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CNN Talkback Live
Idaho Standoff: When will it end?
Aired June 01, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The test of our system is whether we can provide fairness and integrity for the people who may have done or are accused of doing the worst things we can imagine.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He knows he's going to die someday. Just do it and get it over with and be done with it.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 15-year-old son took exception to something that was said or something that was done and bolted for the house. He yelled to the children that were still in the house to get the guns.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's too sad. Those children, especially, needed help a long time ago.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One to Jenna Bush for misrepresentation of her age by a minor, also to Barbara Bush for possession of an alcoholic beverage by a minor.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're the president's daughter, so there's an expectation that you have.
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CASEY MARTIN, GOLFER: I know that deep down I'd much rather walk with a healthy leg than ride with my leg.
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TIGER WOODS, GOLFER: I think walking the regular golf course is part of our game.
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CHRIS ASKEW, ASSISTANT HOST: Talking about raising tipping to 25 percent. What do you think about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have a problem tipping 25 percent if I receive good service.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll have to look at my career a little differently, and maybe change.
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BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: You got something to say? It's "Free- For-All-Friday."
Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to Friday -- "Free-For-All- Friday." You all know how we do it: We talk until the bell cuts you off and then we change subjects.
So let's meet our guests today: Here in Atlanta, syndicated radio talk show host Delilah, who will be with us momentarily. She is caught in that infamous Atlanta traffic. So while we wait for her, though, Ian Punnett is with us. Ian is heard frequently on WGST and weekly across North America on coast-to-coast AM. He is also a seminarian.
Ian, good to see you.
In Los Angeles Marc Germain is with us -- radio talk show host on KABC. Marc, nice to see you.
MARC GERMAIN, KABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi.
BATTISTA: And in Washington, Blanquita Cullum joins us -- talk show host for Radio America and president of the national Association of Radio Talk Shows.
BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO AMERICA TALK SHOW HOST: Hi Bobbie.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: All right, our first round today: that standoff in Idaho involving those kids. Five children are holed up inside their home, armed and protected by vicious dogs. Their father died recently, and the mother, described as increasingly paranoid, was taken into custody on charges of felony injury to a child. The children, who range in age from 8-16, apparently fear the deputies who are trying to take them and get them to leave the house.
Ian, let me start with you. This is one of these no-win situations. Do you think so far police are handling this in the right way?
IAN PUNNETT, WGST RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: The fact that nobody has been shot on either side of the battle lines, and just the fact that they've been able to keep tempers down, they've been able to get some response out of the house.
The 15-year-old -- the last report we heard -- the boy that was coming out to talk, that's all good news. Nobody has been getting itchy trigger fingers on the part of the local law enforcement, that's good news. Right now I think everybody's got to feel pretty good that we're learning our lessons from Ruby Ridge and Waco and, hopefully, finding a new way to kind of resolve a situation that could potentially blow up into something else that would become another national tragedy.
BATTISTA: Do you think this will end well, Marc?
GERMAIN: De-escalation is, you know, the name of the game here. And clearly, like Ian just said, law enforcement has recognized that the tack to take is to back off and to not escalate the situation. And that's what they're going to do. And ultimately I think it will end well. These are children. There really is no threat to law enforcement, no imminent threat to the children. And they're just going to wait them out.
The sheriff there was quoted as saying, "I just got elected to a four-year term. I got plenty of time to wait." And if that's their attitude they take, and they continue to take, which I'm sure they will, I think that it will end peacefully and I think those kids will get the help that they need.
BATTISTA: She's not here yet, but let me speak for Delilah, quickly. She sort of feels like the police should just walk away from this. That perhaps there is a better person, group, whatever, to handle this situation and that maybe the police shouldn't be involved at this particular point.
CULLUM: Boy, I agree with that, too, Bobbie. I will tell you that what they've done is they've -- you know, they arrested the mother, they put her in with bail that's from $10,000 -- and now the prosecuting attorney is suggesting it go up to $100,000.
These are people that wanted to make it. They didn't talk about the fact that their property had been sold for taxes for $50,000 -- property that was valued at at least $120,000. The mother was, frankly, worried. She didn't want to accept any kind of welfare. And so her worst dreams were realized.
So you've got these kids in there that, right now, see their brother who, even though he's not literally being detained, is in custody. The other sister is on the outside. The mother has bail from $10,000 to $100,000. You know, they are malnutritioned (sic), they are frightened.
And then you look outside of their compound, what are you going to see? You're going to see helicopters, you're going to see news reporters, you're going to see tourists that are coming around there. They've made it such spectacle.
They all ought to back off. And, frankly, this is a time when the community should be coming in and doing something as a good- neighbor thing...
BATTISTA: Well, supposedly neighbors have tried to intervene, and they are sort of greeted with the same hostility, and have been for quite some time from this family.
PUNNETT: And I think that's a key point.
CULLUM: Well then maybe what they should do is maybe go back and have the sister come over, the other -- show that the brother is doing better. They should be hearing from their mother. They should be able to get some sort of word that their mother is OK, that there's nothing wrong with their mother.
BATTISTA: We don't know that they're not getting that, either.
PUNNETT: Yes, I have to say...
CULLUM: But we don't know that they are.
PUNNETT: Well, I would be reluctant to be too critical of the local authorities, not knowing the whole history, and the fact that, as I understand it, in fact, many neighbors had made an attempt to reach out to this family, and they were rebuffed as well.
This is perhaps a unique group of people with a unique outlook that cannot be helped easily. I do think Blanquita's point, though -- the key point is something which we should all remember in trying to dissolve some of the acrimony or potential tragedy of these situations, and that is to concentrate on making sure that community is not disconnected from the government authorities that are involved. And so...
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PUNNETT: ... the more they can do that -- the more they can get the people that these folks are familiar with -- they're not unfriendly faces, they may have heard of these names. The more they can keep that and keep some of the strangers away, the more, I think, the situation will calm down.
BATTISTA: Well, and there is, Marc, an awful lot of antigovernment sentiment in that part of country, as we know. I mean, gosh, how does this happen? How does it happen that people just get increasingly more paranoid?
GERMAIN: I work in talk radio, and I have a belief that, in areas of the country like that, short-wave radio and AM talk radio is promulgated by people that have conspiracy theories about the government, about how the world is against people who want to protect their liberty and their freedoms. And I think that that gives people the belief, paranoid delusional belief, that the government will harm you. That they're there to take away your sovereignty and your property, and that the only thing that you have to fight against that is guns. And that's why you see all these kids being armed with -- armed to the teeth.
CULLUM: That's preposterous.
GERMAIN: Well it's a fact. It's not preposterous.
CULLUM: No, it is preposterous, because right now we've seen even what happened with Timothy McVeigh with the FBI files. Now, if anybody questions that, what are we supposed to be saying? That we're right-wing radical fanatics?
GERMAIN: No, I'm all for...
CULLUM: We have a right to know what happened -- what happened with Ruby Ridge was an outrage. When a mother stands at her doorstep and she's shot down by a sniper and...
GERMAIN: But you're not interested in the outrage of people who are selling illegal guns.
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CULLUM: Oh, but we are. And so how come...
BATTISTA: You guys...
CULLUM: ... you hear about that with cops, though, the Chinese shipping group that brought in guns -- over 2,400 guns to California.
I think that what you're saying is that, unless we have selective freedom of speech that we have some sort of outrage in covering the news.
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GERMAIN: I'm not saying that...
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GERMAIN: I'm not saying they should be censored, Blanquita.
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BATTISTA: Let me -- you guys, let me interrupt for just a minute because Delilah has fought her way through the traffic and is here now. And -- there she is.
DELILAH JONES, MEDIA NETWORKS HOST: Traffic was so much fun.
BATTISTA: Yes, and the rain.
She is the author of the book "Love Someone Today: Encouragement and Inspiration for Times of our lives."
Good to have you here. Go ahead, weigh in on this if you'd like.
JONES: Thank you, thank you.
Well, I kind of came in late on the conversation, so I've missed a lot.
BATTISTA: Yes, it's the -- yes, the Idaho situation, the standoff there.
JONES: You know, we have six kids in our household, and three of those six children are children that we've adopted through the state. They're special needs kids. And one thing that they did for us when we went through the adoption process is they sent us to a class called ENSOR: escalation training where we had to go through this program that was several weeks long of learning how to de-escalate our children when they were getting out of control, but mostly how to de- escalate ourselves because when they're getting out of control, you know, we have a tendency to try to control them and make them behave. And that's just adding fuel to the fire.
And it's been a miraculous things in the dynamics of our family. Instead of making a situation that's volatile more volatile. Instead of taking people that are angry and freaking out and making them more angry and more freaked out, you learn how to back off, take a deep breath and reassess the situation.
And it makes sense across the board, if you ask me. I mean, I know that's simplistic, but adding ammunition and dangerous weapons to a situation that's already dangerous isn't going to fix it if you ask me.
PUNNETT: Well, and it would be nice to think that the family there has even basic coping skills which, from what we're hearing, we don't even necessarily get an impression of that. Back to Blanquita's point earlier, though too, I think it's important, I'm kind of big on personal responsibility and I think everybody involved in the Ruby Ridge situation has to take responsibility for their part in it.
And it's just -- we have to not accept people to say -- allowing them to say, well, I'm just a victim of the government, and I didn't do anything and suddenly the government showed up. When it comes to a local situation especially, the more we can keep the big government out, keep it small, keep it simple, the easier it's going to get resolved because there are a lot of people out there who have this built in mentality that as soon as somebody's here from the authorities anything goes. I can shoot them, I can hurt them.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: But Idaho is an interesting area because, you know, these are a lot of people, especially the part of the country in the northern part of Idaho that they've really gotten away because they want to be free spirits.
When you talk about guns in Idaho a lot of the people that are living in these areas are hunters. They're not out there trying to have militia compounds. These are just people that live off the land. In fact, what they talked about some of these kids that they were they skilled at being able to go out and shooting deer and be able to eat them and survive.
So I think we have to look at this in a different way, and we can't look at people who are independent always as being radical. These are free thinkers, and this country was founded on that.
PUNNETT: I'm not equating independent with radical. What I'm saying is everybody has to take responsibility for their actions. And when you start firing at the police, you can't just completely claim that, you know, the cops were there, and so you...
GERMAIN: Nor should you...
PUNNETT: I think there's a tragedy in accepting that.
GERMAIN: Nor should you ask the police to back off.
BATTISTA: Let me do a couple of e-mails quickly here. "There has to be an easier less intrusive way to resolve this. The current tactics only further fuel the children's fear of authority."
And Martha C. on our message board says, "I'm proud of those kids for standing their ground under such horrible conditions. They would not be unsupervised children with guns had the police not arrested their mother and sent them into a terrifying situation."
All right, the bell has sounded, we're moving on. We've got to take a break. A little bit later, a lesson in the art of tipping. Find out if you're too generous or just plain stingy. And tell us how much you tip by taking the TALKBACK LIVE on-line viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL keyword CNN. Up next, will Timothy McVeigh break his date with the executioner? We'll be back.
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BATTISTA: In February President Bush dedicated the Oklahoma City Memorial Center. Visitors to the $5 million center can see victims' belongings such as eyeglasses, car keys, watches and the pink and white sneakers of a 4-year-old girl. They can also hear the explosion on a recording on a water resources board meeting that was happening across the street.
Welcome back to Friday free-for-all, round two. Timothy McVeigh a man apparently not eager to die anymore. He has asked for another delay in his execution now scheduled for June 11. His lawyers accuse the government of withholding evidence but Attorney General John Ashcroft says nothing in the FBI's documents raises any doubt about McVeigh's guilt. Marc, is he going to get this stay, do you think? Should he get it?
GERMAIN: He will probably get some kind of delay because we always want, in our system of justice, to err on the side of accused. And with Timothy McVeigh he's the convicted. He's admitted to his crimes. He's confessed on a number of different occasions. And his book details all the things that he did to create that bomb and to set it off.
There really is no doubt, and there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that he's responsible for the crime. But there has to be some integrity to the system and part of the integrity to the system is that both sides get equal access to all the information.
It's troubling that the government sat on 4,000 documents, but I don't know what's in those documents. I'd be hard pressed to believe that there's anything in the documents that will change the facts of the case or his guilt.
PUNNETT: I don't have any doubt there's nothing to be found in the documents that will exculpate the actions of Timothy McVeigh and everything that Marc said is very valid. He's already confessed to the crime as far as I think the whole country is concerned.
But I have sort of a problem with the system here in that if this is the trial of the century in a way, for the government, this is federal government's first attempt at a death penalty case in 40 years, and they can't cross all their t's and dot their i's on this one, with 1,000 lawyers and an unlimited budget to get this right, with scrutiny of the American people and the entire world on our system while we do it.
If we can't get this one exactly right, how much faith with can we have in these other death penalty cases?
GERMAIN: You're never going to get everything -- you're never going to get everything cleared and all the i's dotted and the t's crossed in any case. The more your examine something the more likely you are to find inconsistencies but that doesn't really negate the fact that he's guilty, that he's confessed to the crime, and that he should be put to death.
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PUNNETT: For the lesser people out there -- for the people who didn't get that attention how can we be so confident in their prosecutions if we have something this major involved in the case of something like Timothy McVeigh?
CULLUM: You raise a good point there. And I think even furthermore is that everyone that everyone that believes in McVeigh's guilt wants to see this guy die. And some people, like me, would like to see him die in a much worse way than a lethal injection, but there are people out there that believe there were more people involved with this crime.
And to the extent that we go the extra mile to find out who they are we will get more justice for the family members and for the American people. This can never happen again. And shame on the fact that this -- these documents were delayed. The American people have to have full confidence in believing in the most important branch of law enforcement, Federal Bureau of Investigation. What happened? How did it happen?
They knew for at least six months that there were more documents. Whether or not they apply or they don't apply, there was still negligence. And if there are more people involved they must be held accountable. And certainly people want to see McVeigh executed, but not until we get all the information, because then justice truly is denied to those families members and this country.
BATTISTA: Let me get Delilah in here.
JONES: Well, I have to agree with everything that's been said so far. If you circumvent the system, he's admitted to his guilt, he's got the book, blah, blah, blah. But if you negate the process because of that, then what's to say you can't negate the process in other cases in other places. And you have to follow through on the process, because like you said, in lesser cases where there's no money, where there's no publicity, or DNA evidence is now proving their innocence, if you negate the process, what can happen then?
PUNNETT: And let's talk about John Doe No. 2, who has come up here as kind of a tangent...
JONES: No. 2 and 3.
PUNNETT: Yeah. But specifically, No. 2, which, you know, now is the big question is how come the government drew the conclusion that they did? That just because they couldn't find him, that he didn't exist? I mean, how odd is that?
JONES: But do you really think that was the conclusion they drew?
PUNNETT: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: ... Elohim City, and there's a question about why people were not allowed to testify, like Carol Howe, who was supposedly working as an agent undercover with the ATF. And people want to know, were there more explosives in there? Why can't people have the answers? The American people are strong enough to hear the truth. We're a tough and feisty country and we want justice.
BATTISTA: Let me go to audience quickly here. Kenneth, you had a question or comment?
KENNETH: Yeah, isn't the purpose of the process to get to the conclusion? And they already know the conclusion is he's guilty, so why bother with the in between? I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Because there are more people alive, right, that they may need him alive in order to prove that. But he's -- are any of you bothered by his sudden change? I mean, at one point in time he was all ready to die. He wanted to be a martyr, this kind of thing. All of a sudden, now he really just wants to do this because he wants to see the...
GERMAIN: This is just another opportunity.
BATTISTA: Yes, he wants to see the government sort of wind itself around itself.
GERMAIN: This is another opportunity to thumb your nose at the United States government and our system of justice. And I don't think he should be allowed to do it and get away with it. And I think all this talk about John Doe No. 2 or John Doe No. 3 is just promulgating all these conspiracy theories that there really is no evidence of, that there are people who have...
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PUNNETT: Wait, no evidence? There's eyewitness testimony! How can you say there's no evidence?
CULLUM: Right.
JONES: Yeah, I think there's plenty of evidence. And what you said was the government came to the conclusion. Do you really believe they came to the conclusion, or do you believe they want us to believe that that's the conclusion they came to?
PUNNETT: Fair point.
BATTISTA: Couple of message boards. Vince says: "The survivors deserve better than this. For their sake and despite the FBI's incompetence, the execution should proceed as planned." Anne says: "Please listen to Tim. He may have perpetuated violence. but someone had to. We all need a wakeup call to prevent Oklahoma City from happening again. The people need to take control -- now."
CULLUM: That's outrageous. Anyone that can support him in any way is as much of a brutal animal.
BATTISTA: We have free speech on this show, but you have to take the heat.
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BATTISTA: All right. We have to take a break. Let me go quickly to the audience since I haven't gotten them in. Here, Martin.
MARTIN: Thank you very much. I think people have really lost sight of really what we're talking about here. Everything has to be done correctly. Whether or not he is guilty, we all know he's guilty, but it has to be done right. We can't have lynch mobs out here. We have to have justice and justice has to be done the right way.
BATTISTA: OK.
GERMAIN: He had a trial. They went through all the motions. He had a defense attorney that was paid for by the state. He had every opportunity to seek...
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BATTISTA: Well, there may be more to come, is what we're finding out. All right, we have to take a break. When we come back: twins in trouble, the president's daughters. Is their business any of your business? We'll be back.
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BATTISTA: Round three: the president's daughters. Both Jenna and Barbara Bush have been cited in Texas for misdemeanor alcohol violations. For Jenna, it is the second time in a little month than a month. The White House has criticized journalists for asking about the incident, saying it's a private family matter. But are they fair game at this point -- Blanquita?
CULLUM: Well, you know, I want to be able to say they're not fair game, because they're conservatives, they're Republicans, and I am too. But unfortunately, these kids are the kids of the president. I have good feeling and good faith in the family, that they're going to deal with it and these little girls are going to grow up real, real quick. But it is hard to live in a glass house. It is hard to have to travel around as a 19-year-old and have group of Secret Service people as your chaperons. But I think that they will grow up. I think it's unfair that we maybe blow it up more than it needs to be. I think that they get an awful lot more press than -- I think Howard Kurtz talked about this in an article -- than maybe what they deserve. But certainly, I think it's going to shake up pretty quick. GERMAIN: Blanquita, three times since January. If you had -- I don't know if you have children, but if you have children...
CULLUM: I have two. I have two daughters.
GERMAIN: If you had a 19-year-old daughter who got involved with, you know, problems with alcohol three times just since January, would you think that's something that should just be glossed over, and hope that they'll just grow up and be OK?
CULLUM: Did you ever go to college?
GERMAIN: I did.
CULLUM: I went to the University of Texas, actually, which is kind of a party school. And I think a lot of kids in the dorm...
BATTISTA: And you're a party girl.
(LAUGHTER)
CULLUM: Well of course, I'm just like you, girl!
(LAUGHTER)
CULLUM: But I will tell you, I agree with you...
BATTISTA: I'm pleading the Fifth.
CULLUM: I would read the riot act to them, like any mother would do that. And it's a little more difficult when you have to read them the riot act and you're the president.
BATTISTA: Well, they've been summoned to Camp David. We know that, and we know that Grandma Bar is going to be there.
CULLUM: Oh, look out!
BATTISTA: They're in big trouble now.
GERMAIN: What I find a little condescending is a lot of people in the media talk about them as girls. Nineteen-year-old girls.
CULLUM: They are girls.
GERMAIN: No they're not. They're women, Blanquita.
CULLUM: How old are your kids? Do you have kids?
GERMAIN: I do. I have a 6-year-old daughter and a 4-year-old son.
CULLUM: Wait until they get past 18 and trust me, oh, I want to talk to you.
JONES: Wait a second. My son's 6'2" and I still call him my baby boy.
CULLUM: There you go. There you go, Delilah.
GERMAIN: Well, the media shouldn't be referring to them as girls. They also did the same thing when they talked about -- Bill Clinton's concubine, I've forgotten her name already.
CULLUM: Oh, little Monica.
BATTISTA: Monica.
PUNNETT: You're the only one in America who has.
(LAUGHTER)
GERMAIN: This wasn't a girl. This is a women, just like the Gore daughters are women. And...
(CROSSTALK)
GERMAIN: They need to be held responsible for their actions. And we shouldn't just laugh it off and say, oh, this is what all college students do.
BATTISTA: Well, you know, I'll be...
(CROSSTALK)
GERMAIN: Not all college students use fake IDs.
BATTISTA: It's interesting to note that yesterday Grandma Barbara Bush was giving a luncheon in Indianapolis -- speaking at some sort of luncheon in Indianapolis, and she was quoted as saying -- you know, she has that wonderful, self-deprecating humor -- but she said that he is, speaking of George W., that he's getting back some of his own on this a little bit.
PUNNETT: Spoken like a mom.
JONES: Doesn't that sound like a true mom? My mom used to say, "I hope you get one just like you." Now I got six.
GERMAIN: Too much of this is being laughed off and is being revealed as kind of cutesy, as though it's something we expect all 19 year-old women to do. And I don't think we should. I don't think it's funny. I think it's dangerous, and I think it's reprehensible and they should be punished appropriately.
BATTISTA: Tori on the phone in Georgia, go ahead.
TORI: Yes, I just wanted to say that about 85 percent of college students use fake I.D.s. And I go to the University of Georgia, and everybody does it. I mean, the media is just blowing this out of proportion.
GERMAIN: Well, I don't believe everybody does it. And that's part of problem with this culture is that we laugh off drunk driving, we laugh off using fake I.D.s to buy alcohol. It's not funny and we need to enforce the laws that prevent people from doing things to hurt others.
BATTISTA: Let me just get Delilah in here.
JONES: I just wanted to make the point that I don't think anybody is laughing it off. But I do think that we need to stop accepting as normal that which is harmful. And if you look at statistics for death there are more people killed in America in one year by drunk drivers than in all the time we were in Vietnam.
Traffic accidents are the No. 1 one cause of death in children. So I don't think we should laugh off and I don't think we should overly punish them because they're the president's daughters or make a big thing out of it. But what I do think as a society we need to step back and go, why am I talking about this or accepting as quote "normal" that which is potentially deadly.
And we need to look at the fact that we're an addicted society. One out of four families is affected by the disease of alcoholism. It kills people. It kills families. It nearly killed me. So to say oh, well everybody doing it. Well, you know I was a 19-year-old drinking and it got me into a lot of trouble as I got older. So, we need to look at the reality that we are accepting as normal, something that is potentially deadly.
PUNNETT: I think it's important to point out here too that in the case of these daughters, I think the whole country would like to see them learn from both the tragedy of their mother who was involved in an accident that resulted in the death of another teenager, and the lesson of their father who was addicted to substances, however one describes those.
And so it would be great to think that they are going to be better from having grown out of that experience, but I'm afraid that's the struggle the whole country's going through.
CULLUM: But also they have to learn from their own lessons. How many of us when we were 18 and 19 years old and 20 years old made mistakes? And the thing of it is they hopefully will learn from these mistakes and having good parents can help them see their mistakes especially when they live in a glass bubble.
BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here. Kurt?
KURT: Well, I think that, personally, that George Bush passed that law to change the drinking age in Texas from 18 up to 21. He's reaping what he sows. And the twins have got to realize that the fact that they are living under the glass now and that everybody's watching them and that they can't do what they want to do all the time.
GERMAIN: And in a certain respect they set an example. You know, we like to believe that our first family is -- sets an example for all Americans. I remember people like Blanquita who were talking about our president setting the example, and the life that he leads in the White House and his family.
CULLUM: And I don't disagree.
GERMAIN: Well, then...
(BELL RINGING)
BATTISTA: That's the bell. Last word goes to Shannon here.
SHANNON: I just want to say, since they are in the public arena they're held to a higher standard than most people. Yes, they're private citizens, but they know they're going to be made an example of because their father's the President and they should really know better. They have a problem that needs to be addressed.
BATTISTA: All right, we have to take a break again and when we come back a free ride for Casey Martin. Are you teed off about that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Born in 1972, Casey Martin went to Stanford University after graduation as Valedictorian if his high school. He played on the Stanford golf team, where later Tiger Woods would play. He has won $6,433 in eight tournaments so far this year.
Welcome back, round four. Casey at the tee box. OK, enough with the puns here. Pro golfer Casey Martin wins the right to use his golf cart during PGA tournaments. The standard rule now as you know is for players to walk the course. Some say rules are rules, but shouldn't the disabled Martin get the break? I'm going to start with the audience on this one, their pretty vocal. Vernon, you are a golfer, you are in town for a tournament. What do you think?
VERNON: I think he should be allowed to use the cart. It's time for the PGA to change. They are mired in tradition. Golf is about skills. It's about the actual shot. It has little to do with endurance, a little bit, but not very much. It's about the shot and he should be allowed to ride.
BATTISTA: And Chris, you disagree?
CHRIS: I think golf has a lot to do with endurance. There are a lot of factors that come into the play when you are playing in a tournament. I was born with cerebral palsy and I would love to participate in the Cirque du Soleil or a number of things, but when you try to make it your profession, that makes a difference. You are trying to make a living at it, so you are limited on what you can do.
PUNNETT: Yes, but how far do we go with that, when say, somebody comes along and says I don't want to hire you for even a desk job because you have cerebral palsy because I don't want the liability of that. I understand the position that it's weird to have the Supreme Court deciding golf rules and I am kind of uncomfortable with that too.
But how far do you go with allowing an organization to set those kinds of rules. Would you feel the same way if they said, we just don't want Tiger Woods because he is just the wrong color, and there was a time when that would have been something which a court would have had to have settled.
CHRIS: There are certain laws that protect you -- protect me as an individual with a physical disability. There are certain laws that protect women...
PUNNETT: Right.
CHRIS: Because of their gender.
PUNNETT: I totally agree.
CHRIS: So there are laws to protect that.
PUNNETT: And I think that's what they are talking about, nuancing the civil rights laws to include somebody like Casey Martin. Certainly that's Bob Dole's argument, that it's a civil rights case, not just a case of trying to, you know, stick the nose under the tent of the PGA rules.
BATTISTA: Marc, were you trying to get in here?
GERMAIN: Yes, what a great missed opportunity for the PGA to hold Casey Martin up as, you know, a great success story of someone that overcomes adversity and can still get out on a golf course and with a stick, hit a ball into a hole. And that's really what the game of golf is.
CULLUM: What about guys that have a bad back? What about guys that have, let's say they've had a hernia? Are we going to try to give people -- I mean he didn't qualify for the PGA, by the way, but shall we make it preferential treatment? Or shall we make it an equal opportunity? ,Shall we make participants in, let's say, the Special Olympics be able to participate in the Olympics?
Should we make all the women's sports now make them men and women's sports? Should the Supreme Court now make the determination on what the rules of baseball are? Or the rules of football? I think that we have made a big mistake here that is going to come back and because we thought we were trying to be nice, it's going to backfire.
Sports -- is it about skill? Is it about that kind of thing that people work for? Think of what people go through the Olympics? I think that we are making a mistake here.
(CROSSTALK)
PUNNETT: I agree, but the courts have been involved in football. The courts have been involved in baseball. The courts have stepped in where it seemed like the purview...
CULLUM: But not like this. Are you going to say that -- OK, so shall we have, let's say, women go in and play football with the guys in the NFL? Should we do that because we want to make it politically correct? Are we going to do this to be politically correct? Give me a break.
PUNNETT: No, no, it's not a matter of politically correct.
CULLUM: Are we going to say that walking doesn't count?
PUNNETT: No, what I am saying is people like Greg Norman, people who are professional golfers have been, you know, split on this as well. They are coming out and saying, hey, there shouldn't be any reason why he can't ride a golf cart.
CULLUM: Why don't we allow people to be able to get in the game according to the rules of the game and play the game. I mean, why are we trying to make it politically correct?
PUNNETT: Blanquita, then if the rules of the game say nobody who has any Hispanic background would be allowed to play, and especially as a woman, would you accept that? You wouldn't accept that.
CULLUM: That's baloney. No, because it has nothing do with skill.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Let me do a couple of e-mails and get Delilah in here, too. She is so polite.
JONES: I have never golfed and I don't like watching golf and I couldn't imagine why anybody would fight to play golf. But if it's your passion and you love it and it's important in to you, why the heck should you be denied it because you have a physical disability? That's absurd.
CULLUM: Because we are talking about big competition here, we're talking...
(BELL RINGING)
CULLUM: ... about like the Olympics of golf.
BATTISTA: All right a couple of e-mails. Greg in Idaho says, "that the physical aspect of golf is such a big issue then make all the pros walk and carry their own clubs."
GERMAIN: There you go!
BATTISTA: Sally says, "I think they should all be allowed to use a golf court. It's an illusion that the game of golf is physical." Ooh, before everybody jumps on that one, all the golfers out there, we'll take a break here and move on to the topic of tipping. When is it a compliment for good service, and when is it something akin to extortion? Are we expected to tip everyone, by the way? Chris, the question for today is...
CHRIS: Something that we all can relate to, Bobbie. How much do you tip in restaurants? That's the question of the day. Please take a vote at cnn.com/talkback, the AOL keyword is CNN. "Free For All Friday" will be back right after these messages.
BATTISTA: Should I tip Chris for that?
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BATTISTA: All right. When you travel or go out on the town, do you think everyone has his or her hand out? In New York, a just- released tip sheet says diners should tip anywhere now from 15 to 25 percent. The city's Department of Consumer Affairs that servers rely on tips for their salaries. Are customers really expected to subsidize the restaurant? And what if you get really really bad service, then what do you do?
PUNNETT: I think it's always up to us, the consumer. And I think tips are -- it's a good system for the restaurant-goer to use. I just, coincidentally last night, I was going through my wife's new cellular phone, and it has a tip calculator in the cell phone. So you can figure out -- and it starts at 15 percent, that's the mark that comes with it.
You can change it, but 15 percent was what it said on the cell phone, which was still standard. I think 15 percent to 20 percent is great. The only time I ever tip 25 percent, and I don't know how you all feel about that, I will tip 25 percent when I am getting actually a very low bill.
If I'm in the restaurant getting breakfast and the bill is 7 bucks, I will leave the person 3 if they came back and forth from the counter 15 times to help me. But otherwise, 20 percent of a significant dinner bill is still not chump change.
BATTISTA: Yes, we were just talking during the break, Blanquita, that -- I mean, I waitressed my way all through college and so I've got a soft spot for this story. Walk a mile in my shoes before you start criticizing the whole tipping thing.
CULLUM: Absolutely, absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: By the way, this is what we hate -- the tip jars.
JONES: The tip jars -- where they do nothing and then they want a tip for doing nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Now, as a former waitress I resent that.
CULLUM: I don't have a problem with tipping and I don't have a problem with giving at least 20 percent. I think women give a little bit lower tips than the men but I like customer service and I think a lot of people out there like to know that if they are going to give the tip, they would like a little customer service.
They'd like to have them, make sure that the food is brought to them appropriately and that they give a little extra service. Heck, you always feel like giving someone a little extra service if they are nice to you. You know, we've lost the "customer's always right" attitude. You go into restaurants, sometimes you feel like they feel like you're doing them a favor to sit down at the restaurant.
So, if we are going to give the tips, I mean, you want to the know that the tip that we are going to give them right now, if they want our money, they're going to have to give us good service.
BATTISTA: Let me get Delilah in here and then Marc.
JONES: This is a blanket statement they're making in New York, right -- saying the new standard that we're implementing, but there's no really implementation. It's still just a suggestion, right? So why don't we make a new standard that people adhere to things like, oh, say, drinking laws or drunk driving. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if we could just issue those standards and folks would follow through on them?
PUNNETT: You know, in France, just last week, they issued a request on the part of the service industry that waiters in France be nice to American tourists.
(LAUGHTER)
PUNNETT: And they put out this big PR campaign just to the service industry saying please be nice. Sometimes in a restaurant...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: That may be a reflection on Americans. I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
PUNNETT: I just want them to be there. I mean, I just want them to show up.
BATTISTA: Marc...
CULLUM: But you don't give as much tip in Europe as you do in the United States.
BATTISTA: That's true.
CULLUM: In America we're very generous.
BATTISTA: We're very generous.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: ... give little baby tips. We give tips in London in the cabbies that are much smaller. We're a very good country about giving tips.
BATTISTA: Marc, let me get you in here quickly... GERMAIN: You know, it's pretty straightforward when it comes to waiters and waitresses: 15 to 20 percent is all what we feel comfortable giving. But what I find ridiculous is when I'll go to a restaurant or I'll drive 15 miles to a restaurant, and then I'll pay a guy 3.50 to park my car the last 100 feet. And that's what we have to do here in Los Angeles. I'm sure it's similar in other cities around the country.
BATTISTA: And across the street. Right, you can see...
PUNNETT: You know, and I go back to the tip jars...
GERMAIN: That's the part I feel outraged by.
PUNNETT: You know, the real outrage of this is when I went through recently a drive-thru at a coffee place and they had a tip jar in the drive-thru! What do they do?
(LAUGHTER)
BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience again.
PUNNETT: Thank you very much.
BATTISTA: Martin? Martin?
MARTIN: Hey, like I said before, anybody who wants to know how it is to live on tips needs to do it for two weeks, and you will understand how it is to have to live off of 2.50 an hour, but you have to live off the tips. I mean, everybody needs to understand that.
BATTISTA: You got it. All right, we're taking a break, and when we come back, we'll -- we asked you guys how much do you tip. We'll get your answers to the interactive vote when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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BATTISTA: And there it is, one of those 20-year-old pictures of me there in "TIME" magazine back in 1982 after we started up. There I am: 21 and looking good.
(LAUGHTER)
BATTISTA: So it is -- yeah, look at me hair. I had the Farrah Fawcett hair going. Yeah, look at that. OK. Moving on.
(LAUGHTER)
Let's check the results of our online viewer vote. The question was how much do you tip, and we kind of gave you four choices there. And 15 percent came out on top: 45 percent of you tip that much. And 38 percent are right behind it, 20 percent.
PUNNETT: Who are those cheapskates at 10 percent?
BATTISTA: Yeah, I know. That's more than I would have thought.
CULLUM: Who are the liars that say they're paying 25 percent?
BATTISTA: All right, you guys, that'll do it for this Friday. And Ian, you've got one last word.
PUNNETT: I was just going to say if Jenna -- if Barbara Bush can straighten out her twin daughters this weekend, let's send her into Idaho and see whether she can resolve that one.
JONES: No, send her into my house to talk to my teens.
GERMAIN: Give her a 25 percent tip.
BATTISTA: Marc, we're out of control. We're out of control. Marc and Blanquita...
CULLUM: Ring the bell. Ring the bell.
BATTISTA: Delilah -- Delilah, Ian, thank you all so much for being here. Appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.
JONES: Thank you.
GERMAIN: Thank you.
JONES: Thank you.
BATTISTA: And thank you at home for watching. Have a great weekend. We'll see you on Monday. Join us then.
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