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CNN Talkback Live

The Case of the Missing Intern

Aired June 15, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S MOTHER: I think Mr. Condit, or the person who's been involved with my daughter, should step forward and talk about what's going on.

GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Navy ought to find somewhere else to conduct its exercises.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tiger's contribution to mankind is not going to be golf. It'll be bigger than golf. It'll transcend golf.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN, GUEST HOST: From intern intrigue to sainted superstars, it's TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."

Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. It is "Free-For-All Friday," not just any Friday, "Free-For-All Friday." I'm Miles O'Brien in for Bobbie Battista. She's probably having a free-for-all of her own today.

The president is in Poland. Tiger is playing in the Open. Dodgeball futures are down, while Vieques real estate appears to be headed for a boom. Meanwhile, a Washington intern remains missing, an unsolved mystery, all on our agenda today, "Free-For-All Friday."

Let's start by meeting our rather opinionated guests. Santiago Nieves, a radio talk show host on WBAI in New York; Victoria Jones, radio talk show host on WMAL in Washington; and John Carlson, radio talk show host on KBI in Seattle; and finally in Chicago, Tom Roser, a talk show host on WLS.

Round one of our game, contestants: the president in Europe. The president giving an important speech today in Warsaw. What's the verdict? Dive in. Who wants to take it?

TOM ROSER, WLS RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I'll take it.

O'BRIEN: Go.

ROSER: Roser from Chicago.

O'BRIEN: Go, Roser. ROSER: I think Bush is doing a very good job. The media doesn't seem to understand that. It is saying that he's meeting a lot of opposition, but particularly on the matter of the missile thing, the missile shield. He has gained support from Czechoslovakia. He's gained support from Italy. He is standing up firm for his convictions.

I think that the other side of this is on the Kyoto Treaty, it's very amazing to me that all the demonstrations out there -- and there's only one country that has supported this thing, and that's Romania. Everybody else says no. Australia says, "No, we don't want it at all." So here you have a slanted media which is attacking the president.

O'BRIEN: Oh-oh, he's coming after us already.

VICTORIA JONES, WMAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That's totally untrue. Whoa, whoa, whoa, slanted media? What is that?

O'BRIEN: Before you dive in...

JONES: Go ahead.

O'BRIEN: Let's do James real quick.

Go ahead, James.

JAMES: Well, I don't think at this point President Bush has the knowledge of the world of politics to be dealing with leaders in Europe.

O'BRIEN: All right, we -- Africa was misidentified as a country, right, Victoria?

JONES: I think that's absolutely right. Right, well, it was misidentified as a country. Look, I think he's doing his very best. This is not his forte, and I think he's doing as he's been told by Condoleezza Rice. He's saying what he's supposed to say, and he's appearing where he's supposed to appear.

But OK, so you've got Czechoslovakia on your side with missile defense. I don't think that's who you need on your side in missile defense.

ROSER: Whoa, wait. He has Spain. I'm sorry...

JONES: He's got off Britain. You've got to have France. You've got to have Germany. You've got to have Russia. You've got to have serious big countries on your side in missile defense. He doesn't have them.

And I do think the media in Europe are being very tough on him, but we expected that. And one of the reasons -- and this is a good reason for us why they're being on tough on him, is if he was the president of Iran, we would expect him to have such right-wing views. We would think it was absolutely normal. But because he's so like Europe, because Europe and the U.S. are so close together, it is so surprising to Europe that he seems to be so far to the right.

ROSER: Well, I don't think he's far to the right at all.

JONES: No kidding?

JOHN CARLSON, KVI RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Neither do I.

ROSER: As a matter of fact, he has Italy, he has Spain, he has a number of countries.

SANTIAGO NIEVES, WBAI RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, you know...

ROSER: I want to tell you, I don't really worry about what Europe thinks. We saved them twice in the last century. And what we have to do is stand alone, firm and do what we want and hope they support us.

CARLSON: I think that...

NIEVES: That's the arrogance I think that people -- that we're trying to get away from, the kind of arrogance that for the most part President Bush exemplifies. I'll be frank with you. I think Americans for the most part see President Bush as a kind of rich frat boy from "Animal House" that can't put four words together.

O'BRIEN: All right, you hit a hot button there, Santiago.

CARLSON: You know, I think that -- John Carlson here from Seattle.

O'BRIEN: Yeah, go, John.

CARLSON: I think George W.'s got some Ronald Reagan in him. I think that he understands what's important and he sticks to his guns. And I think that, as we're seeing in Europe and as we're hearing here today, that liberals tend to underestimate him. So I think he's doing just fine.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's go to Eric...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, hold it, hold it. Hey, gentlemen, gentlemen, stop for one second.

JONES: This is not about underestimating him at all.

O'BRIEN: Eric wants to talk.

Go ahead, Eric.

ERIC: In defense of President Bush, I think you should be proud to be an American. If you're not, leave, go to Russia, go to Warsaw. You should be proud to be an American. And I defend President Bush in all of his convictions.

O'BRIEN: All right, there you go.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: American, love it or leave it, gosh darn it.

NIEVES: You know, everyone's applauding...

JONES: I'm a first-generation American. Let me tell you one of the great things about being an American. One of the great things about being an American is having the ability to speak your mind and to have a different point of view without being told to leave and without being put in prison.

NIEVES: Absolutely.

JONES: And we're losing sight of that, and that's very frightening to me.

NIEVES: Yeah, also, you know, I think it's a particularly pernicious remark to make in a country that I think is arguably perhaps one of the most diverse racially ethnically and culturally than anywhere else on earth. I tell you I don't think Bush was a success despite the fact that the Czechs and Italians -- you know, big deal -- are with him on this missile thing. He has a problem with the environment, on the Kyoto protocol and NATO. There isn't a problem he doesn't have.

ROSER: , You know, you know, you ought to understand my friend. And I don't think you do along with a number of other people, that as a matter of fact, this thing is rejected by everybody. It is not acted on except by Romania. Mexico, China and India are exempt from this thing, from the huge polluters. And the idea that he ought to be attacked for not supporting something when, in fact, all of Europe is a hypocrite continent by doing this. I think it's a...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. Why -- let me ask you, Tom, why is Europe a hypocrite continent? Why do you say that?

ROSER: Well, I say that because people are attacking him for not supporting it when, in fact, these countries have been exempt, and in fact only one that signed is Romania. That's hypocrisy.

JONES: Here's the thing. OK, here's the thing about it.

CARLSON: The hypocrisy extends far beyond Europe and goes right to the United States of America. The United States Senate rejected this treaty 97 to nothing. Now this is not a U.S. Senate that agrees on a whole lot.

ROSER: That's right.

CARLSON: But when the Senate unanimously rejects it and then George W. Bush goes to Europe and these countries are attacking him when they won't sign it either suggests to me inconsistency. JONES: And that's the point. The point is, the point is...

CARLSON: And here my liberal friends, all my liberal friends...

JONES: The point that you won't hear from conservatives, because they don't want you to hear this is that everybody knows that there's problems with Kyoto protocol. Nobody thinks that it's perfect. Everybody thinks there's problems with it, and everybody would like to work them out. But unilateral rejection by the U.S. without even discussing it with our allies really looked very arrogant and didn't help the situation.

CARLSON: It's called leadership. It's called leadership. And that what he's showing. Leadership.

ROSER: What a sham it is...

JONES: We could have talked about it and then rejected it. We didn't say (UNINTELLIGIBLE) about leadership. It's about having to work together, because the EU is becoming extremely powerful.

O'BRIEN: Hey, guys, excuse me.

ROSER: What a sham it is to have our liberal friends say how terrible it is when, in fact...

NIEVES: Look, the president in Europe was not successful either in substance or in style.

O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen, ladies, talk about global warming. We're adding to the hot air.

Mary, go.

MARY: Well, I feel like that we supported Bush and elected him as our president whether it was your vote that elected him or somebody else's. He's now our president. And we need to stand behind him as a nation.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: Wait a minute, we've got one other over here.

John, go.

JOHN: I don't know what all these people in Europe's problem is. I mean, they're sitting there and protesting, and you know, all this stuff about George Bush, but their country isn't behind this treaty either. But they're not out there complaining to their government, they're not out there protesting their government. What are they doing in complaining about Bush? They can't do anything about Bush. They can do something about their government. Why aren't they doing that?

JONES: OK, OK, let's...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSER: The answer is that it is orchestrated by...

JONES: There is more than one country in Europe.

O'BRIEN: Hey, I tell you what. Victoria, you go for a bit.

JONES: OK, first off, Europe is not one country. There are several countries in Europe. Secondly, they are protesting in their own countries. Thirdly, let's remember that we had Americans protesting on inauguration day. We had Americans protesting the WTO talks. This is not Europeans against Americans. This is a clash of ideas. It's extremely healthy, and it's only through the clash of ideas that the truth will come out. We shouldn't not be afraid of this kind of confrontation.

CARLSON: Number one, I agree with that. I don't think that George W. Bush or anyone else should be afraid much less intimated by these protests. I mean, some of the protests are complaining about America executing Tim McVeigh. Well, there's just a difference of opinion there. In France, they don't believe in executing mass murderers. In America, we do. Difference of opinion. If people wish to protest and look down on the United States for doing that, fine. But I don't think we should be intimidated.

NIEVES: The point is also in characterizing...

O'BRIEN: Let's dive into the audience quickly.

Jared, go.

NIEVES: We're characterizing these protesters as some kind of crazy people. I think the other guest said it very well. I mean, it's about substance, and they were out there for important issues: the death penalty, the issue on the missile crisis, the environment, NATO. These are important issues to these people.

By the way, the little comment that was made before in the audience I think is kind of very dangerous. I hadn't heard that kind of jingoism in a long time. I think it's a very dangerous place to begin to go in this conversation.

ROSER: Well, what is jingo? Hold on a minute.

O'BRIEN: All right, go ahead, Tom.

ROSER: What is jingoism, anyway, but love of America and it's patriotism? You call it...

NIEVES: Well, that's your definition.

ROSER: Just a minute, I'm not through.

JONES: No, it's not. It's patriotism taken to the nth degree. That's what it is.

ROSER: You call it jingoism.

JONES: And you'll never be through, my friend.

ROSER: No, you call it jingoism when, in fact, it is patriotism. It is somebody who's going in...

JONES: No, there's a difference between a healthy patriotism...

ROSER: I'm not finished yet, ma'am.

NIEVES: You don't use the same -- apparently, you don't use the same dictionary as most of us do.

JONES: You see, jingoism is an extreme thing. Patriotism is a very healthy thing. Saying to people who don't agree with you that they should leave the country is not, I don't think, healthy for a Democratic republic.

NIEVES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: All right, all right, wait, Eric gets to respond to this.

Go ahead, Eric.

ERIC: I didn't say if you disagree with his issues. I said if you don't love America, leave it.

NIEVES: That's worse.

O'BRIEN: Wait a minute, let's get Jared in here. Jared's been trying to talk.

Go ahead, Jared.

JARED: Everyone keeps remarking about how the United States is so arrogant in every sense that we take. I think the problem is that Europe is jealous of our military and our political power.

O'BRIEN: Erin, Erin, go.

CARLSON: The answer is -- yes, that's a very good point. That's a very good point.

O'BRIEN: Hang on one sec. Erin wants to weigh in, then we'll take it to you guys.

ERIN: I think the president and his advisers need to realize that they don't have the mandate they think they do. They lost the popular vote and they need to take a slower, more reasonable approach to international and domestic affairs.

O'BRIEN: All right, well, there's two distinct points there. That's...

(BELL RINGING) I think that is the bell. All right, we're going to move on. And our next topic of discussion is Vieques. A little later, we'll look at why some schools are banning dodgeball, of all things. "Oh," they say here. Do you think it's dangerous for kids? Take the TALKBACK LIVE viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. This is not a scientific poll, folks, but it's OK to have fun with it nevertheless. And that is the question: Should schools ban dodgeball? Looks like so far at least an overwhelming majority of you are dodgeball fans.

And we invite you to send us an AOL instant messenger at -- message at talkback, right, TALKBACK LIVE or talkback? Yes, our buddy list. It's TALKBACK LIVE. Send us a message. All that and much more as TALKBACK LIVE continues. And we are going to be talking about Vieques, the sudden decision to end the bombing drills there. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: All right, we are back. It is "Free-For-All Friday." And President Bush, while he was over there in Europe, managed to reverse what had been longstanding military practice, which was that the prospect of bombing practice training on the island of Vieques in Puerto Rico. But this is something that is not going to happen immediately. And thus the rub: He managed to upset both sides by announcing this.

Santiago Nieves...

NIEVES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... you have some Puerto Rican background. Give us some sight into this story and why everybody is still upset.

NIEVES: Well, everybody is still upset because they didn't ask the president to end the bombing in 2003. They're urging him to stop the bombing now. And the president has said that he will stop the bombing probably around 2003 and that a referendum is supposed to be held in November trying to preempt that.

The governor of Puerto Rico, Sila Calderon, has said that the referendum should take place in July, much sooner, and that the bombing should end immediately. There isn't anyone that I have spoken to on this issue, and I've spoken to the top leaders, to people who have gotten busted for civil disobedience. Not one person says that they're going to accept what the president has offered and add that there is nothing new. This is an agreement essentially that former president Clinton made with the former pro-statehood governor of Puerto Rico. Now the pro-commonwealth governor says that that is out the door, that is not the situation. And people say that they're ready for more civil disobedience. And the bombing has to stop now, not in 2003.

O'BRIEN: Tom Roser, what do you think?

ROSER: Well, I think that -- I'm a little disappointed in President Bush about this. I think the first thing that one must consider is the defense of the United States and the preparation that is made. I think that this sting has been going on for a number of years. The military is entirely in favor of it, says that the conditions can't be duplicated. It's ideal for our training.

And I fear what's happening is that he's listening to a small cadre of people who are segmenting our society and saying, "Well, the Puerto Ricans are mad," and after this, you're going to get somebody else. I think it's a political decision, and I would hope that it would continue so far as military needs it. This is something that has to be done so that our military stays in prime readiness. If our military doesn't stay in prime readiness, all of us will suffer. So I think it would continue. I would hope it would continue, and I would hope that President Bush would reconsider it.

O'BRIEN: Victoria?

JONES: Well, I agree, actually, although for different reasons. First of all, I would like to have seen the president consult with the military before making the decision. I think it was very unfortunate to make such an important decision and announcement unilaterally. It gave a very poor impression to the military.

But I think we also have to bear in mind, as Tom just said, this is political decision. This is about Hispanic votes. And this actually was a Karl Rove special. It was his idea. He thought this would be a really cool way of pleasing everybody. And instead, what he's done is he's ticked everybody off and nobody's happy about this. And the truth is I don't know enough about other places that we could find to know whether this was the right thing to do or not the right thing to do. And I suspect that President Bush doesn't either. That's why he needs to consult with the military on it.

O'BRIEN: So, all right, what do you think, John Carlson?

CARLSON: Well, I'm going to guess that Donald Rumsfeld was not taken by surprise by this. I'm guessing he did consult. But let's bear in mind when you hear the words, "bombing, bombing, bombing," it implies that buildings being destroyed, people being hurt. And that's not what's going on. For years, we've been undergoing...

NIEVES: I'm sorry to differ with you.

CARLSON: Hold on, hold on. We have been training. And that is exactly what these exercises are all about: training. I think that President Bush's suggestion is a moderate course, that is to say, "Yes, we will phase out the exercises, the training exercises, the bombing training exercises, if you will, over a two-year period of time. If you are thinking both about the sentiments of the people who are opposed to this and also our defense needs, I think what he's done is very prudent.

NIEVES: Well, it's not very prudent, in fact. In fact, he hasn't done anything at all. All he said is he's going to rubber stamp essentially what Clinton said. You know, use the remark before kind of characterizing what (UNINTELLIGIBLE) said. Cool. And I think that's kind of mitigating in trying to kind of lessen the importance of what is here. It's not just about Vieques, Puerto Rico. It's about the issue of colonialism and the U.S. relationship with these countries: Guam, the Japanese are now talking about Okinawa I think smartly. It is an international issue. It has gotten international support, and everyone has urged the president to do that.

You know someone just said before that we should stand behind the president. You know, the president decide, President Bush to end it right now. I'm right behind him. And I got news for you. Vieques, in my opinion, is exactly what this president needs to garner the kind of credibility, integrity and all of the kinds of things that I feel he doesn't have. He's getting criticism from the left and the right. He has nothing to lose. How about looking at least at your independent on this issue and saying: You know what? I'm getting this kind of advice, but I'm going to stop that bombing right now. This is my decision." That one thing will bring the kind of integrity to this president and the kind of respect that I don't think he has.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's get a couple of e-mails in here real quick. Tom in New Mexico says, "Why should our military stop bombing at Vieques? They get our military protection for free. They don't pay a dime of income tax. So until they become a state, letting us conduct military exercises there should be a form of payment."

And then from Jeff in the Bronx...

NIEVES: Well, you know, that -- yeah. I'd love to tackle that. That's an outrage. First of all, you know, it's the way the U.S. looks at Puerto Rico. It's like their personal backyard. It is not. People live in Puerto Rico, and many people are not happy with what I consider at least at this point the colonial status, which I think is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the associated state.

(BELL RINGING)

O'BRIEN: All right, ladies and gentlemen, that is the end of that round.

ROSER: I'll tell you what. Why don't they leave? Why don't they -- if they don't like being colonial...

NIEVES: Who is they? Who's they?

ROSER: The Puerto Ricans. If they don't like...

NIEVES: You know, well, the Puerto Ricans -- I got news about...

ROSER: If they don't like it there, why don't they just declare independence and get out?

NIEVES: You speak to the ignorance nationally about Puerto Ricans.

O'BRIEN: All right, all right....

ROSER: I'm not speaking to ignorance. I'm saying they ought to get out. If they don't like their status, they ought to withdraw, declare independence.

O'BRIEN: All right, sorry gentleman. You rope a dope for the whole segment. Now you're trading blows and now we've got to go on to the next segment.

Up next, the case of the missing intern. We'll be back with that one as round three begins.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH COTCHETT, CONDIT ATTORNEY: The news media -- some of the news media, not all of it, has taken this frenzied situation, turned it on its head and is looking now only at the relationship between a congressman and an intern when we should be devoting all resources to finding this very fine young woman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday." Round three: the case of the missing intern. Washington intern Chandra Levy's been missing now for six weeks. So far, the investigation has turned up little more than an alleged romantic relationship between Levy and California congressman Gary Condit. Condit has denied it.

Is the media focusing way too much on the congressman or just the opposite? Before we go to our professional guests, let's go to Pat who has a comment about this.

Go ahead, Pat.

PAT: Well, first and foremost, I'd like to really feel sad for the family, Ms. Levy's family, because that's very tragic. But I do think that this has just been taken out of proportion because we have politicians involved. And I think we're plagued with hearsay and gossip in our nation with regards to politicians. And I think we need to let the police do their job.

O'BRIEN: All right, so your answer would be not so much coverage.

Helen, go ahead. Your point?

HELEN: I don't think that it's gossip at all, and I don't think the media is overdoing it at all, because I think it should be cause for concern if anyone's child is missing. And I think the media is doing good job in promoting this so we can help find this intelligent woman.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's move it on to the professional talkers for a moment, and then we'll try to get the audience back in.

Folks, what do you think? ROSER: Yeah, well I have a view of it. And my view is simply this. That watching the attorney yesterday somewhat dismissing the idea that, well, there was an affair, possibly there was an affair, but let's find out who. I think that is a very kind of a "So what?" attitude. I think it ought to be intensified. I think the fact that he is a member of Congress, I think the fact he is a policy maker really intensifies this thing. He's supposed to be, you know, a kind of a model for us. Maybe he is. But I'm not satisfied that they aren't covering up something. And it could well be -- I would think it ought to have a federal investigation because he is a federal officer.

JONES: But you can imagine that in Washington, D.C., this is a major local story, and we've been talking about this. My understanding is that there's quite a lot of pressure on Congressman Condit now on the Hill to speak up, to which he says, well, he's here to do work and he hasn't had time, which is amazing, because they always find time to have press conferences about other things.

We heard about the media frenzy. If Condit had spoken a month ago, there wouldn't be a media frenzy. This guy is doing his PR from the John and Patsy Ramsey playbook. I cannot imagine how he could possibly create a worse image for himself in what is really a tragic case. We don't know what happened. We don't know what he's telling us. We do know that this woman disappeared from her home with only her keys, which is very bizarre.

O'BRIEN: All right, now wait a minute. Baki has a good point here. We're making an awful lot of assumptions on this story -- go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who necessarily says that she's missing, you know? She might not want to be found. Who knows what kind of problems that her and this congressman had? And if she doesn't want to be found, I think we should just leave it alone. If they haven't found her yet she probably don't want to be found.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: What we have here is a story that combines politics, mystery, crime, and sex. Of course there's going to be a huge amount of interest in the nation's capital.

JONES: Absolutely.

NIEVES: Actually, it's a story -- the way you just described it, it's a story that has legs anywhere. Even if it weren't an elected official, and I agree with the first gentleman that talked, the fact he is an incredible story. If were working for a Hollywood producer and got a script, I would say, this is a little contrived.

(CROSSTALK)

ROSER: I see the shadow of partisan politics in all this. If this congressman would have been, say, Bob Barr of Georgia, or if he would have been Newt Gingrich, or if he would have been anyone else on the conservative Republican side, you would have Dan Rather and Peter Jennings and everybody, including...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Hang on. Let me ask the audience. Does the audience agree with that last point because -- by applause -- would you tell me if you agreed with that last point, the fact that this is not being covered as much because Mr. Condit is a Democrat. Agree with me by applause.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: Well, I'd say it's a mixed bag. All right, Corishna (ph) weigh in here.

CORISHNA: OK, the media is focusing too much on scandal, the politics. They need to focus on finding this girl. It's six weeks, they don't know where she is. It's a girl that's missing. They need to find her. Don't focus on the drama and all that. Focus on finding the girl.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Lindsey.

LINDSEY: A lot of people say that they're really worried that this girl is missing. But obviously they're not too worried because they're not out there searching for. All they're trying to do is slander her name and this Congressman's name.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: They are trying to find her.

(CROSSTALK)

(BELL RINGING)

O'BRIEN: Give me that mike back! Lindsey! Stand up and take a bow, will you -- stand up! Holy cow! Got to take a break, the bell has rung. Lindsey just took over the show, and actually outtalked four professional talkmeisters. Lindsey -- a round of applause for Lindsey, ladies and gentlemen.

Is the world's best golfer more powerful than Neslon Mandela? I'll sat that again. Is Tiger Woods more powerful than Nelson Mandela? No, says the audience.

Also, don't forget to use AOL's instant messenger. Drop us a line if you don't have it already. Go to our Website: cnn.com/talkback, click on the little yellow man and the rest is just duck soup. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) EARL WOODS, TIGER WOODS' FATHER: Tiger right now is just barely getting in touch with his own power. I have the power also, and I recognize it, and I use it. He is just getting aware that he has this power. And when he is full control of that power, he can then make a difference in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back to "Free-For-All-Friday." With Father's Day coming up, let's talk about the proud papa, Earl Woods. You might remember a few years ago Earl compared his son, Tiger, to Ghandi. Well, this week the elder Woods told "TV Guide" that the first time Tiger ever met his equal was when the golfer met Nelson Mandela.

And the audience is upset about that. As a matter of fact, there are quite a few people here are upset about it. Let's go over to Bobbie -- not Bobbie Battista -- Bobbie from Mississippi -- go, Bobbie.

BOBBIE: Thanks, hi. Well, I just think that Tiger's father made a grammatical error. And that his analogy is poorly stated. If he would have said that Tiger Woods is to golf as Mandela is to politics in South Africa, it would have been a better statement.

If anybody says that Tiger isn't an icon in his own right, does not know the history of people of color in this country. In other words, we could not go on to golf courses, and there are still golf courses that people of color can not go on to. So Tiger is an icon in his own right. I would not necessarily put him in the same category with Mandela.

O'BRIEN: Sean, quickly, then we'll go to our guests.

SEAN: I think there's a pretty clear difference between being a great golfer and liberating a country. However, Tiger Woods is an outstanding figure who will have great influence and power in the years ahead if he carefully nurtures it. The one mistake that can be made now is for his father to start categorizing him with world figures such as Ghandi, such as Nelson, because by that kind of comparison, that's when people begin to take exception.

O'BRIEN: All right. Laquita (ph) -- Laquita go ahead.

NIEVES: And also it's outrageously pretentious. Is this like the Beatles who said that they were as popular as Jesus? If you remember, you know, I have a problem with the sport to begin with -- I'll be frank with you. I never loved golf. I've always seen, as Rosie O'Donnell put it one time, I think she said white men in plaid pants walking. Why would anyone want to be a star is fine.

But having said that you have to give him the kind of credit that he deserves. I understand he is a master at this sport, however to say that he is Ghandi-like, or Nelson Mandela, I really think it's just a dad who's kind of being proud. I don't think we should put too much attention to it, but it was kind of an unfortunate analogy, when he said about Nelson Mandela, as the other speaker said, certainly the political aspect was out of it. But who is -- who is he? Who is he? You know, in the beginning...

(CROSSTALK)

NIEVES: African-Americans, if you remember, African-Americans...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He plays a sport. It's a sport. When someone paves a way for black people through the struggle, he ain't struggle through nothing. He plays sports. He didn't struggle through nothing. He didn't make it where black people can vote. You've got -- the first black president was Nelson Mandela. He ain't no president! He's a sporter. He's paving a way for black sporters in golf, but he doesn't get credit for anything else.

NIEVES: We agree. OK, I agree.

ROSER: The interesting thing that I think all of you are forgetting is that a couple of years ago Tiger Woods did not categorize himself as black. He talked about mixed races and...

NIEVES: Cablanasian, he called himself, right?

ROSER: This should not be elevated at all to a black-white thing about he's the greatest and everything else. As a matter of fact, we have dignified sports far too much. We have given them far too much credit. They are just able to, sort of be a little stronger than the rest of us. That shouldn't be equated with either a Mandela or a Martin Luther King...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Audience, do you agree with that?

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: The difference is that they've got a lot of money and we haven't. That's one of the differences. The other thing is, I don't think this is being made about race, because the other thing that he was compared with was Ghandi. This is bizarre.

The other thing Earl Woods said was that Tiger shouldn't get married because a wife would distract him. I think Earl Woods has some issues of his own that he needs to work on. I'd actually like to hear from Tiger's mom on some of this, too.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's listen to Sean quickly, then some e- mails -- go.

SEAN: As an Indian, I think it's a horrible comparison to compare him to Ghandi, and I believe that Mr. Earl Woods should actually go on television and correct himself upon his analogy. Nelson Mandela spent two and a half decades in prison. Tiger Woods is a great golfer. Granted, he's a wonderful golfer and he's a good sportsman, but it's a horrible analogy, just a horrible analogy.

(BELL RINGING)

O'BRIEN: All right, real quick e-mails. Real quick e-mails:

"Tiger has earned the respect in golf, but as far as the world matters go, he has a long way to go." Jim, in Dartmouth, Massachusetts.

"Tiger Woods is merely a talented athlete. He should be treated as that and nothing more." Cal in Brookesville.

Finally: "Tiger Woods is not Ghandi, just a young man who's been blessed with extraordinary and exception skills," Tom, in Alamogordo, New Mexico. I think we can all achieve a consensus on one round of this Free-for-all Friday. All right!

Up next: dodgeball. Now, this is an issue which has got people upset here in the audience. Dodge ball pro or dodge ball con? You can weigh in in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Oh, my gosh, we have hit upon a subject. We have hit upon a subject. Ladies and gentlemen, dodgeball is a hot-button issue. What do you remember about dodgeball? I don't have great memories about dodgeball, I've got to confess.

JONES: It's a silly, but you can play it nice or you can play it mean. The one thing you're not going to do is to ban this thing. It's as crazy as stopping kids from of playing cops and robbers. Leave it alone.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about this. First of all, Lee has a scenario here. She says it's a very slippery slope. If we lose dodgeball, we are losing the whole shooting match. Go, Lee.

LEE: I thought that if we let one person sit out in a game, they were saying that it is required that everyone will sit out, and that is taking away from our exercise that everyone needs.

O'BRIEN: And then?

LEE: We become obese.

O'BRIEN: And then?

LEE: We would die.

O'BRIEN: We lose our freedom, that's it! OK, Lindsay, what's -- now, Lindsay has a terrible, terrible tale to tell. If you have small children in the room, you might want to excuse them right now as she tells you her story about dodgeball. LINDSAY: No, I was just standing there. I didn't want to play. OK, I didn't want to play or anything. And I was just standing there trying to avoid the ball as much as possible. But the whole object of dodgeball is to hit the person as hard as you can with the ball and knock them out.

Well, this is what this person did. They hit me -- they hit me in the head and I had stitches all in my eyes, like, 18 of them, because I got knocked into a cement wall, because the dodgeball spun me around. And I think it's terrible -- it's a terrible game. And like a lot of people say, yeah, there are other sports that are violent. Yes, but football, you get padding. You have other things to protect yourself with. Softball, you get gloves. Tennis...

O'BRIEN: All right, Lindsey. Who here feels sympathy for Lindsey?

One, two, three -- oh, no.

(BOOING)

NIEVES: Listen, I fee sympathy for her. I feel sympathy for her.

O'BRIEN: She just got verbal dodgeballs.

All right, guys. Why don't you weigh in on this thing?

NIEVES: Look, I have sympathy for her, but I don't think you need to ban it. Look, that's the responsibility of parents. They need to assess what they feel is or is not dangerous to their child, and have them play dodgeball through permission, a slip or something, or no, I feel my child is going to get hurt. To me, it's as simple as that, but I think it should fall on parents and their responsibilities that they feel with their child.

It's also not illegal or immoral for parents to go into the school to see how the game is played.

ROSER: Beyond that -- I think, beyond that, and I happen to agree with this gentleman. It's unusual, but...

NIEVES: There's a news flash right there. Ladies and gentlemen, we agreed twice. This is just in to CNN...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSER: Beyond that, I think the attempt -- I think the attempt to ban dodgeball or to discourage it professionally and everything else, is part of the sissying of America. America should have...

NIEVES: You had to throw that in, didn't you?

O'BRIEN: The sissying of America!

ROSER: He could talk down, but I mean, just don't interfere right now. I just want to make a point. I think that simply by trying to ban dodgeball you make us sissies and consequently it's the feminization of the sport. If the young lady doesn't want to play...

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Excuse me, I think we have a slight problem between semantics here. There's a difference between being a sissy and being feminine, and I find it extremely offensive that you apparently think the sissification of America...

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

ROSER: ... being a coward, I don't know...

O'BRIEN: Tom, let me ask you this, Tom. Did you get picked last? Let me ask you honestly, did you?

(CROSSTALK)

ROSER: I think there is a move in America to somehow trim away all of the -- all of the -- like, for instance, bullying is another thing. Gee, you can't -- you know, show us people who have not grown as a result of being bullied in school.

(CROSSTALK)

NIEVES: ... that's the first time that I have heard anyone say that bullying is a process -- needs to be a process of growing up.

CARLSON: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Mr. Carlson, get in there.

CARLSON: The war against dodgeball is...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSER: You have to learn how to handle bullies, you have to learn how to...

JONES: I think we have all learned to how to handle you. Let's have John speak. Let's let John...

O'BRIEN: Let's head out to Seattle, let's head to Seattle, please. OK. Hello, Seattle, are you still there?

CARLSON: Yes, I am still here and enjoying this. The war against dodgeball is part of a larger war against competition in schools. There's also an attempt to phase out kickball in the schools, because they don't think that competition should be encouraged because it might hurt some students' self-esteem.

I think that's nonsense...

JONES: So do I.

CARLSON: I think competition should be encouraged, because I think that's now you generate self-esteem.

O'BRIEN: All right, quickly, quickly, quickly, Heba (ph) has been watching the chat. Just give us a sense of what they are saying out there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. The people are just saying that dodgeball is not harmless at all, and other sports are more violent as well. People need to get over it, they need to learn their reflexes. This is what dodgeball builds, it builds reflexes and.

O'BRIEN: All right. Everybody is taking my microphone on this show. What's the deal here? It's my microphone!

All right. We are going to take a break. That's the bell for that one. We will check in on that quick vote to see what you think in just a moment. We'll be back with one final segment in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: All right. That's Pat -- Pat is still talking about Tiger Woods. Let's check in on the vote. Pat, we value your opinion, but we don't have much time.

Should schools ban dodgeball? 83 percent of you who voted say no, 17 percent of you say yes. Dodgeball rules, ladies and gentlemen! And so does TALKBACK LIVE. Thanks for joining us. I'm Miles O'Brien, on behalf of Bobbie Battista who is off today. We'll see you on Monday.

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