CNN THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN
Gary Condit Passes Lie Detector Test, but D.C. Police and Chandra Levy's Family Want More Cooperation
Aired July 13, 2001 - 20:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN. Gary Condit takes a lie detector test.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBE LOWELL, GARY CONDIT'S ATTORNEY: The congressman was not deceptive in any way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But what is Washington whispering about his future? We will hear from "TIME" magazine's senior political correspondent Michael Weisskopf.
She has been missing for almost 11 weeks, and her parents are doing everything in their power to find her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LEVY, CHANDRA'S MOTHER: My focus is to bring my daughter home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But is the focus on Chandra Levy causing other missing women to be forgotten?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is completely unlike her that she would vanish this way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, another family's agony, and a disappearance that's been unsolved for three years.
Our POINT: "Missing."
Plus, China wins, but just who lost?
THE POINT. Now from Washington, Greta Van Susteren. GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Well, he did it. Congressman Gary Condit took a lie detector test. And his lawyer says the congressman passed. Washington police are not quite satisfied.
Tonight's "Flashpoint": where do we go from here?
It turns out the congressman picked his own expert to conduct the polygraph test. The results are being forwarded to authorities. Attorney Abbe Lowell did not talk about the specific answers Condit gave, only about the questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOWELL: These were, first: did the congressman have anything at all to do with the disappearance of Ms. Levy? Second: did he harm her or cause anyone else to harm her in any way? And third: does he know where she can be located?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: Washington police were not invited to be present when Condit took the polygraph exam. Abbe Lowell did not tell us why. But he did tell us off. Lowell once again said the media should stop asking personal questions about Gary Condit and let the congressman go back to doing his job. But Washington police and the Levy family's own attorney are not exactly thrilled with these latest developments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASSISTANT CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: I have never been involved in a polygraph in all these 30-some years of policing and homicide investigations where the polygraph examiner didn't want to know the facts of the case. And generally, the honest facts of the case, quite frankly, are given by law enforcement authorities, so this is a bit self-serving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILLY MARTIN, LEVY FAMILY ATTORNEY: We asked the congressman to cooperate with law enforcement authorities on agreeing to a term that would avoid any questions as to the objectivity of the polygraph. We asked that some time ago, and yesterday it seems that the congressman and his attorneys snuck off to a private polygraph examiner and took a term -- a polygraph on his terms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: At least one lawmaker still is not satisfied with this afternoon's developments. About an hour ago on CNN's CROSSFIRE, Georgia Republican Bob Barr repeated his call for Condit to resign from Congress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: At the beginning of this lawful investigation of her disappearance, Congressman Condit was not forthcoming, he did not tell the police the full truth and nothing but the truth, he misled them and apparently misled them badly. And that is why I have called for a House Ethics Committee inquiry, not because of his self-serving activities now, but what he didn't do at the beginning of a very critical and perhaps life-threatening investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: Bob Barr is never shy about saying what he thinks. But what is the rest of Washington saying off camera? "TIME" magazine's senior political correspondent Michael Weisskopf has been listening to the whispers. Michael, listening to the whispers, what are people saying off camera about the polygraph examination?
MICHAEL WEISSKOPF, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, the whispers are pretty loud because people are even saying it publicly, and that is that there -- it has mixed reviews. It is a step toward cooperation and exoneration. But plenty questions still remain.
The chief, you just heard, talked about the questions and the facts of the case. What he is talking about are the more nuanced, textured question that this polygrapher apparently was not able to do because he wasn't steeped in the facts of the case.
VAN SUSTEREN: But in some way, it has ratcheted up a little bit, because the chief didn't come out and say, we are satisfied, we are happy, he did the polygraph, that's over, and you have Billy Martin ratcheting up as well, coming out and saying we are still not happy too. So, what does that do, sort of the whispers -- and politically?
WEISSKOPF: Politically, there is no question that Condit remains under increasing pressure, even from his own delegation in California. Both senators from California, women senators, have called upon him to come forward to cooperate more forthrightly and also more openly.
VAN SUSTEREN: But if he has talked about -- I mean, Abbe Lowell who got up today, his lawyer, and had that -- sort of looked like a closing argument, quite frankly -- but he is very passionate, he says, look, he has done everything, he has spoken to the police for three hours, he has flown back here with his wife, his wife talk to them, he said to search his apartment, he's done a polygraph, what more do you want? What more could he do?
WEISSKOPF: Remember seven days ago, when he admitted really under pressure and only in the third interview that he did have an affair with Chandra Levy, what the rest of the public wants and what the people who are calling for more mean is that they want him to talk more openly about what happened.
VAN SUSTEREN: But with whom?
WEISSKOPF: With the police. VAN SUSTEREN: But I mean, he has met with them. I mean, at some point, there, I mean, the well does become dry. At some point, he has told all.
WEISSKOPF: Well, it's true, and just to the extent that we have been able to tell from his defense lawyer, he has moved very far in the direction of full cooperation, but we just don't know, because we are not the police, only the police know what questions remain unanswered.
VAN SUSTEREN: What do you make of Congressman Bob Barr asking for an ethics inquiry on Capitol Hill?
WEISSKOPF: No surprise. Bob Barr is on the far right of the Republican Party. When a Democrat begins calling for those types of things and begins calling for Condit's removal from Congress, that is what is more important politically.
VAN SUSTEREN: Is there a problem for Congressman Barr -- I mean, there have been some Republicans who have some, you know, have strayed -- maybe, you know, you have Congressman Burton, for instance, there was a big discussion here a few years back about him fathering a child out of wedlock. Is this about morality, or is it about something more, do you think?
WEISSKOPF: With Bob Barr, it usually begins with morality. He has a very keen sense of it. And I think, though, that because he is on the far fringes of the Republican right, it won't echo.
VAN SUSTEREN: Do you think that Congressman Condit is -- can be effective at this point?
WEISSKOPF: He will have a really hard time coming back at this point. He has got to explain why he admitted so late that he had an affair with this woman, to what extent he may have set back police investigations, the fact that he allowed his staff to go forward and make statements which were not truthful, is a hard thing to deal with -- with constituents.
VAN SUSTEREN: But he can sort of pass it off to Abbe Lowell, the lawyer, the mouthpiece. Can't he go back now to Congress and work on legislation, or is Congress -- or are his colleagues going to give him a little rough time?
WEISSKOPF: Well, let's begin with understanding that Congressman Condit was not exactly a workhorse legislatively. I can't think of a single bill where his name is on it, a major bill. He has worked on constituent interests generally, protecting farm interests in the Central Valley. He is not known as a legislator's legislator.
VAN SUSTEREN: But has been there since 1989, he's held onto that seat.
WEISSKOPF: A popular figure.
VAN SUSTEREN: He is a popular figure. WEISSKOPF: He is a popular figure, he is able to maintain his conservatism in Congress and reflect the interests of that farmland.
VAN SUSTEREN: Do -- what about those constituents, are you hearing anything? I realize it's across country, but what are we are hearing about his constituents, are they sort of -- does this now do it, the polygraph, has it handled that problem?
WEISSKOPF: You know, every public opinion survey I have seen is pretty much split down the middle. As many people support him as are defecting from him. Whether or not that begins shifting now in one direction or another, we'll have to see.
VAN SUSTEREN: You know, we are so immersed in this right now. I mean, it's so scandalous, we're hearing, you know, horrible things that are being alleged -- and I underline "alleged" -- about the congressman, but will time cure this? I mean, he is not up for re- election until 2002, do you think the time -- if we are at the end now, if the polygraph finally puts it to rest, and Chandra Levy is either discovered or not, time cured for him?
WEISSKOPF: Well, of course, second acts in American politics are pretty common. Whether or not he will have enough time -- and I guess, what -- 16 months to recover remains to be seen. Then again, if there is a break in the case and it moves clearly away from him, he can claim some form of vindication, and victimization.
VAN SUSTEREN: You know, I thought...
WEISSKOPF: ... and that's a very popular issue, particularly in a district like that.
VAN SUSTEREN: But can you really be a victim when you have had to admit to having an extramarital affair? Can you really be a victim -- and with a young woman and an intern?
WEISSKOPF: The Clintons were quite successful in playing that card over the years, and they did attract a sizable percentage of the electorate to that, the idea that the press and prosecutors and the police had to invade his personal life, even though it turned up unseemly behavior. It's still is a big chord.
VAN SUSTEREN: But of course, Clinton had going for him that he was the president and the economy was doing very well, the country was going very strong, he did have that protection.
Michael Weisskopf, thanks very much for joining me this evening.
One thing Washington police and Gary Condit's attorney keep repeating is that their hearts go out to Chandra Levy's family. And the Levys are not letting up in their search for Chandra. Listen to what Chandra's mother, Susan Levy, had to say during a taping for this weekend's edition of the TV show "America's Most Wanted."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SUSAN LEVY, CHANDRA'S MOTHER: I'm not worrying about anybody's political career or anything like that. My focus is to bring my daughter home. And it is important to find out who she has been with in the last few days, that the communication was there, and who the relationship she was with, and to build an understanding to what might have happened.
I think that she, if there was a, you know, a romantic breakup or something, I think she could be very saddened but she would go on because she knew she had a future, her school, and career, and I don't think she would harm herself as media had talked about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: The Levys are at the focal point of attention. But because of their plight the national spotlight is now shining on other missing persons cases, like the case of a 27-year old, five- months pregnant woman who vanished nearly three years ago. I'll talk with her sister when THE POINT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: We can talk about it all night. We can look at pictures. We can listen to interviews. But in the end, you and I will never know exactly how Chandra Levy's parents feel right now. But some people do. They too, have a loved one who has disappeared. What is being done for them? Here is CNN national correspondent Eileen O'Connor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chandra Levy is just one of 141 missing persons Washington police are supposed to be looking for. Mandated procedures say they first must receive an official report, then must determine if the case is critical. Is the missing person a juvenile, an senior citizen, in need a doctor's care. But if they believe the person is in danger, as they say they did with Chandra Levy, police have broad discretion to intensify their search.
ASSISTANT CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: The thing that made it critical was the fact that she completely vanished. It was out of character, no alcohol involved, no drugs, no message.
O'CONNOR: In every case, police are supposed to thoroughly investigate, conduct interviews, and search the missing person's home.
ERNIE ALLEN, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: You talk to people. You try to find out who saw what. You try to find out if the person who is missing told anybody anything to suggest that he or she was leaving for some purpose, or was unhappy with their life.
O'CONNOR: The family of Joyce Chiang, a government lawyer who disappeared in 1999, and was later found dead, charge police did little to find her. It was up to friends to hand out pictures. Critics say little was done this time as well, at first, perhaps, because a Congressman was involved.
CHIEF CHARLES RAMSEY, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: You know, it's easy in retrospect, for people to look back after about 11 weeks worth of information out and say, how come in week one or week two you didn't do something. But we didn't have that information in week one or week two.
O'CONNOR: Now, other critics say pressure from the Levy family and intense media focus means special treatment.
GAINER: If you didn't see the police doing something we'd be faulted for sitting on our keisters. If we're out there doing something and the press knows about it then we're showboating.
O'CONNOR (on camera): And the police here say until there is concrete evidence of foul play, this missing persons investigation will remain just that.
Eileen O'Connor, CNN, at police headquarters in Washington, D.C.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAN SUSTEREN: You know Chandra Levy's name. But you probably have never heard of Kristine Kupka. She also vanished without a trace. But it has been nearly three years since she disappeared. Her sister, Kathy Kupka, joins me from New York, along with former New York City Detective Gil Alba.
Welcome to both of you. First to you, Kathy, October 24, 1998, was the last time your sister was seen. Where was she, who saw her, and what happened?
KATHY KUPKA, SISTER OF MISSING WOMAN: Kristine was at her apartment in Brooklyn and she was getting ready to leave with the father of her unborn baby. She was five months pregnant. So she was actually leaving with him to go see an alleged apartment that he rented. And then she never returned.
VAN SUSTEREN: Now did he come to the house that day, the apartment? KUPKA: Yes he did. He came up to pick her up and he rang the bell and didn't want to come up, but she wasn't ready yet. So he was kind of forced to come up but when he did, according to the roommates, he was really nervous jittery anxious walking around pacing the apartment.
VAN SUSTEREN: What kind of relationship did she have with the father of her unborn child at the time? Well, when she became pregnant she didn't know that he was married, but he was married. And when he found out she was pregnant he begged her to have an abortion and pleaded with her and was desperately pushing her to have an abortion.
when she wouldn't, he actually disappeared off the scene for a while, then at the beginning of October, about 24 days before she disappeared, he said his wife found out, his parents found out, he got thrown out of his house, he needed her to help him and he wanted to be involved with the baby so on.
But then we later came to find out after my sister disappeared that none of that was true. His mother didn't know about it, his wife never threw him out, nothing.
VAN SUSTEREN: OK, so your sister left on October 24, 1998, with father of her child, left the apartment, and was never seen again. Now, at what point after that was she reported missing?
KUPKA: Well, the next day which was Sunday the 25, I went to the police, and I found out about 10:30 that she had never come home. And I knew immediately that he killed her. Kristine had been afraid of him in past, so it wasn't, you know, he had spent a lot of time, there was a lot of premeditation here trying to make her trust him and go with him.
So I went to police next day and they said they couldn't really do anything to help me.
VAN SUSTEREN: OK, now he has never been charged, he has never been arrested on it. Did you ever ask him what happened to your sister?
KUPKA: Yes, my husband and a friend of ours went and actually confronted him and that is how we found out he still lived at home. And he said, how should I know? Go file a missing persons report. That was the extent of anything that he said to me. He never spoke to me, called me, nothing.
VAN SUSTEREN: Gil, why is this unsolved?
GIL ALBA, INVESTIGATOR: Well, we don't have enough evidence right now, just like the Chandra Levy case, the evidence is not there, probable cause is not there, but we have a lot of confidence that this case is going to be solved and hopefully, within -- soon -- within, let's say a year or so. I mean I don't know how long it takes but we are very confident that it's going to be solved because we have been doing a lot of work on this case.
VAN SUSTEREN: Gil you, say you are very confident. It has been almost three years. I must tell you that I don't have a terrific amount of confidence. What gives you this confidence? There is no body, she hasn't been heard from in almost three years. No one has been arrested. What gives you this confidence?
ALBA: Well, I have been working on this case almost every day. I have done other cases similar to this. Kathy and myself probably interviewed close to 800 to a 1,000. We interviewed everybody in his family. We go out almost every day and try to get as much publicity as possible, just like the publicity is going on here.
I kind agree with the publicity and hope it keeps on going. But I know every intricate part of this case and know, and I have a vision of when it is going to end and how it is going to end. And just like I have somewhat of a vision about this case. VAN SUSTEREN: You talk about a vision. Do you have any evidence connecting anyone to any crime? We don't have a body, we don't know if she walked out, although I presume Kathy would think it is unusual that she would just walk off, but do you have any evidence that actually suggests a crime and that somebody did it?
ALBA: We have no smoking gun as you say. We do have people calling me all the time. I mean people call me rather sometimes than they call the police -- they will call me, and close family relatives would tell me what kind of a pattern this particular subject has, which is his name is Rudy Persaud. Now for myself to focus on one individual and offer the police to -- like the D.C. police to focus on one individual, they're not going to get the peripheral information that they want. So, that's really not helping their investigation. That's why they're looking at everything, and I looked at everything. And now my focus is totally on one individual, and I believe that he had help, and I'm after the other second individual also.
VAN SUSTEREN: Kathy, how did your sister meet the father of her child?
KUPKA: He was an adjunct lab instructor at Baruch College, where Kristine was attending school..
VAN SUSTEREN: And how long had they been, you know, had some sort of friendship or relationship?
KUPKA: Well, they were very friendly and very flirtatious throughout the whole semester, and then they started seeing each other like the end of May.
VAN SUSTEREN: Kathy, have you -- I assume you're dissatisfied with the police work in this case.
KUPKA: Well, I was dissatisfied, because, you know, oftentimes, like the same with Anna-Marie Scivetti in Staten Island and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Queens, I mean, the police aren't quick to jump on it, because most people just come back. But I think it's really important that they have training and they understand how to, like, listen to a case like Gil did.
Gil came in. He listened to everything, and he was able to ascertain like the important facts and know it was an emergency situation, whereas the police that listened to me at the 70th Precinct that first night, or the second night -- I'm sorry -- they just said, you know, not much we can do.
So they didn't start investigating until the media became involved. And that's a shame, because a lot of times the media won't become involved, and that's really sad, because there are a lot of people in the same situation as the Levys and they're not getting any help whatsoever.
VAN SUSTEREN: Kathy, what's it like to wait?
KUPKA: It's horrible. Every day is horrible, because, you know, it's always in your mind and you're always stressed about it. And my -- you know, it affects your entire life. It really does. And I know other family members and other, not only my own, but other people that are missing I'm very friendly with, and we all have the same feelings. It's like dread, it's hope, it's despair. It's, you know, incredible nervousness, depression. You know, it's really horrible. Truly horrible.
VAN SUSTEREN: Kathy, do you have any hope or expectation that your sister is alive?
KUPKA: No. No, none. But I know that we're going to find her, and I know, I absolutely know we're going to find her. And I'm really confident about that. I mean, every bone in my body knows that we are going to find her. So -- and I know that Rudy is going to finally get what he deserves. And also I know that the family members, like Gil alluded to, that they do talk to us. People have told Gil confidentially, and we just know that it's going to happen.
VAN SUSTEREN: Gil, how you can hide a body?
ALBA: You know what I did on this case -- I mean, this is after a period of time. I took a map, and I figured out what could happen now. This individual came and picked up Kristine Kupka, and what did he do? Put her in car and he drove her someplace. I mean, now what -- what could have happened to her? Did he kill her and where did he kill her, and then where did he hide the body?
Now somebody to hide a body, you have to be familiar with where you're going and what you're doing.
VAN SUSTEREN: So in -- bottom -- we're running out of time. Bottom line is you can hide a body.
ALBA: Definitely. You can definitely hide a body.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, Kathy Kupka and Gil Alba, thanks very much for joining me this evening.
KUPKA: Thank you.
ALBA: We appreciate you -- appreciate having -- being on.
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, China gets the games. Who do you suppose will get the gold medal for human rights? I'll have a "Final Point" after a quick break and our "MONEYLINE Update."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: A controversy of Olympian proportion. Tonight's "Final Point": fireworks and games. The vote is in. The winner is China. And happy they are in China. People in Beijing danced in the street as a celebration erupted after the announcement that the games of the 29th Olympiad will be in that city.
Beijing won on the second round of a secret IOC ballot, receiving 56 votes. But not everyone is thrilled that China will be hosting the 2008 summer games.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM LANTOS (D), CALIFORNIA: We have had historically two examples. We had the Olympics in Hitler's Germany in 1936. And the notion that getting the Olympics makes for democratic development was clearly an absurdity, because the Holocaust followed the Olympics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: My point: I like fireworks and I like celebrations. I look forward to this same Olympian-style celebration when China finally stops the human rights violations.
Let's hope it is well before the torch is lit for 2008.
Let me know what you think. Send an e-mail to askgreta@cnn.com. That's one word, askgreta.
Next, flight attendant Anne Marie Smith tells Larry King about her relationship with Gary Condit. I'm Greta Van Susteren in Washington. Have a great weekend. I'll see you on Monday.
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