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CNN Talkback Live

Is Rap Music Artistic Expression or Exploitation?

Aired June 12, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rap has reached the mainstream like baseball, hot dogs and apple pie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Mainstream, maybe, but still disturbing to a lot of people are the anger, profanity and misogynism rapped by some artists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY RICHMAN, ATTORNEY: Are we jumping to conclusions because we don't like the tenor of their lyrics?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: What about the tenor of lawlessness?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON GEORGE, AUTHOR, "HIP HOP AMERICA": There's this image of rappers as these ultra aggressive and confrontational and mean guys.

FRANK WILLIAMS, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE SOURCE": Your fans are going to expect you to be that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Now more than 20 years old, is hip-hop an artistic expression of reality or does it undermine the culture? Is it music to your ears?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. A hip-hop summit is underway at this hour in New York. Along with artists and promoters, the event is drawing such varied personalities as Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan and Democratic congresswoman Maxine Waters. One of the summit's goals is to improve the image of hip- hop.

Joining us today, Conrad Muhammad, founder of CHHANGE, which stands for Conscious Hip Hop Activism Necessary for Global Empowerment. Conrad is known as the hip-hop minister. Also with us, Assata Wright, political editor for "The Source" magazine. The magazine is co-sponsoring today's summit.

Thank you both for joining us.

CONRAD MUHAMMAD, FOUNDER, CHHANGE: Thank you for having me.

BATTISTA: Minister Muhammad, let me start with you, because I think the general perception, the general public perception of hip-hop music is that it is negative and violent, and therefore, its image needs to be cleaned up. Is that accurate?

MUHAMMAD: Well, it is not accurate. And that's the irony of this conversation. When Afrika Bambaataa, Kool Herc and Grand Mixer D. ST, Grandmaster Caz, and some of the early rappers, Grand Master Flash, founded this vibrant youth culture, these truly were men of the ghetto, men who had been in gangs, who had seen the lives of the friends around them destroyed. They created a vibrant youth art form that was an alternative to violence. And the sad irony is today rap is wonderful, it's healthy.

When you see people like Common and Lauryn Hill and the Roots, there are so many positive people in rap, but it's being undermined by this seedy underbelly of the music business that really is not representing hip-hop culture when it makes records and promotes a culture of violence. This is completely contrary to what the culture originated as, and there are people like myself who believe that this seedy underbelly is degrading to the African-American community, to women. And if we could just isolate and focus the aspect of rap that's damaging and destroying young people's lives, then we can separate it from the positive.

So this is not a conversation about hip hop, but it is a conversation about rap that promotes pimps, hoes, Bs, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) thugs, because it gives the impression that the black community is a petri dish for immorality, and I reject that stereotype. And we have to stop that in the black community.

BATTISTA: That seedy underbelly, as you described it, is the element in the music industry in this genre that sells.

MUHAMMAD: Well, it's interesting because 80 percent of hip hop is bought by white youth, primarily suburban youth. What we are saying to our young black and Latino rappers is that we don't believe it's good for white youth in Connecticut and in Rhode Island and California and Ohio to get to know black people through our self- criminalizing of young people.

For example, if white America only gets to know black America through negative and violent images of rappers -- mind you most of them are not reflecting the reality of their life, many of them come from middle-class homes. And when you go to the background of many of these rappers, they are actually, I believe, modern day "Sambos," and they're actually shining and Tomming and disgracing black people in order to make money. And that's an outrage, and we should be just as angry about this as we were when D.W. Griffith came out with the movie "Birth of a Nation."

It's time for the black community, the black church, black organizations to express outrage. Don't get angry at a white corporation who will degrade African-Americans, or because in Texaco's corporation, some racist e-mails went out -- and we turned a blind eye to black young people who are degrading their own community. We've got to stop this.

BATTISTA: Let me get Assata in here.

Assata, do you agree that part of the problem here is that, you know, this whole culture, or this genre of music is feeding what people think is the sum total of black culture?

ASSATA WRIGHT, "THE SOURCE": I do. I actually agree with a large portion of what the minister said. I do think that there is a segment of rap culture that tends to sell -- you're right about that, it does sell a lot. Oh, and one thing that I disagree with Minister Conrad Muhammad about is I do think that a lot of young black people do consume hip-hop. And unfortunately, they are consuming the most negative, or overconsuming the most negative elements of rap, and those are the elements that are showing women, black women specifically as sexually loose and promiscuous, and the men as gangsters, and you know, people who are not law-abiding citizens and so forth. So I do think that that is a problem.

But I think one of the reasons why we're in the situation we're in now, and why we're having this summit is because there is an enormous disconnect between parts of the black community that essentially abandoned the community after integration. Basically in the '70s and '80s, you saw a lot of some of the same people who the minister was referring to -- some of the religious leaders, some of the black politicians -- abandon the black underclass, and left those sections of the community to fend for themselves. So now you have some of those same people who abandoned the community because they were economically able to get out of it who are now saying, "Oh, gosh, you know, we don't like this hip-hop that we hear that segment of the community producing."

BATTISTA: But at the same time, it is the music industry that's making billions of dollars off this kind of music. Do you have faith that they are sincere in their -- I mean, you know, they're running a business.

MUHAMMAD: If I could weigh in on that, I tell you, that is sort of the problem that I have with the summit that Mr. Simmons is having. You know, my organization, a movement for change, campaign for dignity had a summit a month ago, and we addressed these issues. We brought these issues to national attention. Mr. Simmons boycotted that summit and urged the entire music industry to boycott it. We did have a significant presence of music industry representatives and the community came out.

The problem I have with the notion that the music industry can police itself is like saying Hollywood will police itself. And there's a reason why people like Senator Lieberman, and even though Mr. Simmons criticizes C. DeLores Tucker, a black, proud grandmother that justly and rightfully said, "We've got to stop degrading our community." I don't think the music industry is in a position to police itself. I applaud the summit. I hope that good will come from it. I hope that people like Minister Louis Farrakhan and Maxine Waters, Congresswoman Maxine Waters will be able to influence the...

BATTISTA: We might add that you were not invited to participate in this conference. Isn't that correct?

MUHAMMAD: I've not only been invited, but I've been told not to show up. But the point is, I say to our black elders and black leaders, you do our community and young people a disservice when you repeat the lie. And it's really a lie. Yes, many times in the past, black civil rights movements, the black middle-class have abandoned the black community, but I've worked all my life with the black community. And what I've noticed is that the brothers for years that I worked with that came out of prison, the brothers that were in gangs, the brothers that were truly poor and impoverished, they always looked for a positive way out.

But when you look at some of these rappers, you find out their fathers are judges, presidents of companies, Biggy Smalls, who was projected as an urban thug, a crack dealer, his mother was a registered nurse. That's middle-class by any stretch of the imagination. Tupac Shakur, who was known as a gangster rapper -- he was much more profound than that -- but he was born in the Black Panther party for self-defense of an extraordinary political consciousness.

These rappers are not reflecting the reality of the black community. You name one black community in this country where most of the people are pimps, players, hoes, strip dancers, and I'll get off this television screen. It has become profitable to project the African-American community in an improper and a degrading light, and it seems to me it's quite hypocritical to accuse the police of racial profiling -- which they do profile black people. But when rappers get on the screen and say, "I'm a thug. I'm a gangster. I shoot. I kill," then that is a license for the police to put them under surveillance. John Gotti was a gangster. He told the world he was a plumber.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here. Let me do Cara really quickly, because you have some concerns.

CARA: Definitely. I think that the line has to be drawn where it's not only a form of artistic expression, but black women are not being degraded, women aren't being degraded. We mentioned earlier that it's not only in the black hip-hop world but also in heavy metal and rock. Somewhere somebody has to decide that pouring champagne over women, women dancing half naked in bathtubs just will not be accepted any longer. That's my problem with the hip-hop culture.

BATTISTA: All right, I've got to take a break. The question today: Do you think the media is fair to rap music? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL keyword, CNN. While there, check out my note, send an e-mail. And we have something new for you to do today. If you want instant access to TALKBACK LIVE, use the AOL instant messenger. Those of you who have it put us on your buddy list. Our name is TALKBACK LIVE. Those of you who don't have it, follow the link on our Web site.

In a moment: Can you tone down language and still deliver the message? We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Five members of Congress and FCC chairman Michael Powell said they would join the industry representatives and artists at the hip-hop conference. Democratic representatives Maxine Waters of California, Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, James Clyburn of South Carolina, Earl Hilliard of Alabama and Mississippi's Bennie Thompson plan to attend.

BATTISTA: And I just got an e-mail from Patrick in Massachusetts, who says, "The music industry needs to be policed by the government. It is just out of control." Be careful of what you wish for, Patrick.

But as just noted there in our little factoid coming back from the break, there are a lot of politicians there, Assata, and I wanted to ask you about that quickly. I know they're going to be talking about accountability and image and responsibility and this sort of thing, but do you really expect any sort of policing to come out of this, or even self-policing?

WRIGHT: Well, I would hope the government isn't going to police it. I don't think that we should be policed by the government. I would not be in support of that at all. No other artistic expression is policed by the government, so I don't see why our artistic expression should be.

Now, as far as self-policing, I'm not sure if that's realistic either. I hope that it will be, and I hope that there will be some individuals who will begin to rethink some of their actions and words both on record and off record. And I think that maybe over time we might begin to see some people begin to change what kinds of records they put out, videos they put out, et cetera. But I don't see anything wrong with the community itself deciding that we don't want to support certain kinds of messages.

And one of the things I've been saying for years is if you don't like something, don't buy it. I was telling the minister during break I have a 13-year-old sister, and a lot of times she'll ask for things for her birthday and Christmas, and I know what they're saying: "My parents don't know some of the things that these rappers are saying."

And I'll just tell her, "No, I don't care if your friends have Jay-Z. I don't care if your friends have Mystikal. I'm note going to buy that for you."

BATTISTA: But I'm sure they said that about Elvis Presley back in the '50s, too, "Just don't buy it." But... MUHAMMAD: Let me add to that, though, because I think it is not simply enough for the community to say, "We won't buy this." My 5- year-old son, Conrad Muhammad Jr. came home one day singing Mystikal song, "Shake it Fast." And I couldn't figure out where he got it from and where he learned it from. I knew I didn't play it, his mother didn't play it. Come to find out that his bus driver was playing Hot 97, which has a disgraceful morning show on every morning, where kids are listening to this at 7:00, 8:00 in the morning. So I don't think even good parents that want to shield their children from these kinds of images can be successful.

Here's what I think we're at a point where we need to do. I think that as certain groups in this country, Italian-Americans are saying, "Look, we're tired of playing your 'Sopranos,' your gangsters, 'Godfathers.'" The Jewish community is very strict, in terms of the images that they accept and the portrayals of that community. The homosexual community even is extremely sensitive and well organized.

And I think it's hypocrisy for those in the hip-hop industry who know that there are certain communities that you can't disparage -- and you shouldn't disparage these groups -- but the black community, it's open season on our community. And I think our leadership and our organizations have failed miserably, buying the bill of goods from some of these rappers and moguls, mind you, who are multimillionaires, who act so angst-ridden that they have to speak about our community in this light.

BATTISTA: I think they cozy up to a lot of the leaders in the black community because they, you know, maybe mistakenly...

MUHAMMAD: And that's a very interesting relationship.

BATTISTA: But they mistakenly they think they're spokespeople for young people, that they're going to reach young people.

MUHAMMAD: And that's a critical mistake they're making. They think that if you stand with certain rappers, if you -- you can stand with them, you should stand with them. Our elders should stand with their younger people, but chastise them. The urban youth right now are in trouble. I believe the greatest crisis of the African-American community is crisis of values. And we need leadership who will stand up and challenge the status quo. And even if it offends young people, it perhaps will save our lives. I've been the spiritual mentor to Shyne.

BATTISTA: Let me -- you know, I'm running up against a break, minister.

MUHAMMAD: OK, sure.

BATTISTA: I'm sorry. And I need to bring in another guest here quickly. Ramona Debreaux is with us. She's a DJ -- Debreaux, I'm sorry. She's a DJ for Atlanta's hip-hop radio station Hot 97.5 FM, a different Hot 97 than we were just talking about a few moments ago.

This is a billion dollar industry, Ramona. You know, you guys are the guys that play the music. I just wonder how you come down on this, and what you think radio's responsibility is in terms of the community?

RAMONA DEBREAUX, HOT 97.5 DJ: Well, it is a very difficult situation to be in. I'm on the radio and I'm also the music director of Hot 97.5 as well, so I see the music that comes on the desk before it hits the airwaves. And it's very disturbing to sit through a show and have 12-year-olds requesting a song that advocates not only violence but also drugs.

For instance -- and I'm not going to call out any artists, but it's disturbing to know that someone wants to hear a song that talks about mixing drugs with cough syrup and concocting something that can possibly stop oxygen flow to your brain. That is where the irresponsibility is, as far as the artists are concerned, in my opinion.

However, I will say that African-American music culture has always been shocking. It doesn't matter if you go back to rock, if you go back to every music, every piece of literature, it was always considered something that was just not the norm, and everybody had something to say about it. Miles Davis, they told jazz players that they were -- it was just, "We can't do that. That's too wild."

So I will say that of course, rap music is going to be offensive to those who don't understand it's a culture, but there are just as many responsible rappers out right now who are putting out good product.

BATTISTA: Well, I've got to take a quick break here. And we will talk to a rapper right after the break. Big Gipp is with us from Goodie Mob. We'll bring him out in just a few moments.

Assata Wright, thank you very much for joining us today.

We will ask Big Gipp, by the way: If you clean up rap, does it dilute the message? We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY BREAKING NEWS)

JOIE CHEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Joie Chen at CNN Center. We want to take our viewers now immediately to Daytona Beach, Florida, a courtroom where they're hearing testimony regarding the autopsy photos for the Dale Earnhardt autopsy. On the stand now is his widow. Let's hear from her.

TERESA EARNHARDT, DALE EARNHARDT'S WIDOW: ... already done with other photos of the same nature, the fear that that will happen at any time.

MICHAEL URIBE, WEBSITECITY.COM: But that's a fear you have.

EARNHARDT: Yes, it is.

URIBE: It's a fear, but that's fear. That's not the feeling that you just...

EARNHARDT: It's pain, it's torture.

URIBE: Stemming from the fear, the hate of media?

EARNHARDT: No. Stemming from the fear and the invasion that could happen if this, these photos were ever viewed. They cannot be just viewed, that's not possible, not in this day and time.

URIBE: The law permits that, though, but you're saying that's still violating, and your position is also that not only do you want the law to stand as it is to permit viewing, you are also objecting now that even though autopsy photographs are viewable with good cause you want your autopsy photographs of your deceased husband removed from that pool...

MR. RUMBERGER, EARNHARDT ATTORNEY: We would object to this. We would object to the harassing. We would object to this whole line of questioning. We would suggest respectfully that Mrs. Earnhardt has been put through enough in the last four or five months. She does not need to culminate in this kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), harassment, and absolutely asinine, inane questioning.

JUDGE: Probably went beyond the bounds of a legal objection, Mr. Rumberger. Let's try to keep it to legal objections.

URIBE: I apologize if I'm also speaking very loudly, your honor. I just -- this is to me -- I think this -- I'm passionately involved in this as well. I do not -- my dramatizations which have been commented on are not targeted towards anyone here individually or personality. It's just a personality defect that I must have.

JUDGE: That's -- what was the question? No, it was a long question. Ask a new question. Try to do the same one if you wish, but just make it a little shorter for me.

URIBE: All I'm trying to do -- I am so sorry that you have to answer this question but you're creating this. Let's separate us from this and put this in the context of an academic context. Please explain how the viewing session where you're not even aware of can violate you. We've understood that to be there because of the fear that you maintain, because of your awareness and that fear. But that particular instance, how did that violate you?

RUMBERGER: Asked and answered. Objection.

EARNHARDT: I answered that already.

JUDGE: Sustained.

URIBE: Ms. Earnhardt, you have indicated that your fear of these autopsy images would end up on the Internet, correct?

EARNHARDT: That's one of them, yes.

URIBE: And you also indicated that your concern was that your daughter would see them on the Internet, correct?

EARNHARDT: Yes.

URIBE: OK. Do you have Internet access to where your daughter can have -- does your daughter have access to Internet access?

EARNHARDT: At times.

URIBE: OK. Is this unsupervised Internet access?

EARNHARDT: No.

URIBE: You do understand how the Internet works, correct?

EARNHARDT: Somewhat.

URIBE: You have to move the mouse, click on something, and it takes you to a Web site.

RUMBERGER: Objection. Irrelevant, immaterial.

JUDGE: Where are we headed?

RUMBERGER: Somewhere on the Internet, apparently.

(LAUGHTER)

URIBE: To understand...

JUDGE: Well, anyone enjoys a good joke. But no one enjoys a good joke more than me, Mr. Rumberger. Please no more jokes at Mr. Uribe's expense. I believe he's making an attempt to do the right thing.

RUMBERGER: And I'm just objecting. This whole thing is a joke in this cross-examination in which I object and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will object.

JUDGE: OK. Then don't object anymore for a couple of minutes, and we'll stay at peace.

RUMBERGER: I'm sorry. What? Don't object?

JUDGE: Yeah, not for a couple of minutes, so that you and I can stay at peace. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). What I'm asking is it's hard for me to tell, because of the fact that you're not a lawyer, exactly what point you're going to make shortly. And so I'll try to give you some latitude to ask questions at the base of your inquiry that when I think I know where you're going. But this time, I just don't know where you're going, and that's why I'm asking you. Where are you going? What is the point that you hope to make with your inquiry? Whether or not Ms. Earnhardt knows how the Internet works is pretty far from anything that I can see being relevant.

URIBE: I'm not aware of -- but to explain that to you might prepare the witness to answer question in open court. JUDGE: Life can sometimes be difficult. Where are you heading?

URIBE: I'm trying to see if Ms. Earnhardt understands that you have to deliberately access certain Web sites, and that the Web sites don't jump out in front of you as you turn on the computer.

JUDGE: Ask her that.

URIBE: Do you...

EARNHARDT: I'm aware of that.

URIBE: And you're aware that at one point there was a law that sought to regulate the content of the Internet, but then it was deemed to be unconstitutional, and it turned the responsibility of regulating content to the -- on the end user.

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: Is my time...

(CROSSTALK)

JUDGE: Sustained. You don't have to. Sustained.

(LAUGHTER)

JUDGE: I'll object for you for a couple of minutes.

URIBE: In other words, you wouldn't hand a loaded weapon to a small child, would you?

JUDGE: Sustained.

I'll tell you what, I'm going to help you again a little bit. The point in a non-jury case of asking a question is to make the court aware as the same you would make a jury aware of a given fact. And the facts that you're asking now are all facts of which I'm fairly aware.

If you believe that there's an emotional state that could be caused or not caused in the plaintiff, then direct yourself there, OK?

CHEN: Note to our viewers about what you have been watching here. This has been questioning of, as you see there, Teresa Earnhardt, who is, of course, the widow of Dale Earnhardt, the late driver, who died, of course, at the Daytona 500 in the last lap of the race this year.

There has been an effort under way by a Web site called Websitecity, as well as newspaper at the University of Florida called "The Independent Florida Alligator, to access those photographs from the autopsy for further review by their folks as well. And what you were hearing was questioning by the owner of Websitecity, who is not a lawyer, therefore we saw a number of difficulties in his line of questioning, as faced by the judge and by lawyers for Ms. Earnhardt as well. But this individual from Websitecity was trying to create a line of questioning to try to get more information from the widow Teresa Earnhardt, about why she did not want those autopsy pictures to become public.

Again, this is a line of questioning that's been going on for some time now. This process has taken over an hour, about an hour and a half at this point. Teresa Earnhardt, still on the stand, and the judge in case, still trying to work out a line of questioning by this figure, who is not a lawyer, in this case, as they pursue trying to get access to the pictures of Dale Earnhardt's autopsy.

CNN is continuing follow-up on this story, and we'll drop back into if developments warrant, there.

On another story we are watching very closely here at CNN today, a convicted terrorist will escape the death penalty. Just a short time ago a New York jury announced that it had deadlocked over whether Mohamed al-'Owhali should face capital punishment. That means that he will receive the alternate sentence, which is life in prison without parole. Al-'Owhali was one of the four men convicted of conspiring to bomb the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

We're going to hear from CNN correspondent Brian Palmer, who is at the federal courthouse in New York coming up at the top of the hour on CNN News Site. We'll go back to TALKBACK LIVE after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: The FCC recently fined a Colorado radio station $7,000 for playing an edited version of Eminem's "The Real Slim Shady." When a Colorado Springs resident called the FCC to complain about the song, the version of which has been played on thousands of radio stations, the agency decided the song -- quote -- "contains unmistakable offensive sexual references that appear intended to pander and shock."

All right. We are back. Jonathan in New York says: "If the music is selling, then it's doing something right. You've got to give the public what it wants." David in Texas says: "Hip hop is 21st century minstrelsy. It reduces blacks to caricatures and stereotypes."

Join us now is Big Gipp, rap artist with a group Goodie Mob. Thanks so much for coming in, Gipp, appreciate it.

BIG GIPP, GOODIE MOB: No problem.

BATTISTA: I know you are in Atlanta.

BIG GIPP: Yes.

BATTISTA: I am going to be honest with you -- I don't know your music. I grew up on the Four Tops and the Temptations, let's just put that on the table right now. But anyway, let me ask a question to you this way: does your CD carry a parental advisement warning, or any other?

BIG GIPP: Yes, because I have to -- it's from both sides. Some of the messages in our rap are political, some of the messages in our rap are just about street life and street -- being in the community. I'm not -- I don't think that it's wrong to have a parental advisory on there, because some people need to know what they are buying, but at the same time, I can't get on a CD and not give the facts, you know what I'm saying?

I can't talk about Bankhead, that has almost 20 liquor stores up and down the street, and that's in the black community, you know what I'm saying? I can't talk about the drugs that ravages my people. I mean, I don't see people in Bankhead walking around looking like crack addicts, you understand?

So, I have to be as real as I possibly can, to either scare the youth or either let them know that it is somebody out there who is going to represent the truth, who is going to always give the idea to you all. I don't have to be there. I don't have to be that. And that's the truth, man. Some people don't want you to hear the truth. And you know...]

BATTISTA: Are you an exception? Do you think -- I mean, do you think that there are a lot of artists in the rap community that, as we were talking earlier, don't come from this culture, or this subculture, you know, the hip-hop thing?

BIG GIPP: Yes. I feel like the reason why it has always been so important in my life and my music is because I grew up with a mother and a father. I had a father that I could always go to and ask him his opinion. I had a mother that I could always go and lay my head in her lap and ask her, is this right, you know what I'm saying? Some kids don't come from that. So, you cannot expect them to know the right and wrongs of what you are feeling is right and wrong.

BATTISTA: Do you feel any obligation to give them that?

BIG GIPP: I do. But you cannot put that on every artist, you can't do that, because if you do that, then you have to blame country music artists, you got to blame R&B, you got to blame pop, you got to talk about Britney Spears and the things she is doing. You can't just point out rap music, man. You cannot do that.

And you see, my thing with the whole discussion is that the only reason why these people, or rather industry itself is coming down on rap music is because it's making a lot of young millionaires in the community. When you got 17, 18-year-old kids walking around here doing $100,000 shows, that scares some people, because at that age, they are going to go and buy the Bentleys and do the same thing you are doing, and it's not -- I don't wear a suit, I don't look the way you do.

I got gold teeth in my mouth. I got platinum in my mouth. I look like a drug dealer, but at the same time, that's what you think. That's the stereotypical thing of it. But at the same time, that's just like country music singers, they have got their boots and their hats. It's the same thing. It's a culture. So, let me do it my way, and don't censor my music.

BATTISTA: Let me bring out another guest, because you are bringing up some good points here. Dr. Todd Boyd is with us, he is a film and pop culture expert. He is the professor of critical studies at the University of Southern California School of Cinema and Television, and he also author of the book, "Am I Black Enough For You? Popular Culture From The Hood And Beyond."

Thanks for joining us, Dr. Boyd.

DR. TODD BOYD, FILM AND POP CULTURE EXPERT: Thank you.

BATTISTA: A little perspective here, if you can for us, on maybe, you know, we need more education about where the -- roots of rap music and where it is evolving.

BOYD: Well, I think first of all, I have been living for a while now and I sort of eagerly been waiting my chance to jump in, and correct, if you will, some of the things that have been said. First of all, people are sort of looking for hip hop to sort of raise their children, and that's a mistake. Hip hop is culture. It's artistic, it's social, it's political.

There are elements in it that are sort of problematic, but you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. I grew up in the '70s, and the hot button topic of the '70s were black exploitation movies. My father in all of his infinite wisdom took me to see "Shaft," "Superfly," "Mac," "Cleopatra Jones," and many people thought these films were degrading and offered negative images.

But I turned out all right. I'm a tenured professor at the USC film school, the author of three books, and that culture didn't destroy me. There probably are some other people whose parents probably wouldn't let them watch these movies, and they might be in the penitentiary now. So, there's no guarantee one way or the other.

I think one of the problems we have in our society is people are so quick to want to censor something, as opposed to recognizing that we have to take the bitter with the sweet, the good with the bad. That there are aspects of hip-hop that are very positive, but we don't live in a world that is 100 percent positive all the time.

If you go back to the 1980s, you look at something like the "Cosby Show", this in my mind, was one of the most positive representations of black people in the history of television. But when "The Cosby Show" came on the air, racism didn't suddenly end. So I think sometimes we look at this issue as a one-sided issue, and what we need to do is recognize, as my man Big Gipp said, you know, it's about recognizing the reality of it, the realness of it. And sometimes, reality is not pretty.

MUHAMMAD: But, I have to tell you, I strongly feel like what the professor has just said is part of the problem. It's older blacks that have failed in their duty to raise their children, they are so cut off and disconnected from the hip hop generation that they are scrambling to find some connection with it. But...

BOYD: I would suggest...

MUHAMMAD: Let me finish, sir. I listened to you.

(CROSSTALK)

MUHAMMAD: Sir, I've only worked in the streets of Harlem my entire professional career.

BOYD: And I have only been black my entire life.

MUHAMMAD: I don't think I have missed too much in the...

(CROSSTALK)

MUHAMMAD: Can I finish my point?

BOYD: You interrupted me.

MUHAMMAD: My point was, it is this older '60s, '70s generation of blacks that will protest police brutality and racial profiling. If any corporation has any slight reference to anything that's degrading against black people, we will get angry about that. But...

BOYD: We should.

MUHAMMAD: And we refuse to take a strong line with their children and...

BOYD: I think you are taking a strong line.

MUHAMMAD: I just left Reicher Island (ph) the other day with Shyne, the rapper, and this son of hip hop, when he was sentenced to 10 years in jail. Only one hip hop personality showed up to support him. The prison industrial complex is growing. We are feeding kids into that complex.

I agree with Cam (ph) of Goodie Mob, Kip (ph) of Goodie Mob, as well. The greatest thing Goodie Mob said when Tupac and others were celebrating thugism, the great Willy Knight of his group said, our mothers didn't raise us to be thugs, and until we stand up again and challenge these false images in our community, we are not going to save black people. And it is a charade to attack whites and others when they disrespect us. No person will respect you until you respect yourself.

BATTISTA: Dr. Boyd, hang on one second, I'm pushing a break here. I will let you respond when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Dr. Boyd, I think you feel that rap is unfairly criticized. At the same time, does it have no responsibility at all for promoting or not promoting certain things like misogyny or violence? Or does it have no responsibility there?

BOYD: Well, I think it has the same responsibility as a show like "The Sopranos," which happens to be one of the most popular shows on television right now. If you look at "The Sopranos" on a weekly basis, you will see violence against women, you will see sexism, misogyny, an expression of racism, homophobia, all of these social ills. And certainly, all these things need to be criticized, but nobody...

BATTISTA: But that's fiction. "The Sopranos" is fiction.

BOYD: What is hip hop?

BATTISTA: I thought that was the real deal.

BOYD: It's music.

BATTISTA: But I thought...

BOYD: There are certain elements of reality that are very much a part of the appeal of "The Sopranos": the fact that they use real locations in New Jersey to indicate, you know, the setting. Those are real.

The fact that it oftentimes draws on real historical events in informing its characters -- all of it's fiction at some level, and all of it in some way references some sense of truth. The point is, if we criticize hip hop, we have to criticize popular culture. And we should criticize popular culture, we should evaluate it, analyze it. My problem is censorship, my problem is dismissing it.

And let's be honest here. We often put burden of responsibility on black people to sort of carry these social ills in a way that we don't put on other forms of culture. We act as though black people are the epitome of sexism or violence and racism, and all of these things started before hip hop ever came on the scene.

MUHAMMAD: Professor Boyd, you're using a fallacious argument. My mother taught me two wrongs don't make a right. We have an...

(CROSSTALK)

MUHAMMAD: If you just let me finish.

BOYD: But you keep interrupting me, then you ask me to let you finish.

MUHAMMAD: We have unprecedented opportunity right now. Young black executives, young people have an unprecedented access right now to communications, to capital. And we are squandering that opportunity. Malcolm X is turning over in his grave now realizing that a black young man can go into a studio, say anything he wants and get rich from it, and we are calling our women B's and H's and glorifying selling drugs and robbing our people. This is hypocrisy on your part.

BOYD: Part of the problem is we, black, white and otherwise, in this country do not know what to do with young black men with money. We've never had this issue to deal with before, and we do not know what to do with it now.

MUHAMMAD: That is absolutely preposterous. Most rappers don't even have money. There are only a few black executives that have made money, and most young black men in this country are -- 50 percent are in prison.

BOYD: Well, you just referenced somebody who goes into a studio making millions of dollars. Now you say they don't have any money.

MUHAMMAD: Again, this is a foolish argument. Instead of addressing a problem in our community...

BOYD: Well, I think your argument is foolish. You keep contradicting yourself.

BATTISTA: Let me jump in here and get Gipp to weigh in on this.

(CROSSTALK)

GIPP: I relate to both.

MUHAMMAD: We're looking for uplifting the black community.

GIPP: I'd like to say what's up, Conrad. Conrad is the brother that brought me into the nation of Islam. We've been together for a long time.

MUHAMMAD: This is my brother, right here. I love him and he's a great young rapper.

GIPP: As a young guy I got a lot of knowledge from the nation of Islam. I got a lot of knowledge from the church also. But through my travels -- I have been able to go to Japan, I've been able to go to Europe. So, now that I'm way of the world person, you know what I'm saying, I'm very much into giving everybody their time as far as expression.

Me, as an artist, I feel like you have to be responsible for what you say, but you can't say that rap -- when Public Enemy was around they talked about so many things. They let people know what happening in the community. They talked about NWA, and the things they did in California, but they always talked about how the police would go to the communities and beat those kids. And not until the Rodney King situation could you see it live in effect on your TV, that it was actually happening.

And a lot of times rap is used almost like the news every day. It's like we tell the news of the things that are going on in our communities that average people can't see. They drive by it every day and don't even know, you know what I'm saying.

(APPLAUSE)

GIPP: So, to that extent, there will always be people who disagree with your messages, but it's such a trip that as time goes on and now that information is so vast through computers and things of that sort, that a lot of things that we talked about are true. They are true.

You know, the relationship between young black males and police, like I'm telling you, I own everything that I ride around in and live in, but I'm still scared of police because they'll look at me -- if I leave this place right now and get stopped by the police, they will think I'm selling drugs because of the way I look, and that's a stereotype, because of what they feel rap music does to the community.

BATTISTA: I have ignored the audience here since we got interrupted. Lance, go ahead. Let me get the audience in.

LANCE: The comment about the festival. Down on Sweet Auburn at the Heritage Festival on Saturday, there was a young rapper, a woman, a young woman, she was a Muslim sister, and her name was Wildflower. And she had a song which she advised all women to be modest in their dress, to cover up their bodies and she said, "Girls, don't try to be like Venus and men, put away your penis." And she said have self- respect and have pride, I just thought it was a message, a positive message, and it was a way that rap can be used to do something positive for women.

(CROSSTALK)

GIPP: The industry does not like to promote things of that sort, sir. Like, you don't hear that on the radio.

DEBREAUX: Not just the industry but I want also focus on -- look what people are calling and requesting. And you have two, three, four radio stations in the marketplace and everybody wants to hear the unedited version of "Mystical" where he's saying "shake your ass" instead of "shake it fast."

BATTISTA: You guys I'm complete out of time.

MUHAMMAD: Don't forget, though, the biggest rap sellers are people like Lauryn Hill, who uplift and give young black women a positive imagine.

BATTISTA: Thanks to all of my guests. We'll talk about this again. Thank you all very much for joining us. We'll see you again tomorrow.

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