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CNN Talkback Live
Free-for-All Friday
Aired June 22, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, we have five children at the morgue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you understand what it is you're charge with, ma'am?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am shocked. I really didn't think that they would be out now.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Condit.
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(BEGIN FILM CLIP, "ALL IN THE FAMILY")
JEANNE STAPLETON, ACTRESS: Songs that made the hit parade.
(END FILM CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carroll O'Connor clearly created the most indelible character in the history of American television.
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(BEGIN FILM CLIP, "ALL IN THE FAMILY")
CARROLL O'CONNOR, ACTOR: Those were the days.
STAPLETON: Those were the days. (END FILM CLIP)
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Thank you all for joining us on this "Free-For-All Friday." It was a somber week in the news. It really was a rough one.
Joining us to try to make some sense out of all of it today are Sam Greenfield, host of the "Sam Greenfield Show" on Newstalk 1050, WEVD in New York.
Sam, good to see you.
Holly McClure is with us, a radio talk show host at KPRZ in San Diego.
Welcome back, Holly.
HOLLY MCCLURE, KPRZ RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
BATTISTA: Lincoln Ware, who hosts a show on WDBZ in Cincinnati.
Lincoln, good to see you.
LINCOLN WARE, WDBZ RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good to see you.
BATTISTA: And Eileen Byrne from WLS Radio in Chicago.
Eileen, welcome to the show.
EILEEN BYRNE, WLS RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you. Nice to be here.
BATTISTA: : All right, first up today, that tragic, horrible story out of Houston, where Andrea Yates faces capital murder charges now for allegedly drowning her five children in a bathtub. Those charges leave her open to the death penalty. She has been given a court-appointed attorney. Yates' husband says his wife suffered from postpartum depression. She made a court appearance today, so CNN correspondent Ed Lavandera is in Houston now with the very latest -- Ed.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bobbie, Andrea Yates, 36- year-old Andrea Yates made that court appearance at 7:30 this morning Central time. It was a three-minute court appearance, but that was enough time for Andrea Yates to tell the judge that she did understand the capital murder charge that has been filed against her, and that she did not have enough money to find her own defense attorney. So as you mentioned, an attorney has been appointed for her. His name is Bob Scott. We have not heard from him yet. He is a Houston lawyer here.
The building -- the red brick building behind you see behind me, that is the jail here in Houston where Andrea Yates is sitting right now. And she is not scheduled to make another court appearance until July 24th -- Bobbie. BATTISTA: Ed, has her husband -- we know he held that news conference yesterday. He was remarkably open during that press conference. Has he had a chance to talk with his wife at all yet?
LAVANDERA: He did not make it to the court appearance this morning. It was really quick and just -- and he wasn't here. He has been seen back at the family home in the suburban neighborhood just south of Houston, and that's where he is this morning. He told a reporter there this morning that he has been spending a lot of time just trying to make finalized funeral arrangements for his five children. Apparently, there has been, he told us yesterday, an outpouring of support from the community here. People donating money to help him cover the expenses for those five funerals. But that's what he's been taking care of now.
Talking to him yesterday, he was kind of confused exactly what kind of process he needs to go through just to be able to speak to his wife. He was under the impression that there were some visiting hours on Friday at the jail but still no word if he'll be able to do that today or at some point later on this weekend.
BATTISTA: And any indication as to whether or not the D.A. will pursue the death penalty in this capital case?
LAVANDERA: They are not saying that at all. We spoke with a couple of the prosecutors who will be handling this case. It's very preliminary for them. And they really weren't willing to tip their hat at this point as to what avenue they will take as they move forward with this case.
BATTISTA: All right, Ed Lavandera, thank you so much once again for bringing us up-to-date. Now to our panelists.
You guys, you know the postpartum depression, or really in her case postpartum psychosis, will obviously be used in an attempt to explain why she did what she did.
Is that a valid defense, Holly, do you think?
MCCLURE: Well, actually, it is a valid defense in some situations. This has been known and documented in cases where women have had postpartum depression, PMS that's gone overboard. There's been a woman that threw a baby out of a car. And so these situations have happened before.
I think where this one's kind of different and places it in a different category is those were impulsive acts that happened and behavior that happened quickly. Drowning five children took some time and some thought, and you would think that at some point, you know, surely, it snapped her out of it. So I don't know if you could use this defense, Bobbie, in this situation, because...
BATTISTA: Well, I guess that's assuming you're...
MCCLURE: ... I felt it was premeditated. BATTISTA: You know, to say that, you know, why didn't she snap out of it, you're assuming that she was coming at it with a rationale state of mind at some point.
MCCLURE: Well, that's what they say postpartum depression is is an irrational state of mind. They say that it puts a woman in a situation where she's not rationally thinking, she can't control her actions or behavior. And it is documented. It is a medical situation and problem with a lot of women, especially after they've had infants, you know, close together and after a certain period of time.
BATTISTA: Lincoln, what do you think?
WARE: Well, I mean, you can't go -- I hope the prosecutors won't seek the death penalty. I mean, she's got a history of mental illness, and you've got to go with that. I don't know whether she should be let out on the streets again, but I don't think she should get the death penalty. This happens over and over again to women. There's got to be something there that's causing this. No woman in their right mind would do this type of crime to their children.
BYRNE: I agree. I don't think that she should get the death penalty either, because I would hate to see additional punishment to the husband. He's already lost five of his children. I would hate to see that he lost his wife as well. But I think there are a number of signs that maybe the family could have recognized. One thing that struck me about the whole thing is: Why was this woman, this poor woman, who suffered this way, had attempted suicide, why was she home schooling five children? I mean, maybe the kids won't go to Harvard, but at least they would still be alive. So that was one thing.
In addition, she had been taking anti-psychotic medication. She was no longer taking that. They didn't -- they weren't also in therapy again. She wasn't going into therapy. I think there are some telltale signs that if she wasn't capable enough to go to a child's birthday party, then maybe she should have been hospitalized. She had already been previously hospitalized. I think the family missed some big signs, and that's the most unfortunate thing. Maybe this tragedy could have been prevented.
BATTISTA: Sam.
SAM GREENFIELD, WEVD RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I don't think the death penalty has any relevance here. What can you do to her? Is killing her going to -- putting her to death going to do anything? Nothing. This woman is not of her own mind. And I understand people saying, well, they should have seen the signs. I was -- I have personal experience in my life with someone who is a severe manic depressive. And when it happens, it happens like that. One minute, they're fine, as the husband said. One minute - you know, for stretches at a time, she was fine, and then she would go through this for stretches at a time. It's very hard to look at somebody who's in the throes of deep depression and say, "All right, I better do something, because the next day, they'll be different. And it's very tough. But the death penalty is ridiculous. There's nothing you can do to this woman, nothing. BYRNE: But at the same time, you've got a -- they went through this already with the fourth child. Why then would you have a fifth child? I mean, she attempted suicide then. Maybe they wanted to round out the family by having a girl to match the four boys, but at that time, I would think, you know, maybe we should stop having children, have a vasectomy. I wouldn't have anymore kids.
BATTISTA: He did make a point of saying that they both wanted to have as many children as they could. And I think they clearly were not practicing birth control, so I'm not sure there was any planning.
WARE: And this woman never did have a break. She never did have a break.
GREENFIELD: There was no planning at all.
WARE: And she never had a break from the kids. I mean, she was there home schooling. Go ahead.
MCCLURE: My concern is -- I'm sorry. My concern is the precedence this is going to set, though, for other women who will see this case and who will commit heinous crimes against their children or another member of the family...
GREENFIELD: Oh, my.
MCCLURE: ... and then say they blame it on postpartum depression.
BATTISTA: I don't know how rare it is, but you know, for mothers to take their own children's lives. Usually I think it happens, it's accidental.
GREENFIELD: I don't think someone's going to see this and seize on the opportunity to kill their children. This woman was mentally ill.
MCCLURE: It's already happened. No, it's already happened.
GREENFIELD: If another mentally ill person commits a heinous crime, they're mentally ill. But to say that someone who is upset because their kid got a B minus sees it as a chance to smack junior around or something worse is wrong.
WARE: Well, we had a case here in Cincinnati reported that just was reported this morning where a woman had three girls. She told them to close the windows and go to bed. She turns the gas stove on and tells them to go to sleep, and they go to sleep. And one of the oldest of the girls happened to wake up and started -- she smelled something. She heard a knock at the door, and it was one of her mother's friends. And he came in and turned the stove off. This was just reported on the news this morning in Cincinnati.
MCCLURE: It's happening all the time, you guys. And my concern I'm saying is this, that people that really don't have postpartum depression or don't have a mental problem like this will use that as a defense, as an excuse for the crimes they do commit. We see it all the time happen.
BYRNE: I don't think that's going to be the case. I don't think that's going to be the case. It's not that we're saying that she shouldn't get the death penalty, but certainly, she should get a heck of a lot of jail time. I don't think we're going to see that.
GREENFIELD: Let me ask this question: Do you think it's happening more or do you think because there's more media, we cover it more?
MCCLURE: I think it's happening more.
WARE: I think it's happening more.
MCCLURE: I think there's more stress situations.
BYRNE: I think it's the media. I think there's more awareness on this.
BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call quickly from Frank in Illinois and get the audience in here.
Frank, go ahead.
Caller: Yes, Bobbie. I just wanted to say that as far as the defense trying to use this postpartum depression, I can understand what's wrong with that and so on. But for her to methodically kill each child one by one, and with a seven-year-old, he had to have been struggling. I'm sure this woman knew exactly what she was doing.
BATTISTA: Let me go up to the audience, and Holly.
HOLLY: Thank you. First of all, I think that this is hopefully going to bring up a very important issue for all women in this country, and that is the issue of delivering children and not getting enough support from the hospitals and the doctors who take care of them. There needs to be more intervention. We need to know more about the women who are being left home from the hospitals as to what their mental situations are, who they're going home to, who their support networks are. That's lacking in this country.
I also think that too many men and women think of maternal instinct as letting -- leading women to think and men to think that women know how to handle children and can handle one, two and more children. And that's not correct. There are a lot of women out there, just as men who need the support from the system. I would like to see this issue be directed more, not so much to the crime, but prevention. How do we help women who need help who are bringing children home? And by the way, this...
BATTISTA: I do think this story will throw a lot of light on some of these things. That's all we can hope for, really, at this point. And I've got to take a break here. We're obviously going to dispense with the bell today. The question, though: Should prosecutors seek the death penalty in the Andrea Yates case? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. AOL key word: CNN.
Up next, the search for Chandra Levy.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: The search for Washington intern Chandra Levy goes on. California Congressman Gary Condit apparently met yesterday with Susan Levy, the intern's mother. Attorney Billy Martin, who represents Levy's parents, issued a statement saying that Condit was accompanied by his attorney, Abbe Lowell, who we may hear from, by the way, later on this hour. Martin says Condit gave his assurance that he'll meet again with investigators.
Lowell, as we said, is expected to make some sort of statement sometime in the next 45 minutes, and we'll bring that to you live when it happens.
Now, you guys, the thing that bothers me about this story a little bit is I don't care whether Congressman Condit talks to the press or not, but I don't quite understand why, you know -- he's met with the police once, and as I understand it, he was very cooperative. They've asked to meet with him a second time. Since Wednesday, it's constantly been postponed or you know, like what piece of legislation could be more important than this, or what -- I don't understand why he's not running to the police station to say, "What can I help you with?"
BYRNE: Especially since they're friends. I mean, if this is what you call a friend, I'd hate to see what the enemies are. I mean, he should be out there...
GREENFIELD: Yeah, but this is a guy who's essentially...
BYRNE: He should be out there in the forefront and try -- he's the one with the connections. He's the one with the contacts. He should be out there working with the police, giving every bit of information that he can to try -- what's more concerned to him is reputation or his friend, trying to get this woman back home?
WARE: You have to admit, he's acting awfully strange. GREENFIELD: As of yesterday morning, the police said this person is not a suspect. I just want to say two words: Richard Jewell. Let us not rush to judgment. This guy right now is not a suspect. Any relationship he had with her -- I'm sure he's not responding to police now on advice of counsel since his counsel's going to be making a statement within the hour. That's why he's not making a statement, but if the police are not...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLURE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, though.
GREENFIELD: If the police -- please. If the police are not holding him as a suspect, why are we?
MCCLURE: Sam, we're not...
WARE: He's acting awfully strange, you have to admit. I mean...
MCCLURE: This man is in the public eye, you guys. He's not just another person off the street. This man owes a lot to the public to explain because he's an official in the public eye in government. So in politics, you do have a representation, you do have a responsibility to represent the truth. And why won't he if there's nothing to hide?
WARE: You're right. He should have been running to the police.
GREENFIELD: His representation of those people has nothing to do with this case, nothing.
WARE: He should have been running to the police, telling them...
GREENFIELD: He went to the police. He went to the police. The police questioned him.
WARE: He's acting awfully strange.
GREENFIELD: They said he's not a suspect.
WARE: OK, first of all, first of all...
BYRNE: It doesn't matter. He's got information. He's got information maybe about her whereabouts, maybe of her mental state at the time.
GREENFIELD: And he will respond to the police within a timetable mutually agreed, not by our a agreement. It's his life.
WARE: But if you look at the facts of the case, how she was missing...
BYRNE: What's more important? The longer this goes, the less chance she's going to come back alive.
GREENFIELD: His rights are more important. BATTISTA: Do you think...
WARE: Let's take it back to her apartment where she left there without her purse. Now we know any woman will not leave her apartment without her purse unless she's going to be very comfortable around the person that she's going to be with. Now wouldn't you say that? Now her purse was left in the apartment.
BATTISTA: Wait, wait. You know what? She could have grabbed a $20 to run down to the drugstore to get something before she went home.
WARE: There was no struggle in the apartment. She was with somebody that she knew very well for her to leave that purse there.
(CROSSTALK)
BYRNE: bottom line is you would think...
GREENFIELD: ... from behind indicates no struggle, also.
BATTISTA: All right, do you think you guys...
GREENFIELD: You know, you hit someone from behind, there's no struggle.
BATTISTA: Do you think this should be upgraded -- you know, when the Levys met with the police yesterday, the police declined to upgrade this from a missing persons case. I mean, do you think after seven weeks, it should be a full-blown criminal investigation? There's no evidence of foul play.
GREENFIELD: Maybe the parents indicated some form of her behavior that indicates to them they don't have to do. Has anybody talked about the fact that she worked as intern at the Bureau of Prisons and maybe ran into some unsavory people there? Has that ever been a possibility for conjecture?
WARE: That's a possibility.
BYRNE: Let everybody come out with the information that they have, including Congressman Condit.
MCCLURE: Right, that's the point.
BYRNE: If you watch him -- if you watch him, his body language, his facial expressions, he looks...
GREENFIELD: He looks shifty. Is that it?
BYRNE: I'm not saying that he has anything to do with it.
WARE: But politicians do anyway. He's a politician.
GREENFIELD: Well, you know, put a light in my face and a mike in my mouth and I'm conducting other business, and I'm going, "I don't want to." Everybody will look shifty. Gee, the way his body moves, he must be -- oh, no.
MCCLURE: Wait, wait, no. It's been proven that he was with the girl, he knew her intimately. It was proven that he had a relationship with her.
GREENFIELD: Intimately?
MCCLURE: A friendship, an intimate friendship, yes.
GREENFIELD: Well, there's a difference in our society between intimately and friendship.
MCCLURE: Hey, no, he owes it to the parents...
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: That word intimate.
BATTISTA: Well, you know what, you guys?
GREENFIELD: It doesn't mean best friend.
BATTISTA: You know what concerns me is that her parents thought that she was having an affair with him.
MCCLURE: Exactly.
BATTISTA: And there had to have been good reason for her parent to think that.
MCCLURE: Exactly, exactly.
GREENFIELD: With an older man.
MCCLURE: And wouldn't you think you'd try to console them.
WARE: I don't think there's any doubt that they were having an affair. I don't think there's any doubt about that at this point.
MCCLURE: Wouldn't you think he'd try to console the parents, you know, try to at least console the parents, let them know, "Look, I'm doing everything I can do to assure you that you have no reason to mistrust me or doubt me." Wouldn't you think he'd be at least doing that?
GREENFIELD: How do you know he hasn't done that? He just doesn't let you know he did it.
MCCLURE: Because we know he hasn't done it. The parents have said he hasn't. The parents have made a statement. They've been pleading to him, "Please tell us what you know. Meet with us." He won't even do that.
GREENFIELD: And maybe on advice of counsel, he was told not to. Maybe there are legal ramifications around here that I don't know about. BATTISTA: Well, let me ask you about that. Both sides have engaged these high-powered attorneys. I guess the congressman felt it was necessary to do that, but why?
WARE: You know, I would just go to the police, say, "I don't have anything to hide."
MCCLURE: Exactly, right.
WARE: "Ask me anything you want to ask me."
GREENFIELD: The police have said he's not a suspect. What else can he do with the police? Please, the police has said he's not a suspect. If he's not a suspect, why does he have to do anything else?
WARE: Right. He does need an attorney.
GREENFIELD: They know how to get hold of him. He's not hiding. He's not up at red rock. He's right -- you know, he's in D.C. and California.
WARE: Yeah, but why hire an attorney? If you're not guilty of anything, why hire an attorney.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: Lincoln, would you hire an attorney if you were him?
WARE: No, I would not hire an attorney at this point.
GREENFIELD: I would be on the phone like -- are you kidding me?
BATTISTA: I just got a...
BYRNE: ... comes out, what her mental state was, where they used to go together if they did. He has a lot of information.
MCCLURE: Right.
BYRNE: I'm not saying that he's a suspect.
MCCLURE: I'm not either.
BYRNE: But he's got a lot of information. I think it's very suspicious that he only talks -- he only makes a statement only after the parents do.
WARE: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BYRNE: He's the one that's getting all the media attention.
GREENFIELD: Where's the pecking order for statements? Where's the golden book of statement order? What's that about. I don't understand that. WARE: He's making himself look awfully suspicious.
BATTISTA: Let me -- I just got an e-mail from Kathy in Pittsburgh who says, "Regrettably, the congressman has already has his reputation ruined by the media. What happens to him if he is cleared? Will they say, 'Sorry'?" Do you think his reputation has been ruined?
WARE: No. And if he's cleared, then he'll be a hero.
BATTISTA: That's a good question.
GREENFIELD: Oh, no, no, no, no. It's like Ray Donovan said, the secretary of labor, "How do I get my reputation back?" You think it won't be soiled? We got three people up here saying he's guilty. The rest of the press says he's guilty...
MCCLURE: We aren't saying he's guilty.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: ... because you can tell by the way he walks.
BYRNE: I'm not saying -- don't put words in my mouth.
GREENFIELD: What's that? You can tell by the shifty way he moves his body something's up?
BYRNE: I'm not saying he's guilty. I'm saying that he needs to be more forward with the information that he has.
WARE: Look, if he's innocent, take a lie detector test. Submit to a lie detector test.
MCCLURE: As a public figure, he has a responsibility.
GREENFIELD: All a lie detector test indicates is that you're nervous and your pulse rate is up. It's not lie detector, it's a pulse rate detector. That's why they're not admissible in court.
WARE: Well, if I were innocent, I would submit to one. If I were innocent, I'd say, "Give me lie detector test."
MCCLURE: Yeah, me, too.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: While we ponder that, I have to take a break here. And again a reminder that we are expecting Abbe Lowell, Congressman Condit's attorney, to make a statement in a few minutes. We'll bring that to you live when it happens. So we'll continue with this subject when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: OK let me get the audience in on this quickly. We had a couple of comments during the break. Maria, go ahead.
MARIA: Well, I just feel that since he is in the public light that we never hear the story afterwards. Suppose he has no contact or is not connected with her disappearance. We won't hear that after the effects. So actually, his reputation could be affected by this even if he is totally innocent. And I do believe he should be very cooperative. But does he have to be smeared across America on television 24 hours a day or can this be handled off the air, his connection?
BYRNE: I'd rather see him more worried about his friend than his reputation.
GREENFIELD: There's a great line from the movie, "The Quiz Show." The only time they leave you alone is when they're leaving you alone. As long as this story is hot, the press will pick at it. And then when the story dies down, they'll issue a retraction, if by chance he's innocent of all these charges, on page 98 billion and they'll move on.
MCCLURE: Doesn't matter. He's in the public eye. He can issue his own statement if he wants to, and he has the power of the media to do it.
GREENFIELD: I think he's about to through the advice of counsel.
BYRNE: And he should. He should. He should have done that a long time ago.
MCCLURE: Exactly. He has the ability to defend himself, and he could have made this a lot simpler.
GREENFIELD: He's making the statement when he makes the statement. He didn't go into hiding. God, he's photographed every day.
BATTISTA: You guys, let me interject here, because we just got a statement from Congressman Condit, who says he was glad to meet with Chandra Levy's mother last night. He also says that he is talking to the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, try to schedule an interview. Anyway, the statement goes on to say, "I was very glad that I could finally meet with Mrs. Levy last evening. Dr. and Mrs. Levy and the Levy family are undergoing the most terrible and difficult circumstances that can face any family. My prayers, hope and sympathy are with them. I also want to thank Mr. Billy Martin, attorney for the Levys, for his expeditious handling of my meeting request.
"Mr. Abbe Lowell, who has been a friend of mine for three years, facilitated this meeting. Mr. Lowell is an expert in the ways of Washington, and I will continue to rely on him for advice on this matter. As I said yesterday, I've been in contact with the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department to let them know that I want to provide whatever information I could that could help locate Chandra. I called them today to schedule the interview. Hopefully, it will occur sooner rather than later." BYRNE: Oh, please.
MCCLURE: Good, that's great.
BATTISTA: That was released last night, I guess.
MCCLURE: Good, that's great. That' exactly what I was saying needed to happen.
GREENFIELD: Anything else?
BYRNE: He should be there now.
MCCLURE: He met with the parents. He alleviated concerns and you know...
GREENFIELD: Shame on him for not jumping to our whip. Yeah, drag him out. Sackcloth and ashes.
MCCLURE: Sam, we're not doing that, we're not doing that. All we are saying is...
GREENFIELD: He said he's going to meet with the police, and all I hear is, "He should have done it an hour ago." Take it easy.
BYRNE: You know what? If it was your child you would be wanting this to happen a long time ago.
MCCLURE: Exactly, exactly.
BYRNE: Every hour that passes is more time this woman's not going to be found in a good way.
MCCLURE: Exactly.
GREENFIELD: Do you honestly think that this man is withholding information that could lead to her whereabouts? Do you?
WARE: Yes. I think so.
BYRNE: Yes.
BATTISTA: Well, you know what? Here's an e-mail. Here's an e- mail that says -- Dan in Florida says, "The truth may never come out, but people who were close to her will be under suspicion the rest of their lives. Until the body is found, no one will ever know what happened to Chandra."
But he does make a point there. You know, if the woman is never found, even if there's never a crime associated with it, there will always be that veil of suspicion to anybody close to her.
GREENFIELD: Yes.
BYRNE: You know, you could...
WARE: I like the -- I like the prison theory, though. I had not thought about that. I think they should check...
GREENFIELD: Why, thank you.
WARE: ... check phone records and things like that. If she had contacts with anyone in the prison system, that may be a direction to take.
BYRNE: You know, but let's...
GREENFIELD: She was an intern at the Bureau of Prisons, so therefore, that would be an excellent place to start.
BYRNE: You know, look at it like this: say they had a very good friendship, and Chandra was telling him things that, you know, she was last seen at the gym -- maybe somebody was leering at her at the gym and she told Congressman Condit, or maybe somebody at the Federal Bureau of Prisons was bothering her. I'm not saying...
GREENFIELD: What leads you to believe -- excuse me -- what leads you to believe he hasn't already given that information to the D.C. police? Since you don't know, how do you know he hasn't?
BYRNE: But why doesn't he come out -- why doesn't he come out and say that? Why doesn't he say it?
GREENFIELD: He has no obligation to come out and say it. He has an obligation to inform the police of what he knows.
(CROSSTALK)
BYRNE: ... he does.
GREENFIELD: He met with the parents, he met with the cops, that's it. That's all he owes.
BATTISTA: Does he have an obligation, Sam, do you think, to his constituents, or no?
GREENFIELD: He has an obligation for the sake of whatever happened to this young woman to confer with the police and her parents and not his constituents. Unless his constituents are people who might have had something to do with her disappearance, no.
He's handling this in the right way. He's acting on advice of a hot-shot lawyer, you think they are leaving any stone unturned? No. He went to the police, they said he's not a suspect. He went to the parents, they haven't issued a statement contrary to that.
Beyond that, he has nothing to disclose. He has done all he has to do legally, and as far as I'm concerned, morally. He issued a statement of support for the parents, he issued a statement that he has talked to the police. The police issued a statement that he's clear. What else is there? To tell me? To tell somebody from California? Come on.
MCCLURE: OK, Sam, bottom line is: you have two parents who are grieving, and you can just imagine what they are going through.
GREENFIELD: And he met with them, and he met with them, didn't he?
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLURE: ... the last ounce of hope, you must understand, will be to have some words, some positive hope that their daughter might still be alive.
GREENFIELD: And he met with them.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLURE: ... looking at this situation, all I'm saying is that you have to understand that we as a public are empathetic and sympathetic to both sides. Yes, the politician -- I agree, he is in a situation that is unfortunate and may hurt his career a little bit, but we are forgiving in America, we tend to overlook political, you know, mistakes, as was proven last presidency. So, you know...
GREENFIELD: Is that why Teddy Kennedy can't run for president? Is that because we are so quick to forgive?
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLURE: ... get into that discussion?
GREENFIELD: Thirty-one years ago, I mean, you know.
BATTISTA: Let me go to Rich in the audience here -- Rick.
(CROSSTALK)
RICK: ... as a public official, Senator Condit (sic) had an obligation to make a public statement much earlier than he did. And by not doing it, he helped fuel the suspicions.
MCCLURE: Exactly. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. Oh, OK.
BATTISTA: All right, let me to CNN's Bob Franken in Washington who has been covering this story since the disappearance of Chandra Levy. And Bob, we know that congressman's attorney, Abbe Lowell, is going to be giving a statement of some sort in a few minutes here. Do you have any idea what he is going to be saying?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we do have is a statement that has been released, a written statement, in which -- it's really a statement from his client, Representative Gary Condit, saying: "I was very glad I could finally meet with Mrs. Levy last evening. Dr. and Mrs. Levy and the Levy family are undergoing the most terrible and difficult circumstances that can face any family." As it goes on, he points out that...
BATTISTA: I just read it on the show, so that's OK. FRANKEN: And that part about the police, right?
BATTISTA: Yes, that he is trying to meet with police. I mean, do we know whether or not he's actually set up a second interview?
FRANKEN: We know that it has not been set up yet. We are being told that it's entirely possible it will not happen today, but might happen over the weekend.
BATTISTA: Now, is this -- I'm curious, because I don't know, is this just like a scheduling problem, or is it not a priority for the congressman, or -- I don't understand why it's taking days?
FRANKEN: Well, the explanation is that he is busy doing his work as a congressman. And the other night, couple of nights ago, when the police called, he was on the House floor until about 10:00. The following day when he called, according to the Condit people, the police were tied up because there was a funeral of a slain officer. And he says that's just what's been going back and forth.
One can only also assume that the lawyers are involved here, and there are probably some ground rules that are being established.
BATTISTA: All right. I have to take a quick break here, since we've been pushing it quite a bit. We will continue in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: We're back. And we're extending this topic of our free-for-all Friday, because we are waiting a news conference from Congressman Gary Condit's attorney Abbe Lowell. That should happen momentarily.
CNN's Bob Franken's is with us. And Bob, earlier today, I guess the attorney for the Levys, Billy Martin, also made some sort of a statement?
FRANKEN: Yes, it's interesting here in Washington -- although this is really about a missing 24-year-old woman and her distressed parents -- everything here seems to be reduced to dueling lawyers and dueling attorneys, and both attorneys, Abbe Lowell and Billy Martin, confirmed that the meeting took place last night -- which, of course, we reported last night.
Now, Billy Martin has said that the congressman should do everything he can as quickly as possible to meet with the D.C. police. In addition, he said: "We would hope that the congressman would commit to meet with all others working on the case, including the FBI and our own investigators," meaning the investigators for the Levys. I would suspect that right now that's in a fat-chance category.
BATTISTA: Here's some activity going on at the live scene there, Bob. It looks like a statement has been handed -- a written statement of some sort has been handed out.
FRANKEN: Right. That's this statement, I am pretty sure. There's really an interesting dynamic going on here. Abbe Lowell, who is somebody who is very media-savvy, well-known Washington lawyer, had -- let it be known that he would come out and make a statement. That caused some consternation among the staff members for Congressman Condit. So now, what we are seeing is the paper statement being handed out. We do not know whether, in fact, we are going to see Abbe Lowell.
BATTISTA: How is all of this playing on the Hill, Bob?
FRANKEN: Well, I think that everybody right now is very perplexed. They don't know what to make of it. I can tell that Condit has spoken with any number of his colleagues, particularly Democrats. We are told that he consistently tells them that he did nothing, quote, "that I am ashamed of." That is the quote. He denies, in effect, that he in fact had that romantic relationship with Chandra Levy that so many people have said that he has had -- or so many people have suggested that he has had.
As far as the Republicans are concerned, they're saying nothing about this. There's probably nothing they could say -- they could say that would not be perceived as opportunistic.
BATTISTA: A couple of e-mails here. Susan in New Jersey says: "As a public official, he should be vehemently trying to protect his reputation. After all, selling the public is what politicians do best. While he may have no obligation to speak, as a politician, wouldn't his reputation be worthy of protection?"
FRANKEN: Well, this...
BATTISTA: Yeah, go ahead, Bob.
FRANKEN: His people would argue that, in fact, that this is a no-win situation going on television. I would point out, by the way, that early on, he made a statement, among other things he said that he and Chandra Levy were good friends. That was made not on television, but it was made as a prepared statement. And of course, the one that you just read a little bit earlier is his statement.
What he has not done, he has not gone on television, and he has gotten advice from any number of people who say that that is no-win, that no matter what happens, people will criticize what he has to say, and quite frankly, liken him to Bill Clinton.
BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Susan in Virginia. Susan, go ahead.
SUSAN: Yes. I think that the congressman may not know anymore than he has already told, and if anybody had really listened to the news yesterday, on the news in D.C. they said that they were going to try to consider this no longer as a missing persons case. So I think what they need to do is go back and talk to any of her friends or coworkers or anybody who saw her leave the gym that night, and try to find out more of where she is at, because somebody out there knows.
BATTISTA: I don't know what NBC is reporting, Bob, but what is the -- what is the current status of the Levy investigation with the police department?
FRANKEN: As a matter of fact, one of the things the Levys asked is that it would be upgraded, in effect, from a missing person investigation into a criminal investigation, and the Levys came to town, they met with police officials who were emphatic. They were not going to do that, because they said they had no clear indications that there was foul play involved, which is the bar that they have to go over before it would become a criminal investigation.
BATTISTA: All right, Bob, we have not seen a sign of Abbe Lowell as yet, he may not be coming out as you were saying, so will put this whole thing on stand-by for the moment, and we will get back to you should there be any further developments. OK? Thanks very much.
We'll take a break here. And up next, the killers of a two-year- old toddler are given new identities and are set free. Is this justice? We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: We're going to take to you Houston, Texas here, quickly, where a Yates family spokesman is talking about the death of those five children. So we'll listen in for a moment.
ELIZABETH QUIGLEY, YATES FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: That is basically all that the family wants told at this time, that the funeral has been planned and it will be Wednesday morning at 10:30, and about the memorial fund. We appreciate your support.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
QUIGLEY: That is not something I'm privy to. I do not know.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
QUIGLEY: Yes, there is. It is PO Box 590027, Houston, Texas.
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) They do not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) number. There's also a hotline that's been set up if people need information. That number is 281-286-0068.
QUESTION: Has Russell made any plans about this house?
QUIGLEY: Nothing has been decided as far as that, basically.
QUESTION: Could you repeat the phone number again, please?
QUIGLEY: 281-286-0068.
QUESTION: Yesterday Mr. Yates was talking freely. He came out several times to talk. Today he appears not to really want to talk anymore. Any idea why the change of mood?
QUIGLEY: No, I do not know. I do not know. He has not expressed that to me.
QUESTION: How is Mr. Yates holding up behind closed doors?
QUESTION: Do they belong to an area church?
QUIGLEY: I cannot give the information out.
QUESTION: Will the children be buried here in Houston, in Clear Lake?
QUIGLEY: Yes, they will be buried here in Clear Lake.
QUESTION: At Clear Lake together?
QUIGLEY: Together.
QUESTION: The location of the burials...
QUIGLEY: Information we do not have at this point.
QUESTION: Do you know when you'll have it?
QUIGLEY: No.
QUESTION: Can you tell us how Mr. Yates is doing today?
QUIGLEY: Mr. Yates is doing fine.
QUESTION: He seemed like he's in shock. Does it seem like it's starting to hit home?
QUIGLEY: Yes, I think so. But I think he's doing very fine. He's -- under the circumstances, I think he's doing very well.
QUESTION: Who is -- who is surrounding him? His mother, brother are here?
QUIGLEY: His family and his friends.
QUESTION: OK.
QUIGLEY: And that's basically it. We appreciate your time.
BATTISTA: All right. That was a Yates family spokesman down in Houston, Texas, bringing us up to the date on the status of the children's funeral, and the fact that they'll all be buried, all of them together, in Houston.
There is so much going on this hour that we're going to fast- forward here to our next topic. We're going to skip the English toddler story, and roll right into the fact that actor Carroll O'Connor died of a heart attack yesterday. We did want to talk about that a bit today. At age 76, he had a long and distinguished career, as you know, on stage, screen, and TV. But it was the role of Archie Bunker's on television's "All in the Family" that embedded him in the nation's consciousness.
There was just something about that blue-collar bigot, raging against social and political change, that just spoke to everybody who ever watched that show. Wouldn't you agree, Sam?
GREENFIELD: I think that the best thing about Carroll O'Connor is that he sets an example for America's youth who don't know what they want to do with their lives. This guy's early life was very aimless. He couldn't get through college, he had an attitude problem in high school. He was in the merchant marines because he couldn't get into West Point because of his attitude. He went over to Dublin to pal around with his brother while he went to the school over there. He got into Abbe Theater. Next thing you know, he's one of the great character actors in the history of TV.
So for those of you who have no idea what you're doing, this is your guy. Because he finally found that what which he loved and he pursued it with gusto. One of the truly most identifiable television characters of all time, maybe with Lucy and Cliff Huxtable and Mary Tyler Moore.
But this guy played it straight, because he was a great dramatic actor, and that's what brought the great laughs.
BATTISTA: Did most people see it that way, Lincoln? I remember Dr. Alvin Poussaint, up at Harvard, thinking that a show like "All in the Family" was extremely dangerous in many ways, to minorities.
WARE: Well, I don't think it was dangerous. It sort of shed the light on what was going on, actually, in America. And it's still going on. Archie Bunker -- while Carroll O'Connor may be dead, but Archie Bunker lives on. He's no longer in front of the TV set on his couch. He's in corporate America, wearing a tie. So Archie Bunker lives, even though Caroll O'Connor is gone. But he changed the way we watched television. He changed the face of television.
GREENFIELD: He brought up a lot of issues that have never been brought up before. Drug addiction, racism, child abuse, rape -- never been on TV before, and did it in brilliant fashion.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Yes, why don't we one like that today?
BYRNE: No way could we have a TV show like that today.
MCCLURE: We're too politically correct.
GREENFIELD: Of course we do! We have shows that go beyond that.
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: No, no, no.
GREENFIELD: Look, the "Queer as Folk," "Sex and the City." What, what do you think that...
WARE: No.
BATTISTA: It's HBO. BYRNE: Network executives...
(CROSSTALK)
BYRNE: Archie Bunker, love him or hate him -- Archie Bunker, love him or hate him...
WARE: You see what they did to Dr. Laura.
BATTISTA: You guys, let me ask you this. We have a talk -- actually, we had a talk upstairs...
BYRNE: Right, and it's off the air now.
BATTISTA: Before the show, we had a talk upstairs, that in some ways -- I mean, I grant you, this is HBO, but Tony Soprano is a little bit like Archie Bunker in many respects.
GREENFIELD: Absolutely.
BATTISTA: You sort of love him and hate him, but...
BYRNE: There are people trying to take Tony Soprano off the air.
GREENFIELD: And he provides the same...
WARE: Dr. Laura was the female Archie Bunker.
GREENFIELD: Don't even say her in the same breath. He provides a great moral lesson.
WARE: But she was the female Archie Bunker. She's not even on TV now.
BATTISTA: Wait, wait, wait. She really believes what she says, though. Archie Bunker didn't.
(CROSSTALK)
BYRNE: Network executives don't want to take a risk like that anymore.
GREENFIELD: Tony Soprano provides the same great moral dilemma for people that Archie Bunker does. He's a bigot. He doesn't like certain groups, but he's miserable and people think he's a joke. And in the same way, it's true, on an exponential level with Tony Soprano...
BYRNE: We are so politically correct now, that a show like that will never be on...
WARE: We're too politically correct. You're right.
BYRNE: And the problem is, you guys, I mean, I'm a movie critic and I watch TV and movies a lot. I'm telling you, we have forgotten how to laugh at ourselves. We've forgotten how to be able to look at what's going on, and even though some of it's not a good side of how we are, and a good reflection of who we are, we've forgotten how to laugh at ourselves and go, you know what, there are some people that are like that. There are some people that actually do say those things.
GREENFIELD: You know, sometimes a guy does a joke about a woman who's 1180 pounds overweight, and there's a woman standing there who's 180 pounds overweight, and her feelings are hurt. And he goes, Oh, come on!
That's not laughing at ourselves. That's a very different thing.
BYRNE: People laughed at Archie Bunker. People laughed at him. Not with him, they laughed at him.
GREENFIELD: Listen to me. People laugh at what's funny.
BATTISTA: Let me get some audience.
GREENFIELD: If it's funny, they laugh. If it's not, it sucks.
BATTISTA: Let me get some audience reaction to this. Veronica from New York, go ahead.
VERONICA: Yes, hi. I thought it was a great show, and he did a great job, because you really believed that he was Archie Bunker. You know, Carroll O'Connor was great at it.
GREENFIELD: Big liberal.
VERONICA: But the thing about the show was that you laugh, I agree, at him. Not so much with him, because it showed that prejudice comes from ignorance. And once he learned about other cultures, he even became a little bit more tender. And a lot of people that you know could relate to that.
BATTISTA: Yes. Let me take Wayne on the phone in Texas. Wayne, go ahead.
CALLER: Yes, I just remember when I was a young boy, I used to go over to my grandfather's house and watch Archie Bunker every Saturday evening. And he was just one of my grandfather's favorite actors, and they're now both together. So it's like I lost a friend.
BATTISTA: Oh.
MCCLURE: It was a part of TV we will never recapture again, because he opened our eyes to things that had never been discussed on television before, never been dealt with, and there was all viewpoints on that show. It wasn't just one viewpoint, it wasn't just Archie's.
GREENFIELD: Not at all.
MCCLURE: He had to admit that he was wrong, and he had to realize his perspective was closed-minded, and in some situations, he knew it was. And he was his own worst enemy, and he knew that. (CROSSTALK)
WARE: The thing that scares me, there's too many people Archie Bunkers out there. There are too many people like Archie Bunker in America.
MCCLURE: But we recognize that.
WARE: That's what scares me.
MCCLURE: But it shouldn't scare you. We recognize that. We go, you know what, we feel sorry for those people.
BYRNE: And we make fun of him.
MCCLURE: The show enabled us to all the sides of ourselves that we hate, and that's the side that hates. And that's what that show proved.
BATTISTA: Back to the...
MCCLURE: It was revolutionary and it will never be replaced. I wish we had more shows like that, intelligent TV, on networks today.
BYRNE: Network executives are too scared. They're too scared.
BATTISTA: Yes, they are too scared today. It's all about sex today.
GREENFIELD: The good shows go to HBO and Showtime.
BATTISTA: That's right.
WARE: If somebody put on a show like that today...
BATTISTA: Can we promote HBO any more than we are?
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: ... every religious group, and have Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and everybody else out there...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Let me go to Jason in the audience here quickly. Jason, go ahead.
BYRNE: That's too bad.
JASON: Yes, I just wanted to chime in. I heard one of you guys mentioned about your grandfather, one of you guys mentioned about that, and my grandfather actually passed away last week, 72 years old, and will I feel like Archie Bunker was also a relative, because he was in my home watching the TV, I was watching him on TV each and every single week he was on. And I am a young guy, but growing up through the years my family had always watched Archie, and I was in tears when I heard about Archie Bunker passing away, because...
GREENFIELD: Indelible American...
(CROSSTALK)
JASON: ... like mentioned about your grandfather, it just hit me right now.
BATTISTA: Mike, on the phone from Missouri, go ahead.
MIKE: Yeah, I would just like to say that I remember watching Archie Bunker as a kid, and you know, and he reminds me of my grandpa. He addressed the issues and things like that and he just did things that no other person was doing on TV at the time, you know.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: ... the character of Archie Bunker came from the creator, Norman Lear's father, who made that quote to him that he made to Meathead, "you are the laziest white man I've ever seen in my life." The character was actually Norman Lear's father, so it was kind of cathartic to put him on the air.
MCCLURE: And so, let's do what we're saying -- we're saying that -- we hear people saying that their grandfather used to watch that show, their father used to watch that show. Archie Bunker represented a mind set that was -- is in the past, it was what older America used to think and believe and maybe where they came from, a time gone by.
And that's where we have progressed, and we should be able to have shows like that, when we can look back at that mentality and that perspective and allow for the fact that people say things -- like in the news was, you know, other -- that we were going to discuss on the show today, but -- in Toronto. People say things all the time that they wish they wouldn't say, or hasn't said, or shouldn't say -- and that's just the way it is.
I mean, not everyone is going to believe the same, but as long as we have a society and a culture that recognizes, you know, there's bias, there's whatever, and we can laugh at ourselves, it makes it better.
BATTISTA: I got to jump in here. A couple of quick e-mails. Tori in Tennessee says: "Archie Bunker taught me that even the most hard-hearted man has heart. They only choose when to use it."
And Albert in California says: "Mr. O'Connor was a fine actor who brought joy to me in whatever he starred in. I shall miss him."
And we'll take a break here. When we come back, we'll see how you voted on our online viewer vote, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BATTISTA: We will check the online viewer vote here. We asked if prosecutors should seek the death penalty for Andrea Yates, and 39 percent of you said yes, 61 percent of you said no.
We are out of time. It's been kind of a wacky hour. You guys, thanks for hanging in with us.
GREENFIELD: Thank you very much.
MCCLURE: Thank you, Bobbie.
WARE: Thanks for having me.
BYRNE: Thank you.
BATTISTA: Holly, Lincoln, Sam, good to see you. And Eileen, great to have you come back.
And we will see you again on Monday at 3:00. Join us then.
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