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CNN Larry King Live
Marie Osmond Shares Her Story of Recovery
Aired May 01, 2001 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight: behind her public smile, she hid despair and a painful secret. And now, Marie Osmond is sharing an inspiring story of a road back from emotional darkness. She's with us for the hour, she's next on LARRY KING LIVE.
It's a great pleasure to welcome Marie Osmond to LARRY KING LIVE. She's been a frequent guest. She's the author of an extraordinary new book getting a great deal of attention, front pages on magazines. The book is titled "Behind the Smile." "Behind the Smile," not beyond the smile, but behind it.
MARIE OSMOND, ENTERTAINER: Yes.
KING: "My Journey out of Postpartum Depression." I might ask that in the interest of conflict of interest, I might tell you that my father-in-law, Carl Engleman, manages Marie Osmond, and she is not on because of that, she is on because she is Marie Osmond.
M. OSMOND: Well, you are married to my girlfriend.
KING: That is right, I'm married to your girlfriend, and he is a great manager for you, too. And you mentioned that in the book.
M. OSMOND: Well, you know, 20 -- over 20 years.
KING: Marie, you know, I have known you a long time, and I know a lot about you. And one of the things about you, anyone who knows you knows, is that you are a pretty private person. Why did you write this?
M. OSMOND: Yes, you know, Larry that is an interesting question. I don't think I ever intended to come out with a book on postpartum depression. I don't think I ever intended to make my ordeal public. What happened was is that we were in the midst of "Donny and Marie," starting up our second season of the talk show, and you know how it is -- you have to do lots of interviews and different things to promote it.
Well, I was getting ready to do a "TV Guide" interview, and I went into one of my bouts, and I had tried to disguise it up to that point, and I finally went into Carl, my manager, and I said: "Carl, I can't do this. I'm just going to fall apart."
And that is where I decided that coming forward with the truth was the best thing. I ended up talking to you on your show about it, Oprah. And I received so many, I mean, thousands and thousands of e- mails and letters came to me from people saying: "Thank you for giving it a name, thank you for helping me feel like I'm not different, or odd, or crazy, that this really is something physical." And it just kind of led to the book.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: So it was a catharsis for you?
M. OSMOND: Were there prices?
KING: No, it was a catharsis for you as well, it's a release for you, as well as helping other people.
M. OSMOND: I know that I'm even in a different place now than when I wrote the book. You know how they that say that if you let something go too long, you start to forget pain, and I think that is true. And so, it was really important for me to document and write this down, while still in it.
And, interestingly, a lot of the people who have sent me letters that have been really moving is: "Boy, you really described this, you know, depression." It took a year and a half to write this book, because it is difficult to describe, you know, what it feels like.
KING: Let's deal with first things first, and the thing that's getting the most attention is the headline grabber. I guess you knew that when you revealed it, and we will ask you why revealed it, but you were a victim of abuse as a child. You didn't you have to say that. Why?
M. OSMOND: Well, I believe in honesty. I think that that's the one thing I have learned the most from this situation, is to be true to the inner core of who you are. And one of the things that I found out is that I could not speak honestly, Larry, about postpartum depression because what I learned from my research and study and the things that I have found out is that I would say, huge, almost 90-some odd percent of the people who suffer from postpartum depression, have had some form of abuse in their life.
And I prayed about it. I actually gave Warner Books the first draft of the book. Up until a week before they went to publish it, I said: "I'm changing chapters 2 and 17, and this is what I'm going to put into it." And they went, "whoa!" So, the book was really written, and I decided at the last minute that I could not be honest without putting it in.
KING: You don't describe who did it, and you seem to imply that there were a few, right? There were a few instances with various people, or just one person?
M. OSMOND: You know, the details I would rather keep to the past. I'm over that. It was, you know, dealt with and done with. I think the most important thing is that the statement that, you know, I was definitely abused, and it was definitely sexual. And you know, those types of things to go through, you think you are over them, but it is the long-term effects of those types of things that you don't even see. You thinking gets skewed, and I think that is what happened to me, is that is my boundaries were lost.
KING: Let's ask this fairly, though. If the person or persons are still alive, shouldn't they be reported -- not for you, but as a danger to others?
M. OSMOND: Yes, I knew you would ask me that question, Larry. I believe that this situation have been death with, and that I feel very good about how everything is...
KING: So, no one is in danger?
M. OSMOND: Not to my knowledge.
KING: OK, because that would be very important to be walking around -- that would be -- drive you crazy.
M. OSMOND: Yes. And also, it happened, you know, it happened when I was too young to do anything about it. I was too young to understand, you know, but I was old enough to believe the threats.
KING: Why did you not tell anyone, and I mean anyone is that -- I don't think Carl knew, my wife didn't know, your best friends didn't -- I don't know -- did your husband know?
M. OSMOND: No.
KING: Why did you not tell anyone?
M. OSMOND: You know, why are people coming forward to me now? Good friends of mine, that are telling me that those types of things happened in their lives. I never knew. They have never disclosed it either. You have to remember, too, that, you know, I'm of a generation where those types of things weren't discussed very much.
KING: Yes, I know.
M. OSMOND: It was very, very quiet. And you know, those are the types of things that you don't want to do anything to hurt family, friends. You know, why should I disclose that to my parents and cause them pain? They couldn't do anything about it. It wouldn't have changed anything. And so, you live with it and you move on from it.
Nowadays, you know, my children are very aware, it's like you know, this is my body and you can't touch it. That is what they learn in school, and you know, when your 4-year-old says that to you -- oh, no, right now, your body is mine, now get in the bathtub! You know, I mean it is a different kind of a world, although I think that there are many forms of abuse going on right now that we are not even aware of, you know, over the Internet and other things.
KING: You bet. Let me get a break and come back with more. The book is "Behind the Smile: My Journey out of Postpartum Depression." The author is Marie Osmond. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DONNY & MARIE OSMOND SHOW")
DONNY OSMOND, ENTERTAINER: Thank you, thank you.
M. OSMOND: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
D. OSMOND: Thank you.
M. OSMOND: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We are back with Marie Osmond. We will talk about postpartum, the definition of postpartum and how you deal with depression, and how she fought out of it.
One other thing on the abuse era. Were you -- did you remember this, or did this come through a kind of analysis, where it was -- you came about it through remembering through suggestion?
M. OSMOND: No, I remember.
KING: You do remember, so it wasn't any kind of psychological -- because there's been a wide variety now of people who come forward with things that we later term not to be true because it was suggested by their doctor.
M. OSMOND: Right. No. This is -- this is real.
KING: Were you helped psychologically, psychiatrically through this?
M. OSMOND: Through both postpartum depression and dealing with my issues?
KING: Yes, all of it, all of it.
M. OSMOND: Yes, I was.
KING: Still being helped?
M. OSMOND: More internal now, but you know, I mean this has been almost a two-year process, Larry. And it is one of those things that -- sometimes, like, people who at home, women at home and people that may be watching or know of a loved one that may be going through it or something, sometimes it really is beneficial, I think. I mean, I'm not an authority or anything, but sometimes when you do step out of the realm of the people who are close to you, sometimes it is good to get a fresh perspective.
Sometimes it is nice to step way and away from you know -- but you, but this is what you are doing to me -- and that fresh perspective from counseling to help you go through those things, I think, can be very beneficial. It is just a matter of following your intuitive self and going to the people who you trust.
KING: What has been the reaction, Marie, of friends and family, now that they have learned this?
M. OSMOND: Well, I think the most important thing is that I really don't want -- this is why I wasn't, you know, too keen on revealing certain things because I don't want this book to be about sexual abuse. That is not what it is about. What it is about is postpartum depression, which they say 20 percent of the women have it, I think it is way higher, Larry.
I think it is something that has brought shame, and guilt. This is one of the factors of it. It makes you feel helpless. It makes you feel like you don't even belong in your own life. You weep, you cry, you have no joy. I mean it is the most devastating thing that I have ever been through. I'm a pretty tough woman, Larry. You know me, and, I literally could find nothing that resembled my life.
I mean, you know, I'm one of the founders one of the largest children's charities right now, you know, of its kind in the world. You know, I design dolls, I perform, and have done television, and recording all these different -- none of that made any sense to me. That is the devastating effect of depression, is that it makes no sense. We have so many people in this country on anti depressants. To me it's almost like a plague.
KING: Number one drug in America is an antidepressant. Now I want to delve into it. I'm going right through this other part of the abuse thing because it was the thing that kind of triggered it. Certainly something happened in your past.
M. OSMOND: No, it was one of the factors, Larry.
KING: What I'm interesting in, is how well now, with the knowledge, have your friends, parents, brothers, others, treated you? How have they reacted to learning this?
M. OSMOND: I think that they think I'm a strong person. I think they are very sorrowful. You know, the reactions I have had from my family is just, you know, deep regret and sorrow, and not understanding quite why I didn't go to them.
But, you know, understanding that that was the choice I made at the time, and the threats and things, I believed.
KING: Define the word "postpartum." What is that?
M. OSMOND: Postpartum -- how do you define it -- it's what happens to the body, and like I said, Larry, I'm, you know, I'm no expert, but what happens to women when you carry a child in your second trimester, progesterone, which is what in a woman is her natural antidepressant, it goes 50 times higher. Your body produces so much, which kind of gives you this euphoric feeling and probably helps you carry around that extra weight and water and everything else, and helps the baby. It goes to 50 percent higher when you deliver a baby. That progesterone drops to normal levels, or a little bit lower, and within a two, three-week period come back to normal levels. My progesterone dropped to zero. And I lived with it for four, 4 1/2 months, almost five months at zero, which it makes you crazy.
KING: So it only deals with a man couldn't get postpartum only deals with -- following pregnancy?
M. OSMOND: Donny is a little moody, you know, he could have had postpartum. (laughter)
KING: No, there are men who get depression after surgery sometimes and then it goes away, but that's not postpartum, is it?
M. OSMOND: You know, I'm not a doctor. I can't define it. I do know that people go through depression. If you want to say that this is, if depression is lumped into a bag, I'm sure that the feelings are similar. And you know, one of the interesting things that I have found, it almost makes me emotional, is women "I can do it. I'm fine. I'm good. I'm strong. You know, I'm doing great. No problem."
And they deny the core feeling inside of them and I really believe that there are men out there, they know their wife isn't fine. They know that she is struggling, and when she pushes them away they feel hurt. And so they go away and she feels hurt it develops this whole thing, whereas I really believe if we could just speak honestly about it, and I really believe it does cause a form of depression in men.
What's interesting is this article that came out in "Good Housekeeping" because the book is relatively new, I went to see my doctor yesterday, Judith Moore, who helped put back pages in the book that are just phenomenally, very insightful. And she said she has been inundated from calls all across United States, from people, and she said, "Do you know what's interesting, Marie?" She said, "The majority of the calls are from husbands."
KING: Let me break right there. We'll come right back with Marie Osmond. She's our guest for the full hour. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DONNY AND MARIE OSMOND SHOW")
M. OSMOND: Good evening everyone and welcome to our second season.
D. OSMOND: We are starting our sophomore year on TV. It's a whole new season, a brand new set of rules. This year there isn't going to be any more squabbling, no more bickering, no more fighting. .
M. OSMOND: Well, there goes our show.
D. OSMOND: No, I'm serious, Marie, very serious. I have had all summer to think things over and I want to say publicly that my sister deserves credit for my success. Her steady doubt and ridicule have given me the incentive to go on -- really.
M. OSMOND: Here we go again, folks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We are back. The book is "Behind The Smile." What, Marie, was the first sign you had -- the first time you had this feeling -- what was it like? How can you describe it?
M. OSMOND: I should have followed my intuition. I'm hard on myself. You know, after the third day I knew that this was more than baby blues.
KING: What were you feeling? What -- can you describe the feeling?
M. OSMOND: Well, you don't feel like yourself. You feel like incredibly fatigued, incredibly emotional. It is back-and-forth, and back-and-forth, and you swing so fast, from moods. It's like riding a roller coaster. You don't know which way you are going to go next. And mostly just this incredible shame and despair and beating yourself up.
KING: Over?
M. OSMOND: This is supposed to be the most happy time your life. This is what the world tells you, and you're dying inside. You know, this is the thing that is so difficult about having postpartum depression.
KING: How many birth children have you had?
M. OSMOND: I would rather not say, because there are all mine.
KING: No, I'm asking only because...
M. OSMOND: I have had enough.
KING: When did you have your first experience with postpartum depression? Was it with the first baby?
M. OSMOND: Well see, that is -- I believe, as I look back, Larry, that I have had postpartum depression with all of my children.
KING: There was a reason. Even the adopted ones?
M. OSMOND: Yes.
KING: Really?
M. OSMOND: I do. And I describe some of that in the book. And I explain, for example when my one child was burnt, he was a year old and I had just adopted my next daughter. It was terrible. It was a horrifying. I went to bed and I just sat there. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't move. And yet I did. You know, it's really -- I don't know how I got through it, Larry. I don't know how women get through it. I don't think my story is unique. I think there are so many women out there that hurt. It's terrible.
KING: Did you think that -- did you ever think about doing away with yourself?
M. OSMOND: You know, when I drove up the coast, and I talk about that, too...
KING: Maybe you should tell that. You left for one day. You just took off, right?
M. OSMOND: Right. And I think that there have been tabloid versions of the story. I mean, I used to get out at 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning and just walk my neighborhood in my pajamas because I would shake so bad.
And I -- I would have what they call postpartum panic attacks, where, literally -- I don't know how people couldn't see that, I was shaking so bad internally. But, I just learned to do things.
KING: Live with it.
M. OSMOND: I mean, I've worked since I was 3.
KING: I asked about harming yourself. Did you think, during that drive, about harming yourself? Did it get to that point?
M. OSMOND: Yes, absolutely, you think of things like that. You think about: Good grief, I'm worthless. I'm a bad mother.
You beat yourself up terribly. And the thing is, is that I would never do that, Larry. I could never, because I have seen children left over from situations where people have taken their life, and there's nobody there to hug them. There is nobody -- I would never do that.
KING: OK. But you also try to cover it by being upbeat, right? You're a show business person. Show business, laugh, clown, laugh. Smile, and when you go onstage, nothing hurts. You've got to be that...
M. OSMOND: Lemons, making lemonade.
KING: That's right. Did you do that in life?
M. OSMOND: Of course.
KING: All right. If you were able to fake it, why -- the question -- why couldn't you do it a lot? In other words, if you could overcome it onstage, couldn't you overcome it offstage?
M. OSMOND: No kidding. No kidding. I mean, I wore myself out trying to put on the smile. I would go home and fall apart. I would sob on my way home from work every day. KING: Really?
M. OSMOND: It was terrible.
KING: After doing that wonderful show you did with Donny? It's got an Emmy nomination.
M. OSMOND: Thank you.
KING: In other words, you finished that show bubbling, laughing, jumping into the audience, hopping around, and go home crying?
M. OSMOND: Absolutely. You know, it was really difficult, because I had to re-create the Marie Osmond that I thought -- that I believed I was. I'm a different person, Larry. I'm not the same anymore.
KING: I want to find out how you did it in a moment. We'll be right back with Marie Osmond. This book is now everywhere, "Behind the Smile." Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. OSMOND (singing): You are my sunshine, my only sunshine, you are my sunshine, my only sunshine, you are the sunshine of my life, oh yeah...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. OSMOND: I'd like to be a showgirl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, really?
M. OSMOND: Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: In the book, "Behind the Smile," Marie Osmond writes, "When I look back, I see myself as a little girl who had no time to be just a child. Though my parents put a great deal of effort into making sure our lives were as normal as possible, the fact remains our lives differed from those of most every other child, because we went to work almost every day."
Looking back, are you sorry you had that? Do you think you were -- not deliberately, but you were kind of exploited?
M. OSMOND: I'm not sorry for my life. My parents, bless their hearts, their first two children were born deaf. Their next four children have perfect pitch.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OSMOND: You know, it was kind of one of those things, that it was a machine that rolled forth and there was nothing they could do to stop it. They helped us develop our talents.
KING: But there were burdens to growing up as an entertainer.
M. OSMOND: Absolutely. And you know what -- this is the thing. I'm not going to sit here and -- I hate complaining celebrities. Our lives are great. My life has been wonderful. The fact is, is yeah, I grew up really fast.
I mean, good grief, I was working at 3. You know, when I was told -- can I go out and play? No, I was I was working. I was recording. I was learning Swedish. I was learning...
KING: So you had to think about how you looked. And -- right, you were accumulating years of thoughts, habits, choices, that had long-term effects on your sense of well-being. You had to always be trim. You had to always look right. That smile had to be perpetual, right? That's a lot of pressure on a kid.
M. OSMOND: Got to wear braces.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: That's a lot of pressure on a kid, isn't it?
M. OSMOND: It is. Yes, it was a lot of pressure.
KING: Because I've interviewed in the past, child stars, who regret that they were child stars.
M. OSMOND: I don't regret anything, Larry. Sincerely, I look at this experience I had with postpartum depression, and if you look at everything bad that happens to you, and you look at it and you say: God, what do you want me to learn from this?
It's amazing what -- the growth in your life doesn't come from the good things. It comes from the bad things, if you try to look at it that way. You know, I had to look at my life and see where those habits of child -- they were distorted. I was so desirous to please everyone that I did nothing for myself. That -- and I'm not talking selfishness. That's not what I'm saying. I believe selfishness comes when you eventually are not hurt, and not hurt, and not hurt, and finally you scream and say: Listen to me!
What I'm talking about is self love. Even in the Commandments, it says to love thy neighbor as thyself, not to love thy neighbor more than thyself. And I think that's what happened. I just -- I beat myself up so bad inside, and I think that's what a lot of women do.
It's interesting, because even 50 years ago, the role of women was defined. Right or wrong, it was still defined. This is what you do, this is your house, you know, these are your June Cleaver pearls -- you knew the box that you sat in.
And nowadays, that's not the case for women. You know, over 60 percent of mothers work. Thirty percent of those, I believe is the statistic, they carry management positions. Stress is a huge factor in postpartum depression. Our roles are not defined, and I think that we try to be everything for everybody. And what I'm saying is: You know what? I'm really proud that I'm a woman.
And I'm looking more internal now to the femininity inside and saying, I want to say no. I want to say no for a change.
KING: Why do you think that your strong faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn't do it for you.
M. OSMOND: Oh, it did. Are you kidding? Larry, I wouldn't be here.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OSMOND: Larry, let me just say I wouldn't be here if it weren't for my beliefs. But I do believe that lots of times -- I'm Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ. I always believed in what he did, but I never believed he did it for me until recently. And now...
KING: Really?
M. OSMOND: Well, I think it's -- you know, you believe in him, but now I believe that he did it for me.
KING: We'll take a break and come back with Marie Osmond. And we'll find out how she came up out of depression -- out of postpartum depression, the subject of the book "Behind the Smile." There is a glossary at the end of this book that I'm going to ask her about as well. We'll be right back. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROUP (singing): Come make your home in my...
Come make your home in my...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We are back with Marie Osmond, author of "Behind The Smile." During this period of time, you separated from your husband, subsequently went back to him. Was that part of the depression, do you think, that separation?
M. OSMOND: I don't think it was the cause of it. I believe it might have been one of the factors of it; yes, absolutely.
KING: What effect did it have on you?
M. OSMOND: The separation?
KING: Yeah. Did it have an effect at all you on, mentally? Did it cause you reverse...
M. OSMOND: Absolutely, you know, I think it was a period of time, where I really needed to know my boundaries, where I really needed to see things clearly. Separation, I think, needs to be productive, not just separate. And we really worked out.
I will say this, Larry, that I know my husband loves me more than he ever has, and I know that I love him and we made it through really difficult time. The details I believe should be kept private. But I'm glad we made it through, because there is great things on the other side.
KING: So, are you saying in a sense the separation turned out to be a good thing?
M. OSMOND: It did for me.
KING: All right, at what point do you finally realize, I need help?
M. OSMOND: That is that is the scariest thing and I think that is one of the things that -- I really tried to do by talking about my particular story is maybe it will cause some table conversation. You know, maybe it will cause you know, husbands to talk to their wives, daughters to talk to their mothers, and say, what? What did you go through?
For fathers to teach their sons to be compassionate and to look for things and how they can help. The biggest problem is that these people, these women that go through this -- they cannot ask for help, you can't even pick up the phone and make a doctor appointment; I betrayed myself to my own doctor, I couldn't tell him what I was going through.
KING: What did you finally do? How did you finally make that leap?
M. OSMOND: Well, maybe, it is just my stubbornness.
KING: Did you finally -- what did you -- what act did you finally take?
M. OSMOND: I -- well, it describes what finally got me in the book. That is, I finally went to a female doctor, who I had been to previous for a bout of mono, and she really did some amazing things.
KING: Not a psychiatrist?
M. OSMOND: What's that?
KING: She was not a psychiatrist?
M. OSMOND: No, she is a doctor.
KING: A regular doctor?
M. OSMOND: Judith Moore -- but she is very holistic and natural and a medical doctor and everything. I mean, one of the things she is really believing in it and it talks about in the book is that, here is wellness, and here is acute illness, and she really believes there is a lot of treatments that can be done in between, and, you know, she looked at things like cortisol, which you know -- if you eat a low-fat diet that -- fat is a -- essential for hormones in women, and cortisol comes from progesterone and progesterone comes from cholesterol.
I mean, I was eating a no cholesterol diet, trying to get skinny for the show, I was causing my problem making it worse. And so, you know, she added fish oils and different things in my diet; immediately, I'm telling you in three and four days, I felt better.
But that -- see, the thing is that with postpartum, you can get the hormones under control, but all the stuff has bubbled up from underneath, and that is why I think you need to go -- you can always take an antidepressant, and you can bury the issue and you can go through, two three years of difficulty and go right back to where were.
But my story is, you know what? There is something even greater on the other side if you'll dig down deep inside of your soul, and say what caused it in the first place and try to resolve things.
KING: You did not use antidepressants?
M. OSMOND: Yes, I did.
KING: You did, but no longer do them, or still have to?
M. OSMOND: I don't, I don't need them.
KING: But you don't discount them; they are wonder drugs.
M. OSMOND: This is the thing is I do believe that there are people that absolutely need them; they don't create certain hormones or whatever it is. I know from me that when I was going through really serious counseling with my counselor, I'm so grateful I was on them because I don't think I could have gone through pain.
KING: So, let me get this straight. You had a counselor, and an MD.
M. OSMOND: Yes.
KING: Were they both female?
M. OSMOND: Yes. KING: OK, was that important?
M. OSMOND: Sorry, I have a comfort level with women.
KING: I mean, do you think -- just be honest -- a woman would understand this more.
M. OSMOND: I believe she understood more because she had gone through it.
KING: Ah. M. OSMOND: Now, that is just my personal opinion, and you have to realize, I grew around a lot of brothers. That is not to say that men are not compassionate; that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying for me, at that time in my I life, where I was, I knew that she knew alternative ways that she did tests on three kinds of estrogens that she did all kinds of things that she literally sat down with me and showed me my chart. And said, you know what, this is why you are not feeling good; she wept with me and she cried with me, And hugged me, and that was really healing for me.
KING: You are saying, this was largely chemical.
M. OSMOND: It was both.
KING: All right.
M. OSMOND: Postpartum depression is both.
KING: You changed the chemical aspects. You changed your diet, you changed your eating habits. Now, what changed outlook? How did they work -- what worked mentally for you?
M. OSMOND: Well, I believed that I could just bury -- keep burying my issues, and I would probably, you know, arise and keep moving forward, but what I realized is that there was something deeply wrong inside. I was a workaholic. I really believed that -- I missed things with my first four children, Larry, that I won't miss with my last three.
You know, just, right before I came here, my little girl, I mean, we have the Up Chuck Trio at home. They are all sick; they're all throwing up. And, my little girl kept saying mommy, I need a hug. Mommy, I need a hug. And this mommy wants to be there for that hug.
KING: We'll be right back...
M. OSMOND: And...
KING: Let me get a break and we will pick right up.
M. OSMOND: OK.
KING: Don't lose your thought. The book is "Behind The Smile: My Journey Out Of Postpartum Depression." The guest is Marie Osmond. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We are back with Marie Osmond. I'm sorry, what were you going to say?
M. OSMOND: No, I was just saying, I was relating to you, I know Shawn, your wife very well, and she just sent Danny on a mission, .
KING: Her son. M. OSMOND: Yeah, and, my son, Steven, is 18 and he told me a month ago that he is going on a mission for our church.
KING: That means you don't see him for two years.
M. OSMOND: And that means I have one more year with him at home. And I don't want to miss that, Larry. It is, you know, too important to me.
KING: So you are not going to work?
M. OSMOND: You know, I mean, I'm doing a few things here and there. You know, I have just turn down four Broadway shows and different things like that. That doesn't mean I don't love what I do. I really, really do.
KING: For a workaholic, though, let's be honest, you had some great offers.
M. OSMOND: Yeah.
KING: "Annie Get Your Gun," touring company, I think -- of what they want to tour you in? -- "King And I" in London?
M. OSMOND: Yes.
KING: A lot of great shows.
M. OSMOND: A lot.
KING: All right. Wasn't that hard, because there is that side of you that wants to perform? Has to be.
M. OSMOND: Sure.
KING: So you must miss that? You must miss the stage.
M. OSMOND: I do miss the stage. But when I could be getting, you know, a standing ovation or, you know, taking applause or whatever -- it doesn't make up for hands around your neck. I will never -- I won't get those years back.
KING: You write about overcoming fear.
M. OSMOND: Larry, will you stop this questioning? [
(LAUGHTER).
KING: I hate to break this to you, but one of the concepts of a talk show, and you are nominated for an Emmy for daytime talk show is it requires questions, because if we stop asking questions...
M. OSMOND: Oh, Larry, shut up and just ask the next question!
KING: It's like Laura Bush, I finished talking with Laura Bush, and she says: "You know, this is lot of yadda-da, yadda-da, yadda-da." I say: "Yes, that is the purpose!" OK. You write about overcoming fear as a dominant motion in your life. What were you afraid of?
M. OSMOND: This show.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OSMOND: You know, I -- I believe that is why I had to mention issues like sexual abuse. I believe they jar your thinking process. I think that you become incredibly lost as far as boundaries, it is like having a bubble around you, and when somebody pops that and breaks it, it's like you don't know how to say no.
And so, you have to really re-learn things. It's almost like those habits, those -- basic conversation skills of saying, you know, I can't do this tonight or whatever, you lose those. And I don't know that they will ever be natural for me, but I'm learning to say: "You know what, I really want to do this, but this means more to me." And I'm learning to say no and picking priorities and goals.
It is like, you know, Lisa who helps me with my dolls. This is my 10-year anniversary, and we have some great shows coming up, but I talked to her, you know, she is raising her children, she is an awesome mother. And she -- last year, she says: "I really want to be home with my children more." I said: "Then go home at 3:30 every day."
I think that we really need to look at what's happening with women and we really need to take a look and say: "You know what, you can be just as productive at home." Women can accomplish massive things. Patti, your personal assistant, she works from her house and does tons of things for you. Women when they're happy, boy, they can conquer the world.
KING: But your profession takes out of the house.
M. OSMOND: It does.
KING: Do you think that...
M. OSMOND: Unless I take over your show, Larry.
KING: Yes, but -- is that what you want to do? You just move in. You and -- it's always been a plot, the whole thing!
M. OSMOND: Welcome to "Marie Osmond Live!"
KING: She is not here tonight, one of her children has a cold.
M. OSMOND: That is right. Welcome to my house.
KING: In a sense, as you mentioned, the separation made the marriage better. In a sense, the depression has made you a better person.
M. OSMOND: It really has. But you know what, it doesn't make you better if you deny it, if you bury it, and if you don't want to deal with the past. It is really scary to open up those doors because you say, wait a minute, when I evolve from this, am I going to be the same person? Am I going to, you know, invalidate everything that has happened in my past? Who am I? Will I have a sense of humor again?
Nothing changes, Larry, in the core of you, but you come out better, I swear you do, and you can't -- you know, if anything -- don't be afraid, don't just take a pill and get numb. Take a pill, and go through the pain and the process, and say what am I doing that is making me so unhappy?
There is -- there was a little girl inside of me, Larry, that was never a child. And inside, I kept telling her to be quiet, don't do anything, listen, become what they need you to be, make people happy. And inside, she was sobbing.
KING: Good advice.
M. OSMOND: And I'm saying, you know what, I'm going to listen to her, and I'm going to take care of her, and I'm going to do some things that she wants to do.
KING: More with Marie Osmond. We will talk about some valuable information in -- at the end of this book as well. The book is called "Behind the Smile," it's a guaranteed bestseller. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DONNY AND MARIE OSMOND SHOW")
M. OSMOND (singing): Nobody gets too much heaven, no more, it is much harder to come by than (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Nobody gets too much love anymore, it's as high as the mountain, and harder to climb.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DONNY AND MARIE OSMOND SHOW")
UNIDENTIFIED DUET (singing): You can't be too rich or too thin, you are never too posh or too old to tour, get all the goodies and that is for sure, if you are a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you wind up on the ground door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Marie Osmond, do you think your goody-goody image, your America's sweetheart, the woman with the perpetual smile, hurt you in a sense? It kind of made you -- tabloids jumped over this, because anything going bad in your life was fodder for them?
M. OSMOND: Oh, I think that there will be people who spin this tabloid, but Larry, just already, the thousands and thousands of e- mails and letters I have gotten, from just that article in "Good Housekeeping," my heart is so full of gratitude that I could do something to help women not feel weird.
KING: Do you think you were hurt by the fact that your image was such of you know -- wholesome goodness, that when something bad happens to you, they are going to jump on it?
M. OSMOND: Oh, I'm sure. You know, isn't that a sad commentary on our society?
KING: True, though.
M. OSMOND: ... that the way we feel better about ourselves is to find terrible things out about somebody else? That is really sad. Instead of trying to nurture and help each other -- you know, it is interesting, because I talk about women -- one of the things I talked to my mother-in-law who went through depression, she said, you know, when she got her first washing machine, that she called up her mother and said: "Come see my machine!"
And her mother said: "What are you doing that for? Now you are going to wash laundry more, you're going to isolate yourself in your house, you're not going to go and say, hey, you know what, I will watch your kids while you go do your laundry, and then you watch mine."
It is like cheap therapy. Women used to sit around and have sympathy, and now we compete with each other, and it is wrong to compete with each other. It really is time for women to come together, and say: "You know what, I understand what you're going through. And my life isn't perfect, and yours isn't perfect." And I think that's what needs to happen, not the tabloid approach of oh, look, we have got problems. Hey, we all have problems!
And I guarantee you, every woman watching there is saying, I have got problems, too. It doesn't matter who you are. God has no respect for persons, you know. We are all going to go through things.
KING: Now, the back of this book has a glossary. What is all that? It's fascinating to look at that. You give a myriad of information.
M. OSMOND: There is a lot -- there is so much great information. Dr. Judith Moore. I said, Judith -- she is inundated, people are calling, I don't care what it costs, I want to get my wife in. And she said, it doesn't work that way.
But she said: "You know what, until you can find a doctor, these are the types of things that you can ask your doctor specifically to check for."
KING: And you list them all on the back.
M. OSMOND: Yes, and you know what? If you don't know a doctor, you can pick up the Internet. There are so many ways. You know, she has a great Web site. I will give you that you information, you can put it up. But it's just fabulous information. Just go to the book, that is the thing I would suggest right now.
KING: But it is all in the book, right? The Web site is in the book, everything is in the book. M. OSMOND: Everything is in there, and extra reading, lots of things to look at, a check list to see if you even have postpartum. I had almost every one on that check list.
KING: Would you want your children to go into show business?
M. OSMOND: If they wanted to. My 18-year-old wants to.
KING: He does. He sings, right?
M. OSMOND: Absolutely. He is great.
KING: So that -- you don't blame the business for any of this?
M. OSMOND: I don't blame anything for -- blaming is a waste of life. It really is.
KING: So there is no -- you don't take anger out at anyone else or, "Boy, if my father were different this would have been different," or "If this didn't happen to me as a kid I would have been different." You are telling a story, you're not blaming.
M. OSMOND: You know, I don't want this book to come off whiney or complainy. That is not intent of it. It is to help people think deep within themselves and analyze some things hopefully, you know. My parents are great people. I can't blame them for anything. How can they know if you don't talk and communicate. And hopefully we can teach our children, and be the kind of people that don't say, "These are the rules and these are the laws and this is how you have to do."
You know, hopefully, we can sit, and learn to say, "You know what, how do you feel? Tell me more. What's going on?" My mother is the greatest woman in the world. My father is the most amazing man. I wouldn't be here, Larry, if it weren't for them.
KING: We'll be back with remaining moments with Marie Osmond. And we will talk about what next. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DONNY AND MARIE OSMOND SHOW")
D. OSMOND: Well, this guy walks into the psychiatrist office, you know, and he says, "Doc, I just had a terrible, terrible nightmare last night. You've got to help me. I dreamt I swallowed a giant marshmallow." The psychiatrist said, "What's wrong with that?" He said, "When I woke up..."
M. OSMOND: ... my I pillow was gone.
D. OSMOND: You heard it.
M. OSMOND: Hey, man when I was in third grade.
D. OSMOND: You don't think I'm funny?
M. OSMOND: Oh, sure I do, Donny.
D. OSMOND: Thank you.
M. OSMOND: But looks are not everything. (LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: OK, give me a picture. Marie Osmond in a couple of years. What are you going to be doing?
M. OSMOND: In a couple of years?
KING: Yeah, three, four years.
M. OSMOND: You know, I'm not sure. I have a lot of offers on the table. I'll tell you what I do love. I love women. I am all about truth and honesty lately. I just -- your life is too short. Honesty is great.
KING: You mean you're going to go around and lecture, maybe.
M. OSMOND: Well, I have been asked to. It's kind of interesting. I doing like, I like the idea of listening and talking. That might be something. You know what? This is my philosophy. I have never known a man on his deathbed to say, "Wow, I wish I would have spent more time at my work." And I don't want to be that kind of grandma. You know, I want to be a part my kids' lives. I want them to want to come home be with me.
KING: You are not retiring are you? I mean, it sounds ominous. Like, are you...
M. OSMOND: No. No, Larry, good grief. You know, Children Miracle Network, we just raised $2.1 billion. I mean that's where we are for children's hospitals. I love my work to help kids. You know, I'm sure I will do other things. I have -- good grief -- I have, what, 39 years of working in this business. You know, I love what I do. I can't deny myself either.
But, you know, I think there is nothing wrong with taking a year and saying, you know what, I want to do this for a change. I'm going back to school right now. Is that wild?
KING: If the people want to bring the talk show back with you and Donny, would you come back?
M. OSMOND: Boy, I don't know. I don't know.
KING: How about you doing show on women's issues? Would you do a show by yourself? Or host a show dealing with women's issues.
M. OSMOND: I don't need Donny.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: No, would you come to where you could be with the kids and host a daily television show?
M. OSMOND: Yes, it would depend on the hours. Like I said, I think, I think that if we look at healing women. We have healed our homes, and I think that is where we need to start looking, is inside of women's hearts. I believe that, Larry. I think that husbands would come home to happy wives, and wives would love being with their children. I really believe that women is the core factor in our society. We need to take care of them.
KING: Thank you, Marie. And by the way, when you see someone singing on television, or a new artist coming along you don't sit there and say, "Oh, I wish which up on that stage?"
M. OSMOND: No.
KING: You don't.
M. OSMOND: I'm excited for them. Yes, sure I miss certain parts of it. That doesn't mean I'm never going to do it again. When I turned down London my kids wanted to kill me, but my son is in his senior year, and I can't move him to London senior year. You know, that is impossible. And, so, I want to be with him. You know, I love him coming over and bringing his friends, and talking until 3:00 in morning and laughing. Those are things that I love. I didn't have children to not spend time and get to know them.
KING: How did you like co-hosting an inaugural ball?
M. OSMOND: It was fun. Meatloaf was great. We had a great time.
KING: Marie, thank you very much. Good luck with the book. Good luck with everything.
M. OSMOND: Thank you, Larry.
KING: Marie Osmond: entertainer businesswoman. She's come through it. She's seen it all. And she's the author of new book "Behind The Smile: My Journey Out of Postpartum Depression."
We've got a great rest of the week ahead. Tomorrow night: Stedman Graham is with us. You may know him as the boyfriend of Oprah Winfrey, but what a career he's got on his own. He has written an extraordinary new book about how you can help yourself.
On Thursday night the No. 1 radio talk show host in America: Rush Limbaugh is the special guest. We thank Marie Osmond for joining us. We invite you to say tuned for "CNN TONIGHT." I'm Larry King. Good night.
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