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CNN Talkback Live

Should John Ashcroft Bring the Faith to Work?

Aired May 15, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. Sorry about that. We had a little technical problem there with the open of our show. But if your employer had a prayer group before work every day, would you feel compelled to go? Attorney General John Ashcroft holds Bible studies at the Justice Department. Some employees love the practice. Others think it's offensive and unconstitutional. Joining us today, Kevin Hasson, an attorney who has specialized in religious freedom for almost 15 years now, and also the Reverend Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

Gentlemen, thanks very much for joining us.

REV. BARRY LYNN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Thank you.

KEVIN HASSON, THE BECKET FUND: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Barry, there's two issues to be considered here. One is the separation of church and state issue, the other one is whether or not this affects or does not affect someone standing in the workplace. Do you think this goes far enough to violate the separation of church and state issue?

LYNN: I don't know that you could file a lawsuit and have a declaration that this is unconstitutional. But I am concerned very much about the way in which this makes people who may not share General Ashcroft's view of religion -- how comfortable they're going to be feeling in the workplace. I think it's very, very insensitive for the head of any federal agency or department to have regular religious rituals, which will give the sense, for many individuals, of coercion -- that they're going to get further, or perhaps not get as far as they would like to, depending on whether they do or do not participate in these events.

And I think that it's demonstrated that it's already had this effect because there are virtually no people who will go on the record with "The Washington Post," who broke this story, or with any of networks to publicly criticize this practice, because I think they are genuinely fearful that Mr. Ashcroft will hurt their career if they don't participate.

During the confirmation hearings of Mr. Ashcroft, his treatment of people like Judge Ronnie White, it was clear that he does hold grudges. And I think many of those career employees fear it and don't want to go public about it by name because they fear that they will suffer consequences for their career.

BATTISTA: On the other hand, Kevin, though, the attorney general is not forcing anyone to go or coercing anyone to go or mandating it. Doesn't that make it fairly benign, in terms of legal terms?

HASSON: It really does, Bobbie. Barry is trying to ticket somebody for running a green light. There has been this kind of thing going on ever since the beginning of the Republic. When Thomas Jefferson was president, there were church services in the war office, in the treasury department, in the House of Representatives, and the Supreme Court chamber every Sunday. This is really nothing in comparison. This is absolutely benign.

LYNN: Well, frankly, I think it's worse, Kevin, because this is the top dog. This is the man who really runs this whole department.

HASSON: It's into worse than communion service in the Supreme Court, Barry?

LYNN: Sure, because there's no pressure for people go to the communion service in the Supreme Court, but there is a subtle, and indeed, I'd say not so subtle pressure to participate in this religious ritual every morning.

HASSON: And what if the attorney general were a jogger? Would there be social pressure to go jogging with the attorney general? Discriminating against handicapped people?

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I was talking about that earlier with the audience, and I'm not sure that I quite see the parallel between, you know, jogging with somebody and sharing a religious experience. Because, I mean, the one tends to be more intimate. I mean, that's what corporate worship is all about. It's more bonding and intimate than just jogging with somebody.

HASSON: There's a difference of opinion about that in the society at large. But what makes them similar is the federal law prohibits discrimination against a handicap, just as it prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religion. If jogging with the attorney general gives you a special access to him, and that doesn't violate the Americans with Disability Act, this shouldn't violate Title 7 or the Establishment Clause.

Really, this is very simple. The attorney general has a life, just like everybody else, and he gets to live it.

LYNN: You know, although he does get to live it, and I certainly do think that people, including high government officials, have a right to practice their religion. But frankly, although Mr. Hasson is very worried about the so-called rights of the attorney general, I'm a little bit more worried about the rights of the average man or woman who is just trying to do his or her job responsibly in the Justice Department, who fears that their career advancement could be hampered if they don't participate. I do think it does trivialize it a bit to say, well, this is just like a sport, some people can't participate.

We do have very clear historically sound roots of opposition to religious discrimination in any form, including in employment. I'm even afraid that there may be people who will not decide to apply to be an employee at the Justice Department, knowing that they're going to be entering an atmosphere that is not going to be conducive to their religion. If they're a Humanist, if they're an Episcopalian, if they're someone who does not share the Christian traditions out of which Mr. Ashcroft comes.

HASSON: Barry, you seem to be afraid of lots of different things. Maybe you should switch to decaf. This is not that big a deal.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: Are there rules that the government puts out, surrounding this kind of thing -- the expression of religion in the workplace? Are there certain rules that have to be followed?

LYNN: Yes, there are.

HASSON: Certainly, there can be no coercion, Bobbie, and if the attorney general were coercing people to come to his prayer meeting, the Becket Fund would be one of the first people to sue him. He's not. He's having his prayer meeting, and the Becket fund will be one of the first people to defend it.

LYNN: You know, I'd have to give you a different answer. There are rules, and one of the rules is that the people in positions of authority, that is, supervisors over their employees, have to not only not be coercive, but they have to avoid the appearance of coercion. And I think that if you're talking about the top law enforcement official of the United States, he really ought to have the common sense and the common decency to stop this practice.

No one's going to stop him from praying in his office at 8:00 in the morning. But this regular ritualistic performance of Bible study and prayer, which, I have no doubt, is deeply held and sincerely held by the attorney general -- but I think this practice really goes beyond what is going to make people comfortable to be employees. And that's exactly what the federal guidelines are designed to prevent.

BATTISTA: Well, if you read part of them, though, Kevin, it says that you can express yourself religiously in private. Now, what does that mean, "in private"? Does that mean by yourself, or does it include a small group that's in private?

HASSON: Of course it does, Bobbie. It doesn't mean that prayer is like cigarette smoke, that you get to do it by yourself out in the cold. It means you just can't do it using the captive audience of your office. Certainly, there would be a way -- he could violate the Constitution if he wanted to. If he really wanted to cause trouble, he could send out a memo saying: "Everyone report to my office and we'll have a Bible study."

He hasn't done that. He, and anybody who want to do the same thing he does, meet together privately and pray. And that's a good thing. It's nothing like cigarette smoke. It's a very normal part of life.

LYNN: You know, this is just the tip of the ice burg, Bobbie. If this were the only thing he did, than maybe Kevin Hasson's position here would make more sense. John Ashcroft has even sent out a memo to employees who might write letters, particularly those on his behalf, with forbidden words and phrases. You can't say you're "proud," because in John Ashcroft's mind, pride is a sin.

HASSON: No, you can't say he's proud. There's a big difference. He's not forbidding other people from speaking. He's forbidding people from...

LYNN: Let me just finish, here...

HASSON: ... drafting the stuff that he doesn't want drafted for his own voice.

LYNN: He doesn't want the phrase used that there is no higher calling than public service. In other words, he has a list of phrases and words that he does not want attributed to him, even by other people writing on his behalf. Why? Because they violate his religious sensibilities.

Now, I am not here criticizing the fact that this is a deeply religious man. He has very strongly held beliefs, as you know. But I do think that this crosses very quickly into a line of coercion, into making people uncomfortable. And when you have the English police added to the prayer sessions and added to some of the other activities that we've we learned about in the last few days, you've got trouble in the department.

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call quickly, here. Kate, in Oregon. Go ahead, Kate.

CALLER: Hi. I think it's inappropriate. I find it offensive, and I suspect the majority of the major corporations, your top Fortune 500 companies, that it would be neither tolerated nor permitted under their rules of conduct, and I wish he'd stop it.

BATTISTA: Why do you find it offensive, Kate?

CALLER: You know, it's not the place. The workplace is not the place. If he wants to say a prayer at his desk, that's fine. I find that it is not the appropriate place for that type of expression, and I really -- I'm offended. And I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and I think it's wonderful, people who go to church and live their faith on a daily basis. But this isn't the place.

BATTISTA: All right, Kate, thanks very much. I have to take a quick break here as we do some e-mails. J.B. in Los Angeles says: "Everyone should take their faith with them to work. It makes a better world."

Dan in Alabama says: "I say no prayers or Bible study. I am a churched Christian, but I learned from my years of military service to tolerate and respect the views and beliefs of others. The perception of favoritism, real or imagined, should not be in the minds of the others."

We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: We're back. Let me go to the audience quickly, just to get a little bit of reaction. Tiffany, go ahead.

TIFFANY: I think that it's OK for him to have prayer meetings at his workplace, as long as it's not intruding on his work, like, as long as they do it on lunch break or before work; and everybody feels comfortable with it.

BATTISTA: And Desmond? We should say that you are a pastor from South Africa.

DESMOND: Yes, I am. I have no difficulty with people taking their faith into society and integrating it. I think it's a wonderful thing. But I think there are two issues here that are pertinent. The one is the issue of power. The power relationship changes, even in -- we talked about an example of golfing, or something like that. But if you have -- if somebody has a relationship, a man and a woman, that's innocent. The moment you put a power relationship around that, you come into the issues of whether you do it to get advancement. And that is a legitimate question.

The third thing is a question about appearance. You don't want to do anything that has the appearance of favoring those who might be participate, and excluding those who do not. So I think those are a possible balanced view that I have.

BATTISTA: Kevin?

HASSON: Well, of course you don't want to do anything that makes people legitimately think that they have to come to a Bible study if they want to get advanced in the government. But he is not doing that. He is simply saying, very generically, anybody is welcome. And he's got a variety of people who come. And it's no different from anything that's been going on on Capitol Hill since the founding of the Republic. And it is a lot, lot simpler than holding communion services in treasury building and in the Supreme Court.

LYNN: I think the pastor actually brings up another important issue, and that is the flip side of this -- not the person who's not comfortable, but the person who's simply going in order to advance his or her career by getting, what we call face time, with the big dog, you know, the guy who runs the whole department.

There's something a little unreal about some of Mr. Hasson's views here. The real world, people do have these power relationships. They do find themselves trying to do the things that the boss wants, hoping that they will advance. And I'm afraid that that's what creates such an enormous difference between this and these more abstract things that happened 200 years, where you didn't have power relationships...

HASSON: You didn't have power relationships from President Jefferson and the entire cabinet?

LYNN: Well, yeah, he picked his whole cabinet, though.

HASSON: It's not like there are hundreds of people lining up to these Bible studies. There's 20 people.

LYNN: That's of course because part of it, you know, he claims that he wants to allow for disputes here. Not just -- you don't just memorize Bible versus, you can even argue with them. But what employee is realistically going to get in there and say: You know, Mr. Ashcroft, come to think of it, I know that you believe abortion is murder, but I don't think that that's true, and the scriptures tell me otherwise.

I mean, you're not going to have that kind of debate or discussion with your superior.

HASSON: So you're worried about the people who come because they're not being genuine, they're touting up...

LYNN: They could be.

HASSON: And you're worried about all the people who don't come because they're being intimidated. So you're worried about everybody, Barry.

LYNN: Well, yes, I do try to be sensitive to the fact that there are people in the real world who do things for the right reasons and the wrong reasons; and also that in the real world the kinds of power relationships that the pastor from South Africa talks about are very real. And they're particularly real when it's an issue of one employee, perhaps a junior-grade person, and the head of entire agency, the attorney general of the United States.

HASSON: Sure, but those power relationships cut across everything. They cut across jogging with the attorney general. What if he likes opera? Does that discriminate against tone deaf people because they can't have access to the attorney general at the Kennedy Center? He just has to have a life.

LYNN: You know, you trivialize this whole thing. You act like religious discrimination is not something that's more important than these other things.

HASSON: No, this isn't religious discrimination.

LYNN: Of course it is. This is not -- this is something where everyone knows, who knows anything about Attorney General Ashcroft, that he is a devout Pentecostal Christian. He is a person with a very specific view about how his life and moral values should and should not intersect with his government work. And I think everything that he's done so far is to demonstrate that those of us who are fearful that he would not be able to separate his personal religious convictions from his public duties -- I think it's starting to look like we were right in the first place.

HASSON: You were wrong in the first place, and you're wrong now, Barry. In the legislature -- he didn't just defend Christians: He defended Jews, he defended Muslims. He defended religious freedom -- and the man who said it's against his religion to impose his religion, and his record bares that out.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a -- I've got to take a quick break here, gentlemen. And when we come back, we will talk to the operations director for something called the Christian Embassy. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: What would your reaction be if your boss led a prayer group in the office?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't see any problem with it as long as it's a free choice. You don't want to make someone feel like they have to be part of something. But if it's an option, I don't see a problem with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I may be forced to go, but no, I don't think I would agree with it and I would probably voice my opinion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand the problem with peer pressure or superior pressure. They think they have to because the boss did it, and that is a problem. But I think people should be free to do what they want to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd participate in it. I think it's great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I pray every day for a raise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And a couple of more e-mails here. Katie in Florida says: "I am an atheist. If my boss invited me into her office for a prayer meeting, I would go and claim a miraculous religious conversion as I would hope to be promoted. The good thing is my boss has too much respect for her employees to put us into that position."

Steve in Syracuse says: "Maybe practicing one's religion in public office is not entirely appropriate, but isn't it refreshing to debate this as opposed to the eight years of debating whether entertaining mistresses and inappropriate sexual deviance is appropriate conduct while in public office?"

OK. Moving on, joining us now on the phone is Sam McCullough, director of operations for the Christian Embassy. Sam, what is the Christian Embassy? What do you guys do?

SAM MCCULLOUGH, CHRISTIAN EMBASSY: Well, we're a ministry of campus crusade for Christ, and we basically are a spiritual resource to those that are working in government. We kind of help to put together or facilitate the networking of individuals that are working in government at various levels.

BATTISTA: So do you -- what you're saying is you basically go around and set up prayer meetings among -- at senators' offices or...

MCCULLOUGH: I would say that it's not exactly, quote, "prayer meetings," but they might be. They might be discussion groups talking about how to know God personally and what it means to know Him in a personal way, how they can grow in that relationship. And so finding those people that are interested in discussing those issues and putting them together with others of like mind is what we do.

BATTISTA: Umm...

MCCULLOUGH: A lot of it is on an individual basis, one-to-one type appointments, but then we put them together in, you know, small groups of peers.

BATTISTA: So who are you dealing with mainly? Is it -- is it all levels of government employees or is it senators and congressman and Cabinet members?

MCCULLOUGH: Yes. I would say we're -- we're mainly focused on those that are in leadership, which would be your members of Congress and the senators and chiefs of staff and different ones of those levels. On the executive branch, we're working in the same areas. We're also in the diplomatic community with ambassadors, and the flag officers over at the Pentagon.

But the emphasis there is to encourage them to be together with others of like mind. These are public individuals that oftentimes have a lot of stress and pressure in their jobs as well as in their private lives. And so it gives them an opportunity to interact with others in similar positions.

We don't -- I know that a lot of your conversation there today was talking about, you know, say, the boss having groups in his office. I think our organization probably helps those that are bosses to get together, like senators get together or congressmen get together or chief of staff get together, in small groups to interact. So they'd be from a cross-section of offices.

BATTISTA: Barry, do you have a problem with that?

LYNN: Well, you know, I'd feel actually more comfortable with this if Sam McCullough was in the business mainly of taking the average employee and making sure that they understood that they do have a right to, even in government workplaces, to voluntarily get together for times of religious expression. But I'm more uncomfortable with his description of how they aim for the top people. Now, he did say that the top people are going to interact with other top people, which of course eliminates this superior-inferior relationship problem. But I do think that we have to make something very clear: There are common-sense rules that most of us can apply and do apply in the workplace.

No one things the workplace, even a government one, should be a religion-free zone where you can never express your religious opinions or never pray. I just think that when you've got the head of a department involved in an absolute daily, every day at 8 o'clock, this is just something that crosses the line not only of prudence but of the guidelines that the federal government has created and that work, I think, quite well at making sure that religion can be practiced without anyone feeling intimidated when they're doing business with the government or working for it.

BATTISTA: Sam, do you -- do you go by those government guidelines when you're setting up these arrangements?

MCCULLOUGH: Well, in that sense, I mean, anything that we do -- and we do have groups at all levels. It's not just the senior leaders, in that sense. We encourage people to really gather their own, you know, people of similar interests as well. But I would say that, you know, we're very careful in terms of never coercing people to do something they don't want to do or be uncomfortable.

We invite many skeptics to groups to talk about, you know, what it is they're skeptical about and how the Bible fits into everyday living and in the workplace.

LYNN: But you know, inviting skeptics in, but the difference between you inviting skeptics in among peers and having skeptics come in to challenge John Ashcroft's religious views -- you do, Sam, see a difference in the atmosphere in those two situations, when you're dealing with peers or when you're dealing with someone like Attorney General Ashcroft.

MCCULLOUGH: Yeah, that's -- no, I totally understand. You're talking about the power structure there. And the type of ministry that we're focused on probably doesn't deal with that, although there are a number of members in Congress that are -- that do have opportunities like that and prayer times in their office with staff that want to join them.

HASSON: It sounds...

MCCULLOUGH: So it's not totally unique that John's done that.

HASSON: Sam, it's Kevin Hasson. You would agree, wouldn't you, that Muslims have the same right to do what you do and...

MCCULLOUGH: Oh, sure.

HASSON: ... Jews have the same right to do what you do and Buddhists have the same right to do what you do?

MCCULLOUGH: Right, yes.

HASSON: Because it's a free country, right?

MCCULLOUGH: Right, yes.

HASSON: And the attorney general defends the freedom of the country to be as religious or as non-religious as it wants to be and that applies to him, too.

LYNN: Oh wait, hold it -- wait a second. You know, again, we're talking about an abstraction here. We have a record of John Ashcroft that -- a man who is...

HASSON: We do. We have a record of a man...

LYNN: A man who has said...

HASSON: ... who has defended the freedom of all different kinds of religions...

LYNN: No.

HASSON: ... including the ones he didn't belong to.

LYNN: No, that's -- that's not true. And of course, the difference between Muslims is that -- Muslims who are -- get together in the Justice Department don't have their boss being a Muslim. The boss, John Ashcroft, happens to be a Christian. And again, this is a man who has said publicly that he believes that a robed elite -- that means the Supreme Court of the United States -- has turned the wall of separation into a wall of oppression. That's his ideology about church and state separation. He doesn't really take it very seriously. We learned that...

HASSON: And he said it's against...

LYNN: We learned that in the confirmation hearing.

HASSON: And he said it was against his religion to impose his religion and his record bears that out.

LYNN: No, I say, quite to the contrary. This is a man that bears grudges against people who have different views than he does on matters from race to religion, and I -- I really think you're giving him far too much credit.

HASSON: His legislative record -- his legislative record bears out his defending the religious freedom of everybody. And that's...

BATTISTA: I've got -- I've got to take another break, and I'll come back and get to the audience here, they've been waiting patiently. But Kevin Hasson, Barry Lynn and Sam McCullough, thank you all very much for joining us. Appreciate it.

In a moment, Julianne Malveaux and Armstrong Williams will talk about taking your prayers to work. We will be back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right, we're back. Quickly to the audience here, Blair, go ahead.

BLAIR: Well, one of things that keeps being brought up and -- first of all, I was an atheist probably until 15 years ago, and I've been saved now. But -- and I'm not one to wear my religious beliefs on my shirt sleeves like some people are, especially here in the deep South. But -- and I believe that religion does need to be in the workplace, not openly and not under any pressure, but in a situation that Mr. Ashcroft is in.

If he was to have a separate building across the street and off of public property, that he held the same meetings before work, I think he would still be under the same scrutiny as far as people feeling pressured politically that, "Well, maybe I better get in on this group if I'm going to excel under management."

BATTISTA: All right. And Carl, quickly.

CARL: Too often people thinking what -- what it looks like. We do too much in the country, what it looks like. What it is or not is, is the real question. And as far as being pressured to do things, from time beginning, bosses have said go to the right clubs, buy the right car, do the -- marry the right people, So I mean, the pressure is in there, but I don't think Ashcroft is doing the pressure. He's just inviting them.

BATTISTA: All right, let me bring syndicated radio talk show Armstrong Williams into this conversation and syndicated columnist Julianne Malveaux. Hi, you guys. Thanks for joining us.

JULIANNE MALVEAUX, COLUMNIST: Hi, Bobbie, how are you?

BATTISTA: I'm good. I know Armstrong is ready to rumble.

MALVEAUX: Yeah, he's ready to rock'n'roll always.

BATTISTA: You go, Armstrong.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Actually, listening to this discussion actually gives me great peace. Whatever it takes for us to talk about prayer again is all right with me. At least we're not talking about kids killing each other, people cheating on their spouses.

I think what Mr. Ashcroft is doing -- and I think that the gentleman was absolutely correct: No matter what he does, it will be criticized. But this is on a voluntary basis, people are choosing to come to this. I think it reminds us what keeps us huddle -- huddled together as masses, what's important in life. I think it helps us reflect on finding the good within ourselves. I think it helps us find the love, the compassion and the tolerance which Barry Lynn seems to think which is not there.

MALVEAUX: Oh, Armstrong.

WILLIAMS: And another thing about Mr. Ashcroft, having known him for some time, this has been a part of his life, both public and private, for as long as most people have known him. There's no harm in prayer. Now, if someone has an agenda, if they're going to the prayer meeting in order to try to network with Mr. Ashcroft or network with his staff, that's on them. But his heart is in the right place. I think it's something that we should celebrate, I think that it's a wonderful experience. I wish we had more.

MALVEAUX: But -- you know, prayer is a private thing. I am a Christian, I pray in my house, in my privacy, and I revel in that. I would not bring that to the workplace, and I don't think that anybody should.

I'm very disturbed at the notion that the attorney general would invite his employees to come and pray with him. Everyone is not a Christian. There are Muslims in this country, there are agnostics, there are people who celebrate other religions. Would you feel the same way if there was a member of the Nation of Islam who asked you to come and pray? If it some -- witches doing a coven in the morning? I think this would raise all kind of eyebrows and it should raise the same eyebrows here.

Prayer is very important, Armstrong. I'm very moved by what you had to say. And I agree with you that prayer does allow us to find the best in our souls, but this is a private matter and the workplace is a public matter. There are some other issues here: 8:00 a.m. Single moms, other people, cannot easily come to do this. This is about -- not only about prayer, it is about networking. It's about showing your face in the place, and I think there are real problems here.

So while I applaud Mr. Ashcroft for reveling in his faith as so many of us do, I would suggest that he separate church and state as the Constitution demands.

WILLIAMS: You know, what are we coming to as nation when you can say that a nation, whether you like it or not, was founded on godly principles, that we cannot pray in these buildings. I mean, the Establishment Clause clearly states that the government cannot establish an religion, but it clearly states that we have freedom of religion. What is wrong whether somebody can get there...

MALVEAUX: Freedom of religion on your own, Armstrong, not at work.

WILLIAMS: Please. Whether somebody can get at 8:00 a.m. or not is not the issue.

MALVEAUX: Yes, it is.

WILLIAMS: The issue is the man is trying to set standards in his workplace.

MALVEAUX: Armstrong, that's nonsense. WILLIAMS: He's trying to bring people together. He's trying to heal wounds. There are a lot of people who are suffering, there are people that need prayer. No one -- no one is saying...

MALVEAUX: So, that's why -- so, that's why.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Why are you fighting him? What is wrong with you and people like you?

MALVEAUX: In Washington, D.C., you have more churches for square mile than you have for virtually any place else in the country.

WILLIAMS: Well, we need more. Obviously...

MALVEAUX: So people have places to go to find refuge. No one is denying that people should find refuge and some solace for their pain.

WILLIAMS: This is the wrong fight, Julianne.

MALVEAUX: Here is what -- it's not a fight, Armstrong,

WILLIAMS: It's the wrong fight.

MALVEAUX: Armstrong, it is not a fight.

BATTISTA: Let me -- let me jump in here.

MALVEAUX: I will not fight with you about -- all I'm going to say is this: You must make sure that employees are not discriminated against...

WILLIAMS: You're a faint voice, Julianne.

MALVEAUX: ... because of their faith. And when...

BATTISTA: Let me...

MALVEAUX: ... Mr. Ashcroft invites his employees to come, he is discriminating by faith.

WILLIAMS: Discriminating?

MALVEAUX: It is -- it is disturbing.

WILLIAMS: Oh my goodness.

BATTISTA: Let me jump in and take a phone call from Stephanie in Texas. Stephanie, go ahead.

STEPHANIE: Hi. I just wanted to say that as Christians, Christ teaches us to share our faith with the world and at the same time to respect the will of others as God does. It seems like John Ashcroft is doing that, and when you take God away, things just fall apart. Look at our school systems. WILLIAMS: Absolutely, no question.

MALVEAUX: Well, I think that we are a country that is not all Christian. I think that this is something we have to deal with. Those of us who are Christians -- and I count myself among them -- understand that there are other people who have other faiths. We must not impose our Christianity on the rest of the world.

WILLIAMS: He did not say this was a Christian meeting, he did not say it was Muslim, he did not say it was about Judaism. He said, for those that want to pray, and that want to join me, come and volunteer and share this moment with me.

BATTISTA: Well, as we understand it...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: ... let me run through the meetings as we understand it. They do -- they are issued prayer books when they walk in, and they select a passage from the Bible, an then they discuss it, and they, you know, argue or whatever over it, memorize it, and then the meeting usually ends with a ecumenical prayer, although sometimes there's a mention of Jesus Christ or something like that.

WILLIAMS: That's good too. Nothing wrong with that.

BATTISTA: There you go.

MALVEAUX: You know, there is something wrong with it, Armstrong.

WILLIAMS: What is wrong with that?

MALVEAUX: Well, what's wrong with this is something that should be done privately.

WILLIAMS: It is private.

MALVEAUX: Your faith that you should embrace in your home. Armstrong Williams...

WILLIAMS: They spend more time there than they do in their home.

MALVEAUX: Armstrong Williams, you and I both share a powerful faith and believe in the almighty God, and the fact is that that belief is something that we can deal with in our homes and in our privacy, and it should not extend itself to the workplace where it may oppress others.

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm still going to have open prayer meetings in my office, because...

(CROSSTALK)

MALVEAUX: Well, I know you are, and I will not be there.

(CROSSTALK) BATTISTA: I've got to take a break. We will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right. E-mails, Jan in Washington says: "Ashcroft could do a lot worse than to have a morning prayer session. He's attempting to put aside ego and pride to a higher power. We can all do that."

Joyce in Chicago says: "I wonder how Ashcroft would react to another religion, say, druids or Wiccans, having services in his offices."

I'm curious about that, Julianne and Armstrong, do you think that a lot of this attack is coming because John Ashcroft is Christian? I know Christians in this country feel very put upon these days. And, say, if it were Joe Lieberman, for example, who was our attorney general and he was conducting some sort of Jewish class in the mornings. Would there be as much uproar?

MALVEAUX: I think that if it were Joe Lieberman of Louis Farrakhan or -- like the woman said in her e-mail witches or Wiccans, they would not even have the temerity to think that they could get away with that. They would understand that they were in a minority, and they would probably do this at home or in different places.

Christians are feeling put upon, but guess what? Christians are the majority in this country, yet we have a country where the majority cannot impose its will on others, and that's why, see, this is doing. I'm very saddened about this. As a Christian woman, I am saddened by the notion that the attorney general is using prayer, quite frankly, in my opinion for political purposes.

WILLIAMS: Well, obviously I have a different opinion. It gives me joy that the attorney general...

MALVEAUX: Armstrong, you always have a different opinion when I open my mouth.

WILLIAMS: And also, I think it's much deeper when we try to say it has to do with Christians. I there's hostility toward people's faiths, I think there's hostilities toward the mentioning of God, because when people talk about God, they talk about standards and restrictions, and I think we live in a society where people don't want to restrict their behavior. They want to do whatever they want to do, and they don't want to be reminded of the goodness in life, of the things -- of the better angels in lives, in our lives, and so I think Ashcroft reminds them of something that is very good and very wholesome, and they rebel against it.

I just want to say that even though I may disagree with...

MALVEAUX: Wholesome?

WILLIAMS: ... disagree with my friend Julianne Malveaux, I know that she means well. But fortunately, the good news from all of this, I'm willing to bet you -- and I'll bet the farm on this -- that over 60 percent of the American people in this country would absolutely joyously support what Mr. Ashcroft is doing. The only regret they would have is that many people who live close by, is that they are not invited because they are not employees of the Department of Justice. That's the only...

MALVEAUX: You know what? The separation, Armstrong...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: ... that they cannot participate.

MALVEAUX: The constitution requires a separation between church and state.

WILLIAMS: Where is it in the constitution, where is it?

MALVEAUX: We revel, and those who have faith, whatever faith we have, but you cannot bring that faith into the workplace!

WILLIAMS: Oh, please!

MALVEAUX: Yes, I saw the fax, Bobbie, when someone said, you pray and that makes you successful -- yes, but you close your eyes and do it! You don't bring it to everybody, and you do not force people, implicitly or explicitly -- and implicitly when the head...

WILLIAMS: No one is forcing you.

MALVEAUX: ... the head of the Justice Department says: "I'm having a prayer meeting." Guess what? If you want to move up in the Justice Department, you are lining up to be there.

BATTISTA: It unfortunately implies that if you don't pray, you are not successful. But let me take a phone call. Michael on the phone in California. Michael, go.

MICHAEL: Yes, how are you doing. I totally disagree with religion being in the workplace, especially in a government office, where they are dealing with capitalism and they're dealing with war. I think that religion should be totally separate from all of that, you know.

BATTISTA: Thanks very much, Michael. Let me go to -- is it Said? From Pakistan.

SAID: I'm a Muslim, and I think we have drifted away from the main thing: that is a prayer is between the creator and yourself. He's with you all the time. I pray five times a day, irrespective of where I am.

The only suggestion I would make is that every person practicing multiple religion should be free to do so, and at the workplace they should be a separate prayer room. If Mr. Ashcroft wishes to impose something that should be denied, but if he wishes to become a role model, and he wants that to be, society should indulge in self-catharsis and go down in prayer to the Almighty, where (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that should be encouraged.

BATTISTA: You guys, I've got to go to a break. Don't talk real quick. E-mails. Chris says: "Expressing religion in America is a right, that right does not cease to exist when someone steps into the Justice Department or any other government building."

Neal says: "I worry that John Ashcroft does not know when Bible study ends and the business of maintaining law begins."

We will be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A phone call from Niki in Michigan. Go ahead, Niki.

NIKI: Hi. I don't see a problem with people bringing in their faith to work, people are allowed to bring their dirty jokes. They talk about the parties they had last night, their sexuality into the job, and I don't see there's anything wrong with people bringing faith to work. If they want to pray, then allow them to pray. If you don't want to pray with them, then you don't have to. Because prayer changes things as well as people.

WILLIAMS: Amen, sister.

BATTISTA: Thank you. Over here to the audience. I can't read your name from here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think people are not looking at the perspective from Mr. Ashcroft. He is an Assemblies (UNINTELLIGIBLE) God's perspective, prayer is essential. I went to Bible college three years there, and I have degree there from Assemblies of God.

Every class was started with a prayer. It wasn't specific; we picked out different places within the United States and around the world and prayed for people to have food, prayed for -- it was not a specific God or this -- it was just to connect yourself with who you want to connect with.

And the second thing is, their perspective is, where two or more are gathered in His name, there He will be, so, it's very much a part of Assemblies of God perspective to have prayer meetings. You can go to Assemblies of God on Saturday. They will be there all day praying. That's just part of that lifestyle, it has nothing to do with where he is, he has been doing that for years. He did it in the Senate.

BATTISTA: And let me go to Barron.

BARRON: OK, I said a little bit ago, I think one of the most exciting things I got to do going to college was actually have conversations with people of other faiths, find out what they believe, and also just be able learn to respect and tolerate people. But I think the biggest thing here is, we have fear going on that Mr. Ashcroft is out there judging people, and that's actually quite clearly against Christian policy, but it's still a fear out there. And it's legitimate. I won't deny that.

But I think it is awesome that we actually have people out there that are organizing prayers. If they weren't, I would definitely -- I would have issues, I would have some questions, but I don't think -- I don't have fear that he is out there discriminating against people.

BATTISTA: All right. That's about it. We're already completely out of time here. I better not get Armstrong and Julianne...

WILLIAMS: The people have spoken!

(CROSSTALK)

MALVEAUX: No, but this is a private matter, this is a private matter! Pray at home, and not at work. At home, and not at work.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Thank you so much for being with us, as always. Thank you. We will see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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