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CNN Talkback Live

Why Did One School Decide to Stop Observing Mother's Day?

Aired May 09, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: This is a Mother's Day-free zone. It's the Rodeph Sholom Day School, a Jewish private school on Manhattan's Upper West Side. And to be fair, Father's Day isn't acknowledged either.

The administration says these family celebrations serve no educational purpose, and suggest they might make children who come from less traditional homes feel bad. This woman agrees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a holiday that's basically a hallmark holiday, this is not a national holiday, this has nothing to do with history. We don't need to recognize this in school, and make some children feel uncomfortable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Critics charge it's political correctness run amok, but supporters say it is just compassionate. What do you say?

They are not even my children. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

What's a mother worth? Not much, at least in the economic sense, according to an economist that we'll be talking with just a little bit later on in this show. But before we get to that, let's talk about why kids at one school in New York won't be making Mother's Day cards this year.

Our guests today are Steve Malzberg, a radio talk show host on WABC in New York. He's written a column on this topic for newsmax.com.

And Jeff Sheehy, founder of Equal Benefits Advocates in San Francisco. The organization fights for equal rights for lesbians and gays.

Welcome to both of you.

MALZBERG & SHEEHY: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Steve, let me start with you, because some news reports say that this issue was generated by a gay parent at the school; the school says they did it for a variety of reasons. Obviously, they don't want to hurt any feelings at the school, so, what is wrong with that?

STEVE MALZBERG, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, by banning Mother's Day, the thing is ridiculous. Let's work on the premise that they don't want to make kids feel uncomfortable, because maybe they have two mommies or two daddies.

What about the kids all through the years who have had a father or not had a mother, because they passed away or they were divorced? I mean, it is up to the parent that's left to tell these kids, hey, don't worry, make one for grandma, make one for your aunt. On Father's Day, make one for your grampa.

Now, if in fact it is true as Andrea Peyser in "The New York Post" reported, that it was a gay parent who adopted a boy with his gay lover, who went to the administration and convinced them to take Mother's Day and Father's Day off the school holiday calendar, well, I mean, it is not doing those kids any good.

First of all, shouldn't these kids be proud, shouldn't the parents be proud that they're two fathers, and they adopted this child? Shouldn't they be explaining to this child, you have two daddies, so don't worry? You will have two cards on Father's Day?

On Mother's Day, you could write one for your grandmother or your aunt, or some female figure in their lives. What do these fathers think they are doing, shielding these kids from the fact they don't have a mother?

BATTISTA: Jeff, is this just a gay issue run amok?

JEFF SHEEHY, EQUAL BENEFITS ADVOCATES: It is not a gay issue at all. Gay people fully support Mother's Day, fully support Father's Day. This is really an issue about a school that is a religious school, by the way, deciding that they are going to not participate in this holiday.

Remember, for the small kids, they are still doing it. For the under four year-olds, they are doing a Mother's Day, Father's Day thing. So, gay people love their moms, gay people love their dads; it is not a gay issue. And it is people like Steve who are using this to bash us, if it was a religious school, a fundamentalist, Christian fundamentalist school, they had a policy in a place that was offensive to gays, and gays were criticizing that, they'd be talking about freedom of religion, and...

MALZBERG: First of all...

BATTISTA: Let -- let me jump in here and read a statement from the school, so we can kind of assess where they are coming from on this. Robert Levine, who's a senior rabbi of Congregation Rodeph Sholom released the following statement:

"Rodeph Sholom School's decision not to focus on the observance of Mother's Day was based on several carefully considered factors. Most importantly, Mother's Day evokes great love and pride, but in my judgment, children who, for whatever reason have no mother, should not have to sit in class while cards are being made for the mothers of others. We assure you that the commandment to honor parents is taught faithfully at Rodeph Sholom. But, so is the commandment to your neighbor as yourself. In our community, protecting the emotional health and feelings of our children always will be of paramount concern."

MALZBERG: That's ridiculous. Again, they didn't...

SHEEHY: Why is that ridiculous?

MALZBERG: Excuse me, first of all. Excuse me.

SHEEHY: Don't scream at me.

MALZBERG: First of all, you said I bash gays. If you could give me an...

SHEEHY: This is not a gay issue.

MALZBERG: If you think -- excuse me?

SHEEHY: This is not an issue about gays.

MALZBERG: Excuse me, you said I'm using this to bash gays. I would like to know how I'm bashing gays.

SHEEHY: Because you are trying to suggest that gay people do not love -- there's no more...

MALZBERG: No, I'm not trying to suggest that at all, sir. No.

(CROSSTALK)

SHEEHY: ...gay men who love their mothers, I mean, come on...

(CROSSTALK)

MALZBERG: Andrea Pfizer wrote that it was a gay man who convinced the administration, I'm not bringing that up. I'm bringing up what has been written.

BATTISTA: In a previous statement, the school also said, that they didn't feel that the recognition of Mother's Day had any real educational value in their curriculum. It is a holiday celebrated on Sunday. I mean, is there reason why it has to be in the schools, Steve?

MALZBERG: You know what? The people who don't want it in the schools, and I'm sure your guest, would be all in favor of teaching this "gay agenda" in the schools, teaching about homosexuality, teaching about some kids have two mommies, some have two daddies; that's acceptable in the schools. What is wrong with Mother's Day, for crying out loud? SHEEHY: I think teaching tolerance is important, but that's not the issue here. What we are talking about is the right of a school on the Upper East Side in New York, which I think -- they pay $15,000 a year...

MALZBERG: First of all, it's Upper West Side.

SHEEHY: Excuse me. You know, forgive me.

MALZBERG: Another fact you have wrong, but that's OK.

BATTISTA: It is a private school.

SHEEHY: You are such a nice guy.

MALZBERG: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Are you worried about it spreading to public schools?

SHEEHY: Bob Jones University does whatever it wants...

MALZBERG: Yes, I am worried...

SHEEHY: ...you get to us, if we think Bob Jones University is racist, it may not bother you, but -- you have a double standard here: this is what I find offensive.

MALZBERG: You don't know anything about me! What have I said about Bob Jones University? Tell me what I said about it, that's a double standard by me.

SHEEHY: Do you...

MALZBERG: You don't know!

SHEEHY: Do you not support the ability of a private school, religious in nature, to control their curriculum?

MALZBERG: I think this school has every right to do what it did, and I never said it doesn't have a right. I think it's wrong.

SHEEHY: Why is it a gay issue?

BATTISTA: Steve, I get the feeling you feel like this is an assault on traditional families.

MALZBERG: Yeah, you know, it's very coincidental, as I relate on my WABC show, and in newsmax, my column.

My son, 19 months old, came home with my wife yesterday from Mommy and Me, and made his first project. I got him to sit still long enough and it was a Mother's Day card, and we hung it up, we displayed it prominently, we are so proud. Then I go downstairs and pick up "The New York Post" and the front page is: School Kills Mother's Day. And I think it is a disgrace, this is an American institution. What is next? You know, those --

SHEEHY: When this country turns into a theocracy, which is where you apparently want to take it, in...

MALZBERG: Right. Absolutely. Whatever you say.

SHEEHY: Your views control every private or public enterprise in this country. I mean, this is private. You know, conservatives have always supported the right of people in private...

BATTISTA: Jeff, let me ask you this: Would you support -- would you have the same view if it were a public school that had decided not to recognize Mother's Day?

SHEEHY: Would I support it? You know, it depends on why they did it. I mean, if you are in a community...

(LAUGHTER)

SHEEHY: ...in a community with families -- look at the rational from the rabbi. Obviously, they have diverse families there. Whether it is gay parents, whether it's single parents, whether it is kids being raised by grandparents, they have a diverse set of families, and if the motivation is to respect the feelings of kids who come from different families, I don't see what is wrong with it. I really don't.

MALZBERG: Maybe the 4th of July is a holiday we shouldn't celebrate because some people might be offended. You know what? Maybe Thanksgiving, those pilgrims were murderers for crying out loud, let's not celebrate Thanksgiving. Some may be offended!

SHEEHY: Oh, come on! That's ridiculous.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here, and Scott, your thoughts on this.

MALZBERG: There's Mother's Day going down the tubes.

SCOTT: Well, this is America and I believe that freedom is a benchmark, and therefore, this school, if it feels that it is best for its particular students to not celebrate this holiday, they have that right.

On the whole, I would like to see it celebrated in the schools, but I don't think it needs to be mandated and I don't think they need to be severely criticized for their decision.

BATTISTA: And Debbie, you are a teacher and a mom. How do you feel about it?

DEBBIE: I think it gives my students an opportunity to voice their pride in another part of their family or their community or their work or their school. They deserve the opportunity to do that.

BATTISTA: All right. We've got to take a quick break here. As I do, some e-mails.

Beverly in Jackson says: "The real stupidity is the school principal punishing all the children from normal healthy homes by pretending that the holiday doesn't exist. Now the politically correct don't want to recognize real relationships under the guise if protecting feelings. That principle should be fired."

Michael in New York says, "As a gay man raised by a lesbian single mom, I love my mother and choose to honor her every day, especially on Mother's Day. I do, however, agree with the woman interviewed in the opening, this is a Hallmark holiday, it does not necessarily belong in schools."

We will find out shortly that it is not a Hallmark holiday, as many people think, but as we go to break, do you think schools should ban Mother's Day celebrations? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. And while you're there look at my daily notes,send us an e-mail. You've been good real good about that. Keep them coming. We will take a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me take a quick phone call from Trisha in Georgia. Go ahead.

TRISHA: Hi, Bobbie. This issue is very personal to me. My mother died when I was nine years old, and I remember, as a child, going to school and having everybody else making cards for their mothers, and it was so painful and always created a lot of stress on me and also my brother. And we didn't really have another female role model that we could make cards for.

BATTISTA: How about your teacher, Trisha, was she sensitive to it?

TRISHA: Well, really, I don't think I ever said anything to my teacher about it. I think it was just one of those things where you just sort of suffered in silence and really didn't do anything that would call more attention to it. I think it's one of those things that's very painful and you just kind of deal with it and go on but it is a tough issue. I can really understand why it would be difficult.

MALZBERG: Trisha, did you have a father -- did you have a father?

TRISHA: Yes, I did.

MALZBERG: Did he address it at all? Did you address it with him at home? Did he try to make the pain easier?

TRISHA: Well, actually my mother was murdered by my father when I was nine.

MALZBERG: Oh, well -- terrible.

TRISHA: It was very tough all the way around.

BATTISTA: Yes.

TRISHA: There really was nobody there that I could, sort of, rely on, so I can see why it would be a good thing to maybe not have this in a school. You can have Mother's Day celebrated through churches and through, you know, other kinds of activities.

BATTISTA: Or, just in private, is what you are saying, basically. Steve, she does have a point...

MALZBERG: With all due respect, she has a tragic story, but I mean it is certainly a very, very rare story, where there wasn't even a father at home to say, look, it will be tough, kids are going to be making Mother's Day cards. We'll think of your mother, love your mother, et cetera, et cetera. As this -- if it's true what Andrea Peyser wrote that if it's true that this gay father went to the administration and came out bragging, I got them to take away mother's day.

SHEEHY: I wish you'd stop bringing up the gay thing.

MALZBERG: You won't let me talk, will you? just won't. It was in the story, sir. It was part of the story, sir.

(CROSSTALK)

SHEEHY: In a moment's pain.

MALZBERG: You don't get. You just don't get it.

SHEEHY: It you are right.

BATTISTA: Let's take a break quickly from this debate here, because I think there's some misunderstandings about Mother's Day. How exactly did the day get started anyway? Ellen Jacob, who is the author of the book "You're The Best Mom Ever," joins us on the phone quickly to answer some questions for us.

Ellen, I think most people are under the impression that it pretty much was a holiday created by, you know, Hallmark cards and the flower and candy industry, but that's not the case, is it?

ELLEN JACOB, AUTHOR: Well, no, there are a few different theories on how Mother's Day first came to be. And one of those beliefs is that in 1872 Julia Ward Howell, who also wrote the words to the battle hymn of the republic, that she organized Mother's Day meetings in Boston every year to celebrate peace.

Another belief is that the holiday's origin began in Albion, Michigan, in 1877. And there was a woman, Juliet Calhoun Blakely, who took over the Sunday services on her birthday, because her pastor had become quite distraught over a drunken scandal involving his son. And he was so distraught that he couldn't preach, so she took over and her children were so impressed by her actions that they vowed every year on her birthday to pay tribute to her.

What everyone does agrees with, though, is that in 1914, after Anna Jarvis of Philadelphia had spent seven years campaigning to establishing a day celebrating moms, that President Woodrow Wilson proclaimed the second Sunday of May as Mother's day, and since that time we have celebrated Mother's Day.

BATTISTA: And how was it celebrated in the past? Have we always celebrated it, for the most part, in schools with our young children?

JACOB: Yes, it's been celebrated by giving one's mother cards and flowers. And as society has gotten more commercial the holiday has become more commercial. But yes, kids have made cards in schools since...

BATTISTA: Why do you suppose it is important that we have one day to honor mom rather than, kind of, that 365/24/7 for mom?

JACOB: Well, think it's always nice to take one day and remember probably the one person or one of two people who have really gave one life and really have, in most cases, raised the children. And whether it is a parent, you know, the male parent or the female parent, it is nice to take one day and pause and celebrate your mom, and then there's another day where you celebrate your dad. And in my book what I do, it is just a very positive tribute, and loving memories and anecdotes about one's mom.

BATTISTA: All right. Ellen Jacob, thanks very much. Appreciate the little history lesson there.

JACOB: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Couple more e-mails here: Tony in Boston says, "Why should we celebrate any of these silly Hallmark holidays? The only isolate and make people who can not relate to them feel out of step with American culture. Jewish kids feel so alienated at Christmas time, there's no reason for celebrating these arbitrary holidays other than to sell greeting cards."

MALZBERG: Well, I don't think Christmas is an arbitrary holiday certainly to Christians, and I'm Jewish. But that's another point. The schools are closed for Christmas. Doesn't that offend Muslim children and Jewish children? Doesn't that confuse them? Shouldn't we get rid of that? And in New York the schools are closed for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, the Jewish high holy days. Wouldn't that offend and confuse Muslims and Catholics and Christians?

You can't do this. You can't have hypersensitivity to everybody. Why can't others be tolerant of the majority? Those who want tolerance from the majority also have to exhibit a certain amount of tolerance.

SHEEHY: You know, Bobbie, if I could go a little bit off the subject here. You know, the real story about Mother's Day this year is the U.S. dropping out of the top 10 countries for mothers -- because we don't provide adequate health care. So many mothers, so many children don't have access to health care in this country because of wage disparities.

MALZBERG: There's not one child that doesn't have access to health care.

BATTISTA: Well, we're getting into that...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Actually, we are getting into that topic in the second half of the hour.

SHEEHY: That's what we should be embarrassed about.

MALZBERG: Any kid can walk into an emergency room with his mom and get health care. Any kid, anywhere in this country.

SHEEHY: It'd be great if he didn't have to go to the emergency room to get health care. It'd be great if he could see a doctor...

MALZBERG: But you said he doesn't have access to health care. They do.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly. And, Alicia.

ALICIA: Well, I just think there are so many things that aren't traditional anymore, and I think we should just keep some things the way they are.

BATTISTA: Thank you. And Jeff, this e-mail from Peggy says: "As a single parent, my children's teachers manage to include influential males for Father's Day for my children. What are these same-sex parents afraid of? Let these children honor an influential female in their life. It's healthier for all parties concerned."

SHEEHY: Well, I come back, it's really not this movement within the gay community to do away with Mother's and Father's Day. I don't think it was simply the concerns of same-sex parents that motivated this school. I think that they have a lot of diverse families. I would suspect, if New York is anywhere like San Francisco, there's a lot of single parent families. It's just a different world.

And I think that school wanting to acknowledge that there's a diversity of family and not the illusion of the traditional family with, for this school, for this particular subset of people.

(CROSSTALK)

MALZBERG: There is no illusion of traditional family, sir.

SHEEHY: Well, you know, maybe...

MALZBERG: Traditional family is what this country was built on. And if you want it...

(CROSSTALK)

SHEEHY: Maybe on the Upper West Side of New York it's not.

BATTISTA: You guys are perfectly in sync here.

MALZBERG: You'd like to put forth the notion that there is no such thing as a nuclear traditional family any longer, and that's true to a degree, but you want to go along step by step and take away tradition after tradition. Again, where is the tolerance on your side? Where is the tolerance on your side.

SHEEHY: My position is not to do away with Mother's Day. It's not to do away with Father's Day.

(AUDIO DELETED)

MALZBERG: So you would urge every school in the nation not to follow suit?

SHEEHY: I would say for each school to make the decision that's appropriate for the children that are there.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break here. Everybody loves mom, but you can't take that to the bank. An economic journalist will explain in a few minutes why the road to motherhood often leads to the poor house. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Telephone call. Doris in New York. Doris, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Hi.

CALLER: Happy Mother's Day to your mother.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: Thank you.

CALLER: You know what? I'll tell you something: If it's not broken, don't fix it. Here's what's going on. They're going to get rid of Mother's Day. Why? Everyone's had a mother who suffered labor pains to have them. If nothing else, at least for that.

Also they're going to get rid of George Washington because some people aren't patriotic? Somebody is really wrecking things around there, and the guy in the green shirt, what he's trying to do is lose the forest for the trees. This has got nothing to do with health care. It's got to do with honoring your mother.

BATTISTA: Well, let me...

CALLER: Go ahead.

BATTISTA: You know, I agree with you. Thanks very much, Doris, but the other side of the coin there is Margie, in Clayton, Georgia, who says that: "Even as a child in the first grade, I thought that having one of my classmates sit watching others make cards or gifts for Mother's Day when her mother had recently died was an unnecessarily cruel exercise. Since school is a place for learning, discussing the origins of the holiday would be an entirely appropriate alternative."

MALZBERG: Bobbie, you know, this school, it's a Jewish- affiliated school, but you don't have to be Jewish to attend. In fact, John McEnroe reportedly sends his children there. What if there are American Indian, or children of American Indian background, who believe that the land was taken away by the Pilgrims, and they're offended, I'm talking about Thanksgiving.

BATTISTA: But you know what, Steve? We're not talking about adults being offended. We're talking about six-year-olds crying in class...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: No, but getting emotionally upset and crying in class because their mom died six months ago.

MALZBERG: I never saw that happen in all my years as a kids growing up. I mean, there were kids who had one parent. But again, it's up to the parent at home who is left to make it better, to explain to the child -- to make it easier. That's just life.

BATTISTA: Well, maybe that's what we should do, is put a little more emphasis on, once again, on the teachers, but you know what I mean? You have to know the kids in their class who are in those sensitive situations and deal with that accordingly.

SHEEHY: Exactly, Bobbie. You know, those people at this school know their kids. They're doing it because -- to try to be sensitive to the needs of their kids. For the record, I sent my mother a big bouquet of flowers. My husband sent his mom a bouquet of flowers. We do this every -- we celebrate Mother's Day. We honor our mothers. I love my mom.

BATTISTA: But why throw the baby out with the bath water, is what I'm saying? It's like, why can't you celebrate the holiday and have everyone else involved be sensitive?

SHEEHY: Well, I think you just heard. You've heard from the woman in Georgia, the woman who just wrote in. The people at this school, I believe that their main concern is the welfare of the children...

MALZBERG: But they did it without talking to the parents. They did it without talking to the parents at large. We know...

SHEEHY: How do you know?

MALZBERG: Because parents have said they're outraged!

SHEEHY: You're just using this to beat up gay people. That's the only reason you care about this.

BATTISTA: Let me take another phone call...

MALZBERG: You are an idiot, sir, and I take offense to you categorizing me when you know nothing about me!

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call. C.W. in Florida. Go ahead.

CALLER: Hey.

BATTISTA: Hey.

CALLER: Hey, guys. I have two daughters, Carol and Julia, and two grandsons, Michelle and Philip. And I now have a 6-month-old great-grandson. His name is Dylan Michael, and they all love me very much, and I kind of raised Michelle and her mom and her Aunt Julia by myself since they were two and four years old, and they love me very much and Julia sends me a Mother's Day card every year, and she kind of writes on the bottom, well, you were kind of my mama and my daddy, and you were always there when I needed you and, God, that makes me feel great.

BATTISTA: Well, there you go.

MALZBERG: That's great.

BATTISTA: Thanks, C.W. We appreciate that. Here's a final thought: "In England, it's called Mothering Sunday, a more all- encompassing term because mothering, nurturing behavior is not gender specific. This name would be inclusive of gay couples. It would also include like me, who don't have children of their own, but have pets, maybe."

Nigel, is that true in England?

NIGEL: Oh, yes. It is called Mothering Sunday. See, the thing that occurs to me is really that it's based on family values, which incidentally came from America. Now, it seems to me that we are still keeping the family values, and you are starting to lose them, you know. So, it's the same. If you call it Mothering Sunday, then really, it takes the emphasis off mothers and fathers, but more on the family environment, so to speak.

MALZBERG: Why take the emphasis off mothers and fathers? That's how -- why -- I'm proud I have a mother and a father. I'm proud that my son has a mother and a father. Why be ashamed of it? And by the way, to your guest, stop throwing labels around at people you disagree with. It's a good practice to learn that.

SHEEHY: Idiot is a lovely label. It is a pleasure to meet you today.

BATTISTA: OK, that's a good way to end this segment, don't you think?

MALZBERG: Unbelievable. Thank you, Bobbie. Happy Mother's Day to everybody.

BATTISTA: Same to your wife.

SHEEHY: Happy Mother's Day.

BATTISTA: Jeff Sheehy, thank you for joining us as well. We appreciate your time. We'll take a break. What's it cost a woman to become a mother these days? Just about everything, according to our next guest. And after listening to her, you might wonder why any woman takes the mommy track. We will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. How much does a woman give up when she decides to take on the title of mother? Ann Crittenden is the author of "The Price of Motherhood: Why the Most Important Job in the World Is Still the Least Valued."

Ann, thanks very much for joining us.

ANN CRITTENDEN, AUTHOR, "THE PRICE OF MOTHERHOOD": Thank you.

BATTISTA: What is the price of motherhood? What did you find in your research?

CRITTENDEN: Well, it's interesting we're talking about Mother's Day. I'm glad we're having a few mothers now here to talk about it, but I will just give you an example. I wrote this book from personal experience, and I found enormous gap between the lip service we pay to motherhood and the real value and respect we place on the job.

A couple years ago, I got my estimate of what my Social Security retirement might be when I decide to retire, and there was a whole set of zeros on the page: zero, zero, zero, zero, zero. And I said, what is this? And I called the administration. It represented every year that I was mother first, and was basically at home taking care of my child and my family.

That's how much value is put on it, a zero, and I think that's wrong.

BATTISTA: What do you think us at the root of this devaluation, if you will?

CRITTENDEN: Well, it's historic. I mean, we have always assumed that mothers would do their enormous amount of work that they do for the family for nothing. Basically, it's woman -- mothers have been the ultimate cheap labor all through history, and we're just beginning to get out of that long, long period. It's not easy.

BATTISTA: And we always think of the United States as being so far out in front of a lot of other countries, but in fact that isn't true. We don't stack up too well, do we, compared to other...

CRITTENDEN: No, we don't. There are many measures. I'm actually giving a briefing on Capitol Hill tomorrow about some of the ways we shape up. There was a new report this week, I think someone earlier referred to it, that listed -- the U.S. fell at the bottom of all developed countries on some basic measures of how we treat mothers: measures like mothers health, child care, various well-being measures, illiteracy. We do well in literacy, but we don't do well in political participation. We have fewer mothers in political life than almost any other country.

BATTISTA: Let me bring Heather Cirmo into the conversation. She is a spokeswoman for the Family Research Council and Marilyn Kentz is with us, author of "The Mommies" and co-author of "Motherload." Good to see you, Marilyn, Heather.

HEATHER CIRMO, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Hi, it's good to be here.

BATTISTA: All right, Heather, is it a good time to be a mother in America or not?

CIRMO: Well, I think there are some encouraging signs. I think there's a lot of work that can be done, however. I think one the things we can do is alleviate the tax burden so that more woman can feel like they can spend more time with their children.

Another thing we can do, as Ann was talking about, is remove the stigma that is attached to mothers. Why is that when a mother who stays at home with her kids goes to a party and someone asks, what do you do for living and she says, I stay at home with my kids, the conversation ends? I think the response should actually be, that is so great. You should be commended because you are contributing so tremendously to our society, you're training up leaders, you're training up teachers, doctors and future parents. You are the reason that our future has hope.

BATTISTA: Marilyn, why -- I never quite understood that. Why is there this sort of unspoken war or tension between stay-at-home moms and mother who work. Why can't we respect each other's choice whole- heartedly?

MARILYN KENTZ, AUTHOR, "THE MOMMIES": I don't know. I'm sad about that. I just I think that it's very hard to be a mother today as opposed to even when our mothers were young and mothers of little children. It's very hard because we are isolated.

It's like there are people who have their own way of raising kids, let's just put it this way, and they -- no. Never mind. What happens is we aren't in a community that has the same moral judgments and values as the next person. There isn't one church that we all go to and decide on the same rules.

So, mothers are isolated. We don't know which way to turn when something comes up. My mother was not worried that there was pornography popping up on my computer screen. When I grew up, "Leave It to Beaver" only meant leave it to Theodore. It's very hard. I feel very isolated these days.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience and some moms -- Darlene. DARLENE: I was a stay-at-home mother, and enjoyed my time with my children and was able to contribute to, what I feel they had -- to their education, to their values. Back to Mother's Day, I felt that I was honored 365 days out of the year in being able to be a stay-at- home mother.

BATTISTA: So, I suspect you didn't feel like your time was of no value.

DARLENE: Absolutely not.

CIRMO: And Bobbie, and I really do think that more woman really do want to be able to stay home with their kids, they just don't feel like they can. A recent poll revealed that 15 percent of woman -- only 15 percent of women -- would actually work outside of the home full-time if money were not a consideration.

Many of them would choose to do volunteer work, they'd choose to work part-time from home or they'd just choose to work full-time with their kids, and I think that's something that our society should encourage rather than discourage.

BATTISTA: And...

CRITTENDEN: Can I speak up on that?

BATTISTA: Yes, go ahead.

CRITTENDEN: I think it's rather misleading to say if money were not a consideration. I don't think this is a situation where money is never a consideration. It's always a consideration. We live in a very materialistic capitalist society, and I think what we need to do is think -- I agree with tax -- but one of the things we need to do about tax is stop taxing mothers' incomes on top of fathers' income. If they were taxed separately, mothers would have very much more take- home pay and they would fine it more to their advantage to have some of their own income, which protects them against divorce and against the insecurities that come. Right now, mothers take most of the risk of divorce.

There are a lot of sides to this topic. But the bottom line is that mothers do lose an enormous amount of income as well as respect in many ways.

I was at a party -- I tell this story in my book. A guy came running up to me and he said, "Hey, didn't you used to be Ann Crittenden?" This is after I left my job to be at home.

We've got a ways to go on this.

KENTZ: Yeah, see, we really do need to appreciate mothers, and to take it out of the schools and take it out of the forefront of family as priority is kind of a sad thing. I mean, I understand being, you know, cautious and sweet to the children who have a little different vision, but you know, I think we should really support our moms in every version we can. BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break. As we do, Steven in Ocean City e-mails us: "I think mothers should go on strike until they get fair wages."

We'll be back in just a minute.

After a divorce, a woman's income drops an average of 24 percent. A man's will drop about 6 percent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: "Save the Children" released its "Mothers Index" yesterday, rating the well-being of women and children around the world. The top five countries were Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands. The U.S. ranked 11th, one ahead of Cuba.

Ann, there's a -- there's a part of your book also that addresses the price of motherhood among middle- and lower-income families or mothers and how different that is. How so?

CRITTENDEN: I'm sorry. I think all mothers are in the same boat. My whole point is that rich and poor, married or single, there are more issues in common than there are that separate women.

BATTISTA: Oh, OK. I thought there was more of a distinction between lower-income women making this decision and middle-income.

CRITTENDEN: Well, I do say -- I was just saying to your other guest that if you're a college graduate, you do pay a higher price in terms of what you give up when you have a child and have to leave year job so forth. And the price is so high in this country that a lot of women with college degrees are deciding not to have children at all.

We've got something like 28 percent childlessness among the baby- boomer women who are college graduates. That's the highest in any developed country in the world, because the price of motherhood is so high in this country.

BATTISTA: Heather, a lot of people might say, well, the price of motherhood isn't paid in dollars. You know what I'm saying kind of. In other words, I guess these women who are deciding not to have children are also feeling like they won't be -- they won't be fulfilled emotionally either.

CIRMO: I think that definitely does play a role. I think people label mothers as kind of second-class citizens. You know, you do that when you've accomplished your career goals. And unfortunately, what happens is when you place that at the back-burner and you're ready to have children at the age of 37, you realize that you're having trouble conceiving. And that is definitely the price that you pay for climbing the career ladder, and I think it's unfortunate that women have been told they can have it all and that she should strive to have it all.

The reality is we can't have it all and we shouldn't strive for that, but instead we should really try to fulfill ourselves emotionally and realize that motherhood is something that is very fulfilling and it's something that our society should value and that we should treat as a tremendous privilege and honor.

BATTISTA: Marilyn?

KENTZ: Yes, I completely agree. There's nothing like the bond between you and your children, but you can find that with other mothers. You know, once they start going to school, you start gravitating more toward other women: so you're not so isolated and you're not the only one at the party that only knows the Disney movies.

(LAUGHTER)

CIRMO: And I think also, Bobbie, I think it's also important to point to the tremendous role that the husband can play as well. I don't want to discount the role that they play, and they can add tremendous value to a mother and make her feel like she is still sexy and she is still the love of his life and that she is a great mother.

I mean, he can brag about her when he goes to party or when he's on business trips, when he's away from her. And I think that's something that's kind of missing in our society, too.

KENTZ: Yeah, but he has to tell her he's bragging about her.

CIRMO: I'm sorry.

KENTZ: He has to tell his wife that he is bragging about her. She won't know.

CIRMO: Oh, of course, and that'll win him tremendous points, too. But I think that that's -- I'd like to see more men speaking out about how they really appreciate their wife and the role that she plays in the lives of their children, and to see fathers coming alongside their wives as well and helping to raise their children and being more active in their lives.

BATTISTA: But Ann, let me read you this e-mail that just came in from David in Kentucky, who says: "People should not get tax breaks just for being a mother. You chose to become pregnant and raise children just as I chose to not have children. You put more of a financial burden on society by having children than I do, without any, so you should have to pay more in taxes."

CRITTENDEN: Uh-oh, bitter. Well, I would like to ask him if he's planning to not accept his Social Security checks, because who does he think is paying or going to pay for his Social Security. It'll be my son. It'll be other people's children. He will not get cut out of the system because he didn't go through the enormous time and energy and effort and love and expense that all the parents are putting in.

Parents don't get anything in return financially for that. But he will.

We won't get any more Social Security. That's how the system works.

And I might add that we all get love from our children and we're all altruistically motivated by having children. That's not why we have children, for any economic reason whatsoever. But I have not found that the supermarket accepts emotional gratification in payment. I haven't found that my landlord is happy with that.

We cannot continue to say if you have children, particularly to women, we're not going to let you rise out of dependency. You're still going to have to be dependent on someone else. I don't think that's what we want as a society.

I would like to be an equal citizen and an independent citizen without depending on someone else for survival just because I became a mother.

BATTISTA: Let me...

CIRMO: And also, there is strength in numbers, too. I mean, you have to have children to have a strong society, because they're going to grow up into upstanding citizens. And they are -- you know, to have a strong country you have to have a lot of people in that country. And I think that's unfortunate today: We see low population figures and countries asking themselves the question of how are we suffering as a country as a result of having lower numbers in population.

BATTISTA: I thought we had an overpopulation problem as well.

CIRMO: That's actually a myth.

CRITTENDEN: Let me say, yes, in countries that have more social supports for mothers frequently got to that place because they either had to allow women the opportunity to work in the job market or they had to import millions and millions and millions of foreign labor. And that's what this country is facing. Let's don't kid ourselves.

If people find that it's too onerous to have children -- I mean, there have calculations now that if a college graduate, male or female, who has a child will forego at least $1 million in lifetime earnings. I don't think that's an insubstantial, insignificant amount: plus the direct cost of raising children.

More and more people are saying, "My god, can I do this?" because people today want to put more into their kids than they used to. They want to invest in their kids. They want them to go to college. They want them to have the best. They want to spend time with them.

BATTISTA: And I think as a society as a whole we are having less children. I think families are, aren't they? I mean...

CRITTENDEN: Yeah, yeah.

BATTISTA: ... I think statistically speaking they are.

CRITTENDEN: The more -- around the world, the more education women have, the fewer children they have and the more investment they want to put into those children in terms of time and income.

CIRMO: Well, yeah, because, you know...

BATTISTA: Hold that thought. Hold that though. Real quick, I've got to take a break here. I'm sorry. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. Earlier we talked about a school that has banned Mother's Day recognition and our question today was "Do you think schools should celebrate Mother's Day?" Let's see how it adds up on the viewer vote. It was 79 percent said yes and 21 percent said no.

Marilyn, you have your daughter on your lap, I understand.

KENTZ: Yes. Here's my daughter, my 15-year-old daughter.

BATTISTA: 15-year-old daughter, and she's worth a million.

KENTZ: She is.

BATTISTA: All right. Well, thank you all, Ann Crittenden, for being with us. Heather, thank you for being with us. Marilyn, good to see you again.

KENTZ: Thank you.

BATTISTA: And join us please again tomorrow at 3:00 for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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