach his three sons survival tactics that are the mirror image of the racial profiling used by police, and he said in our version, every white cop is to be considered dangerous and treated accordingly. In cities like New York and Chicago, some blacks are so scared of cops that they hold classes to teach their kids how not to provoke them. Has it come to that?

BRADFORD: Well, basically Bobbie, in the National Black Police Association, we've, for the last probably 10 or 15 years, taught a class throughout the country on what to do when stopped by the police and unfortunately, it has come to that.

I, myself, am the father of two sons, 18 and 23 years old, who have both suffered from racial profiling, from being constantly stopped from walking up the street to walking in malls to driving my car. One of my sons was stopped and pulled out of car, a brand new car he was driving that was mine, and put face down on the ground with a gun to the back of his head.

And you know, these type of incidents lead to us to the times that we now live in, and long as these things continue to happen, we're going to continue to have situations like the things that are going on in Cincinnati with the unrest and the disturbances that are going on.

BATTISTA: What do you guys think is at the core of the solution? Should there be more blacks in the upper echelon? Should there be only black officers in black neighborhoods and white in white? Should there be classes in role reversal, you know, the walk a mile in my shoes kind of thing? How does feel to be a cop when you're in danger and how does it feel to be the person who's the wrong victim?

BRADFORD: You know, Bobbie, we've tried a lot of those things already. I mean, we have diversity training in the Secret Service as well as in most departments across the country now or where you practice role reversal, getting to respect and know the culture of your fellow peers and citizens. However, you know, it amounts to a little more than just playing games.

What we need is more and better trained management that's sensitive to the differences in the cultures. We need more involvement in the communities because after all, they are the people that we are sworn to protect and not become a part of the problem.

BATTISTA: Jim, what do you think?

FOTIS: I think one or all of things that you said could certainly help the situation, but I think what we have to do is regain a mutual respect for the law and the for the communities that we represent. One other things you did say that will not work, I don't believe it will work and there's been some studies, one was done by Amnesty International about putting all black officers into black communities or Hispanic officers into Hispanic communities. They tend to be much more intense on the population than do white officers.

I think that it's a difficult situation. But again, as Mr. Linwood said, I think if we all work together, get to know the people that we're working for, we're all going to be better off and we're finally going to succeed.

BATTISTA: All right, I've got to take another quick break here, and then I'll go to the audience and Vince on the phone from Cincinnati. Hang on, we'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right, let me take Vince on the phone in Cincinnati quickly. Go ahead, Vince.

VINCE: Hey, Bobbie. I believe the police does (sic) an excellent job in Cincinnati. I do believe on occasion they use excessive force. it's usually on the youth of Cincinnati, but race has no issue. It doesn't matter white, black, Mexican or Vietnamese. I do believe we live in a police state here in Cincinnati, and the slanted media is always looking for the race issue.

BATTISTA: All right, and up to the audience here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, earlier in the show I heard the term wrong neighborhood quite a few times, and I would just like for the officers to explain to me what is the wrong neighborhood so that I won't get caught in it. Please explain to me.

BATTISTA: Jim -- well.

BRADFORD: You know, there is no such thing as a wrong neighborhood. I think that's a comment that needs to be struck from the record. This is America. I don't think it's Johannesburg, so all neighborhoods should be relevant.

BATTISTA: Well, that's a good place to start, and we are completely out of time. Officer Bradford, thank you very much. Jim Fotis, thank you very much for joining us.

FOTIS: Thank you.

BRADFORD: Thank you.

BATTISTA: And we'll see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE. By the way, we'd like to remind you that first lady Laura Bush will be Larry King's guest tonight at 9:00 Eastern. Be sure to tune in, and we'll see you tomorrow.

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