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CNN Talkback Live

Should Gay Adoption Be Legal?

Aired June 13, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BATTISTA: Do gays make good parents? Should they be allowed to adopt children?

UNIDENTIFIED GAY ADOPTIVE PARENT: Society has changed, and we have to go with that change and create healthy support for people who are healthy people. Children can be raised in different settings than the traditional family.

BATTISTA: That may be true in some states, but in Florida, gay adoptions remain against the law.

JANET PARSHALL, FAMILY RESOURCE COUNCIL: These children need to be valued and nurtured and the best place we do that is we say, put them in a home where there is a mom and a dad. We have millions, millions of moms and dads out there who are aching to be able to adopt a child.

BATTISTA: The ACLU says such laws discriminate against gays and punish children who need homes. What do you say?

Good afternoon. Welcome to TALK BACK LIVE. Should gay people be allowed to adopt children? In 22 states it is almost routine, for the rest it remains a touchy issue and the law prohibiting gay adoptions is going on trial in Florida.

Let's start by talking with Doug Houghton, one of the men taking it to court. He is on the phone with us from Miami. For six years Doug has been a legal guardian of nine-year-old Oscar. Now Doug wants to adopt the child. Also with us is Doug's lawyer, Leslie Cooper. She is a staff attorney at the ACLU's lesbian and gay rights project. Doug, thank you very much for joining us.

DOUG HOUGHTON, PLAINTIFF: Hi, thank you.

BATTISTA: Tell us, if you would, how Oscar initially came into your life.

HOUGHTON: Well, I was a nurse practitioner managing a clinic, a pediatric out-patient clinic, and he was one of my patients, so I knew him in a professional setting for at least a year and half before his father asked me to take him, you know, into my care, because he was unable to care for the child, and felt that I would be a good care provider for him. So it was all a voluntary thing. And I did so immediately because I wanted a child, and we have been like that ever since.

BATTISTA: You mentioned Oscar's father. What happened with that situation there and other members of his family?

HOUGHTON: Well, he -- his mother now is deceased, but she had previously lost custody anyway. He does have grandparents and I keep in touch with them. He has other siblings, his father has a number of children around in different places that he keeps in some contact with, but really not much contact with the father, but that's, you know, on and off.

BATTISTA: Does Oscar know that you want to adopt him, and how does he feel about that?

HOUGHTON: He wants -- the same as I do. He wants to know that where he is he is going to be able to stay forever, you know. He's very happy, I think he is a wonderful child. And I'm so proud of him. And he wants permanence, and he's at the age now where it is starting to make a difference.

BATTISTA: And does he know you are gay, Doug.

HOUGHTON: Oh, he sure does. He just kind of figured that out a year or two ago. I mean, for the first three, maybe four years, it really wasn't an issue because he wasn't aware of such differences at that point, but for the last year or two he's known that. He knows that I'm different than most people. And I think it is just going to help him to become a more accepting and loving child of all different people.

BATTISTA: I was going to say, how is he handling that?

HOUGHTON: No problem. I mean, he knows children that have -- that are children of single moms. He has one friend that is a black child adopted by a white family. He has another friend that is a mixed race child with a white mother and a black father. I mean, he knows a lot of different people in a lot of different families, and I don't think he really sees it as that different.

BATTISTA: Leslie, why can't Doug adopt in the state of Florida? He can he be foster parent, as he was and others have been, but he can't adopt. What's the basis of the law there?

LESLIE COOPER, ACLU STAFF ATTORNEY: Well, Florida has a statute that says that lesbians and gay men categorically cannot adopt children, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of the relationship, such as Doug's and Oscar's. The basis, as far as we can tell, we don't see any basis other than bias against lesbians and gay men.

We know that lesbians and gay men, like Doug, can make great parents. We know that parenting is about loving a child, being committed to a child, looking after that child's needs. There's no reason to believe that lesbians and gay men can't do that as well as others, and in fact, all of the research that has been done on lesbian and gay parents agrees with that and shows that children who are raised by lesbians gay men develop just as healthily as other children. So we see no basis other than bias, really.

BATTISTA: Doug, I think that a lot of people sometimes have a little hard time wrapping themselves around this issue because they do feel that there should be a mother and a father in the home, or at least strong parent figures of each sex, and that that environment certainly influences their upbringing one way or the other.

HOUGHTON: Well, I would say that environment definitely influences a child, but I would say, not that it requires a heterosexual mother and father figure. I think that there are millions of children around the country now, and I think the census figures reflect that there are millions of children being raised by single men, single women, two women, two men, I mean, a father alone who is divorced. There are grandparents, aunts, uncles. I mean there's millions of children in alternative situations who are turning out fine. And I think what's important is stability, love, and permanence.

BATTISTA: What do you say to people who are concerned that Oscar might grow up to be gay himself, because his parents are gay, or that you know, he might be discouraged from heterosexual relationships?

HOUGHTON: That is just my favorite comment because it is just such a ludicrous thing really, when you think about it. Every gay person happens to have heterosexual parents. I was raised in a heterosexual environment, and I did not turn out heterosexual. Nobody made me gay, that's just how I was and that's how I am. Just as it was for me, it is the same for Oscar. He knows that I'm a little bit different and that he will probably grow up and marry a woman, and I don't see any basis for thinking that that is going to happen.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here quickly, Rod go ahead -- comment.

ROD: Well, I just -- the only comment that I have on this is that most young couples, when they start, out don't have enough money to financially take care of a child. There's a lot of people who are gay who have plenty of resources. They can give them the best education and other opportunities. It would be ludicrous for me to be so unpolitically correct as to make a comment like "if you are too poor to have a child you may never adopt." So, why is it that we would say that somebody that has the resources to give a person all these opportunities, we would say to that individual that "you will not be able to adopt just because of your sexual preference?"

BATTISTA: Michael is on the phone from Texas. Go ahead, Michael.

MICHAEL: Well, actually, the only problem I see is by their choice of sexual preference they have excluded the possibility of having kids naturally. So, really, they have already decided that they don't want kids, you know.

HOUGHTON: Well, it is not a decision -- it's definitely not a decision that I ever had anything to say about. I mean, I just was. It is like how you are born with brown eyes or blue eyes or smart or dumb or you know, whatever you are. You are just born that way. It is not a choice. So, I'm afraid I never had a choice.

BATTISTA: Leslie, is this law in Florida been challenged before? It has been on the books since 1977.

COOPER: It has been challenged in state court under the state Constitution. This is the first federal court challenge also under the federal Constitution.

BATTISTA: And when exactly does the process begin and what do you think your prospects are?

COOPER: Well the process began back in May of '98 when we first filed complaint and lawsuits take some time and we are hoping go to trial before the end of the year, this fall sometime. We hope to prevail then.

BATTISTA: All right, Doug Houghton, we thank you very much for joining us today. Appreciate your time.

HOUGHTON: My pleasure.

BATTISTA: With us now is Bob Knight, director of the Cultural And Family Institute At Concerned Women For America. Bob, thank you for joining us.

ROBERT KNIGHT, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Thank you for having me.

BATTISTA: You know, I guess a lot of people might think, why not let Doug adopt this child into a loving home where Doug clearly is the only person that Oscar has ever known as a father, rather than have him being kicked around the foster care system, et cetera. Isn't Oscar probably better off?

KNIGHT: You know this reminds me a lot of the hard cases for abortion that justify the other million a year. You can always find a situation which appears on the surface to make common sense, that you'd put a child in a household like this. But, you know, you can think of other analogies: Would a child be better off in a burning building than in a house in an apartment, safe, with two gay men?

I mean, what is a problem here is that it is a false comparison...

BATTISTA: We're just looking at an individual case here, and it sounds to me that, you know, seven years he has been in the foster care of this loving man, and to have him, you know, taken away and put back in the foster care system doesn't seem to me the best solution.

KNIGHT: There is the problem. He shouldn't have been put in that household in first place. It is cruel to rip a child out of an environment in which he has become accustomed, and when he's gotten really close to an adult caregiver. I agree with that, that it'd be tough on the child. The problem lies in the beginning of this case. They shouldn't have put him in that household in the first place. There are married mothers and fathers waiting to adopt children. I mean it doesn't have to be a, gee, the child gets bounced around in a foster care system, or we put him with a gay caretaker. I don't believe that is a valid choice. We can do better than that. Children need mothers and fathers as role models.

BATTISTA: You know, there is always so many circumstances in all of these cases, I guess. But, you know, in this particular case the father had asked Doug to take guardianship of him. The family is amenable to it. I guess, maybe we should look at these cases one by one. They're all individual, aren't they?

KNIGHT: Well, that makes it tough because when you're talking about public policy, you do have to have a general policy for everybody, and then you try to individualize it as best you can. But the rule of thumb is: What's best for the child?

And we know from mountains of sociological research and common sense that kids do best with moms and dads. We have a lot of science out there now, about gay parenting. And a new study came out in American Sociological Review by two pro-gay researchers who said, you know, a lot of the gay activists who have said studies show that there's no difference when a child is raised by gay parents or if they're raised by a mom and a dad, are being very misleading.

Kids in gay households are far more likely to feel positive toward homoeroticism, to try homosexuality themselves, and even to turn out gay. And they're saying, gee, what's wrong with that? Well, a lot of people might think there's something wrong with that. That's OK only if you think there's something normal about two men having sex together, or two women having sex together.

BATTISTA: Leslie, the problem with studies is that there's always studies on both sides.

COOPER: Well, actually in this area, the studies done on lesbian and gay parents almost unanimously conclude that children who are raised by lesbians and gay men develop as healthfully as other children. And the report that Mr. Knight referred to was an interpretation of previous studies that have been done, and the conclusion, the main conclusion of that report was consistent with those studies. And that is, as I said, that children raised by lesbians and gay men develop as healthfully as others. Also...

KNIGHT: That's only if it's OK to have them turn out gay.

COOPER: If you'll let me finish, please.

KNIGHT: I'm sorry.

COOPER: The report also noted that there are -- there may be, and appear to be some differences that are benign differences between some children. But as far as sexual orientation goes, I think all the report suggests is that lesbian and gay children who are raised by lesbians and gay seem more accepting of their own sexuality. I think that's a positive thing.

KNIGHT: Well, what -- there -- in that study, there was one study within the study that shows that in 25 lesbian households, a healthy proportion of the girls raised in those households ended up in lesbian relationships. But in the households of 20 heterosexual mothers, not a single one of them developed homosexual relationships. So what parents do and what -- the kind of behavior they model in front of their kids really does affect kids. And if we care about kids, wouldn't we want to steer them toward a mother-and-father family model, where you have the best for happiness, and what stabilizes society the most?

COOPER: Bobbie, could I respond to that?

BATTISTA: Yes, quickly.

COOPER: Sure. As far as this whole argument that children need a mother and a father...

KNIGHT: It helps.

COOPER: Whatever people may think about that, that -- prohibiting adoption by single people is not a policy in Florida or in any state in this country. And in fact, a huge number of single people are adopting children across the country. The latest statistics from the Children's Bureau in Washington reported that 1/3 of all adoptions of children at a foster care are by single parents.

KNIGHT: Well, I don't think that's a good trend. Because the children know they're missing a parent, so why would we deliberately create a motherless or a fatherless household by design? You know, it happens, a lot of people find themselves in these circumstances, but why would we do it deliberately when there are other alternatives?

BATTISTA: I have to quick break here and the audience is chomping at the bit to get in on this one. Leslie Cooper, thank you very much for joining us today.

COOPER: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Should the Florida law banning gay adoptions be overturned? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL keyword CNN. While there, check my notes and send e-mail. And by the way, we now have AOL instant messaging. Those of you who have it, put us on your buddy list. Our name is TALKBACK LIVE. Those of you who don't have it, follow the link on our Web site.

Remember "Survivor's" Richard Hatch? He's an adoptive father. He'll be joining us right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Last year Mississippi pass a law barring same-sex couples from adopting. Florida is the only state in the U.S. that prohibits an adoption by any gay or lesbian person. New Hampshire repealed the only other ban as strict as Florida's last year.

Let me go quickly to the audience here. Let me do a couple e- mails first. Andrea says: "Love is love, no matter how it is given. At least Doug is willing to love unconditionally, unlike some other foster parents. He should be given the right to adopt Oscar."

Brook in Oklahoma says: "Such an idea is totally unfair to children. It warps their view of what is normal."

Charmaine (ph), in the audience here.

CHARMAINE: I just want to say that there shouldn't be a public policy on love. Love is love, and if a kid is raised in a loving family, irrespective whether it's mother-father or gay, I mean, the kid shouldn't be taken out of that loving environment.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: On the phone with us now is Richard Hatch, the million-dollar winner of CBS's first season of "Survivor," you may remember. Richard is openly gay and adopted his son Christopher four years ago.

Richard, did you run into any problems or obstacles with that adoption?

RICHARD HATCH, GAY ADOPTIVE PARENT: Absolutely not one, Bobbie, nothing. Rhode Island is a very open-minded state with intelligent people, who understand that there are kids out there who simply need the homes, and actually pursue gay people to recruit them to adopt.

BATTISTA: In a perfect world, would you think that it might be better for a child to have a mother and father?

HATCH: I wouldn't. I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect world, and I think one of your audience members talked about love being love. And that's the bottom line. If you're prepared to care for a child and love him or her, then you can do that. I know more heterosexual families that are abusive and problematic. And to take away somebody's rights to have a family just because they're gay is absurd.

The conservative views the argument that it -- having that law in Florida protects traditional families. They don't need protection. They are not in jeopardy. It's absurd.

BATTISTA: Bob?

KNIGHT: Well, I think we're talking about public policy, and the states do have to deal with these things. And the presumption has always been, what's best for the child, in placement decisions. And it's only been recently that we've said, gee, it doesn't seem to matter whether a child has a mother and father, two fathers are the same as having a mother and father, or two mothers are the same as having a mother and father. I think audience members ought to ask themselves if their fathers could be replaced by a lesbian lover and they would notice the difference, or if their mothers played so -- played so little a role in their development that it wouldn't have made any difference to them if their father had been kissing a male lover instead.

This is not reasonable to assume that men and women are interchangeable like automobile parts. I mean, men and women very special -- very unique things to a relationship.

HATCH: They do bring that to the relationship, but not to the -- relationship with the child as a parent.

KNIGHT: Of course they do!

HATCH: Of course they don't.

KNIGHT: Fathers react completely differently with kids than mothers do.

HATCH: They absolutely are not replaced. You talked about replacing a father with a lesbian lover -- that is absurd. I'm a single parent, and I'm gay and I'm raising a son.

KNIGHT: He doesn't miss having a mother? You don't think mothers bring that much to the table? That he won't miss that?

HATCH: He would not miss that.

KNIGHT: I think mothers are very important

HATCH: He was in DCYF in foster care, where he was being shipped from home to home for seven years of his life.

KNIGHT: Well, let's fix the system.

HATCH: Out of hundreds and hundreds of children in Florida.

BATTISTA: What you are saying is, Christopher didn't really even have a conception, per se, of a mother.

HATCH: As most of these children who are up for adoption don't.

KNIGHT: And that's very tragic.

BATTISTA: Richard, do you have a strong female figure in Christopher's life? Do you feel that it is necessary?

HATCH: There are a number of -- I live in society. So, I mean, all of his teachers are female, a number of my friends are female, it is just not -- a complete non-issue.

KNIGHT: Not like having a mom in the house. I'm sorry, moms are worth more than that.

HATCH: You are talking about an idealistic perspective that doesn't exist. KNIGHT: It's reality.

HATCH: There are not moms in the house in single parent heterosexual homes.

KNIGHT: That is right, and that puts the child at a disadvantage, no matter how well the parent is doing.

HATCH: I disagree with you.

KNIGHT: I'm not questioning your intentions, Mr. Hatch, or even your parenting abilities. I'm saying that, by and large, kids do best with a mother and father.

HATCH: I completely disagree. I completely...

KNIGHT: They provide unique contributions to a child's well- being, since creation.

HATCH: It depends on who that mother and father are. There are abusive mothers and fathers, and to say that a mother and father do better, than just a mother or just a father, or a gay couple, or a gay single parent is absurd.

KNIGHT: To say there is no general rule, because -- because some people abuse, that there is no general rule we can follow is also throwing away common sense.

HATCH: No, it's not throwing away. There's no need for a general rule, if it's a case by case basis.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Anita in the audience. You're a single mom, Anita.

ANITA: I'm a single mother and I object to someone who is not in that situation, knowing the decision that you go to become a single mother. You don't do that lightly. If you decide that your marriage is more detrimental to the child than to raise that child alone, and then work eight hours a day, commute and raise that child the best that you can, it is not for anybody else to make that decision for you.

And I think that it doesn't matter. If you are a single parent if you are gay or you are straight, and that child is getting a better life than you believe in your heart that they would have had otherwise, is not for a stranger or someone like you or someone who doesn't know the situation, and loves that child with all their heart, to tell them that that is not a better situation.

HATCH: Let's be really logical...

KNIGHT: What if it isn't?

HATCH: If we wanted to go out and address who were good parents, then pursue the drug addicts, pursue the alcoholics, pursue the people who are not capable of parenting. But to suggest that a parent is better or worse because of their sexuality is absolutely asinine.

KNIGHT: I think sexuality is important and so do you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be announcing you are an openly gay man. Sexuality is a large part of who we are, and kids know that: they watch for clues about how to behave.

They know that men and women are built for each other, and they know that there is something wrong when they see two men kissing.

HATCH: They don't know there is something wrong at all.

KNIGHT: Yes they do.

HATCH: They see two people care for one another. People's sexuality is ingrained, it's not something that they learn, and a child is going to raise -- being raised in a loving environment, will become the sexual person that he or she would become, regardless.

KNIGHT: And you are saying, whether you have a mother and a father in the house has no impact on a child whatever.

HATCH: Correct.

KNIGHT: That doesn't jive with common sense, I'm sorry.

BATTISTA: Particularly, saying sexual orientation.

HATCH: Right.

KNIGHT: OK, yes, you have sexual orientation. If a child watches two men kiss or two women kiss, it is not the same as watching a mom and a dad kiss.

HATCH: Correct. They learn open-mindedness.

BATTISTA: We're talking about acceptance levels, and I will address that when we come back. We have to go to a break. And Richard Hatch, we thank you very much for joining us today.

HATCH: Thank you Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Want to know what it is like to be raised by a gay parent? We will ask our next guest that right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: More e-mails coming in. Michael in New York says:

"My sister and I were raised by our mother, who happens to be a lesbian. We had a very happy and loving childhood, and wouldn't trade our experiences for the world. Why shouldn't gay people be allowed to adopt children, if they can give adopted children the type of home that my mother gave us?"

Brad in California says: "I'm gay, and with everything else being equal, I think it is preferable to have a child raised by a mom and a dad. But if there are children needing homes with no responsible heterosexual couples to adopt them, then the child would definitely benefit by being raised by responsible gays or lesbians.

Spencer in the audience.

SPENCER: I do understand what both Richard and Doug are saying. I do believe that they believe this is unconstitutional. But I want to know how they plan to compensate for the absence of the other parent, the mother or the father. It is -- I have gotten things for my mother that I haven't from my father, and vice versa. I want to know how they plan to actually compensate for that.

BATTISTA: You know what? I will pose that question to our next. Since Richard is no longer with us.

Joining us now is Meema Spadooa. She produced a PBS documentary about gay and lesbian families, called "Our House." And Meema's mother is a lesbian.

Meema, when did you first find out about that?

MEEMA SPADOOA, DOCUMENTARY PRODUCER: My parents divorced when I was 10 and my mother came out as a lesbian after that. So I grew up from the age of 10 and I'm 31 now, knowing that my mother's a lesbian.

BATTISTA: And how did you react to that at age 10?

SPADOOA: Well, for me, the hard part was knowing that we live in a culture that that was not accepting. And I lived in a small town in Maine, and I wasn't aware that there were other children with gay and lesbian parents. What I know now is that there are millions of children who have gay and lesbian parents. And what I always try and tell people is the most important thing is to live in a community -- doesn't have to be a big city, doesn't have to be in New York or California -- but in a place that is supportive. That's what matters to the children.

BATTISTA: Did you ever know your father?

SPADOOA: Yes, absolutely. My father is very much my father. My mother is my mother. I have two stepmothers, so you can imagine that Mother's Day is really busy. But for me, you know, I grew up knowing both a father and a mother.

The thing that I would like to remind people is that the most recent census figures show that there are only 25 percent of so-called nuclear families in America today where there's a father and a mother. So the reality is that 75 percent of families are alternative. So, for me, at this point to argue about the issue of a mother and a father seems a little bit beside the point, because 75 percent of our families don't have a mom and a dad.

KNIGHT: Yeah, a lot of them are empty-nesters who already raised their families. So, you know, that 25 percent figure is not really accurate. There are a lot of older people who are married and have been married for years, and are not counted as a nuclear family because they already raised their children. So -- but the large majority of households still contains a married mother and father.

And if I have a minute, I'd like to address what the guests -- or the audience member said earlier, the single mom. I mean, here's a woman who deeply loves her child, obviously, and has struggled and works hard eight hours a day, and then afterward -- I'm not questioning any of that. What I'm saying is that she's telling us how tough it is to be a single mom.

And I would figure that she would -- she and every other single parent knows it would help to have another person in the house, and the child knows that. And so, in terms of public policy, you try to achieve the optimal circumstances for the child. That's all I'm saying. There ought to be a public policy preference for putting kids in two-parent, married, mother-and-father families. And when we lose that preference, we're not doing what is best for kids.

SPADOOA: Mr. Knight, I so wish that you could have seen and met the so many gay and lesbian families that I have met over the past couple years working on this documentary. There are so many wonderful families, who attend church, who go to neighborhood barbecues, who live their lives just like every other family, and you'd be shocked at how normal they are, I think. And you'd probably be surprised at how happy the kids are.

And guess what? We don't sit around talking about, you know, the fact that our parents are gay. We live our lives. You know, there's they saying "love makes a family." And I also say, well, you know, fighting at Thanksgiving makes a family. Guess what -- we're normal. Our parents yell at us about doing homework, they tell us not to watch so much TV. We are normal, and whether or not you approve...

(CROSSTALK)

KNIGHT: Well, you're human beings, but that doesn't make sex normal among...

SPADOOA: Whether or not you approve, we do exist and we're here, and we're not going away.

KNIGHT: Yes, but that doesn't mean public policy has to encourage even more of that happening, when we know it's not good for kids. Common sense tells us they need moms and dads.

SPADOOA: I feel so sad that you are so bigoted. I grew up...

KNIGHT: Oh, there's the name-calling I've come to expect from gay activists.

(APPLAUSE)

SPADOOA: I grew up knowing that my mother is a lesbian and with a sense of acceptance. I grew up... KNIGHT: Well, I hope you love your mother regardless. I got to tell you, I'm on the Board of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays, and we encourage families with people struggling with homosexuality to accept them unconditionally. But we also tell them they don't have to leave their moral values behind, and they can know that God created male and female, that there is a right away to be, and that they can still love loved ones who haven't achieved that. But that doesn't mean they have to give up the truth of what it really is.

SPADOOA: There are so many gay and lesbian families who are deeply religious, and there are also many, many families who I have seen hurt by restrictions in the church that speak out against gay and lesbian families.

KNIGHT: Well, I guess they better throw the Bible right out, then, because that's what it says.

SPADOOA: We need to have interests of children at heart, here.

KNIGHT: Yes, we do.

SPADOOA: And in terms of looking after children, we need to support families who are loving.

BATTISTA: I'm sorry, I have cut in here, take a quick break. Bob Knight, thanks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. I'm getting a lot of e-mails that are quite lengthy here, but Anita in Florida says: "If I had to give a child up for adoption, I would want the best family possible, but I can't believe that a homosexual couple could provide that. It makes me wonder why people who want to be parents would choose relationships that have no possibility of childbearing."

Jake in Montana says: "I was adopted in Florida in 1969 by a 'mother' and a 'father' that the state deemed fit to allow to adopt me. These people beat me and my adopted sister relentlessly, and provided a very poor example to us as role models. I would much rather have been raised by one person who loved me unconditionally for whoever I was. I can safely say that Florida's adoption law is archaic and disgustingly ignorant of adoptees' needs."

Joining us now is Armstrong Williams, host of Talk America Radio's syndicated show, "The Right Side With Armstrong Williams." His latest book is titled "Beyond Blame: Moving Beyond Being a Victim."

Armstrong, good to see you.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TALK AMERICA RADIO NETWORK: Hi, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Also, Alan Amberg is with us, founder and former host of Lesbigay Radio.

Alan, good to see you.

ALAN AMBERG, FOUNDER, LESBIGAY RADIO: Hey, Bobbie. Thanks for having me back.

BATTISTA: Go ahead, guys. Go ahead, Armstrong. This is a contentious matter for a lot of folks, and it always goes back to, you know, that ideal, traditional family of a mother and a father, which does seem to be becoming a fading thing in our society.

WILLIAMS: I hope that's not true. I hope it's not. Actually, you know, I had a chance to just sit and listen sort of intensely to the debate over the last half hour, and there's so much emphasis on all that matters is that there's love in the household for a child. But you know, love is not enough to raise a child. It's like love is not enough to sustain a marriage. And what a child needs for his mental spiritual nurturing is that they need stability. They need guidelines. They need principles, they need values, on which to live by, and to guide their lives, in order to make decisions. This is really an issue about morality, and you can say...

BATTISTA: But why wouldn't they get those things from a gay couple?

WILLIAMS: Because I will tell you why. I will tell you why.

AMBERG: Here it comes!

WILLIAMS: That is not the moral example, as far as I'm concerned, that you'd want a child to emulate. I think, in the end that child may feel loved and the parents could do a very good job for that child, but that child is confused, especially about his moral compass, about his own moral character. And also, to try and explain that he has two mommies, or explain that he has two daddies.

I think -- and this other thing that really bothers me, and I hate to interject this, because this is something that rarely happens for me, is that I try -- that I invoke race into an issue. I live in the nation's capital of Washington, D.C., and what's really frightening to me about this gay adoption phenomena is that a lot of the kids that are being adopted are black kids.

AMBERG: And that's right, Armstrong.

WILLIAMS: And I have to ask myself why.

AMBERG: Armstrong...

WILLIAMS: Why? Let me finish. I'm not going to interrupt you.

AMBERG: Go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Why is that? Is it -- is it -- am I misreading this? So I'm saying to you, in order for -- we're talking about a child not just being in a home environment, but for a lifetime for that child to be productive, for that child to have a moral compass. I think in the end -- and I understand that parents sometimes abuse their kids. That's wrong. Parents do things they should not do. There are always exceptions. But for the majority of households in America, the best household to raise a child, if it's possible, is with a mother -- so they can learn what it means to be a mother, men and women, how to respect to women -- and for a father. Only a father can teach his child, a son, about manhood and what it means to be a man.

AMBERG: OK. Now, Armstrong, first of all, lots of us grow up in lots of different kinds of families, and we live in a society that's filled with unequal situations. We live in a society where girls grow up dominated by male images of power and privilege, where black children grow up dominated by images of white power and privilege, and on and on and on.

I'm Jewish. I grew up in a part of the world that was entirely Christian. You know what? The kids figure it out. They see people around them. And yes, in the ideal world we would live in the same kind of happy communities that you and I grew up, with parents, with grandparents, with cousins around.

The truth of the matter is, you're going to look at those kids who right now are in the system -- they're wards of the state. They go through very careful examinations of these parents. The social workers find that these are places where the children can have safety, can have good places to be, can get education, can become productive members.

How can you in good conscience look at those children and say, because of your idea of a moral compass, you're going to deny them that opportunity? I think that's criminal.

BATTISTA: Let me jump in here and get Meema in one more time, because Armstrong poised some sort of questions there about children who grow up in gay homes, about confusion or gender confusion, this kind of thing.

SPADOOA: I have talked to hundred of kids with gay and lesbian parents, and they are not confused. The things that we are confused about is why people have such a problem with our parents. That's what confuses us. That's what bothers us, that's what worries us.

WILLIAMS: If I can address that for you, because I want you to understand, I do not have problems with you and your parents, and you should be admired. But I think it is so unfair and such a distortion for you to sit there and make it seem as though that these are perfect households and that you represent every gay -- every child that has been adopted by gay parents.

This is not the story of all children adopted by gay parents. Your story is an exception.

AMBERG: And Armstrong...

SPADOOA: I don't represent that they're perfect households. WILLIAMS: So we need to tell the whole story.

SPADOOA: I represent that we are worthy households and we are like other families. We have our ups, we have our downs. I don't -- I don't say that gay parents make perfect parents, you know. And I resent the fact that, you know, that it's suggested that gay parents don't have a moral compass. My mother is an incredibly moral woman who has taught me really wonderful, strong values.

AMBERG: And...

SPADOOA: I'm so grateful. I am so grateful.

AMBERG: And beyond that...

BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here, and we say goodbye to Meema Spadooa. Thank you very much for joining us.

SPADOOA: Thanks so much.

BATTISTA: And we will take a break here and be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Fifty-two percent of respondents to a Gallup poll last month said homosexuality is an acceptable alternative lifestyle. That's up from 38 percent in 1992.

Attitudes about homosexuality, as we just saw there in that recent Gallup poll, Armstrong, do seem to be changing, and acceptance does seem to be growing. I know when you throw a child into the mix it can really mix things up, shall we say. But I think a lot of people might wonder: Are there bigger threats to the nuclear family than that?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, the only thing those statistics bear out, Bobbie, is that the media has done a wonderful job in dumbing down our feelings about this issue, and also the gay lobby is very powerful. But I just want to make this simple point, which I know many people probably won't agree with. A lot of good can come from any situation. That's just the way life is. But my attitude is homosexuals have a right to not be discriminated against. I'm tolerant. I have to love and accept all people.

But when you put a child in that household, that foundation is already flawed. And yes, good can come from that child, but that child will never be complete. That child will always be sort of rudderless in life without that moral compass. So how can you teach morality, how can you teach a spiritual foundation when you're living in a situation like that and you bring in a child? It's just very difficult, and so many people will agree with that.

I'm a traditionalist. Fine, say I'm crazy. But I've got to tell you: in order to sustain families and at least have a chance of having healthy children, given the issues that they're dealing with today, we've got to talk about morality. We've got to talk about right and wrong, and we must talk about moral strife. And whether people like it or not, it's not pretty, but we must talk about it.

AMBERG: Of course we have to talk about morality. Don't be ridiculous. Of course we do. And if that's the way you love and accept other people, after you just got done condemning all my friends, all the families I know, the people I've met traveling end to end of the country who are gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender, thanks. Leave your love with you. Thanks very much.

Now, let's talk about the fact that if you say that these children are coming into homes, tell me what foundation do parents get in general in this country. Can -- we're in a situation where any boy and girl can get drunk one night and the girl can get pregnant, and you have kids. Those kids have no education. They don't have the basis to do all of the stuff that you're talking about.

In the meantime, Armstrong, we have children, children in these systems -- thousands of them, tens of thousands of them -- in need of homes, in need of safe places. These gay parents, single or couples, have been studied. They are being studied by social workers. There are home cases done on them. And they have been found to be safe and people of good character.

How can you look those children who desperately need parents in the eye and say to them, no, I'm sorry, because I don't think that this is going to be good for you, you can't have a home? That's just ridiculous.

And we know that, for instance, in the Hawaiian gay marriage case, when the couples brought their suit, the state trotted out every possible reason why it was bad for children to be raised with gay parents. That was the excuse they used why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. Same thing in Vermont, by the way. And the courts struck down every single count that was brought up. And this was not a liberal judiciary that did it.

WILLIAMS: Bobbie, if I could just quickly -- if I could just say one thing just quickly, you see, if you really love the child, if you really have a child's best interests at heart, if you really felt you wanted to adopt the child, why not adopt them as a single parent? Why use yourself as a homosexual couple to legitimatize yourself with marriage to get the benefits of a married couple?

Why not -- see, I don't believe in the long run it is in the child's interests that you really have at heart, because I don't understand how you could even put a child in a situation like that. What happens when the child walks in the bedroom and you and your lover are making out? Are you going to say that's OK, that's what you should emulate?

AMBERG: Well, first of all...

WILLIAMS: There are just so many issues there for that child to deal with.

AMBERG: First of all, parents in general should not be displaying their private sexual behavior in front of their children. WILLIAMS: It's only natural that the child is going to walk in on you.

AMBERG: That's the first thing.

WILLIAMS: It's only natural.

(APPLAUSE)

AMBERG: The second thing is that people have a natural spectrum of sexual behavior, and that in many societies -- for instance, in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that I come from, children go to weddings where men dance with men all the time and nobody thinks anything of it. Please.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break. I've got to take a break here...

AMBERG: Give me a break.

BATTISTA: ... you guys. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: The question today was: Should Florida's ban on gay adoptions be overturned? Let's check the online viewer vote where 58 percent of you are saying yes and 42 percent are saying no.

Quickly to the audience here. Where are we going? Kim?

KIM: Well, I feel that -- I mean, I was raised in a Christian home, and I myself, I claim to be Baptist. And I know that morally maybe female-male -- or female-female, male-male relationships aren't right religiously. But for me personally, I feel that if they can be raised, who is to say that? But you know, like you're putting...

BATTISTA: Well, let that questions hang.

KIM: ... you're passing judgment upon yourself.

BATTISTA: I'm completely out of time. Alan and Armstrong, thank you both so much for joining us. Got to go. Join us again tomorrow at 3:00 for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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