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CNN Talkback Live
Free-for-All Friday
Aired July 06, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VINCENT FLAMMINI, FORMER CONDIT DRIVER: Gary wouldn't kill her, not in a million years. But he would drive her to the brink of making her think he loved her so much that she couldn't handle it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We kept asking for water but they wouldn't give us it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like a nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you deprive them of water when they wanted it? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It took myself and three passengers to pull me out of his chokehold, and then subdue him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: The intern and the Congressman, death in boot camp, and raging against air rage. It's just the start of "Free For All Friday."
Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE and "Free For All Friday." We'll start today with the latest in the case of missing Washington intern, Chandra Levy. Although Congressman Gary Condit is not considered a suspect, there is interest in his relationship with Miss. Levy. Police have questioned the Congressman's wife, Carolyn. And while his lawyer scolded the press for focusing on his private life, Condit says he talked to police three times, twice in person.
Chandra's aunt, meanwhile, Linda Zamsky, tells "The Washington Post" her niece not only was involved with Condit, but that he gave her gifts. And she says, Chandra left this message on her phone the day before she disappeared: "Hi Linda, this is Chandra. My internship is over. I'm planning on packing my bags in the next week or ten days, heading home for a while, don't know what I am going to do for the summer. And I really have some big news or something important to tell. Call me."
Our guests today: In Los Angeles, KABC Radio talk show host, Doug McIntyre. In Washington, Victoria Jones, a radio talk show host on WMAL. Kevin Miller, a radio talk show host on WERC in Birmingham, Alabama; and Ian Punnett, a talk show host heard frequently on WGST here in Atlanta, and KSTP in the twin cities, and weekly across America on "Coast to Coast A.M." Ian is also, by the way, a seminarian.
Welcome to all of you.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Victoria, thanks for getting there on time. It was our fault the car was late.
VICTORIA JONES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: It was very exciting.
PUNNETT: She got a car?
MCINTYRE: Wait a second, yeah, she got a car. I got a bus pass.
JONES: Yeah, yeah.
BATTISTA: Just kidding. Just kidding. All right. Kevin, do you think the congressman is being -- I mean, this story keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. Do you think he's being forthcoming enough at this point?
KEVIN MILLER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think the problem with the congressman is when are powerful men ever going to learn to stay away from young women. I mean, you have Anne Marie Smith, you have Bill Clinton, you have Newt Gingrich. When is the congressmen, who's a public servant, tell his constituents what happened.
Instead of worrying about what their views are, the congressman is more concerned about having alleged affairs. Now the work of the district is not getting done. The congressman needs to come forth, and the media should continue to pressure him. And he should resign because he's a creep.
BATTISTA: Ian, do you think at the least, at the very least, as an ethicist, shall we say, that he has an obligation to his constituents?
IAN PUNNETT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I'll only correct Kevin in saying at this point "alleged creep," but let's just say that we'll take it out of the realm of this specific case, and I will endorse wholeheartedly this notion that says that people are going to be able to protect their legal right at the expense of their moral right.
And his legal right, of course, is not to say anything. And every poll in America would agree, that every lawyer would give him that advice, "don't say a thing." But he has a moral obligation to participate fully.
I mean, there are things about this case I think that are making people feel just a little bit reminiscent of the Ramsey case, where you feel like, look, if you don't have anything involved in this, you've got to be the first one to show up at the door. You've got to say, look, this is what I know about the girl, we weren't having an affair, but gosh, we were friends, and here's the letters and here's everything.
BATTISTA: Now, he says he's done that with the police.
MILLER: Right.
BATTISTA: You're saying he also owes it...
PUNNETT: Well, he says that he's done that with the police, but again, remember there was a certain amount of stonewalling that came at the beginning. And there has been nuanced language that has changed as original, absolute, 100-percent denials have changed a little bit. And so now there's a little window that kind of comes in that says, well, maybe there's a little light on that that might come out later on.
Even notwithstanding the fact that this guy is -- should be 100 percent assumed innocent until proven guilty, there still is an obligation for him both as part of the legal process in this country, as a lawmaker, and as part of the political machine to make sure that he's not putting his career or his personal reputation above the need to find out what happened to this girl, both not just for a family's sake but for a whole society.
VICTORIA JONES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, obviously he is, and he has been doing for the last nine weeks, otherwise he would have spoken to the D.C. police a lot earlier than he did. And he did have information which was important to be shared with them, which was that he ended their, quote, "friendship" a couple of days before she disappeared.
That, it seems to me, is highly significant, and something that the D.C. police probably would have liked to know on like May the 2nd, May the 3rd, something like that. That was very important information.
I could care less how many affairs he's having as long as the affairs do not impact Chandra's disappearance. That is -- that's a business for his constituents. They've re-elected him zillions of times. They know the guy. They know the family. They can make those decisions.
We are so pleased to be judgmental of other people's private sex lives, and I find that so fascinating. But if it is not relevant, it's not relevant. In this case, it's relevant because it goes to her state of mind, and with Anne Marie Smith, it may go to whether he tried to get her to make her lie.
BATTISTA: Let me get Doug in here quickly. DOUG MCINTYRE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: This reminds -- this reminds me a little bit of almost "A Bonfire of the Vanities" situation, where an incident happens and then a man's life gets exposed.
But Gary Condit, if I were a member of Gary Condit's district, a constituent of his, I would be absolutely outraged that this man has been talking to us through lawyers and through press representatives and press releases. He should have flown home immediately and spoken to his constituents publicly and explained his actions.
JONES: He certainly should. And you know, one of the things that really ticked me off -- I think he -- by the way, he easily could have done the July 4th parades and caught a later flight. There are quite a few flights to D.C. you know. That was nonsense. That was just an excuse.
MILLER: See, I think we're missing the point here when we're talking about a public servant. Victoria, you say that it doesn't matter that he cheats on his wife, that it doesn't matter...
JONES: Right.
MILLER: ... about his sexual escapades, alleged as they may be.
JONES: Right.
MILLER: But here's a man that is given the trust of the people to go and do their bidding. If you cannot trust a man -- I said this about Clinton, I'll say about Gingrich, I'll say it about Condit -- if you cannot trust a man to keep his vows of marriage, how can you trust him to do your bidding when he is your congressman? You can't.
JONES: Then you might as well give up on the entire history and on pretty much all the founding fathers and on just about every president or...
MILLER: I disagree with that.
MCINTYRE: I disagree with that. I disagree.
This argument...
MILLER: No way this country...
MCINTYRE: This argument is made all the time.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: ... able to do their job.
MILLER: Not appropriate.
JONES: If he cannot do his job and control his affairs, then he should be out. But most of the founding fathers had affairs outside...
MILLER: Well, what job is being done? He's hiding.
JONES: ... of marriage.
MCINTYRE: That is not true. I'm sorry, Victoria, that is simply historically inaccurate.
JONES: No, look...
MILLER: Get 'em, Doug.
JONES: It's not historically inaccurate.
MILLER: Yes, it is. You are acting as if Washington is a whorehouse with monuments and it's not.
JONES: No, it's not a whorehouse with monuments at all.
(APPLAUSE)
MILLER: It's about honor, integrity. It's not about having sex with young women or flight attendants.
JONES: It's not a whorehouse with monuments, but let's not pretend...
BATTISTA: I'm not sure which way the audience is clapping, are you?
JONES: We're not electing monks here. We're electing people to make laws.
MILLER: You're electing people to do their jobs and not...
JONES: That's right, and their job...
MILLER: ... have affairs...
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: ... their job.
MCINTYRE: Victoria, it is the highest honor...
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: If they have affairs on their own time, then that's their business.
MCINTYRE: It is the highest honor that can be given to an American citizen is to be a spokesperson of the people.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's right. MCINTYRE: And these people act like masters of the universe, that they are above the law...
JONES: And you're trying to tell me...
MCINTYRE: ... above the fray, and it is arrogant.
BATTISTA: I want to clear something up.
JONES: Are you trying to tell me that people don't have affairs also? That people don't have problems in their marriages?
MILLER: Why don't we ask the audience? Why don't we ask the audience right now? How many of you have had affairs?
JONES: OK, let's ask the audience. And do you think people are going to stand up and tell you that?
MILLER: This is the voice of America, Victoria.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's the whole point.
MILLER: Not the Beltway.
JONES: That's the whole point of an affair -- it's private.
BATTISTA: Let me jump in here -- let me jump in here real quickly, because, Victoria, you said something a few moments ago that you -- let me clarify that -- that you said that the congressman had told the police that he ended his relationship with Chandra Levy a couple of days before she disappeared.
JONES: According to police sources, that's correct. That's very important.
BATTISTA: OK, that's interesting, because in -- in -- yeah, it is, because in "The Washington Post," when you -- in the interview with her aunt, which is fairly extensive -- let me read you some quotes from that article, because she talks a lot about their relationship and the fact that it actually was heating up in the month of April quite a bit.
Here's a quote from it. The aunt says: "I asked, 'How do you get in touch with him if it's so secretive, this relationship?' And she said, 'Well ...' -- and this is when she came and accidentally said his name to me -- she would dial a number. It would play music and she would leave a message. She said, 'I could also call the office and they would answer "Gary Condit,"' and that's how -- that's how his name came out."
And she goes on to say, "'Oops, you didn't hear that.' And I said, 'No,' and of course I did, but I made real light of it. I kind of dummied up because I wanted her to feel comfortable with me." PUNNETT: You know, I have to say, I think Victoria moved this into the old territory of where we were talking about Clinton. But I don't think anybody said anything like that...
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: No, I didn't.
PUNNETT: I think what we were talking about was...
JONES: I didn't move it into that area. I'd like to talk about where Chandra is...
PUNNETT: ... what we are talking about is when...
JONES: ... and whether this man has anything to do with it. That's what the story is.
PUNNETT: ... a congressman's image...
(CROSSTALK)
PUNNETT: If nobody has talked -- not one person said anything about being fit to serve. I would say the argument right this point is, is he just protecting his image...
JONES: Of course he is.
PUNNETT: Well, then, that's different, because then if your...
JONES: And that's wrong.
PUNNETT: ... sexual private life causes you to compromise morality and to stonewall the legal authorities, then you are.
JONES: I agree.
PUNNETT: Then you would have to -- then you have to agree with the rest of us on that.
BATTISTA: She agrees with you.
JONES: I totally agree.
BATTISTA: All right. Meanwhile, I'm trying to solve -- meanwhile, I'm trying to solve a mystery.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: I'm trying to look at clues here and solve a mystery, meanwhile, because her -- her aunt's remarks about the relationship heating up in April, and then, you know, she left this message about big news and stuff, she was not upset on that message. That doesn't coincide with him having broken up with her a couple of days before.
PUNNETT: Oh, the whole thing is so... BATTISTA: Assuming there was something going on and we don't know.
PUNNETT: You're heating up friendship and you're breaking up a friendship.
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTYRE: ... Bobbie, is that there's 141 people who are also missing out of Washington, D.C. alone, and there are thousands, literally thousands of missing people all across America, and the only publicity they can get, those grieving parents can get for their kids is a flyer stapled to a telephone pole. And the only reason we're talking about this case ad nauseam is because it's got the word "intern" and "Congress," so it's rogue company Monica Lewinsky.
JONES: That's absolutely right. It is why we're talking about that.
MILLER: And Doug has a great point about that. When will these powerful men ever learn? Because right now the public -- he is guilty until proven innocent. There is no presumption of innocence. I would hope that there would be, but there isn't.
JONES: They won't learn.
MILLER: We talk about his effectiveness to govern. How can he govern when he's being hounded by the press? When he refuses to answer questions?
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: He can release statements through his lawyer, but the bottom line is, he does not govern -- he is not representing his constituents, Victoria. Let me finish. Thank you.
BATTISTA: I have to break.
JONES: I'm not disagreeing with you.
BATTISTA: I have to break here.
MILLER: That's the bottom line.
(BELL RINGING)
BATTISTA: There's the bell, we've resurrected it. We will continue with this topic in the next segment. We'll also talk a little bit about the role of the media in this whole story. As we go to break, the question of the day is -- what is it, again?
(LAUGHTER)
BATTISTA: We have to roll that back a little bit, here. Roll it back. Question of the day is: What do you think of the media's coverage of the Chandra Levy story? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL keyword CNN. And while there, check out my column, send us an e-mail or an instant message. Our buddy name is TALKBACK LIVE. If you're not on AOL's instant messenger, follow the link on our Web site, then watch your comments go on the air. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Welcome back. Some e-mails that have come in. Dave in Bloomington, Illinois says: "Politicians should step up say, yes, I had the affair. I might have another one if I choose, and it's not your business. Instead they say, Nno, no, not me,' then the press proves they had it. How many times does this example have to be shown to these politicians?"
Chris in Seminole, Texas says; "Here's an idea. Let's leave him alone and focus on the girl."
Let's go to the audience here quickly to get some thoughts from them. All the way up to the top row.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to say that I have some conflict in saying that, yes, he doesn't really need to say anything. But in the same breath, when I contact a local representative or someone who is representing me, I expect an answer or some sort of a response within 30 days. Isn't that what I believe the limit is? So I believe he owes his constituents some sort of -- not so much an explanation, but he owes them some details or some facts. And in some ways, I'd almost him rather say nothing than to come out and say, well, I don't know her. We don't have a relationship. I'd rather have more facts all at once, and hopefully soon.
BATTISTA: You know, when we were talking with the audience earlier about this, they were a little bit shy to talk about this story until we mentioned the media. And then about 20 hands shot up, so let me ask you guys on the panel whether you think the media coverage of this has been fair?
JONES: I think in the last few days, the media -- certainly the 24-hour news networks have really run with it. Until that time, I think it had been quite reasonable and people had been giving updates. We have talked about it occasionally on my show, not every day, it's not that big a story, until right now.
But I think one of the reasons we're talking about the media is because Abbe Lowell, Condit's extremely savvy lawyer, put out a statement yesterday coming from Condit, which chastises the media in six places on page two and basically tries to turn the focus away from Condit's behavior towards the media's behavior, which is very clever. But fact of the matter -- it's not the media who's stonewalling, it's Gary Condit.
So I think, yes, there may have been some overplaying by the media, but basically we're doing what we do. And I do want to make it very clear that if Gary Condit's private life is impacting his work, that is our concern. But everybody is entitled to a private life. At this point his life is not private. MCINTYRE: Well, politicians lives are private until something happens, and that's the situation we have here. The media's role on this -- I agree with Victoria in the sense that initially we had a missing woman, and let's put her picture up, and if anybody knows where she is, please help the grieving family find this missing girl.
And now it seems to be degenerating into just wild speculation. I had a caller on my show last night, "Red Eye Radio," Talk Radio 7, 90 KABC Monday through Friday, 9:00 to midnight, and...
(LAUGHTER)
MILLER: That will cost you $1,000.
BATTISTA: That's right. Check's in the mail.
MCINTYRE: She was angry at me because I would not come forward and say that Gary Condit is a murderer. And I said, look, you know, we are in Los Angeles, let the D.C. police do their job. The problem is that we expect everything -- we've watched too many half-hour, one- hour cop shows on television, and we want the crime to happen, the perpetrator to be caught and convicted in a half-an-hour, otherwise we don't have the patience for it.
JONES: That's right. Exactly. That's exactly right.
PUNNETT: There's more to this story, though, than that. And that -- and whereas I agree with you that we shouldn't -- we should never forget the basic tenets of guilt and innocence in this.
This is also a story about power, and there's a lot of people out there feeling very disenfranchised from the system that are saying, "I never would have gotten that kind of pass from the police, they never would have taken this hands-off attitude, oh, you call us back when it is convenient, or we will go through your attorney and we'll come and meet you."
There are a lot of people that they would just -- even the whiff that they were involved in that, would have expected the police at the door, and they would have had a much harder time holding off an investigation. They would have been the subject of a much more thorough look from the law enforcement officials on the scene anywhere in Washington, D.C. That's also part of this story.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: And Ian brings up a very good point when he talks about power. Now, the parents, the relatives have the power to put pressure on this congressman. If the media -- if we didn't have so many 24- hours cables, if it wasn't so slow in the summer, if we didn't have so much time to fill, if you will, we wouldn't have this, we wouldn't have the attention.
Now the parents are focusing in on the congressman to come forward, you are a public servant, you don't have a private life, tell us what you know, Congressman Condit, tell us what you know. PUNNETT: You can't blame the parents.
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, nobody ever seems to learn that cover- up is almost always worse than the crime that they're covering.
JONES: Always.
MCINTYRE: Nobody learns this lesson, going back from Watergate and beyond that. You know, Alexander Hamilton, going back to founding fathers, had an affair in the 1780s or 1790s, and it was exposed in the press, and he admitted it. You know, shocking, you know, a very conservative world along those lines, and he survived that political crisis, but these guys never learn this lesson...
BATTISTA: I know.
MCINTYRE: ... and as a result, then people start to play the speculation game, and we run the risk of Richard Jewelling people, and it's the same story over and over and over again. It is a danger, and those who have microphones or have cameras I think have an extra responsibility to put the brakes on the wild speculation, because we are going to take a lot of good people down on reckless speculation.
BATTISTA: Let me get a phone call from...
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: ... you know, what is going on with the politicians in Washington, it always has. Nobody ever thinks that they are going to get caught, that everybody is above the law, it's very interesting. But I'm fascinated by this tape of Chandra in the 7-11, I hope we are going to get a chance to talk about that.
BATTISTA: That -- I don't think that panned out, that was not the woman.
JONES: Are we sure?
BATTISTA: Well, that was the last I heard, was that it proved to be not Chandra Levy on the tape.
JONES: Good, because it didn't make sense. It's not a place where she would have gone to, a 7-11...
BATTISTA: Right, it was like five miles away or something.
JONES: That's right, very weird.
BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Elaine in Manitoba. Elaine, go ahead.
ELAINE: Hi. What I would like to say is this: I find you people just so unbelievably preoccupied with the sex lives of your politicians. Here we don't care. We just elect a really good person, and what they do in their private life really doesn't matter.
MILLER: Tell that to Pierre Trudeau.
ELAINE: And I would like to say...
MILLER: Tell that to the late Pierre Trudeau! You people were fascinated by Pierre Trudeau's sex life!
ELAINE: Oh, Pierre Trudeau dated Barbra Streisand -- please, just give me a break here...
(CROSSTALK)
ELAINE: You wouldn't have a Roosevelt if you had gone into people's private lives...
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: Don't trust any of our politicians.
PUNNETT: Is anybody else tired of Canadians being America's hall monitors?
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: Canada, that's a great country.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: I got to take a quick break, I'm sorry. And that's it for this topic. You can take some of our own advice on this and move on, all right?
Air-rageous behavior. Could a violent passenger put your flight at risk, and what can be done? Are bouncers or armed guards the answer, or should they just cut off the drinks? We will be back.
Archbishop John P. Foley ruled out online forgiveness last month, saying that while the Internet can be a marvelous instrument for spreading the Gospel, it will never be an instrument of absolution. The Roman Catholic Church requires a physical presence for confession and forgiveness, he says.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think there should be guards on airplane?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they wouldn't drive up the price of the tickets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I think there should be guards on an airplane, I think it would cause more of a danger than safety.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, there should be civilian guards.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think you just would feel more safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you think would like scare people so they would not act up on airplanes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. T.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BATTISTA: Welcome back. Have you ever watched someone become belligerent, abusive and violent on a plane? Flight attendants in a press conference today say there are about 4,000 such incidents every year. However, they claim few violent passengers are held accountable, many of those incidents aren't even recorded, let alone prosecuted, and the flight attendants union wants the airlines as well as the Justice Department and the FAA to get tough. Among the recommendations: leave drunken passengers at the gate.
I don't think anybody disagrees with that, do you? I mean, they generally end up being a problem. I mean, I don't know, you know, whether you get into some civil rights problems if you eliminate alcohol from a plane, I don't know, but at the same time -- I mean, in other words, you know, if you want to have your glass of wine and you don't have a problem drinking, I don't know that you can tell the whole plane they can't do it just because there are some people who have problems with alcohol.
MCINTYRE: You know, Bobbie, that we want to leave the drunken pilots behind.
BATTISTA: Right, and the drunken passengers. But that -- all of that sounds a bit like a band-aid to me, and I'm not sure we are getting to the core of the problem.
MCINTYRE: No, the core of the problem is that we become much less civil as a society and we are incredibly impatient. We are yelling "hurry up" in front of microwave ovens in America, and we -- we've watched too much "Star Trek," we think we should be able to go from L.A. to New York through the transporter room, and if it takes six hours instead of five hours, people go ballistic -- when it used to take three months in a wagon -- instead of enjoying the miracle of what flight is, we get ballistic. Just call the car service and tell them to pick you up at 7:00.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I -- I would love to...
PUNNETT: That's not the whole story. That's not...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: My experience isn't quite that...
JONES: ... go (UNINTELLIGIBLE) flight is, if the planes took off, you see.
MILLER: Tough to get a word in edgewise around here.
JONES: I mean, I've been stock on the ground (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for six hours, you know.
PUNNETT: Right. I think that...
JONES: And you don't get to experience the miracle of flight if you're stuck on the ground for six hours, and they won't let you off the plane. This is...
MILLER: That's a great point. The airlines need to look into the mirror...
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: ... they need to take a look into the mirror, and quit being rude, quit overbooking...
JONES: Yes, they do.
MILLER: ... and quite just treating us like we're nothing more than cattle. That's the problem.
JONES: And they need to tell us the trough.
MCINTYRE: But there's two sides to the story. The airline service...
(APPLAUSE)
JONES: They need to tell us the truth.
MCINTYRE: Yes, that's fine, but on the other hand...
JONES: If there's -- if there's a reason for a delay, they need to tell us the truth.
PUNNETT: It's all about the bottom line.
JONES: And if they don't know, they need to tell us the truth.
MCINTYRE: But on the other hand...
JONES: And the bottom line is that they're making money and we don't matter.
MCINTYRE: Ian, you want to jump in?
BATTISTA: Let me get Ian in here.
PUNNETT: Well, I just think this is very important to point out. The airline industry has to take responsibility for this, too: When they start cutting down on the number of flights that are going to come out of a city or they're going to -- and this has happened, and this is a dirty little secret of a lot of airlines -- when they will cancel planes because there are only a certain number of people booked on the plane, and they're going to start doing pussy-footing around with their own regulations in order to up their profits, then they're going to have to realize that on the back end of this are going to be very irate people who would love to marvel at the world of flight but can't get out of the world of the terminal.
MCINTYRE: All of that is true. All of that is true. And those are excellent points. However...
BATTISTA: Let me take -- let me take Evelyn on the phone.
MCINTYRE: However, when are you on an aircraft in flight and you are causing a physical disturbance on the flight, that is your rage out of control, and you have to be personally responsible for that.
BATTISTA: I think most people agree with that.
PUNNETT: Nobody's disagreeing with that.
BATTISTA: But I'm not sure that all these incidents...
JONES: Absolutely.
BATTISTA: ... come from alcohol. They oftentimes come out of sheer anger and frustration, I think, at the whole travel process.
PUNNETT: Without a doubt.
BATTISTA: Let me take Evelyn on the phone from Pennsylvania, and then I have a flight crew in the audience from South Africa Airlines.
Evelyn, go ahead.
EVELYN: My name is Evelyn and I'm from Pennsylvania. I'm a smoker and I don't -- I don't any longer have the right to smoke on an airplane or 90 percent of the other public places. Now why can't they do the same for liquor? Why can't they stop the drinkers from drinking the same as they stopped the smokers from smoking? Are they afraid to hurt their feelings?
JONES: No, they're afraid to lose money, because if you're in coach and you're paying for your drinks, they're making a lot of money out of you.
BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here, because we just happen to have a crew from an airline in the audience, and they were telling us that you guys have had some similar problems.
Ratesh (ph).
RATESH: Yes, we have a lot of problems: passengers getting over- violent, fighting with each other because of little problems like probably one passenger is over-noisy and the other one gets irritated. The passengers also have problems with the crew, mainly because they don't want to follow regulations. And the crew have a responsibility, because our responsibility is mainly and firstly the security of passengers on that aircraft and the safety of the passengers. And we have to -- we have a guideline to follow, and those guidelines are important.
BATTISTA: Well, what do you -- let me ask the panel, too: What do you think the solutions are to this? Do we put armed guards or something, or bouncers or something?
MILLER: No, I don't think you need bouncers, but I think you need some kind of professional ethics review, maybe even some time of regulation.
Anybody seen "Meet the Parents"? Is that not the poster movie for just how inconsiderate and rude some of these flight personnel are? Now, some are very good, and the good ones are diamonds in the rough. But they're provocative, they have you, you're captive, and you're going to be held prisoner until they're done with you. And they don't apologize for being late.
MCINTYRE: Well, the bottom line to me is that yes, the airlines need to improve service. For instance, there's as many prices as they're on seats on the plane. No two people are even paying the same amount for the tickets to go to the same destination. The checking-in process is a hassle. We know all of that, and all of that should be fixed.
But when are you committing a criminal and dangerous act aboard an aircraft, that is your behavior out of control.
PUNNETT: Everybody agrees. I like the thought of this.
JONES: And people really should be prosecuted for that.
BATTISTA: I've got to go to break you guys.
PUNNETT: I like the thought of this. Mr. T -- Mr. T with a parachute. That's a bouncer that would get your attention, wouldn't it?
MCINTYRE: And by the way, I'm just kissing up to the airlines so I can get a free upgrade.
BATTISTA: All right. We've got to move on.
When we come back, we will move on to boot camp for juveniles. Did one boy die for discipline? That's next on "Free-for-All Friday." Stay with us.
According to the FAA, 256 physical altercations occurred between travelers and airline employees last year. That is down from 310 in 1999. And last year, Congress raised the maximum civil penalty in such cases from $1,100 to 25,000.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: A case of tough love turned deadly. Services were held today in Phoenix, Arizona for a 14-year-old boy who died at a desert boot camp for troubled youth. Anthony Haynes' death is being investigated, but other teens at the Buffalo Soldiers camp said drill instructors refused to give the boy water and made him eat dirt. Witnesses say Haynes began hallucinating before he died.
Now, you guys on the panel, I -- you know, I don't know that about this camp. It's obviously under investigation. This may be a troubled camp, you know, for troubled youth. But in general, do you think the idea of boot camps, good or bad for kids who are in trouble?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: The idea can be good, but sadism, bullying, humiliation and intimidation don't fit anybody's definition of love in any way. And if what was done to this boy had been done, for example, to our soldiers in China, we would have called that a human rights violation. And yet when it's done to a kid, it's just considered punishment. This is outrageous.
PUNNETT: Well, I don't know that we know a lot yet about this, and what we're hearing still is sort of in that early stage, where there's a lot of things being said but not a lot being proven yet. So...
JONES: Well, he's dead.
PUNNETT: ... I'm reluctant to come out and say, and you know, beat these counselors' heads against a rock. But there have been many other cases of boot camp violations in the past that had been proven, and settlements and judgments that have been made.
So let's just say in general it's really important that if you're going to have people in a position of authority -- in some cases life- or-death authority over a kid -- they better be well-qualified to be there, and not some, you know, not some kid working off his own problems, trying to pay back a bad debt, working minimum wage or something for the summer. You know, these are not the kids that you want in a situation where you know you're going to have kids who are already in trouble.
BATTISTA: And that was part of the problem I think at this camp. There were 18- and 19-year-olds to who were supervisors.
MILLER: I think you have to look at it, though, Ian, when you're talking about these children, they're not -- they don't commit minor violations. These are at-risk kids. The criminal justice system, particularly the juvenile system, doesn't work. Anything that can help these kids learn about law and order shouldn't be criticized. Yes, it's a tragedy.
How many boot camps do we have across the country, and this is -- what? -- the first death? It's unfortunate. I hope it doesn't happen again, but I think these boot...
BATTISTA: It's not the first death.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: Well, I still think, though, I hope these -- I hope that people will not be so overly critical that they shut these down, because I think they're a necessity in regards to when have you people in the criminal justice system that continue to go back and forth, and they learn how to steal, cheat, et cetera. They don't learn about discipline, respect and the law.
MCINTYRE: Well, none of these are guilty of a death penalty offense, and a couple of them...
PUNNETT: I mean, that's the key.
MCINTYRE: ... have gotten death penalty sentences because of these boot camps. And look, there is a lot of empirical evidence that suggests that the tough-love programs can be effective. But you cannot, as Victoria said, you cannot turn these camps over to sadists. And making a 14-year-old in the Arizona heat in July eating dirt, there's just simply no excuse -- period.
BATTISTA: We just happen to have once again someone in the audience who has experience with this. Actually, Jack, you went -- you went to military school, but you admitted you were sent there because you were a little bit of a problem.
JACK: Yes, ma'am.
BATTISTA: So -- and you were saying that where you went, it wasn't nearly as harsh.
JACK: No, ma'am, it was not very harsh.
BATTISTA: See, he says "ma'am" now and everything. That really makes me feel old, but I respect that. Thank you.
Anyway, tell us about your experience then at this military school.
JACK: I think it helped me for the best, because I used to be a troubled kid. I admit I'm not the best kid you'll ever meet in your life. There's no perfect kid in the world. But it did help me. I'm a lot more respectful. I do better in school.
BATTISTA: So it was a good experience for you?
JACK: Yes, it was.
BATTISTA: All right.
JACK: You did -- there were time that you would get beat up for your problems: You'd get -- have to do push-ups, but it's not going to kill you.
BATTISTA: And let me take a phone call from Mike in South Dakota. Go ahead, Mike. MIKE: OK. Well, I'd like to agree that these camps do, do some good. But here in South Dakota a year ago, two years ago, a girl died on a forced run. Medical authorities were there. Didn't know what to do. They've lost their job. The whole thing comes down to, if things were done to children in their homes like this, their parents would be in jail...
MCINTYRE: Yeah...
MIKE: ... and everybody would be screaming...
MCINTYRE: ... exactly right.
MIKE: ... boy, this is terrible.
BATTISTA: Yeah, exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
MIKE: But it's run by the state, and the state gets away with whatever they want to.
BATTISTA: Well, that's my question: Are most of these boot camps unregulated for the most part unless they're run by the state? Or I mean, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) anybody...
MILLER: I think they are run by the state, though.
BATTISTA: ... anybody can -- anybody can just start one, though?
MILLER: I think that the states have contracts, and it is through the department of juvenile justice. These are heavily regulated. I know in Alabama it's regulated, and we do have boot camps there and they are very effective.
I mean, you go somewhere and people talk about the lack of respect, lack of discipline. Again, I think there are some good points to this. I do want to reiterate that have to have, as Ian has said, as Doug has said, Victoria, you have to have qualified people doing the right thing and knowing when to stop, stop the physical discipline and such.
BATTISTA: OK. One more audience person before we go to break. Kiana (ph), your thought?
KIANA: Yes, I think that, you know, this basic or boot camp is good for them. I think a lot of kids are bringing that upon themselves, because I can see them -- I'm in the military, and when I went there, some of those kids were, like, urinating in the bed, they were trying to commit suicide. So I think that a lot of that stuff they are bringing upon themselves, but I hate what happened to that young man. But I don't think that they let him go without water or something. That was something that he probably chose to do, because he was rebelling, you know, just angry that he was probably in that camp. BATTISTA: I don't know. We'll have to wait for a further investigation on that one, I guess. We'll take another break here. Up next, should the wife of admitted spy Robert Hanssen collect his pension? We'll be back.
Radio talk-show industry magazine "Talkers" lists the top five topics of the week as the disappearance of Chandra Levy, the Okinawan rape case, the state of the FBI, the Robert Hanssen spy case, and the arrest of Robert Iler from "The Sopranos."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: A couple of quick -- quick e-mails here on the subject of boot camps before we move. Steve in Phoenix says: "This is not tough love. This is murder. No kid deserves this." Michael in California says: "A boot camp for parents on how to raise a kid might be more appropriate."
All right. Moving on, former FBI agent Robert Hanssen has pleaded guilty to 15 counts of espionage and conspiracy to spy for Russia. He will not get the death penalty. A plea bargain allows Hanssen's family to keep their Virginian home, their three vehicles, and if his wife cooperates, she will receive part of his retirement.
This all sounds fairly generous, panel members, considering that she was aware of his activities for at least some period of time during their marriage.
MCINTYRE: It's outrageous, Bobbie.
JONES: But apparently, she then thought that -- he told her that he wasn't doing it anymore, and she believe him.
MCINTYRE: Tough!
JONES: Now, in this case, a man who is capable of being a member of Opus Dei and carrying on this entire religious life quite separate from his spying life and nobody knowing that the two were going on is quite capable of deceiving his wife. If she knew anything, she should get nothing. But if she...
MCINTYRE: Even if she didn't know anything, she should get nothing.
JONES: No, no. She shouldn't be punished.
MCINTYRE: Let the Soviet Union pay the pension.
JONES: She shouldn't be punished for what he did.
MCINTYRE: This man is a traitor to the United States of America.
JONES: Yes, he is.
MCINTYRE: And he should have been executed.
JONES: But she should not be punished and neither should the children be punished for what he did.
MCINTYRE: Well, yeah, it's not a matter of punishing them...
JONES: We don't have guilt by association.
MCINTYRE: ... he forfeits -- he forfeits any compensation when he sells out his nation. He should -- they should not get one thin dime.
(APPLAUSE)
JONES: Well, that's very unfortunate.
I think that he should get nothing. I wish they could have got the death penalty for him, because treason is really the ultimate in despicable behavior. But...
MCINTYRE: Mrs. Hanssen has been living a very high lifestyle for a long time...
JONES: Yes, she has.
MCINTYRE: ... courtesy of over a million dollars. Let her get a job.
MILLER: Wait a minute. A high lifestyle? I mean, she was driving an old beat-up car from what I understand, No 1.
JONES: Yeah, they weren't -- they weren't living a high lifestyle.
MILLER: And No. 2 -- yeah, exactly. She wasn't living a high lifestyle. He was living within his means. In fact -- what? -- he had -- what? -- $300,000 for all the secrets. But Doug, I do want to touch on one thing that you said. He should be executed. Treason is treason.
MCINTYRE: Yes.
MILLER: If we're going to give a pension to Robert Hanssen's wife, why don't we give a pension to all the people that were betrayed and their families? What about them?
MCINTYRE: No, it's completely outrageous. The idea that somehow we're punishing Robert Hanssen's wife and children -- Robert Hanssen should have considered the impact that his actions would have on his family before he sold out his country.
BATTISTA: Ian -- let me...
JONES: OK. Let's talk -- let's talk real politics.
BATTISTA: Let me get -- let me get Ian in here quickly. Let me get Ian in here.
PUNNETT: I think what you're seeing here, though, is an indication of a lot more that's going on behind-the-scenes.
JONES: Exactly.
PUNNETT: And as much as this feels all really good to vent and everything, I think we can't forget that the regulations for pensions really look like a phone book, and there may be some technicality that she would have been able to keep it on appeal anyway. And if they could have gotten cooperation from her in his conviction, and it was part of the negotiation, well, you know, it's a small price to pay.
I certainly wouldn't object to it on the basis of being compassionate. But I do think that we have to be consistent, and we don't often let the wives get away -- or the families get away with something financially. There may be some civil litigation brought against this family as a result of them benefiting financially from that, and I think that's totally fair too.
JONES: Well, let's -- let's be real. I think we have to talk about this in terms of real politics. The reason that the deal was made is because we wanted information. We want to know what he did, when he did it, and who he told, and how much he sold the U.S. out. And in order to get that information we have to cut a deal.
Now we could have decided we didn't need that information, but the government decided it needed it, and so they made a deal. And the deal...
BATTISTA: Let me get -- let me get the audience in.
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTYRE: So what we have here is we have blackmail on top of treason.
JONES: That's right. .
MCINTYRE: He's got the information. He won't give it to us unless we pay off his family.
JONES: That's right. That's right.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Fine. He's a bad guy. What do you expect?
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Hold on. Time out. Let me -- let me get the audience into this quickly.
JONES: He's a spy.
BATTISTA: Let me get Mary...
JONES: He's not going to be a good guy.
BATTISTA: ... Mary on the phone in Michigan. Go ahead, Mary.
MARY: Hi, Bobbie. Hi, everybody. I just want to know, this woman knew 20 years ago her husband's activities. Why is she not being prosecuted?
BATTISTA: That is a good question.
MILLER: She cooperated with the authorities. That's why. She cooperated.
MARY: Thank you.
BATTISTA: It does -- it makes her complicit. So she got a plea bargain, too, basically.
MILLER: She got a deal. She landed a deal.
BATTISTA: Jeff in the audience -- Jeff in the audience, your thoughts?
JEFF: This is purely a practical matter. The government would want information that Hanssen had. Undoubtedly, his attorneys and the government attorneys negotiated this out. It was a price to get his disclosure and testimony. It's just a simple matter of getting information that was worth the price. Nobody politically...
MCINTYRE: But how...
JONES: It's business.
MCINTYRE: ... can you believe a thing he says? The man has been lying, living a lie for 15 years. He's going to say anything he needs to say to save his neck.
MILLER: And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) transaction. We've made treason a business transaction.
JONES: And they know...
MILLER: There are lives that have been lost because of Robert Hanssen.
JONES: And if they find out...
MILLER: Let's get his information and then give him...
JONES: ... he has been lying, if he lies to them during the debriefing process, the deal is off.
PUNNETT: Is there any doubt at all that this is free-form Friday? I mean, this is Free-for-All if I've ever seen...
BATTISTA: I know. I've got a couple of e-mails. Marco in Florida: "I think the wife should at least get her future secured because she does not have to pay for her husband's crime." Greg says: "No, she freely admits to having knowledge of his previous activities. Therefore, she is as guilty as him."
JONES: She should write a book.
BATTISTA: We'll take a break, be back in just a second. Check the poll.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: I think we hit a nerve on this Hanssen story, because we've just gotten a ton of e-mails. Gail in New York says: "I'm so very angry about Hanssen's wife getting a pension. Her husband was a traitor to this country. She knew. Why should my tax dollars pay for her to receive a pension? Let her get a job."
Greg says: "No ..." -- I guess I read that one, didn't I? Yeah, I read that one before the break.
Let's check our poll here. The question for the day was the coverage of the Gary Condit/Chandra Levy story -- do we think that the media is doing a fair job? Just right, 13. Over the top, 58. Tell me more, 28.
All right, that's it for our "Free-for-All Friday," you guys. Ian Punnett, thank you. Kevin, thank you for joining us. Doug McIntyre, Victoria, thank you, good to see you.
JONES: Thanks.
MCINTYRE: Bye, Bobbie.
BATTISTA: We'll see you again on Monday at 3:00 for more TALKBACK LIVE. Have a good weekend.
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