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CNN Talkback Live

Is America Ready for Openly Gay Athletes?

Aired May 24, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Is homosexuality still way out of bounds in the world of professional team sports? The editor of "Out" magazine, the nation's largest circulation gay magazine, has got the sports world asking that question. In his letter from the editor, Brendan Lemon writes, "For the past year and a half, I've been having an affair with a pro baseball player from a Major League East Coast franchise; not his team's biggest star, but a very recognizable media figure all the same."

Lemon goes on to say, "I have spent many nights awakened by a 3:00 a.m. phone call after a West Coast game talking with this guy about his homosexuality and the way it affects his behavior toward his teammates. And I have concluded that coming out would, on balance, lesson his psychic burden."

Could this unnamed player come out and still stay in the game? And are we ready for openly gay athletes in the big leagues?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think America is really ready for that at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As long as they can win ball games and do what they need to do for the team, it doesn't matter what they do in their bedroom.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BATTISTA: Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. Well, that letter has created quite a stir on sports radio and the Internet, not the least of which is endless speculation on who the gay player is. At the center of this controversy is Brendan Lemon, "Out" magazine editor. Brendan joins us from Los Angeles.

And that may be true, Brendan. I know that was not the point of your letter, but it's an unfortunate byproduct, all that speculation. Why did you do this letter?

BRENDAN LEMON, "OUT" MAGAZINE: I think there are two reasons I did this. As I said in the letter in "OUT," the first reason was personal. I had been involved with this particular person in a relationship for over a year, and I was feeling a little frustrated at not being able to hang out with him in a manner that was more relaxed. The second reason was provocative. And I think provocative in a good sense. I wanted to be able to provoke people into thinking and talking about the issue of homophobia in pro team sports. Why is it that in the year 2001, we still don't have a climate in this country where a pro team sport player feels that he or she can come out of the closet and do so without fear?

BATTISTA: And this is all true, right, because there's also speculation out there that you made this up in order to get this dialogue going?

LEMON: Well, I mean, any speculation about a story like this is one that I understand and any skepticism as well. I'm a journalist and I have a skeptical streak, too, but I think the skepticism is misplaced here, because I've written about this in "Out" truthfully and have been speaking about it truthfully for the last week.

BATTISTA: All this speculation about who this mystery player might be, do you feel that that is doing him a disservice? Could that possibly harm him in some way, even though you're not identifying him?

LEMON: He's someone who knew I was writing about this and saw what I wrote before it came out. His main concern is winning games and performing well in the field. And that's been his concern for his whole career, and that's his career today as we speak. So I think unlike what some people think, which is since this article appeared, that he's been quaking in his boots in the dugout. In fact, he's been much more concerned to play well.

BATTISTA: What do you think would happen to him if he came out while he is still playing professional ball?

LEMON: Well, that is the great unknown, because no American pro team sport athlete has ever come out of the closet while he's still been involved in his career. So I think the only thing we do know is that there would be a lot of media attention on this person in terms of how this would affect his relationship with his fans, how it would affect his relationship with his fellow players, and how it would affect is relationship with the executives on his team is something we don't know. I think it's unfair to say it would all be negative, and I think it's also a little bit foolish to predict that it would all be positive as well.

BATTISTA: So how do you think that this would help him?

LEMON: Well, I think -- I know because I've been talking with him about this issue for more than a year -- that he would feel tremendously relieved in his personal life not to have to hide this part of his personal life, because I think this is someone who would like to do something like this in order to be, if you will, a kind of role model, particularly for gay kids who might be athletically talented and struggling with being gay and wants someone to look up to who is openly gay and succeeding in pro team sports.

BATTISTA: You know, at the same time, you also say in the letter that you wouldn't be surprised if somebody took a shot at him. I mean, a reaction could be almost that bad.

LEMON: Well, I don't want to overstate the case, but I do think that when you're playing in front of thousands and thousands of fans almost every day for six months of the year, that, you know, there always is going to be abuse. There's verbal abuse that outfielders go through all the time in their play, and there can potentially be more serious repercussions for the fans as well. But we don't know that either.

BATTISTA: What is he telling you about what he is going through on a day-to-day basis through the season? In other words, I think I always had the feeling that there may be guys on the team that are gay and the other team members kind of probably suspect maybe they're gay. But it's sort of like the military -- Don't ask, don't tell -- and they just kind of don't go there. Is that not the case?

LEMON: Well, I think this is someone who's been so deep in the closet for so long, and it becomes so second nature to him to hide the fact that he's gay that I don't think that part of it has really changed in the last week. I think this is someone who operates in addition to the tremendous stress of performing while on the field every day, another stress because he's in the closet and doesn't want to be.

BATTISTA: You also said in the article -- and some people might criticize you here for being selfish -- that you thought it would be better for you also if he came out.

LEMON: Well, I was very honest in the "Out" magazine article I think in saying that it would be easier for me if I could spent time with someone who's gay, who's well known and who's out of the closet. Some people think that's selfish, but I think that's honest. I think that's a fact.

BATTISTA: Some people might also say in reaction to that, though, that you know, you kind of knew what you were getting into when you -- you know, when you started dating a ballplayer knowing that this was the kind of life that he had to live.

LEMON: Sure, Bobbie. I think, though, that anybody who's ever been involved in a relationship with someone who comes with baggage knows that it's not always quite so easy to say to yourself, "Well, I'm only going to take the good things that come out of a relationship. I'm not going to take the challenges as well." Any relationship is made up of both. And in this instance, I chose to take on both.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here for some comments.

Ian (ph), go ahead.

IAN: I was just going to say, it shouldn't make a difference whether he's gay or not, what he does in the bedroom. What matters is talent. And I was thinking of two examples: Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. No one would care at all what they did in the privacy of their own home given their talent, given how superb they are. I think it's also important to note that those are two African-Americans. And just think, in America at the turn of the century, we wouldn't even conceive of having African-American superstars, and now it's accepted fact.

BATTISTA: And Jason (ph), you don't think that the world is quite ready yet?

JASON: Not at all. If Tiger or Michael was to come out tomorrow and say, you know, they were homosexual, it would be like professional suicide. Not saying that I would have a problem, but the country just doesn't seem like it would embrace it like it should, not denoting their skills, but you know, as far as endorsements. I think a lot of that would dry up, and you know, they could even get kicked out of the league. That's just how it seems to be.

BATTISTA: Could he pay that much of a price, do you think, Brendan?

LEMON: I think this is someone who's an established player, and I think this is someone who's a person of principle. And if he chose to come out while he was still playing, I think he would have done so with full knowledge of what the repercussions possibly might be to his career and to his livelihood.

BATTISTA: All right, Brendan Lemon, we thank you very much for joining us today. Appreciate your time.

We're going to take a break here, and when we come back, we will talk to Billy Bean. You may remember him, a former pro ball player who came out of the closet shortly after he finished playing the game.

Also, take part in our online viewer vote. Today's question: Are pro team sports ready for openly gay players? We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS ASKEW, ASSISTANT HOST (voice-over): Do you think America is ready for an openly gay athlete?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know if our society is ready to accept an openly gay athlete yet, but to myself, it would not matter if my favorite athlete was gay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the middle America is concerned, I'm not so sure they are, but me personally, I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that it would be OK. I do not discriminate against anyone that's gay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still believe that the majority of people are not ready for open-gay relationship and professional athlete even though it might exist already.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BATTISTA: Corey Johnson, captain of his Massachusetts high school football team, came out to his teammates two years ago. His teammates reacted with a show of support that included serenading him with "YMCA" by The Village People.

E-mails here. Michael in New York says: "There are many gay people in the public eye doing themselves and the gay and lesbian community a great disservice by staying in the closet."

Jim in California says, "This player could be the next Jackie Robinson."

Joining us now with some unique insight into the potential fallout facing an athlete who reveals he's gay, Billy Bean, a former Major League outfielder who hid his homosexuality for six seasons. Billy came out two years after his career end, and he joins us today from Miami.

From Los Angeles, Judy Wieder is with us. She's the editor-in- chief of the "Advocate" magazine.

Welcome to both of you.

Billy, let me start with you. What do you think of Brendan's idea? Well, first of all, the whole idea of this letter and in not, you know, identifying who this player is, but certainly starting this whole storm of speculation and the whole idea that we're ready for a professional player to come out?

BILLY BEAN, FORMER SAN DIEGO PADRE: Well, I think it's a lot for, you know, Mr. Lemon to think that this player -- or it's in the best interest of this player to come out, you know, at this time in his career. I think the real story would lie if he was the one who was doing it. And for him and his environment, the environment that he works in, he's obviously very comfortable with his sexuality and he's out and open.

And I think the gay and lesbian community should be very strong and supportive for people who are in that position. He can be a great role model as a writer, as someone who holds a, you know, a great career as an editor for a magazine. But until he has walked in the shoes of a professional athlete and lived in the environment of Major League clubhouse, I don't think that he can really conceptualize f what this player might be going through right now.

BATTISTA: Well, what is that environment, Billy? What did you go through?

BEAN: Well, it's just a matter -- first of all, it's business and it's not -- even different from the Corey Johnson experience where you're in your high school football team where it's about, you know, family and memories and things like that. This pro sport is -- you have front-office personnel, you have an owner, you have a general manager who's trying to put the best product on the field.

And all they're concerned about is winning games and being successful. And if a player's outside-the-line activity is going to be a deterrent from that, whether it's his sexuality or if it's a domestic problem, or it's a drinking problem, or he prefers to be a race car driver on days off, whatever it is, that's going to make them think twice about him and his involvement with the team.

BATTISTA: So you're saying that you felt that if you tried to come out when you were playing ball, you were just worried about the financial impact on the -- or you felt the team would be worried mainly about the financial impact? It's got to be more than that?

BEAN: Yes, it's absolutely more than that. I remember -- and I lived through this experience when I told my ex-wife about a year and a half after I separated from her and our divorce became final, the reason why I was unable to stay married, and it was the moment that I told her that, right then and there, I realized that I no longer had a secret in my own hands. So basically, it made me feel like my career was held in the balance of someone else. And I think this player, if it is indeed true, is walking in the same shoes.

What it does, Bobbie, is it changes the entire focus that you have or people look at you as an athlete. This player will no longer be judged by his batting average. He's going to be judged by who he hangs out with off the field, who he lives with, where he's going, who his parents are, you know, are they prominent? I mean, what if this person is supporting his, you know, his family, his parents, brothers and sisters? It's very common in pro sports right now.

And he's going to -- this revelation could have a major impact on his life. Maybe he hasn't even told his parents yet. You know, there's a lot of things being taken for granted, and I think out of respect to any individual, it has to be on their terms. And you know, as a member of the gay and lesbian community myself, we need to be supportive of people in that growth process, not pushing people to the edge of a cliff and telling them to talk or were pushing you over.

BATTISTA: Well, Judy, it would seem from everything Billy's talking about, this is an awful lot to ask of someone.

JUDY WIEDER, "THE ADVOCATE": Well, I'll tell you, as the leading gay and lesbian news magazine of record -- and you can see that this was Billy Bean's coming out cover story with the "Advocate." We have had almost 35 years of covering the closeted professional sport scene. And yes, I think that it's very true that it has to be a person's own decision. We don't want to out people; that's not what this is about.

This is about a real discussion that is much more than a guessing game of who is this person. This is about -- the heart of this issue is that there is and there are many gay professional athletes who have to live their lives with part of them in the closet, part of them not being able to discuss honestly who they are. This holds them back. They have to deal with this. And for many of us that know them, we have to wait for them, encourage them, talk to them. But, no, this is not about outing, and I don't think that's what Brendan did when he wrote this letter in the "Out" magazine.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly. Marilyn (ph), you have a question for Billy?

MARILYN: Billy, one question comes to mind. If we could pre- suppose that we could get pass the social, the moral, the ethical, everything and move into the logistical issues, if players openly did come out and express their sexuality, how would we deal with the locker room, for instance? Is it even possible to have a heterosexual, a homosexual section? In your mind, would that be necessary? I mean, how would we really deal with the real world moving forward?

BEAN: Well, I think you would have to treat each and every person with a little bit more confidence and realize that in a work environment, people have been sharing locker rooms in country clubs and in the office gymnasiums that are of diverse sexual orientation.

So it's not about what goes on in the clubhouse, what we said before. It's what goes on on the field. And that would be one of the mitigating factors. If a person couldn't control himself, I doubt that he would have been able to ascend to the level of Major League baseball. So it's not like you're asking a child to walk into an environment that he's unfamiliar with. It takes many years to get to that level. Talent, you know, brains, coordination, you know, smarts, common sense in all of that package, I doubt that there would be a fear that someone would be unable to control themselves in that environment.

BATTISTA: Billy, you mentioned a few moments ago that you were married earlier in your life. Was that a cover for you personally or professionally?

BEAN: Well, I did get married in an honest way. I thought that I had met the person I wanted to spend the rest my life with. I was one of those people who grew up in a very conservative environment. My stepfather was I former Marine, big family, went to church. It just wasn't something that was, you know, my level of consciousness at the time.

And it wasn't until I was about 27 years old that I started to realize that kind of the emotional turmoil that I had felt was kind of like an unhappiness or an emptiness was due to my sexual orientation. And I would never have gotten married had I known. And in fact, it did make it even -- the journey to where I am today that much more difficult.

And I'm on great terms with my ex-wife. And it was a long, long, you know, very difficult emotional trip for us. But we understand that, you know, we went into it as children. I was 23 years old when I got married and I was in the Major Leagues. I thought that I was on the path that I was supposed to be on.

BATTISTA: Karl (ph) in the audience, go ahead.

KARL: Yes, hi. It's interesting how people are making comments about the public and there's some difference between that and sort of the locker room (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But I think there is a big difference because I think in large part, the general public would be very accepting of a gay athlete, particularly, if he wasn't using it to his advantage or to gain somehow. But if he just came out and said, "Hey, you know, I'm here to play baseball 100 percent. But by the way, I am a homosexual."

I think generally, the American public would be accepting of that. I think the difficult part would be for that person to get along within his own team culture, within sort of that professional culture within the locker room and so on.

BATTISTA: Do you agree with that Billy or no?

BEAN: Well, let me just say this. Anyone who's been to a Major League baseball game, a college baseball game knows that part of the fan environment interaction of being on the road or at home is the fact that the home team fans hate the visiting team. You know, that's part of it. It has nothing to do with, you know, where you're born or who you're going home with at night. It's just their job as a fan.

So the infrastructure's already set up to jump down a player's throat, whether he strikes out, misses a ball, or does something wrong on the field. So the environment is already there, and the hook is there, you know. Most athletes would tell you they label us as quickly as possible, whether if we run funny, we have a swagger or we twirl the bat after we hit a home run. Or it's kind of the signature that most people have, and this person, because of the media interests that would be created overnight, would have obviously that label on his back and would have to be defending it all along.

And there would be zero focus on his athletic ability. And according to Mr. Lemon, this is a prominent player, if indeed it is true, who's been around and has established himself. And it would just change the dynamics of his career. And I think what it would do is really kind of deter other people who are in the same situation that might think, "Hey, you know, maybe we're ready."

Maybe it has to happen on the college baseball field for a while or more high school athletes. And as we grow, we've made tremendous progress in the last couple of years, the last decade. I think the worst thing that we could do is to go backwards over night.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here, and then we'll do e-mails, and phone calls, and the audience when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: The WNBA's Los Angeles Sparks held a preseason pep rally at Girl Bar, a lesbian dance club in West Hollywood. The Sparks' first home game scheduled for June 14 is designated Gay Pride Kickoff.

Couple of e-mails. Jason in North Carolina, says, "We're not giving the fans enough credit. I bet they would applaud a player for being brave enough to come out."

Donald in Virginia says, "Isn't it ironic that some sports fans have romanticized the whole professional sports groupie scene while they react negatively to a monogamous relationship between same sex athletes?

Bill (ph) on the phone in California, go ahead.

CALLER: Professional athletics are money-making operations. And any money-making operation, a business, doesn't go out to offend any of its market. It will be large numbers of people who are anti- homosexual who won't buy tickets anymore.

BATTISTA: All right, Bill, thanks very much.

Let me bring Matt Chernoff into the conversation. Matt's a radio talk show host here in Atlanta on WQXI sports radio, the Zone.

Matt, nice to see you. Do you agree it's all about money?

MATT CHERNOFF, WQXI RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: In some capacity, it is. For one thing, I agreed with Billy with a lot of what he said. We're going to see somebody come out if and when, and I don't think we will, because being in locker rooms, you see this a lot. How accepting your teammates are, one; how accepting the media is, two; how accepting fans are, No. 3, when it comes to endorsements and other things.

But the only time I think we're ever -- and this is a huge if -- see somebody come out is they're under a long-term contract, they just signed this, and they know their future financially is taken care, where they don't have to worry about...

There was an interview on our radio station with an umpire who umpired about 10 years and said, "You know what? I didn't come out till after I was already done, because he was outed a couple of years before he finishes up. And at that same time, now, Major League Baseball says, you know, what? He wasn't really doing the job as far as good umpire would. And they said -- and this was a quote to him -- "You are the third worst umpire in Major League Baseball." What about the first two umpires? They still have jobs.

Dave Pallone (ph) was the man's name. He wrote a bestselling book about it. He loses his job at the time. He goes on to sue Major League Baseball and settles out of court.

BATTISTA: He's -- we're going to hear Dave's own story in a few minutes, because he'll be with us today, also.

Billy, let me ask you quickly, what was the reaction when you revealed that you were gay? I realize you were not playing the game at the time, but nonetheless, I'm sure you kept in touch with teammates or fan reaction.

BEAN: Right. I was actually very, very surprised and grateful for my friends and the way that they reached out and some of the quotes that they even put in the newspaper, which is much -- has much more impact than a phone call. The phone calls were great for me, but to, you know, publicly come out in my defense, even though nobody was really ripping me, it was just a matter of saying, "Hey, I was just one of the guys."

I played 11 years, four years before that in college. And, you know, I am a baseball player. I'm an ex-baseball player now. I'm not defined 100 percent by my sexuality, by any, you know, way, shape, or form and it was just nice to be recognized that they looked at the me the same way as before. Which, I think, is the main goal for everyone in the gay and lesbian community: just to treated with the same rules and -- that everyone else is treated by, the content of your character.

CHERNOFF: I think Billy, and tell me if I was wrong, Eric Davis was another guy to come out and speak on a national syndicated radio and said, "You know what? If I'm in the shower" -- and this is a small portion of the athlete's day -- "and if I find out is that somebody else on our team happens to be gay, what does he think about it? How do I know he's not thinking about me in some sort of way."

And that's a small mindset, I know that's one guy, but I have to guess a lot of athletes share that same thought. And like I said, that's a small part of an athlete's day, what happens in a shower.

BEAN: Well let me just say for -- ever since I can remember being on a ball field, you know, the slang terms for being gay, you know, "homo" and "fag," and all those things that represent weakness and fear and shame, and I think it's just so ingrained in the athlete's mind, especially in a team sport because when someone falls down or drops the ball, it affects everybody. In an individual sport, nobody really cares if you screw up because it doesn't affect them.

So there's a lot of pressure to pull your own weight. And when -- when people feel that there's a weakness on their team, they want it eliminated. And, you know, I can't speak for Eric Davis,;I played against him for a long time, you know, a shower -- that environment, that's the most sensational thing that everybody wants to -- it's really the lowest common denominator.

CHERNOFF: And that's my point, Billy, you know that is the most sensational part of it. So what's happens when other players -- I was at Turner Field the day when this story comes out with "Out" magazine, and first thing you start hearing is "Pssst, who do you think it is?" You know, it's this guy, could be that guy. There were 10 different names thrown around from a potential story that's alleged out of "Out" magazine, and that's just the tip of iceberg.

BEAN: Right. And what it does -- that's the beginning. It's a great example of how this player would automatically be isolated -- you know, instantaneously, by the players, the media. You know, it's not -- it's like anything.

You turn on a television at 7:00 to watch the game, and the player just didn't zip up his uniform five minutes before the game and jump up with his bat. He's been there since about 12:00 in the afternoon, he's there two hours after the game is over. They spend about 10, 11, 12 hours a day in the clubhouse.

It really is a family, and it's something that, believe me, I'm not saying it's wrong to -- for this player, but for his own good and for the own environment in the time that we're in, in my opinion, I just think that he would be doing himself a disservice by putting himself in an environment that we're not ready to -- to leave alone.

BATTISTA: I got to go take a break here. In a few minutes, I will come back and do audience as soon as I can. And when we do come back, we'll also meet that former major league umpire who was outed by a boyfriend. He guesses about 20 percent of pro athletes are gay and in the closet. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: In 1975, three years after retiring from playing professional football, Dave Kopay became the first athlete from a major professional team to come out. Since then, only one other professional football player has come out: former New York Giant and Washington Redskins guard Roy Simmons made public that he is gay in 1992.

Let me go to the audience quickly here, Dan (ph), go ahead -- comment.

DAN: Yeah, one of the things I think would be very difficult would be the first one coming out and, kind of, the attention that would cause the team. There would be a lot of controversy; it might impact the way the team does that particular year, and that might be a big consideration in not being the first one to come out.

BATTISTA: Yeah, wouldn't want that responsibility.

Joining us now is Dave Pallone, a former major league umpire and author of the book, "Behind the Mask: My Double Life in Baseball." And he's with us today from Colorado Springs.

Dave, thank you for joining us.

DAVE PALLONE, FORMER UMPIRE: Hi, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: You had to be -- had to been one the first to of come out, I'm guessing, back in 19 -- what '88 or something? And it was involuntary, we should add.

PALLONE: It was definitely involuntary. I was outed by "The New York Post." There was a friend who just decided to make some money. And the unfortunate thing is that outing someone is nothing less that psychological rape, and that's what I went through. I was fortunate enough to be able to survive after the outing, but most people can't.

BATTISTA: I want to bring Judy back in quickly just to ask her about Brandan's letter one more time, because he surely must have known that the initial, and probably longest lasting reaction to this is are people trying to guess who it is.

WIEDER: Oh, absolutely. But that's really not the point. I think that's the sensational aspect of it that gets us all focused and has our undivided attention. But it's the discussion about this is that is so crucial. This is how we move things forward, this is how people pay attention to the problems, to the difficulties of coming out, to some ideas that we have about sports and who should play them and who shouldn't. This -- what's going on right now is going to move this forward.

BATTISTA: Well, Dave, do you think it's moved forward much from the time that you had your experience? I mean, do you think we're ready for that now?

PALLONE: There's no question that it's moved forward. I think Judy is right, that communication should be out there.

One of issues I definitely want to bring up is that I think most people look at people who happen to be gay as sexual beings, and not human beings. And that's why we have the big problem with today. If they would start listening to a person like myself or Billy Bean or Judy and look at us as human beings and not that sexual being because of our sexual orientation, I think a lot of the walls of fear would come right down and we wouldn't have problems as we do in society today.

CHERNOFF: Well, the one thing, Dave, and I think you'll agree with me that I disagree about "Out" magazine: This is more about "Out" magazine, in my opinion, putting this out there. This is alleged, right now, if the baseball player comes out with this as well, whose right of it is "Out" magazine or anybody for that matter.

And Dave went through this himself: He didn't come out voluntarily, it was forced out of him. If this baseball player wants to come out. Like I said, we've been guessing now, everybody -- it's human nature -- for two weeks: is it this so and so? Is it him? We've heard clues.

And that's what they want to do. Right now TALKBACK LIVE, sports radio programs, newspapers are saying -- in "Out" magazine they're getting the "pub," they're getting the talk right now because they put this little -- this little -- I don't even know what to call it out there. Just -- it's almost a rumor right now because we don't know if this is true or not.

"Alleged" has to go in front of this at every single sentence because this is somebody saying, "We might -- there might be an affair that took place in Major League Baseball."

BATTISTA: But do you agree that the resulting dialogue is productive?

CHERNOFF: Yes, it is productive, but should it have come from that? I agree that it is productive in Major League Baseball and professional sports. It's productive that we get to that point, but how we got there, is this the right way to get there?

PALLONE: Bobbie, I don't think that "Out" magazine was looking for the publicity. However, I do want to say that I have -- I don't like the fact that we have to speculate on who the player is. That's not fair to any of the players who -- anyone who is speculating. Whenever I speak about the subject I try not to let people speculate on whom I think might be gay.

And the other issue is, is that in some way I don't feel it was right for Brendan to say that it would easier for him if this player were to come out, because Brendan has a choice. He has a choice of not dating this person and make his life a lot easier, just like what I did. I had to keep my secrets and I kept them secret and if I didn't want to have these secrets I would have come out.

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call quickly from Robert (ph) in Delaware. Go ahead, Robert.

CALLER: Hi, Bobbie. Thank you for having me on. I came out when I was 14 years old. I'm 17 now. And I came out to a group of athletes, actually members of our varsity basketball team. And thus far in the three years that I've been out to my high school, of a population of 2,000, I've been nominated prom king. I have a multifaceted group of fans -- or friends, rather.

BATTISTA: What was the reaction when you first let everybody know, Robert?

CALLER: Well, when I first came out, it was kind of funny. People were like, you know, you are Robert. You know, we have known you since kindergarten. Or you know, we have known you for so long. You are still the same person. This is only a small aspect of the athlete's life, and he shouldn't or they shouldn't be hiding who they truly are. They should be able to be who they want to be.

I aspire to be a U.S. senator one day and -- from Delaware -- and I probably will probably be a gay Republican senator.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: OK, Robert, thanks very much for calling. Best of luck to you.

PALLONE: That is definitely an oxymoron: being a Republican and being gay.

BEAN: I think that this is a great example of when we talk about the progress that we have made, when you see young kids in high school feeling comfortable and the environment at that age group that he feels that he can be successful and accepted as just a regular kid, which is all he really is. But it's changing, you know, at the higher levels in business and millions and millions of dollars that we have to be a little bit more sensitive to.

(AUDIO GAP)

CHERNOFF: ... 14-year-old who's got to deal with his classmates and the rest of anybody in that community. This is on a worldwide scale as being introduced as the gay athlete.

PALLONE: And it's also communication. That's what makes this whole thing being able to talk about this subject and not having it in a closet. BATTISTA: We'll take a break -- oh, I'm sorry Judy.

WIEDER: And this was going on -- this was going on before Brendan's letter. All that's happened is, now we're discussing it, and that is what this is about.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break. We will be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Eric (ph) in West Virginia says, "I we're going to call athletes professionals, then they should act professional and deal with the fact that they are now and have always been showering with gay of lesbian teammates."

Darrell (ph) in Oregon says, "It's very wrong for someone to out someone else. I don't see how this would help the cause. This is a desperate and selfish attempt to gain acceptance by saying, 'See, he is one too.'"

To the audience, quickly, back to Carl (ph).

CARL: What I was going to say is I think, people bring up that there's a lot of national implications and bringing up the fact that baseball is essentially a professional organization, that, you know, they're looking at the bottom line, which is making money. But baseball in particular has undergone a lot of crisis, whether it's strikes of recent, public outcries over what might be exorbitant pay, gambling, what have you, betting on baseball.

BATTISTA: You know what, one of the things -- we do have openly gay athletes in sports. I mean, you know there's Martina in tennis and Greg Louganis. He did lose endorsements as I recall.

CHERNOFF: Sure. And that's another portion of it.

BATTISTA: But those are individual sports, although tennis can be a team sport at times. But I mean, why is it such a big deal, you know, with football, baseball, basketball?

CHERNOFF: Because we talk about masculine sports, and that's the best way I can put it. A football player, a baseball player, a basketball player, for anybody who's ever seen a behind the scenes of a locker room, it's a very different environment.

And I think Eric Davis, and I just keep pointing this because he publicly came out and made the statement, hey, I'm in the shower, and I don't want to blow this out of proportion, but I'm in the shower, how do I know another guy is not thinking about -- looking at me, thinking in a different way. And That's a small, small portion of what goes on in the locker room. When you're not accepted by your teammates that's a big problem.

PALLONE: Bobbie, I think one thing though that I think Matt doesn't realize and Billy can speak to this if Billy's still here, I can's see what is going on there, but one of the things that I think -- people don't realize that homophobia is really not on the field itself. It's mostly up in the higher echelon of the game of baseball -- the owners.

They're the old-time guys that have been around for ever. And there's where the homophobia is, it's not basically on the field. Certainly there's going to be bigots. There'll be bigots for the rest of time, but the majority of the players don't really care. They care about winning.

BEAN: Let me give you a example, Bobbie. If the general manager of a team during a draft had two players that they really, really felt would make a major impact and they were ready to give them money and sign them to a contract and they knew that one of them was gay, I guarantee you that they would take the one who was not, just because it's an added variable to outside behavior.

And they are trying to sell a package and in a team sport a player is a chain -- a link in a chain. And you know, what they consider a weakness if they are drawing distraction, maybe their best pitcher is someone who is completely homophobic and they just put up with it because he wins 25 games a year. You are not going to take him off the team because his social views are not up to standard in the year 2001.

There's a lot of things they do and let it pass by if you're successful. So it's a matter of making -- it's like a family or a business. Everything has to work together. And from the higher levels if they think that, you know, this could be a possible distraction they're just going to try to eliminate it.

PALLONE: Billy, don't you agree if a player hit 50 home runs or did get the 25 wins you're talking about and happened to be gay as well, don't you think the team would keep him as well?

BEAN: Yes, absolutely. Because there's one or two players, or a handful of players in the major leagues that are capable of doing that, so you're talking about a superstar.

I'm talking about an average environment where they want mainstream acceptance. Sure, if Pedro Martinez comes out tomorrow, the Boston Red Sox are not going to release him. He's the best pitcher, you know, possibly the best pitcher in baseball. That's an extreme. That's why I think a player would have to feel that confident in his ability, plus be a tremendous player, to make the package work right now.

CHERNOFF: And on that same note, think about making the run. If it was Mark McGwire, think about what happened to Hank Aaron, the letters he received, the death threats. If a gay athlete is the guy who's trying to break a record, what's going to happen to his life?

BATTISTA: Have to take a break. I have to take a break here. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me take Andy on the phone in California. Andy, go ahead.

CALLER: Yes, hi, Bobbie. Thanks for having me on. I think that unfortunately, it is professional suicide, as Mr. Bean, I think, said. And unfortunately, adolescent males in the military and adolescent males in baseball are very similar in their cultures.

BATTISTA: That's true.

CALLER: And I think that...

BATTISTA: That's true, which is why I had asked earlier whether or not it was kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of culture in baseball.

CHERNOFF: You know, what I think, and Dave can back me up as well, and maybe Billy -- guys know for some. Some guys know who else in the clubhouse happens to be gay, happens to have this sexual orientation. And if it's not about sexual orientation, happens to have habits, whether it's drugs or other things. These guys know within themselves. So there'll be some guys who will be shocked, and some guys will come out and make statements. But I have the feeling, and I think Billy and Dave can speak on this more than I can, guys know what goes on inside that clubhouse, and know each individual.

BEAN: The difference between rumor and public acknowledgement is two very large things, because, believe me, for 2 1/2, 3 years, I was living in Miami. where I wasn't denying my sexuality or my private life. But the minute that I did a little story about a restaurant of mine, it became front-page news on "The New York Times," from a player three years removed. So -- and let me tell you just quickly, too, two examples of how fans can be very fickle. In -- before the 2000 major league...

BATTISTA: I've got -- you know what, I'm sorry, Billy. I've got to cut you off. I'm completely out of time, but thanks so much for coming in today. We appreciate it. And Dave Pallone, as well. Matt Chernoff, Judy, we thank you very much. We appreciate it.

And we have to go. We're way out of time, but thanks for watching. Tomorrow's "Free-For-All Friday." Join us then.

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