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CNN Talkback Live
Should "Pearl Harbor" be Historically Accurate?
Aired May 25, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Pearl Harbor" has not been covered like it's been covered in this movie, ever before.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People going to the movie will come out thinking they know what happened at Pearl Harbor, and they really won't.
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SEN. JAMES JEFFORDS (R), VERMONT: I have changed my party label, but I have not changed my beliefs.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We didn't know that he was feeling the depth that he clearly was. It's a loss, and we wish it hadn't happened.
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REV. AL SHARPTON: There's no doubt in my mind that I could be the president of the United States and make America much more proud.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: President Al Sharpton.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will never happen.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody has an opinion in this one, whether you're for Rudy, Donna, Judi or the dog.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The media now has an absolute feeding frenzy on this. They are like vultures and buzzards perched there at Gracie Mansion.
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BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: You got something to say? It's Free-For- All Friday.
Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Free-For-All Friday. Please don't load that up station wagon just yet because we have a lot to talk about. Joining us from Miami is radio host Flo Anthony, whose syndicated show airs on the Jones Radio Network.
Flo, Good to see you.
FLO ANTHONY, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Bobbie, how are you?
BATTISTA: Good, thanks. From Detroit, Ed Tyll, whose radio talk show is nationally syndicated by Fisher Entertainment -- Ed.
ED TYLL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Great to see you guys here today.
BATTISTA: Representing the West Coast, Paul McGuire, radio talk show host from KBRT.
Good to see you too, Paul.
PAUL MCGUIRE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Bobbie. How are you doing?
BATTISTA: Good, thanks. And back on the East Coast, Carl Limbaucher of newsmax.com. He joins us from New York today.
Carl, thank you.
CARL LIMBAUCHER, NEWSMAX.COM: Hi, Bobbie, thanks for having me on.
BATTISTA: All right, as we head into the Memorial Day weekend, the long anticipated movie "Pearl Harbor" opens today. The reviews are rolling in. And I've got to say, they are giving new meaning to the word bomb.
One objection deals with the seeming lack of historical accuracy in the movie. As "The Wall Street Journal" says -- quote -- "It is a blame-free, nobody-is-right-or-wrong portrayal of Japan's sneak attack." Do you have any problems with that, Paul?
MCGUIRE: Absolutely, because the movie obscures the historical truth. There was tremendous controversy. Did FDR know about the attack beforehand? And the director, Michael Bay, just gave it a clean sweep. He ignored history when he made the film.
BATTISTA: Well he was quoted as saying that this movie is not a history lesson. So why set it during Pearl Harbor? I don't get that.
MCGUIRE: That's exactly right. I mean, if it's not a history lesson, why do a movie on Pearl Harbor?
FLO ANTHONY: I spoke with Guy Torry the other day, who plays Cuba's Gooding's best friend in the movie -- and I feel at a loss because I haven't seen the film yet -- but what I understand from talking with Guy, I think we are dealing more with individuals and things that are going on around their lives during the sneak attack and during the war, more so than the attack itself.
TYLL: Well, I think we also have to take into account that if you want to have a blockbuster film be accepted all over the world, you are going to have to pass it through the filter of politically correct. It sounds -- that is the tragedy of "Pearl Harbor" the film, that it really can't tell the whole truth and be a successful proposition at the movie theater.
BATTISTA: Well, and they're going to go farther than that as I understand it, when it does show overseas, they will be deleting certain speeches, certain racist references to Japanese people. These will be taken out even more.
TYLL: Exactly. The German and Japanese versions of the film are going to be edited to the sensibilities of the people who are going to attend the film. So, as you can hear, we are drifting farther and farther away from the root story, which everybody knows is a very brutal and tragic one.
BATTISTA: But we also know, Carl, we also know that a story of this magnitude and from this historical time can be told. It can be told accurately. It can be told accurately, it can be told well, and it can still play around the world. I mean Steven Spielberg did it with "Saving Private Ryan".
MCGUIRE: That was based on historical truth. This particular film is fairy tale which ignores the deeper issues regarding Pearl Harbor.
LIMBAUCHER: Also true you've got aspects of the historical record apparently are omitted such as the Japanese brutality during the occupation of Manchuria, the rape of Nanking. While I understand -- because I haven't seen it yet myself -- that there is some discussions, some mention of the U.S. oil embargo against Japan, almost a seeming justification of the Pearl Harbor attack.
I think you run the risk of doing the same thing that Oliver Stone did with JFK, where you have generations of people who weren't alive at the time the actual event took place getting their history lesson, regardless of what the directors and producers say from what appears on the screen. We will see what the reaction is, but if they distorted history too much I hope it isn't the big hit they expect.
TYLL: Sounds like we're trying to reconcile film making and history telling. The business of making a successful film is one thing. The job of telling the truth about what happened in American history I don't think really falls to the filmmaker. It is nice when it can happen and when it works. But let's remember, these are two separate tasks, one is making a movie, the other one is recounting history.
ANTHONY: I'm in total agreement there. I mean, a history lesson has to be caught in class, not at a film or at a movie theater.
MCGUIRE: I don't agree with that because good art is based on truth, and good art expounds truth. Superficial art...
ANTHONY: Not always.
MCGUIRE: Yes, always. Good art brings about truth. Superficial art obscures the truth. What we are basically seeing is a glossing over of the historical truth, which diminishes its entertainment value.
TYLL: I don't think there's any connection between accurate history and stimulating art. It is nice when the marriage occurs...
(CROSSTALK)
LIMBAUCHER: Would it be all right "Pearl Harbor" was about the American attack on the Japanese, which would be a total perversion of the historical record? Nobody would countenance that.
TYLL: Well I just think they're two separate things.
BATTISTA: By the way, while we're talking about this, our question on the poll today is should "Pearl Harbor" the movie, be historically accurate. So go online and vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL key word is CNN. Let me go to the audience quickly to get some feedback on this even though none of us have seen the movie yet, but Adam, go ahead.
ADAM: Well, I think what's interesting is a lot of people are comparing this movie to Spielberg's "Saving Private Ryan." And I knew right from the beginning when you saw the previews for this film, this is the first major movie been made about Pearl Harbor, but you know, this is by Bruckheimer and he makes action movies. You know, Spielberg makes more...
BATTISTA: That was your first clue.
ADAM: And Spielberg makes more, he makes epic type films, probably more rooted in historic fact. And it is kind of sad that, I think there are going to be a lot of people who watch this movie and this is the only knowledge they have of Pearl Harbor, and they probably come away with a pretty tainted view of what actually occurred.
BATTISTA: Well, and as I was saying earlier, I just think out of respect to the vets that are still alive from World War II and their families that I would rather see a Spielberg treatment of this. I think it's disrespectful.
TYLL: And how many of those veterans are going to chuckle at the idea that a film could tell their story, or could tell the story of that war or that episode? I think they'd laugh it off. I think they would look at history in one place and film somewhere else.
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: I mean, I am a daughter of a World War II, that was a disabled veteran that was a disabled veteran, so I mean, it's not -- as I said I'm at a loss because I haven't seen it yet, but it's not affecting me that strongly.
BATTISTA: Let me take...
LIMBAUCHER: Many veterans were very approving of the "Private Ryan" treatment. They felt it was historically accurate to a certain extent, and they much appreciated having their side of the story told. That remains to be seen whether "Pearl Harbor" does that for the people who made the sacrifices on that side of the war.
BATTISTA: Kate, on the phone. Let me go to Freeman in the audience first who is a World War II vet.
FREEMAN: Yes, well I didn't serve in Japan, or in the Pacific, I served in Europe. I saw "Private Ryan," I haven't seen this. I think that what we are talking about, from what I've heard is that we've got a love story that's trying to be historical, and I think that if we use it as a love story that relates to Pearl Harbor, then what we've done is, OK, but then work on the language, you know that we've talked about.
But I think that in most cases, if you're trying to work on a historical movie, you need to stick to the history and then let the other part kind of, flow into it. I guess what I'm saying is that, I haven't seen it, so I don't know.
BATTISTA: Well, I'm warning all the Bruckheimer fans out there, you have to sit through supposedly an hour and a half of a love story before you even see the first thing blow up, so -- just a warning.
TYLL: We're also told we'll get an hour's worth of things blowing up. So there will be something else in it for those people.
BATTISTA: I thought it was only 35 minutes, but anyway.
ANTHONY: I'm for the love story part of it.
BATTISTA: OK. Kate on the phone in Oregon. Go ahead, Kate.
KATE: Hi, I just think it is absurd. I've heard the buzz about the concern about backlash against Japanese Americans with this, and I find it laughable. And the guy says, you know, a lot of people are getting their information on Pearl Harbor from this movie. Whose problem is that, man? I know the story. That's my comment.
BATTISTA: Is there talk up there that there is going to be a backlash against Japanese-Americans? I haven't heard that.
MCGUIRE: Well, let's go back to Steven Spielberg's movie "Private Ryan." The Reason "Private Ryan" had so much power and respect it was because it was based on historical integrity. When you depart from historical integrity or truth, you end up with a fictionalized cartoon story, and that kind of movie won't have legs.
LIMBAUCHER: I think they also have a problem, to the extent they are attempting to mimic the success of "Titanic" here, which, of course, was a major historical episode, but didn't have any real political overtones. Here you've got potential controversy with the distortions of history that do have political implications, and they are going to have to tread more carefully. It just cannot be a love story with...
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BATTISTA: That's our bell, gang. Sorry to wake you up there. We are going to move on from this. None of us have seen the movie, so we will regroup and talk about it after some of us have. Round two: a New York paper called him "Benedict Jeffords." Did the Vermont senator betray the GOP, and does this mean war on Capitol Hill? Stay with us, we'll be back.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: If your senator have switched party affiliations like that midstream, how would you respond to that?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd be very upset about that, and rethink if I would ever vote for him again.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can understand why someone would change their mind about something like that.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think that's a fair for thing for them to do. People have elected them under one party affiliation, and they should stick with that, at least until the end of their term.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would be all for everybody being independent. That way, you'd get rid of the bipartisanship and all the hassle between passing laws.
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BATTISTA: We knew what he meant there. Al. right, time for round two. Who doesn't know by now that Senator Jim Jeffords of Vermont has decided to leave the GOP to become an independent? I imagine that's quite an issue for our two conservative hosts.
Carl, did he betray the GOP, in your mind?
LIMBAUCHER: I think, and I have some sources in Vermont who confirm this, that many Republicans on the ground there that feel betrayed, people who worked long and hard through a number of Jeffords campaigns, and people who expected -- I mean, he was elected six months ago. This is a six-year term. It would be one thing if this was year five or year six of his term, where he was going to stand before the people of Vermont again soon.
That's not the case. Basically, he took the money and ran here, and people have a right to be angry, including Don Nickles, Senate majority whip, who I understand, directed $10,000 of his own campaign cash into a Jeffords campaign coffers.
BATTISTA: I've got a lot of independent voters, though, put their money behind him, too. And of course, he's been in office forever up there in Vermont, so they pretty much know the man, don't they?
TYLL: Well, not only that. Let's talk about the priorities of being an elected official. Let's hope that the senator put the country first, put the people of his state second, and then everybody could argue over party loyalty as a third, a fourth or a fifth priority.
He's also a public servant with a lifetime of service. The people of Vermont know him, they know what his values are. He claims that this was over principle and values, that it wasn't a petty scuffle inside of a political party. That sounds very refreshing to me, that principle comes first, people come, and then we think about the party later on.
MCGUIRE: Well, basically, that's an Orwellian spin on a man who was completely disloyal, was the Benedict Arnold of his party, betrayed the voters of Vermont...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRE: ... seduced by the Democrats for having a chairmanship, so let's not portray him...
(CROSSTALK)
TYLL: That's such a horrible way to talk about a gentleman who served all his life the people of Vermont.
LIMBAUCHER: This veneer of nobility and principle...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRE: ... appreciate his leadership, and yet you can call him Benedict Arnold...
BATTISTA: Well, why is that that we...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Was it a matter of principle or nobility when Ben Nighthorse Campbell switched from the Democratic to the Republican Party? Or was he defecting on a...
(CROSSTALK)
LIMBAUCHER: Well, he didn't shift the entire balance of power in Washington, but I've got stop here and talk about Jeffords as a man of principle and nobility. Here is a guy who voted against -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) party voted against the confirmation of Clarence Thomas, He had voted not to -- voted to acquit President Clinton on far worse charges during the impeachment trial.
Here is a guy who went on a local radio station -- we've reprised this today on Newsmax.com, if anybody wants to see the transcript -- and called the alleged rape of Juanita Broderick by Clinton a private matter. That sounds like principle and conscience to you folks out there?
TYLL: It just sounds like there is a group now who would like to diminish this man, diminish his achievements because he's upset you all. He has made a statement of principle. You don't have to agree with it, but I think John McCain's warning...
MCGUIRE: What's the principle?
TYLL: ... John McCain's warning to the Republican Party was accurate.
MCGUIRE: He ran as a Republican and became an independent, that's not...
TYLL: The Republican Party has to grow up. It can't act as if this was a petulant child. This is a lifelong public servant.
MCGUIRE: It makes a beautiful sound bite, but it's not based in reality.
ANTHONY: It is based in reality, and I don't think that him switching to the independent party is going to change his policies any at all. The man has been one way for a very long time, and he's been in office up there forever. I think he will still serve the people the same way that he did before, just from a different party.
BATTISTA: Let me go...
TYLL: I notice none of my colleague have pointed out the leadership, or the lack thereof, in the titular head of the Republican Party, the nation's leader, didn't seem to have much impact on Mr. Jeffords. They certainly had enough private time with him, they were certainly aware of his concern, and they were aware of his history of principle and his fidelity to his principle. So, it was the leader of the party...
LIMBAUCHER: Maybe because he had -- nothing they said would have made any difference. You know, it's long been...
TYLL: It's a very convenient presumption, isn't it?
LIMBAUCHER: ... known in Vermont that Jeffords...
TYLL: That's a very convenient presumption.
LIMBAUCHER: No, hear me out here. It has long been known in Vermont...
TYLL: I mean, you presume that the man wouldn't be satisfied.
LIMBAUCHER: ... that Jeffords long wanted to be the state's governor. Now, it's said that he cannot be elected Vermont's governor as a Republican, and therefore, jumping ship on the GOP opens that door for him. In fact, some folks are telling me that there may be a quiet little deal behind-the-scenes between the Democratic Governor Howard Dean and Mr. Jeffords to pull a little switcheroo there.
TYLL: Well, that's pretty good, because the White House started that yesterday. Karl Rove, Karen Hughes -- everybody who could get a microphone in front of them...
LIMBAUCHER: I heard that the day before the White House started that.
MCGUIRE: How can you portray Jeffords as a man of character when he betrayed the people of the state Vermont?
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: He has not betrayed the people of the state of Vermont.
MCGUIRE: Sure, he did. If you vote for a man that's a Republican and then he wakes up and he becomes an independent, he betrayed the people that put him in office. Let's get real.
BATTISTA: Well, I guess we won't know that until he runs again.
TYLL: I think that it's quite unrealistic to believe that party fidelity is the way any public servant is measured. That may be your criteria, but I wouldn't presume the people of Vermont feel that way.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly here, guys.
MCGUIRE: People vote for people when they represent themselves a certain way. If I go to a shoe store and I buy a pair of Nikes and I end up with a pair of Reeboks, I got the switcheroo. The people of Vermont voted for a Republican, now they have an independent. That's switcheroo.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BATTISTA: Maybe they like Reeboks, too.
LIMBAUCHER: This puts in serious jeopardy the vital economic interests of that state, vis-a-vis the northeastern dairy compact.
TYLL: The people of New York state voted both Governor Rockefeller, a liberal Republican, and Governor Pataki, both in my lifetime. I think the public gets it. I think the issues that these campaigns turn on...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Let me get the audience in here quickly, guys. Jennifer, go ahead. What do you think?
JENNIFER: Yes, I'm a voting citizen, and when I actually registered to vote I did not -- I decided not to select a party, because I do not believe in a label of a Democrat and Republican or independent. When you go and place a vote in America, I feel that you have to know the person that you're voting for and the issues that are at hand. Because a person, like, for example, Zell Miller is a Democrat and he does not always vote democratically. He votes mostly Republican.
TYLL: Right.
JENNIFER: So that means that you would have to know the person that you're voting for, and what issues that they fight for, and what issues that -- how they would vote on certain issues.
BATTISTA: And let me go to Jamie, here.
JAMIE: I don't think there was anything principled about Jeffords decision. I think it was political opportunism. He waited until he knew his decision would tip the balance of the Senate into the control of the Democrat. If he really felt this way, why didn't he switch parties in '94 after the Republicans won on the Contract with America? Certainly, he didn't agree with any of that, and that's when Senator Shelby of Alabama switched parties from Democrat to Republican, realizing that his views were more in line with the Republicans. At that time, Jeffords views were the same, they were more in line with the Democrats. I don't know why he didn't switch parties then.
TYLL: Do we have to pigeonhole every public servant into these descriptions? The point I was making about Pataki was he's a conservative and Rockefeller was a liberal. They were both Republicans. They were both duly elected, and I don't think the people of New York, in choosing either of them, was confused or misled.
LIMBAUCHER: There's a lot of reasons, though, to admire Governor Pataki, but his staunch conservatism isn't one of them. He's pro- choice, he's been a relatively big spender in this state. And to pretend he's some sort of Jesse Helms is just not accurate.
BATTISTA: Phone call from Carol in New Jersey. Go ahead, Carol.
CALLER: Yes, hi. I'm glad to see that there's a politician in Washington that's for the American people and not for the party. And I also feel that he may have betrayed the GOP, but he didn't betray the American people.
(BELL RINGING)
BATTISTA: Saved by the bell there.
Couple of e-mails: "Yesterday I saw a senator become more powerful than a president. Senator Jeffords, I salute you," from Deborah in Virginia.
Gene in Alabama says: why don't all Republicans switch from Republican to independent? That would allow them to be in control of Congress again."
(LAUGHTER)
BATTISTA: All right. Enough about Jim Jeffords. In round three: Can you ever imagine calling Al Sharpton Mr. President? We'll be back after the break.
(voice-over): Moderates from the GOP, sometimes known as "Aiken Republicans" have a history of success in Vermont. Republican Senator George Aiken served from 1941 to 1975. He drew national attention by challenging America's participation in the Vietnam War.
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BATTISTA: Round three: Believe it. Al Sharpton wants to be your president. And Flo is about ready to vote for him, I think. Why is he the man?
ANTHONY: First of all, he and his wife are very good friends of mine. And through the years, he's been someone who's supported me a lot. When I've had problems, I've had to call him, and ask him to call people to put them into check. So I think that he is really a voice for African-American people in this country, and I think can he make as good of a president as anybody else out there.
TYLL: Well, of course, doing the job and getting elected are two different things. With the bedrock of national support that the reverend has in some communities, I'm sure he would make for a very interesting beginning of the primary season. But let's be realistic. Is he electable? Probably, you would have to prove a little bit more to have that happen, but he will create dialogue, he will raise issues that other candidates will have to address because they will resonate with people.
BATTISTA: He does come with a bit of baggage, not the least of which is that experience with Tawana Brawley. Right, Carl?
LIMBAUCHER: Well, there's a lot of things that his opponents, I expect, in the primary issues to raise from his history in New York. Using language like describing Jews as diamond merchants, and calling gays -- he referred to "Greek homos" in one speech. So Mr. Sharpton does come with a lot of baggage.
But it's interesting, you know, you go back to his history in just last year's presidential election, I think this is Reverend Al's attempt to claim his slice of the pie on behalf of the African- American community. He was very dissatisfied with this election of Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman as Gore's running mate. In fact, he called it political racial profiling. I think Reverend Al may be just attempting to set himself up as the Jesse Jackson nightmare that the Democrats had to live with throughout the 1980s .
ANTHONY: Why would you call that the Jesse Jackson nightmare during the 1980s? I feel that was a very exciting time for African- Americans.
LIMBAUCHER: No, it was, but for Democrats, it was a time absent of any presidential victories.
BATTISTA: But he would appear to be sort of dethroning Jesse Jackson as the voice for the African-American people, but, Flo, we've had this discussion several times on the show. Do African Americans in this country need one voice? Is that even appropriate anymore?
ANTHONY: Well, I don't think that we need one voice, but we certainly need voices. And we need people like Reverend Sharpton that are going to speak up. We need people like Reverend Jackson or any other -- Congressman Rangel -- any other people that do speak up, and that you can go to sleep at night and feel comfortable that racism in this country is not going to affect your life and stop you from progressing.
BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience -- Mark.
MARK: Yes, well, I don't think Mr. Sharpton has the experience to be president, but then again, I don't think our current president had the experience before he got in office. And at least Mr. Sharpton, I think, will work a full day.
(LAUGHTER)
ANTHONY: He works overtime.
BATTISTA: Donald in California on the phone -- Donald.
CALLER: Yes. I was asked by your man why my being white would make a difference if I -- me voting for Al Sharpton. It's because I still see very much racism in this country, and I think he's a good man. And if he's running against Bush, I would definitely vote for Al Sharpton.
BATTISTA: All right.
MCGUIRE: Al Sharpton is a political opportunist who has seen that Jesse Jackson is damaged because of Jesse Jackson's love child, and Al Sharpton is moving in for the kill.
ANTHONY: Don't even go there. He's not a political opportunist.
TYLL: Amazing descriptions of hard-working public figures. I just marvel at all of this armchair psychiatry.
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: I just need to back you up for a moment.
MCGUIRE: You're going to tell me that Al Sharpton is a hard- working public figure?
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: Time out. I want to back you up with that. He has not seen any damage happen to Jesse Jackson. Now, these are two men who work very closely together. Reverend Sharpton...
LIMBAUCHER: You deny there's a rivalry between Jackson and Sharpton?
ANTHONY: They're very, very close. So he's not trying to take advantage of that.
MCGUIRE: Oh, really.
ANTHONY: He honestly believes -- oh, yes, really.
MCGUIRE: Really.
ANTHONY: Now, we've sat up here and listened to you all the time. Just for once...
LIMBAUCHER: There's no rivalry between the two.
ANTHONY: No. Pardon?
TYLL: Is that rivalry or competition important to you? You seem to be very interested in it.
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: There's no rivalry. They're best friends. The only rivalry is Reverend Jackson constantly tries to get Reverend Sharpton on a treadmill. I mean, they laugh about exercise. These guys are like this.
BATTISTA: Let me go to Doug in the audience.
DOUG: Well, I just think you have to ask what he's really doing. Is Al Sharpton running for president or is he just running for publicity? I mean, does he just want to get his agenda on the table? I don't think anyone thinks he's a serious candidate for president, but certainly going to get his agenda to table.
ANTHONY: He might fool you...
BATTISTA: You know, you're right, and that's not a bad thing. That's certainly not a bad thing. But could he end up being, you know, the Ralph Nader of the next election? Could he end up being some sort of spoiler?
ANTHONY: Yes.
LIMBAUCHER: Oh, absolutely. African-Americans were crucial to the Gore campaign. They are responsible for the fact that Gore won more popular votes than George Bush, unquestionably. The Florida turnout is ample testimony to that. And as I said earlier, I think Sharpton was very disappointed in the treatment that Sharpton and Maxine Waters out in -- very disappointed at the treatment of African- Americans.
(BELL RINGING)
BATTISTA: Jerry in the audience, you get the last word.
JERRY: Yes, I just want to say that I give Al Sharpton a lot of credit because he held the city of New York together during the Louima and the Diallo cases. I mean, that city was under a lot of pressure with those situations, and that man is almost solely responsible for holding that city together. And I think he could do a great job for this country if he was elected president.
MCGUIRE: We're going to give Al Sharpton credit for holding New York City together --- please.
(LAUGHTER)
ANTHONY: You weren't supposed to get the last word. The audience was.
BATTISTA: All right. We're moving on. We'll continue to hang around New York for the next round. Do you think Rudy Giuliani should have to see his girlfriend someplace other than Gracie Mansion? Apparently he is, by the way, and Flo will explain that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: OK, round four. Rudy wants her in, Donna wants her out, but it doesn't look like the mayor's girlfriend will be seen at Gracie Mansion anytime soon. But that might not matter anymore, Flo. Apparently, you say that the mayor has kind of moved out himself?
ANTHONY: Yeah, some of those spies of mind say that the mayor checked into a midtown hotel on Wednesday night. So he's not staying at Gracie Mansion anymore. Now, the word before was he was staying in a guest room anyway when he was there. But now it looks like he's moved out. So the taxpayers of New York might just be paying for Donna and the kids.
Now, I live on Easton Avenue in the block down from Gracie Mansion, and people in the neighborhood don't really think he's been there for some time.
BATTISTA: Ah! And Donna is there with the kids? Is that a fact also?
ANTHONY: That's what I've been told, that she is there with the children, yes.
BATTISTA: So what are they thinking in New York, Ed? I mean, what's going on with this?
TYLL: Who could believe that these two would ever wind up on the cover of "Parenting" magazine? Taking your personal life, making it public. I guess there's a certain temptation to answer, if you're the mayor, when you're constantly barraged with questions. But there have been statements on both sides.
It seems like a horrible situation and I, for one, don't enjoy knowing the intimate details of the marriage and family structure of public figures. It isn't their job to have a good marriage. It's not their job to make no mistakes inside their private life. They have a job. It seems like when they're doing that, that's where the focus ought to be, but we are in the midst of this, and I'm sure we'll see every grizzly detail until the end.
BATTISTA: Well, so what are they thinking, putting their lawyers out there? Particularly the mayor's lawyer, as we know, who is very visible, over Mother's Day weekend saying some really nasty things about the mother of his children. And, I mean, you know, the feeding frenzy begins because these lawyers are courting and using the media. What are the risks when you start litigating a divorce in front of the media?
ANTHONY: You know, I think both attorneys kind of need to back up with that, because I think it's not just even affecting the Giuliani children. I understand it's affecting Judi Nathan's daughter quite a bit, too. She's having a very difficult time with this.
LIMBAUCHER: Well, remember the history here. It was Giuliani's attorney and his side who sought the gag order, and when they didn't get that gag order, it was...
ANTHONY: He ran to the microphones.
LIMBAUCHER: He ran -- well, it was a preemptive strike. I think at some level, Giuliani knew, or at least attempted to keep further ugliness from spilling forward. He's verbally remonstrated the press for following him into the bathroom stalls...
ANTHONY: Yeah, but he's never tried to keep this out of the public. If he was trying to keep this out of the public, he wouldn't be out in public with that woman while he's still married to Donna Hanover -- please!
LIMBAUCHER: The media ethics are interesting here. I mean, compare this with some of the recent coverage. I'm not talking about the Lewinsky case -- more recent coverage of President Clinton, who has been linked in the supermarket tabloids to a number of high- profile women -- we don't see serious media coverage of that. Neither Giuliani nor any of the women, two of which we're talking about, Judi Nathan and Crystine Lategano, have ever actually acknowledged a physical relationship with Giuliani. Yet the media has gone crazy, right up to and including "The New York Times".
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: What are you saying, Carl?
ANTHONY: ... any type of relationship with him other that a working one. And, you know, she's now married, so I don't even think it's fair to bring her up. However, Judi Nathan has not...
LIMBAUCHER: The tabloids of New York have. I mean, the mainstream tabloids, like "The Daily News" has repeatedly chased the Lategano story.
ANTHONY: "Vanity Fair" did the story, mainly.
LIMBAUCHER: OK, "Vanity Fair" may have begun it.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRE: But there's a deeper tragedy here. There's a deeper cultural tragedy, where we have Bill Clinton and his escapades, we have Giuliani. The basic message to the American people is that marriage is to be trivialized, and really that's a sad thing to me. I don't think it's entertainment. I think it's sad that our political leaders, whether it's Jesse Jackson, whether it's Giuliani, whether it's Bill Clinton, that they just casually throw way their wives. I am saddened by that.
TYLL: If we could -- if we could just redirect again to the people that they serve, I can just imagine the deep discomfort that New Yorkers feel every single day having to hear what you just called a "mainstream tabloid" reporting. I remember the discomfort with the Clinton marriage...
ANTHONY: I think New Yorkers are laughing at this. I live down the street from the man and I'm not sitting up here crying.
TYLL: It's just not what we want.
BATTISTA: You know what, I just got -- I got a call. You know what? You were just talking about the folks in New York. I got a call from one.
Collen is on the phone. Go ahead, Collen.
COLLEN: Yeah, I'd just like to say that, you know, Mayor Giuliani's wife and his children still live in Gracie Mansion, and I think the fact that he's fighting this ruling shows that he's putting the interests of his mistress before his children, and I think that's disgraceful.
BATTISTA: All right, Collen.
MCGUIRE: Where have we come in America that a man can have a mistress publicly and nobody bats an eye? I mean, this is a sad time for our nation.
ANTHONY: I think everybody's batting eyes. That's why we're talking about it.
(CROSSTALK)
LIMBAUCHER: I don't think we would have reached this point without the eight-year non-stop sexcapade scandals of the Clinton administration that have virtually...
ANTHONY: Oh, blame it all on Clinton.
LIMBAUCHER: ... numbed everybody to the...
BATTISTA: I thought...
LIMBAUCHER: I'm sorry. I mean, it's impossible to avoid.
TYLL: You can hear the relish with which some people relive some of those memories, but I think the caller has an excellent point. If anything at all, it's a very uncomfortable situation to watch. Certainly, there's enough blame to go around. But let's remember what his job is and what we elect these people to do.
ANTHONY: Well, I didn't vote for him.
TYLL: I think the same applies to Clinton.
MCGUIRE: But you cannot separate...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRE: You cannot separate the man's morality...
(CROSSTALK) LIMBAUCHER: ... latest opinion poll he's got an incredibly high support, I think, I believe it was over 62 percent, and that was in the, quote, "mainstream tabloid" I referred to earlier, "The New York Daily News."
MCGUIRE: But you cannot separate a man's private morality with his public decisions. They're integrated.
ANTHONY: Totally.
BATTISTA: Let me go to -- let me go to Kevin in the audience.
KEVIN: All right. First of all, if he's mayor, he's accepting the fact that he's a public figure, OK, and so therefore the media is going to talk about it and that's just the way it is. If he's mayor, he's a public figure.
Secondly, if he's estranged from his wife right now, he probably shouldn't be seeing his girlfriend at the -- at the governor's mansion, but once they get divorced, it's the man's public life and he's elected to be governor, not to be the...
ANTHONY: See, the main thing, they were trying to keep mayor -- the mayor and Donna were trying to keep this charade up that nothing was wrong throughout the end of his term. But it didn't work, and all of a sudden, you saw him every place with Judi Nathan.
LIMBAUCHER: Well, let's -- let's note that Mayor Giuliani announced the separation in May of 2000. They're not...
ANTHONY: He had no choice. He was about to be outed. You know, the press was going to announce it.
LIMBAUCHER: Well, you've (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They're not pretending to live together, as the Clintons still do, as husband and wife absent any hint that there's any irregularity going on. Giuliani has announced the separation. Hanover has acknowledged that. And in fact, today in the New York papers Giuliani has made it quite clear that Ms. Hanover is no longer the city's first lady.
So they're not hiding anything.
ANTHONY: No, I think he's throwing her out of her office. I think that she's no longer the...
BATTISTA: One last comment here.
TYLL: It's the same discomfort that we felt all along. Listen to this micromanaging other people's marriages and this kind of discord in public. No one wants this.
BATTISTA: One last comment from Peter in the audience from New York.
PETER: Yeah. I'm from New York, and again, I think this is taking away from the superb job that Mayor Giuliani has done for New York City. I think it's very unfortunate that his public and his personal life is on the front page of the newspapers. And I hope that he's not remembered for what he's going through now and they forget about all the good things that he's done.
BATTISTA: all right, that's it for round four. Coming up next, why were a group of middle-school students strip-searched at the local jail? We'll get into that one in just a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Welcome back. Troubled students from an inner-city middle school are strip-searched during a visit to a local jail in Washington. Corrections and school officials say they wanted to show the students what would happen if they were arrested. There has been an uproar over this incident, and now the FBI is even investigating to see if the children's civil rights were violated.
How do you feel about this, Paul?
MCGUIRE: Well, obviously, it's sexual abuse. You don't take kids into a prison system under the guise of education and then strip search them. It's sexual and emotional abuse, and people should be held accountable.
BATTISTA: It takes that scared-straight philosophy just a bit too far?
MCGUIRE: It's way too far. You strip -- you're looking into the private parts of kids that haven't committed a crime. It's sexual abuse.
TYLL: Well, I'm not sure if it was sexual abuse. I don't know if we have an allegation of that. But obviously, someone's judgment about what they needed to see rather than be taught about was way out of control.
ANTHONY: Any time you do a strip-search you have to touch someone's body, and that's a violation of a child. What they did was terrible. I mean, the scared straight that happened way back in the 'early '80s was totally different. You had prisoners yelling at people, kids that were already in trouble. You didn't have anyone touching someone and violating their bodies.
MCGUIRE: I agree with Flo. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a young kid, that's sexual abuse.
LIMBAUCHER: If you read the wire copy on this story, I mean, one of the -- one of the 14-year-old males acknowledged that he followed orders to a certain point, removing most of his clothing. He was actually placed on a table and had his underwear and socks physically removed by a guard.
ANTHONY: That's terrible.
LIMBAUCHER: What were these people thinking? I agree. What were these people thinking? TYLL: Well, I think we do know what they were thinking.
LIMBAUCHER: What was going on in the minds of these teachers? Please!
TYLL: I think we do know what was on the minds of the teachers...
LIMBAUCHER: What?
TYLL: And I think we've heard about tough love and scared straight, and we have a lot of people...
LIMBAUCHER: Oh, come on! As you...
TYLL: ... who are not qualified to make the right decisions in the best interests of the kids...
LIMBAUCHER: This 14-year-old teenager was resisting. This wasn't tough love.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRE: I don't understand how you (UNINTELLIGIBLE) behavior.
TYLL: No. 2, I think what the kids have suffered today is a great lesson toward the erosion of rights in America. The reason that we're all equally outraged at the effect this would have on the kids is because there is a sacred right not to be searched, not to be treated like a criminal that makes you an American.
The line was blurred in the interest of teaching them a lesson...
LIMBAUCHER: I think the people of Washington, D.C. have learned something about the public school system in that city...
TYLL: ... and I think a lot of damage was done.
LIMBAUCHER: ... and how at least certain elements in that school system are way out of control.
BATTISTA: Let me go to Andy...
ANTHONY: Way out of control and way out of line.
BATTISTA: ... Andy on the phone -- Andy on the phone -- Andy on the phone in California thinks this wasn't such a bad idea. Go ahead, Andy.
ANDY: Here's the reason. You know, No. 1, it's not sexual abuse. I mean, a strip search is...
LIMBAUCHER: Read the account from that 14-year-old boy. It was sexual abuse.
ANTHONY: For a criminal or someone who's been arrested it may not be, but for a child it is.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Hold on. Let me let -- let me let Andy finish...
(CROSSTALK)
Let me let Andy finish his thought.
ANDY: May I finish please? May I finish? OK. You -- what's the difference between the humiliation of inmates verbally abusing you and screaming at you and humiliating you in the most -- most harsh way they can and having somebody strip searched? It's a lot better to be humiliated now than to commit worse (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to prison (UNINTELLIGIBLE) profoundly humiliating.
LIMBAUCHER: Would you rather have your wife strip-searched or yelled at?
ANDY: Both.
TYLL: To answer what I think is almost a ridiculous...
ANTHONY: I don't think so.
BATTISTA: Did he say both?
TYLL: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE), let's look at -- let's take a look at how we all agree. Let's take a look...
BATTISTA: I -- you know, I'm not defending Andy, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate here. I think there are a lot of people out there who feel like there's not much that scares kids today anymore, and...
LIMBAUCHER: Oh, no, no, no. Come on. This had to be a horrific experience.
BATTISTA: ... you know, the frustration level...
TYLL: Well, I think -- I can tell you, Bobbie, that we had some calls to that effect on our show today. We have a nationally syndicated show,a and a couple of hours ago we were discussing this story all across the country. And there were a number of people who felt that these kids were in fact at the right age to be scared straight.
The argument is: show them what it's going to be like. What was missing here -- and I think that we all agree -- it was a horrible lapse in judgment. But let's not accuse anyone of sexual abuse and let's not mistake where the teachers and the corrections officers were trying to do a good job.
MCGUIRE: This was out-and-out sexual abuse, and that school system is going to be sued...
ANTHONY: It was out-and-out abuse.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRE: It's sexual abuse.
ANTHONY: It was child abuse. It was sexual abuse. It was all of it in a nutshell.
MCGUIRE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
BATTISTA: The fact that there were inmates around does make it pretty creepy. Let me have Joanne, our teacher in the audience here, have a word.
JOANNE: Well, as I said, I had three sons through high school. They all went with a teacher to the local prison, and it was a wonderful day for them. They really got scared. But I think this is too much over the top.
Another point that you could bring up is this point is taken care of several times on "The Maury Povich Show." I don't know if you want to hear about that, but he takes teenagers that are out of control with their parents and brings them to jail. But they never get violated in this manner. Never!
BATTISTA: Got to take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: And that'll do it for this edition of Free-for-All Friday. Our thanks to Flo Anthony, Paul McGuire, Ed Tyll, Carl Limbaucher. Thank you all so much. Appreciate you joining us today. Have a great holiday weekend.
TYLL: What a great show about personal integrity today. Thanks.
BATTISTA: Thank you guys very much. Have a great holiday weekend, everybody. Go easy on those hot dogs. We'll see you Monday.
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