THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they should know the humiliation process.
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BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Middle-schoolers strip-searched during a field trip to a Washington, D.C. jail.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter told me that when they got to the jail they handcuffed them and everything.
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ODIE WASHINGTON, D.C. DEP'T OF CORRECTIONS: The children were subjected to a strip-search as a simulation, and that by itself was inappropriate.
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BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Did school and jail officials go too far in their effort to keep kids out of trouble?
Also, condoms in the prom goodie bag leave the senior class president speechless. Her unapproved gift to graduating classmates outrages school officials, and she's banned from giving the commencement address. She knew she broke the rules bud says she did the right thing.
Today on TALKBACK LIVE: Who's to blame when good intentions go bad?
Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE on this Memorial Day. Middle-school kids strip-searched inside a D.C. jail -- the object of the field trip was to expose students to the reality of life behind bars. But now three corrections officials and two teachers are on administrative leave, and the FBI is even investigating whether the children's civil rights were violated. Our guests today are Armstrong Williams, a columnist and contributor to "USA Today." He hosts "The Right Side" with Armstrong Williams for the Talk America radio network, and he is the author of "Beyond Blame: Moving Beyond Being a Victim."
Armstrong, thanks for coming in on the holiday. Also with us, Nancy Skinner, a radio talk show host at WLS am in Chicago.
Same to you, Nancy. Good to see you.
NANCY SKINNER, WLS RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Bobbie.
BATTISTA: All right, you guys. We talked about this topic just for a brief time on Friday during Free-For-All-Friday, and it seemed to be the general consensus that this was going a bit too far. Some people even thought it bordered sexual abuse.
Armstrong, what do you think?
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TALK AMERICA RADIO NETWORK: Actually -- happy Memorial Day, everyone. Actually, I have a different take on it. If a parent who is experiencing disciplinary problems with their kids and the kids may end up in trouble with the law -- hanging out with the wrong crowd and end up in jail -- if a parent could look back and would have thought that maybe if my child could have had a reality test of what life would be like inside a prison, if they could go through humiliations for, let's say, for a day, if it could have saved for five or six years or staying out of trouble, then maybe it would have been worth it for that day.
Some people may say it was a violation, but the setup was that they would go and learn what would be like to be in prison for a day. These are kids who had disciplinary problems. The teachers in that school decided they needed to get their attention. And I think it's a wonderful thing that if a child can have that experience and not like it, and go back and tell his peers that they were humiliated, that they felt they were wrong. And they tell their parents, it will tell parents that if you don't want your child subjected to this, do a better job of raising them. Do a better job of disciplining them because this is what you have to look forward to. And I think if in the end it's going to cut down on the crime, cut down on the drugs, cut down on the misbehavior, I think in the long run we all win.
BATTISTA: Nancy, do you think that it would have that kind of affect on the kids?
SKINNER: No. I think it's the most outrageous thing I've ever heard of, Bobbie. And I really do think that this is bordering on child abuse, if not child abuse. Because they took these kids, nine of 12, 13-year-old boys in there, they made them strip while other inmates -- real jail inmates -- were watching. The guards yelled at them, swore at them, forced them. pulled their boxer shirts off. The kids are violated, upset. They were crying.
What good could this possibly do, Armstrong? If you want to scare kids about what their future might be -- I'm surprised they didn't put them in an electric chair and hook them up and say, you know, you could get fried. What we need to do with kids, especially kids who've had some disciplinary problems, is show them a positive model. Why didn't they take them to the Johnson Space Center and show them if they play their cards right they could be an astronaut or a surgeon. Why the negative reinforcement and the fear? Why not something positive and uplifting?
WILLIAMS: You know, what is so unfortunate is that many teachers and administrators live through the school system on a daily basis. And not only are they teachers, they're parents, they're counselors, they're disciplinarians, and it's one of the reasons why schools have just gone -- just are totally out of control, because the children have no respect for authority. They have less respect for themselves, and they show little respect for their parents. I mean, in an idealistic world, there are many kids that we can show positive reinforcements to by taking them to the Kennedy Space Center. But most kids are not like the kids that we're speaking of. There are some kids out there who are very troubled that no matter what you tell them they're going to do just the opposite.
SKINNER: OK, Armstrong, do you approve of these kids being stripped while jail inmates are watching them? And swore at, and forcefully put on a table where their clothes were removed? Do you approve of that, really?
WILLIAMS: Believe it or not, Nancy, I do. If that's going to get their attention, yes.
BATTISTA: Let me hold that thought right there because I want to flesh the story out just a little bit more. There are a lot of particulars that we don't know about yet, so joining us briefly here now is Bill Prasad, a reporter for WTTG in Washington, where the story has been playing pretty high in your newscast, from what we understand.
Bill, help us with this story a little bit. Whose idea was the strip-search, anyway?
BILL PRASAD, WTTG REPORTER: Apparently, it was the idea of the teacher and the in-school suspension coordinator. They talked to, allegedly, the three jail officers and the -- all of them decided that this was going to be a good idea, because apparently these kids had disciplinary problems.
BATTISTA: And so it was -- but no permission was secured from any parents or administrators or anything like that before these kids were taken for this?
PRASAD: Absolutely not. School officials say this is a flagrant violation of policy for these kids to have been strip-searched.
BATTISTA: And this was not the first time, as I understand it, that kids had been strip-searched during a visit to the jail?
PRASAD: There are allegations floating around that now the tours of the jails have been going on since 1989. They are given to kids who have disciplinary problems, as well as kids who are showing good behavior, just as a civics lesson. So these lessons and these tours have been going on for quite some time.
BATTISTA: And what we're hearing about how the kids had to undergo these strip-searches while inmates were able to watch -- is that true, also?
PRASAD: That is what we are also hearing. And the unfortunate part about it is that some of the reports seem to indicate that while some the inmates were watching, they were masturbating.
BATTISTA: Oh, boy.
SKINNER: Ah! Bobbie, I would like to know what the disciplinary problems were for this kids.
BATTISTA: Yeah, well, what do we know about these kids, Bill? Were they chronic troublemakers, or you know, was it -- were they just kids who had gotten in trouble kind of typically?
PRASAD: Well, because they're minors we don't have access to the school records. We just know that they were being disciplined, and this an in-school suspension program, so the school officials wanted them to be disciplined in house, as opposed to being made to stay at home.
BATTISTA: And what kind of disciplinary action now is being taken against the teachers or any administrators or jail officials?
PRASAD: The three jail officers, the physical education teacher and the in-school suspension coordinator have all been placed on paid leave. As for the tours, they have been suspended for the moment. There are three investigations going on at the same time. The department of corrections is investigating, the school system is investigating and the FBI is investigating for possible civil rights violations, and that would be pertaining to an inappropriate search and seizure.
BATTISTA: And these jail trips that the school has been using, what's the status of them now?
PRASAD: For the moment, they are over. There are a number of parents who are saying that the jail trips should be terminated permanently.
BATTISTA: All right, Bill, stand by if you will, quickly. Let me go to the audience here and get some initial reaction to the story. Charles, go.
CHARLES: Well, I think that if we're using the scared-straight program, it's showing these people negative consequences to negative misconduct. So I think if these people are misconducting, you know, that's not going to lead them to NASA and great jobs in the White House or anything like that. That's about it.
BATTISTA: So you're just trying to keep them out of jail, is what you're saying. Well, we don't know that these are high-risk kids necessarily, yet, either.
J.R. -- let me go to Calvin, first.
CALVIN: I agree with the gentleman. It's like, can you imagine the amount of trauma that these kids left the prison with? If they were troublemakers before they went to the prison, I can only imagine how they feel leaving the prison. Terribly traumatized.
SKINNER: That's right. And Bobbie, we see that when we see kids incarcerated as juveniles. You put them with other prison inmates and that's all they see, and they become worse as a result of it. The hypocrisy here, Armstrong, is you're always arguing against violence on TV. That we don't want our kids exposed this type of violence, but all of a sudden it's OK to personally violate them, and somehow that makes them better? Where violence on TV is so disastrous? How do you reconcile that?
WILLIAMS: I think the first thing we need to understand in this conversation is that this is what prison is like. Make no mistake about it. This is prison. This is not some make-believe on television. This is what happens. It's not as if this were the first time that these kids had ever gone through this program. It was not. All of a sudden, because of this particular visit, someone became very upset. But if these kids are going to deal with -- instead of some grandiose idea of what prison is like and instead of what reality, what really goes on in that prison, this is what's necessary.
SKINNER: What do you think they think it's like? Do you think they think it's a picnic and you're trying to burst the balloon?
WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes. I think these young boys are managed. They know everything. You can't spank these kids anymore because the law says you can sue your parents. Parents can't raise the kids. When the police beat them to death, you want to say police brutality.
So, let me just say, in desperate times it takes desperate measures, and in order to get these young boys' attention -- and they are young boys -- and 13 and 14-year-olds are killing, Nancy, believe it or not -- if this is going to stop them from killing and lead the life of crime, my God, I'm for it, I'm sorry.
SKINNER: I think it will push them more in that direction. This is child abuse, and you have violated these kids. These inmates watching as they're strip-searched forcibly? You don't think that that is going to damage them psychologically and they will act out on that? I think you can have just the opposite effect.
BATTISTA: Bill, do you think there's more -- do you think there's more to come out about this story, that there's still a lot we don't know? And I would assume there are lawsuits already in the work?
PRASAD: One of the parents is thinking about filing a lawsuit, and school officials are looking at all the tours that have occurred so far this year. There were three other tours by these Evans middle school students that took place in the last few months. One tour -- in one tour, they were all girls, and one of the girls is alleging that she was placed in handcuffs and shackles, but so far it's not clear whether or not she did that voluntarily or whether she was forced.
BATTISTA: All right, I got to take a quick break here. Bill Prasad from WTTG, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it today.
And as we go to break, tough love scared straight. Do fear tactics work? We'll have just a little more on that later coming up a little bit later. Graduating senior Lissette Stanley says she is still paying for handing out condoms at the prom. We will talk about that.
Last October, a fourth-grade show-and-tell in Kansas City turned into a strip-search after a World War II medal went missing. According to the ACLU, boys were taken to the bathroom and made to strip down to their underwear in front of the principal and the coach. The girls were padded down by a female teacher. Medal turned up on the floor under a desk.
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BATTISTA: Couple of e-mails here. Patrick in Massachusetts says: "The school didn't go too far. These days, punishment such as detention and suspension are nothing more than a big joke to most students."
Kino (ph) in Buffalo, New York says: "The adults responsible for stripping the students, both teachers and prison officials, should be fired immediately. This is no way to treat children."
On the phone with us, J.R. in Kansas City. Go ahead, J.R.
J.R.: I would like to know what if Nathaniel Brazill would have gone through something like this, maybe he would not have shot his teacher.
BATTISTA: Well, that's a rhetorical question. Not sure we can answer that one for you.
Let me go to the audience here. And -- this guest in our audience today, you work at a prison facility. We were just having a discussion during the break where you were saying that anybody that walks into that facility is subject to a strip-search.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is true, and it's posted. Any time you come into a jail or a prison facility, it's a sign there that says you are subject to a search up to a strip-search. And if they feel like they have any type of probable cause, they can search you.
BATTISTA: I'm guessing they wouldn't think they would have probable cause in a field trip from a local high -- junior-high school? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I would say, yes, they can have probable cause, because working in the facility, I have seen it up to someone hiding crack cocaine in a baby's diaper. So, these were young men, and yes, they could have brought in something.
The think that I disagree with is the way that they were strip- searched. I feel that was degraded, because they should have been separated. Not done -- it should -- they should not have been strip- searched in front of the inmates.
However, if this is a scare straight program, once they come into the facility, they will be strip-searched in front of other inmates. They will be strip-searched. No one is separated out in a small room and all this privacy. They was doing it the way that it's going to be normally done, and this is the way it would have been done.
BATTISTA: And that's the big question, Armstrong and Nancy. We really don't know at what spot these kids were at. We don't know, you know, whether they were seriously at-risk kids, do we?
WILLIAMS: But you know what? It's really, Bobbie, it's not even relevant. I think that the young lady that just spoke hit the nail on the head. If you -- if you have discipline problems and a part of your discipline is not to be suspended, they would prefer that you stay in school, but what they do instead is take you to prison, and give you a reality check of what prison life is like, then why would you -- why would you expect something less than what these kids were exposed to?
SKINNER: Armstrong, we don't know -- what if these were throwing spit wads, and all of a sudden, you're going to label them as bad kids, then you take them in, you violate them. They're crying, they're physically abused, and then -- then what happens? Because they were throwing spit wads, all of a sudden, they are bad kids? The guard said to them: "This is what you may be facing in your future." You need to treat kids in a positive way, not this negative labeling.
WILLIAMS: Let me tell you how you and I differ, Nancy. You see, I don't see them as kids. That's the first mistake.
SKINNER: They're kids. They're 13 years old.
WILLIAMS: No, I don't see them...
SKINNER: And if it was your kid, Armstrong, you would be the first one down there slapping a lawsuit on them.
WILLIAMS: No. You are wrong.
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SKINNER: Yes, you would be.
WILLIAMS: No. But let me say this to you, Nancy. The other thing is too is that institutions, high schools have rules and guidelines. Kids and parents understand what those guidelines are. Once you violate those guidelines, there are consequences for your actions. If part of the consequence, or whatever their behavior was, whatever the disciplinarian problems were, if they were to go in that jail...
SKINNER: How far does that go?
WILLIAMS: If they were to go to that jail -- before, this is not the first time these kids have been strip-searched. Nancy, I understand, as a mother, you probably feel a little bit different than I as a man. But I got to tell you something. We must raise these young boys differently. The part of the problem...
SKINNER: What is this, Afghanistan?
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BATTISTA: Let's talk a little bit more about this scared straight program, because it is controversial. So, I want to bring on the phone with us from Pennsylvania Clay Yeager, who is executive director of the governor's Community Partnership for Safe Children.
We don't know if it was part of this, an official scared straight program. I don't think it was. But these programs in general, Clay , are they successful?
CLAY YEAGER, PARTNERSHIP FOR SAFE CHILDREN: Good, afternoon, Bobbie, and to my guests on the show today.
I'm sure the irony isn't lost on any of us that in the wake of all the school shootings during the past couple of years and increasing our awareness regarding bullying and taunting and widespread intolerance of those kinds behaviors that this afternoon we're having a discussion about an approach that has all the same elements: humiliation, taunting, shame and embarrassment.
Unfortunately, it's another example of a quick-fix mentality that we're all wrapped up in, looking for easy, quick solutions to what are very complex problems.
The bottom line is the evidence on scared-straight programs overall is week. There's very little evidence, if any, that it works. Maybe in the short term, a few days.
But the research that has been done -- for example, in the now- famous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) scared-straight program of about 25 years ago, the research on that found not only did it not make kids better or prevent them from getting into further trouble, but in many cases it made them worse. Kids left those experiences not being fearful of going to prison, but these are kids whose lives are so loaded with risk to begin with that they lift feeling, wow, now I really have to get tough before I go to prison, a completely unexpected, unintended consequence.
BATTISTA: You know what, I've got a bunch of kids in the audience here. Let me go to them quickly. Kevin, what do you think? KEVIN: I went to junior high school in Detroit, and there the students did go to a jail for a scared-straight program, but they were never strip-searched. They would just go down the jail, the hallways where the inmates were at. The inmates would talk to them, but they would be behind bars. They would go into another office where the police could tell them what the procedures were to being arrested.
BATTISTA: Did it work on any of those kids you knew?
KEVIN: Most of them it worked, but the other ones, they still went their own direction.
BATTISTA: Yes.
So, Clay, in other words, what you're saying about it not being terribly successful, if you even save one kid, though, a lot of people might look at it as being successful.
YEAGAR: Well, but the problem we have, Bobbie, is that we don't have enough scientific evidence. I mean, we don't know if it was the -- we don't know if it was the scared-straight experience or there might have been several other things occurring in the kid's life. And it's really easy for us to look back and say that was the event that changed it.
I think the much larger discussion that we need to be having in this country isn't on the value of these kinds of approaches, because I think they're just very well-intended but they're part of this quick fix, fix mentality. The larger discussion we need to be having in this country why are there so many, so many kids -- a large, growing number of kids -- who feel so disenfranchised, detached, uninvolved, who are now in alternative schools, who are now in the juvenile justice system.
BATTISTA: Well, it's, you know, we usually say that it's important to have an adult, some sort of adult figure in a kid's life while they're growing up. Hopefully, it's one of their parents or both. But when a kid doesn't have that, it oftentimes falls on the teacher to fill that role, and that's where you end up getting in trouble, because the teacher's hands are tide from taking a lot of disciplinary action. So the kids do get away with a lot. And then what are you supposed to do?
YEAGAR: Well...
SKINNER: But Bobbie, what about -- what about mentoring programs? I bet, Clay, if you've studied those, the evidence would show that getting these kids involved with a mentor is going to be much more beneficial than scaring them straight. And conflict resolution programs, we know those work.
YEAGAR: The one common element that has remained throughout time -- you know, we have this discussion every generation. It says, "This generation is the worst generation of kids." I'm sure my parents' generation looked at us and had the same concerns. We often talk that kids are different today. Kids are not different today. The world around them is different. Society is different. The cultural influences are much stronger. But the one common theme in every kid's life who has been on the edge, who has been at risk and has made it back, they talk about that important caring adult in a sustained long- term relationship, somebody who's always present for them.
The world is full of kids who at one time were considered doomed and hopeless who today are contributing members of society because of very important people. It doesn't have to be a teacher. It can be the next-door neighbor. It can be someone down the street. It can be a coach. It can be a mentor.
What we're investigating in Pennsylvania is proven programs, proven strategies that we know will -- we can invest wisely now and save both lives and money long term. These are very important discussions, and I'm just afraid that we look at things like scared- straight, shock incarceration, quick fix, easy solutions, and yet, there's absolutely no evidence that they work.
BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here and then we'll go to the audience. Lisa on the phone in Illinois, hang on. We'll be back.
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BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here quickly and get some feedback -- Donna.
DONNA: When a program like this is necessary in an extreme case, it should be done with a conjunction of social workers, school psychologists. No teacher should make the decision in conjunction with somebody at the prison site without the parents being involved that this should be done.
It was way too extreme, and most school suspensions are -- in- school suspensions are minor things. This is not -- no indication that this is a chronic problem and was way out of line. And no parent would ever expect that this field trip to the jail would result in that strip search.
WILLIAMS: If I could add -- if I could add a point, you know, the gentleman on the phone said during the last segment that things basically are the same as they were long ago. Well, things are not the same now, because I mean, when I was coming up, my teachers could discipline us if we were out of place. And once we returned home, our parents would discipline us too. There was more of a structure in place -- the church, the community -- and parents were not as disconnected from the community and people living in the community as they are today.
The kids today are not the like the kids when I was coming along. These kids are different. I mean, when I was coming up, coming along as a child and many of the kids that I knew, it was unthinkable to think about shooting somebody with a gun or taking a knife to school.
First of all, we were scared to death of our parents, but kids don't fear their parents anymore. They don't fear authority anymore. And I understand what the parent just said when she spoke that no parent would expect this. And she's right.
But we're not talking about most kids. Most kids do very well. Most parents do a very good job of rearing their kids. But there are some kids in society, I hate to say, that you've just got to use different measures to get their attention. And this may not be the only answer, but it's one of the answers in a series of other things that just needs to be done.
SKINNER: Armstrong, one of the school shooters was a kid who was home-schooled in a Christian family. He went and got a gun and blew away his classmates. One of them, I think -- I don't know -- it was Paducah, Kentucky. So you can't say it's these little super-predators out there and we need to stop them in their tracks. Sometimes you just don't know what is inside the mind of a kid.
WILLIAMS: But Nancy, I didn't say whether they were in a single- parent household, a two-parent household. I never stated what the situation was. I just said that there are some kids that are different.
SKINNER: You're just saying...
BATTISTA: Let me get Clay back in here, because, you know, part of what Armstrong says I do agree with. My sister a teacher in the school system today, and it is different, Clay.
YEAGER: Yeah, and I want to make sure clear on what I meant. I said that the world around them is different. The culture and society around them is different. But kids essentially today are no different than they were generations ago. Kids still have the same need to feel belonging. They feel still the need a sense of attachment to the community, their school, their families.
But the sad and sobering truth in this country is that on any given day in this country, kids under the age of 18, half of them aren't speaking to both their parents every day. Two-thirds of the parents in this country admit they don't have a clue where the kids are, who they are with, or what they are doing after school at night. When family can't provide that essential ingredients of healthy development of our children, then we have to rely on our communities to fill the gaps, because...
SKINNER: Takes a village.
YEAGER: Well, it does take a village, but the village first has to understand their role. And it's not government's responsibility. We're building prisons all over this country to fill with lives of these kids who nobody paid attention to. They get to be 15, 16, 18 years old. They fill up our prisons, and everyone of them can tell you that what was missing mostly in their lives growing up was that important characteristic, that important attachment to adults in their own communities.
BATTISTA: Let me grab Lisa on the phone here from Illinois. Lisa, go ahead. LISA: Yeah, hi, Bobbie. I just graduated from law school, and I recently interned on a strip-search case out here. And the bottom line in all of this is that -- why we argue about the policy issues? This is illegal. The government cannot just grab people and strip- search them for a prophylactic reason.
BATTISTA: But evidently, in prison, that laws seems to be bent a little bit, according to one of the folks in our audience who works for a prison.
LISA: Right. That law is bent in the case of people who are visiting inmates. They are put under -- they are able to be strip- searched, and actually they are strip-searched in private rooms, they have privacy. Those are for visitors who might have a motive to slip something to an inmate, not for children. A there is a lot of case law on what happens when kids get strip-searched by schools. And guess what? The schools lose.
BATTISTA: All right. Thanks very much. Appreciate it, Lisa.
Let me go quickly to Yanis (ph) in the audience.
YANIS: This is really interesting, because Armstrong and people like you that really agree with this. What he is saying is, those people in prison, they lack love, so let's show them -- let's make them feel like they can love. He said, we should show them, like, what corporate do. Whenever their employees are not motivated, they usually bring a positive speaker that could motivate them.
So, we should do the same. Bring people from church or other area that could positively motivate these people, so one day they could be president or some others areas, instead you would turn out in prison. Of course, that's all they are going to receive if we are going to tell them that.
BATTISTA: Couple of e-mails here. From Nadine in Florida who says: "Children who are behavior problems should be subjected to jail and all the things that go with it." Jackie in North Carolina says: "These things happen in prison, said your guest. Rapes, beatings also happen in prison. Would it be OK if students were raped too?"
Clay Yeager, we thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate your time on this holiday.
YEAGER: Thank you, Bobbie.
BATTISTA: We have to take another quick break here. In a moment, Lissette Stanley wonders what is so wrong with handing out condoms on prom night. Seemed like a good idea at the time. We will talk to Lissette right after the break.
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BATTISTA: All right. Welcome back. We are switching gears a little bit on you here to a topic -- well, actually, this took place in Tampa, Florida, where the president of the senior class came up with an idea for what to put in the goodie bags at the prom that night, and got into a whole lot of trouble for it. Lissette Stanley joins us from Tampa today.
Lissette, we should say that because of this little plan of yours they took away your title as class president, and they told you that you could not give the commencement address at graduation. So, that's pretty good size punishment there. So, tell us: what were you thinking when you decided to just drop those condoms in all those goodie bags?
LISSETTE STANLEY, HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: Well, I was just thinking to put condoms in gift bags for the students to have after the prom, you know. That's all I was thinking.
BATTISTA: You had to know it was controversial. So, did you not, like, check it with other friends, or teachers, or administrators, or anybody?
STANLEY: I really didn't think it was that controversial, to be honest with you. I just -- somebody came up, actually -- somebody came up to me and told me that they could get a bunch of condoms for us to give out at the prom. And before her telling me that, a bunch of students had come up to me and asked me if we were going to, because other high school, you know, have been doing it. And then, it had never occurred to me, I didn't know, and when she told me that, I was like, OK, you do it, you know?
But a week before the prom, we decided that it would be a good idea for everybody to have one, because everybody was talking and it was going around the school that a lot of people were going to have sex that night. The paper had run a survey, and they had written, like, three or four stories in our school paper about sex and involving prom, and just different things like that. And we decided it would be a good idea to make sure that everybody has a condom, because you never know what can happen.
BATTISTA: So, you thought you were being responsible and kind of helping out your friends here?
STANLEY: Yeah.
BATTISTA: OK. So, you are having a great time at the prom that night. And then, when did it become apparent that there was a problem?
STANLEY: Well, I guess around 11:00, somewhere around that hour, the assistant principal comes up to me, and he is like, who is responsible for these condoms? And, you know, I was dancing, and they pulled me off of the dance floor, and I was like, I guess I am. And then he goes oh, so I -- he looked real mad. I said kind of to myself, oh, I'm in trouble. But then I went back on the dance floor and tried to forget about this, because, you know, that's all he said, and he turned around and walked away.
So, I go back on the dance floor, I'm dancing again. And about 15 minutes later, teachers are coming up to me, and they are like, you are in a whole lot of trouble, you are going to get suspended, something is going to happen. And that was it. It was horrible. I was crying. I wanted to leave. I got a headache.
BATTISTA: And it's kind of going downhill from there, I presume?
STANLEY: Yeah.
BATTISTA: Have you trying to plead your case to school administrates? Are they sticking to the punishment?
STANLEY: Well, I tried to plead my case, I guess you could say, those first couple of days. I knew there had to be a punishment of some sort, because I didn't ask for permission to put the condoms in the bag, and I knew that something -- they had to do something, but I wasn't expecting them to take something away that I could never get back.
BATTISTA: How did your parents feel about this whole thing, and what has been the reaction from other kids at the school?
STANLEY: Well, my parents were OK with the whole thing. I mean, my mom was a little mad at first, but she got over it. She is OK with it now. My dad is OK with it. And the kids around school, they are being very supportive, and things like that.
BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly to find out how they feel about it. Ray, what do you think?
RAY: I'd like to just express the opinion that this was a completely inappropriate thing to do because it advocates inappropriate behavior, and that's a mistake.
BATTISTA: And over here to Ebony, you're a student.
EBONY: It's not necessarily that they were trying to encourage the students to have sex, but they were trying to protect them. Even though all students are not going to have sex on prom night, but for the ones that do, they want to protect them by giving them condoms.
BATTISTA: Armstrong, Nancy, what do you think?
SKINNER: Well, you know, I'm surprised they're not going to send her to jail and strip-search her in front of inmates because she's misbehaved. You know, why not?
(APPLAUSE)
SKINNER: Clearly, Bobbie, you won't be shocked to know that I think this is a little bit of an overreaction on their part, to take her title away. That is something that will be with her for her whole life. There are smaller measures they could have taken. And you know what? The root of this is this focus on chastity education. The federal government is spending more and more money, saying we can only teach chastity, only. And we're going to -- it's the ostrich approach. We're going to act like sex won't happen until we say it's OK when they're married. It's happening. She made a mistake. Probably, to do it on school grounds was not wise, but they've overreacted.
BATTISTA: Armstrong?
WILLIAMS: Obviously, it's obvious what I'm going to say, and it certainly not going to agree with Nancy.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: This kid has such a sweet spirit, I just want to hug her. She is innocent, but she also understands that she was elected to a leadership position. And in that leadership position, whether you are elected by your peers or whether you had a high academic achievement where you were valedictorian, comes with that certain responsibilities. And you have a responsibility to lead by example and not listening to others to manipulate you because they thought it was a fun thing. And she actually thought it was fun. It was a cute thing to do, and she do not really consider the consequences.
But now I think she's realized that what she's done goes against the ethics and the codes of the school. And there's a price that she must pay for it, the fact that she's not going to speak at the commencement. And they stripped her of her title. And this is not necessarily for her, but for other presidents and others in her position who will succeed her. And all students around the country realize that you cannot do this. I mean, it's not your responsibility to provide condoms for anyone. Your job is to lead and to set an example. And I think she just has to learn the tough way.
BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break here, but when come back we'll get reaction from Lissette and ask her if she'd do it again. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Couple of e-mails here, Mai (ph) in South Carolina says: "Parents should be the ones to give their children condoms, not a peer. Giving condoms to them only gave them more ideas and made their minds wander."
Brian in Michigan says: "It's absurd that someone is being punished for handing out condoms. It's too bad more schools don't do that to stop teen pregnancy and STDs. That girl should be awarder. Lissette, keep up the good work."
(APPLAUSE)
BATTISTA: Lissette, let me ask you to react to what Armstrong strong said before the break,and answer the question on -- after reviewing all of this and getting all this reaction, which I think you never dreamed of, would you do it again?
LISSETTE STANLEY, HIGH SCHOOL I would do it again if -- I would do it again because of the fact that...
(APPLAUSE)
... students did need the condoms and they thanked me for putting them in there. And I remember, specifically one student that came up to me and said, Lissette, I was going to have sex on prom night and the I wasn't going to use a condom, but because I remembered that there were condoms in the bag, it made me go out and get some and use some condoms for when I had sex.
WILLIAMS: I tell you, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that you would say what you just said. And I understand you mean well, but I don't think these young people realize what sex can lead to. It's as if a condom is protection. But if you have sex and they still -- do you realize how sacred that is? At your age, that a child could be conceived? Are you in a position, graduating from high school, to raise a child? What about the sexually transmitted disease, what about AIDS? And what about the fact that you think a condom is going to stop someone from -- that necessarily, they're going to wear the condom?
I just think for you -- because you're a leader. Your peers elected you. I think you should set a better example, before the country, sitting here saying you would do it again, I don't think is the moral answer. And I don't think you really mean it.
SKINNER: Armstrong, she just told that there was a kid who said he was going to have sex and not use a condom. And because of her actions, he would. That might have saved a life. That might have prevented a pregnancy.
WILLIAMS: Show leadership, here. It's easy to go and distribute condoms, but do the moral thing. Not all kids are responsible enough to handle this. What you should do is show leadership, so you should not be responsible for whatever happens on that night. It won't on be your hands.
SKINNER: Armstrong, Lissette might have saved...
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Come on. What are we teaching our kids? What are we teaching them? What are you saying?
SKINNER: She might have just saved a life. She might have stopped a pregnancy. She might have done a number of things.
WILLIAMS: They shouldn't be having sex in the first place, is what you can't get through your head.
SKINNER: But you -- well, you want to take the moral high ground, and the kids are going to get AIDS and there's going to be pregnancies, and then you could be on your high...
WILLIAMS: It's OK if you want to do that, but we're talking about children, here. We're not talking about
BATTISTA: Armstrong... WILLIAMS: We're not talking about adults. They're children!
BATTISTA: But I have to say -- not that this is saying it's OK, but seniors have been having sex for 100 years.
WILLIAMS: Well, that's not encouraging. That's the point. That's not encouraging.
BATTISTA: It's not. It's not. I've got to say it is a personal choice.
SKINNER: You don't need to, Armstrong.
BATTISTA: It is a personal choice, but it does seem to, you know, go through the generations like that. I mean, you can't say it's necessarily just today. Let me go to the audience, Christine.
CHRISTINE: Armstrong, I'm really sorry that you feel that way about it, because I feel that you are actually living with the your head in the sand. I work in a facility that deals with young people who come in because they're HIV positive. And if you look at the statistics, it would show you that the majority of young people get infected between the ages of 19 and 25. So for those of you who feel that young people -- if you give them a condom they're going to engage, it's better that they engage in sex if they are going to do it, with a condom, than deal with the consequences, which are STDs, which includes HIV and a death sentence. And pregnancy. Thank you.
WILLIAMS: What about abstinence? How about encouraging that?
CHRISTINE: That's a possibility, but in a lot of cases it is not the reality.
BATTISTA: Let me go to the Jocelyn in the audience, speaking of that.
JOCELYN: If I were to get a condom in a goodie bag, or if I were to be asked if I wanted a condom, I would be very, very insulted. I am a virgin. I plan on staying that way until I married. And if I were to get a condom in a goodie bag or if I were to be asked if I wanted a condom, I would be very, very insulted. I'm a virgin. I plan on staying that way until I'm married. And if I were to get a condom, I mean, I would just be so insulted.
(APPLAUSE)
STANLEY: Well, I'd like to say I'm a virgin, and if somebody gave me a condom or put a condom in my goodie bag I wouldn't be insulted in any way. I just would simply -- I wouldn't...
(APPLAUSE)
It wouldn't insult me.
WILLIAMS: Well, if you are a virgin, why are you passing out condoms? Why don't you encourage who you are? STANLEY: Because I'm...
WILLIAMS: Help...
STANLEY: Because I know that not everybody makes the same decisions and I know that a lot of kids are having sex.
WILLIAMS: Why can't they make the decisions you've made? What makes you think they can't make those decisions if they're not encouraged?
BATTISTA: Gosh, if we had the answer to that -- if we had the answer to that, Armstrong, my goodness.
WILLIAMS: I would like to hear her answer. I respect what she's saying. I think she has it right. But for her to assume nobody else can get it right is what bothers me.
SKINNER: Wait a minute. Armstrong, about that kid who went to jail, why do you want him to deal with the reality that is...
WILLIAMS: Oh, here we go.
(CROSSTALK)
SKINNER: ... if that's what the reality of it is, you should go to prison and suffer like this, but you want to live in a make-believe world when it comes to whether kids are having sex.
WILLIAMS: Why don't we give them a high moral standard? Why do you lower the bar?
SKINNER: Which way do you want it?
WILLIAMS: Why are you lowering the bar for these kids? Why?
SKINNER: The bar...
(CROSSTALK)
SKINNER: The has always been through all of human history, and we've just got to deal with it and prevent the worst from happening.
BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call.
WILLIAMS: I would like her to answer my question.
BATTISTA: Lissette, you -- let me have you answer that question first and then I'll take a phone call.
STANLEY: OK. Can you repeat the question for me, because...
WILLIAMS: Why don't you encourage them to follow your example?
STANLEY: Well, because I know that students -- everybody makes their own decisions and they do whatever they decide to do, and there are a lot more kids out there having sex than kids out there not having sex.
And to me, it is -- and to me and a lot of students it's not a big deal to put a condom in a bag. You use it if you want to, and if you don't, you don't. And it's that simple.
You know, if you're going to do it, you might as well have protection, and if you're not going to do it, it's even better for you.
(APPLAUSE)
BATTISTA: Barbara's on the phone from Florida. Barbara, go ahead.
HELEN: Hello.
BATTISTA: Hi.
HELEN: I'm Helen from Florida.
BATTISTA: Oh, I'm sorry, Helen. Go ahead.
HELEN: That's OK. I think it's sad for the children today. They want them to grow up, and then when they start saying, "Have you got condoms," oh, my god they're little babies.
They should have condoms. Today -- I'm 67, we didn't even have sex until we got married. That was the dark ages. Today everything's out in the open. When are they going to wake up to these poor kids and teach them?
BATTISTA: All right. We've got to take a quick break. We'll be back.
WILLIAMS: I'm old-fashioned. I'm sorry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: A couple of e-mails here. Lynn in Tampa, Florida says: "My daughter is a student at Blake. All I have heard is how wonderful this act was. I'm embarrassed for my daughter's high school. This young lady made a poor leadership choice. Students live up to or down to our expectations."
Jacob in Missouri says: "I'm in a high-school setting and sex is pretty much synonymous with prom. There are several girls that get pregnant every year, and I think that this was a very smart move by the class president."
To the audience and Mark.
MARK: I see a double-standard here. On one hand, we try to do something like the straight -- scared-straight program to deter inappropriate behavior and here then include condoms in this packet. I do believe that that can be an encouraging, encouraging inappropriate behavior. And there are those who are struggling with that decision, and that may have been the thing that got them to give in. I see a double-standard here in the audience.
BATTISTA: Let me go quickly to our poll question today, and that was whether or not Lissette should be able to give her commencement address at the graduation ceremonies. And 77 percent are saying yes, 23 percent are saying no. By the way, we should say, Lissette, you are giving your speech on radio tomorrow.
STANLEY: Yes, I am.
(APPLAUSE)
BATTISTA: All right, Lissette Stanley, thank you very much for joining us. Armstrong Williams, Nancy Skinner, thank you. Appreciate it.
STANLEY: Thank you for having me on.
SKINNER: Thanks, Bobbie.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
BATTISTA: Have a good holiday, everybody. We'll see you again.
SKINNER: Thanks, Armstrong.
BATTISTA: We'll see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE.
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