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CNN Take Five

What's Next for Gary Condit?; Campaign Finance: Murder or Suicide in the House?; Did China Deserve Olypics Despite Human Rights Record?

Aired July 14, 2001 - 20:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAKE TAPPER, CO-HOST: Good evening. Here on TAKE FIVE, our own private polygraph experts have assured us that we all check out. So join us and TAKE FIVE with Jay Carney, White House correspondent for "TIME" magazine; and Danielle Crittenden, author and journalist who's serializing a novel at opinionjournal.com this summer; our regular panelist Robert George of "The New York Post"; and my co-host Michelle Cottle of "The New Republic." I'm Jake Tapper from salon.com.

Folks on Cap Hill kill a campaign finance reform bill in a debate that is shrill. In the flow, J.Lo does a no-no. And the Olympic rings to Beijing to the land of Deng Xiaoping. These stories, and I promise no more bad rhymes, just ahead -- Michelle.

MICHELLE COTTLE, CO-HOST: Jake, first Chandra and the congressman. The intern, still missing. The Congressman, Democrat Gary Condit of California, keeping quiet but sending out his lawyer to tell us all to back off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBE LOWELL, REP. CONDIT'S ATTORNEY: Those people who honestly are concerned about the disappearance of Ms. Levy will now realize that Congressman Condit has exhausted the information that he can provide and that the spotlight on him should be turned elsewhere.

So Jake, do Condit's latest moves signal an end to the affair?

TAPPER: Of course not. And it's amazing, the righteous indignation that a defense attorney can muster. After 10 weeks of not cooperating with the police, Gary Condit is outraged at us, at media.

You know, the idea that he and himself -- he and his lawyers have given himself this polygraph exam is about the same as my mom vouching for me. It means absolutley nothing. This is going to keep going and going until it peters out or until we find her.

DANIELLE CRITTENDEN, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: Well, in fact, do you think he's even more guilty when you administer your own polgraph? I mean, a week ago I was sort of sympathetic. He looked like he could be a man just caught in this horrendous situation. And you sort of understand the stonewalling and the political repurcussions. In the past week with the -- you know, the forced affidavits, the 18-year-old affair, and a woman who has potentially been told to shut up, and culminating in producing your own polygraph test and not cooperating with the police. This is not a man who is acting like he's innocent.

JAY CARNEY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: But this is also not a man who has ever been declared a suspect in anything, in fact...

COTTLE: Oh, but that's a total technicality, Jay.

CARNEY: Why should he do anything except -- do a polygraph at all, frankly? Certainly, why should he submit to a police polygraph voluntarily?

If they want to say that you're a suspect in a crime, and we'd like you to take a polygraph, fine. But what exactly are they -- I mean, they should polygraph everybody that Chandra has had contact with in last four, five, six -- I'm not admiring or condoning Gary Condit's behavior...

TAPPER: Yes you are.

CARNEY: No, I'm not...

TAPPER: You told me you admire him.

CARNEY: OK, Gary Condit is my favorite congressman.

ROBERT GEORGE, "THE NEW YORK POST": Let's put aside the legalities for a second. You've got an elected member of Congress who sends out his own people -- people who work for him on the public payroll, basically to lie to his constituents and lie to the public that he was having an affair with this woman...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: I've got a great story for you...

CARNEY: Hello! Wake up, it's Washington.

TAPPER: I've got a great story about -- one of his staffers called me. I did a radio interview and the radio guy asked me, what's wrong with the wife? We hear the wife's sick. I said, you know, I don't know. There's all this speculation she has lupus, she has encephalitis, she's missing her thumb, she's not well -- I don't know what the story is.

I get a call from Condit's office, this guy Dayton, and he's angry at me for talking about...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Dayton, exactly, I know, it's very Dickensian.

And he's angry with me for not checking with the office first about the wife. I'm like, fair enough, I should have called. What is the deal with the wife? What's her sickness? He goes, none of your business.

COTTLE: They have lost all right to complain about anything at this stage. It's not whether he is...

GEORGE: And as Danielle was referring to -- the story about the then-18-year-old, now I think she's 24, 25, minister's daughter...

TAPPER: Who denies an affair. Who denies that...

GEORGE: I know...

CARNEY: All that is irrelevant.

GEORGE: No, let me finish Jay.

His office came out and denied the affair, but after they had the denials on Chandra, how can we believe anything...

TAPPER: Who cares?

CRITTENDEN: But Robert, everybody -- we all know everybody lies about homicide.

(LAUGHTER)

COTTLE: They had the thing in the paper today -- no, talking about he's answered the three questions that matter and so now, as far as they're concerned, it's closed. You know, did he kill her, did he have anything to do with her disappearance? So these are the only questions...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: The police can't call him a suspect...

CARNEY: Because there is no crime.

GEORGE: ... because there's no body; because there's no body.

TAPPER: Or evidence of crime; or evidence of a crime.

CARNEY: What is important about the fact that he had an affair or may have had an affair with somebody in California? That he had an affair with...

(CROSSTALK)

CARNEY: ... has nothing to do...

(CROSSTALK)

COTTLE: ... no, and how he treated these women. If the women are scared because he threatened them...

CARNEY: But they didn't -- but they're not missing. Chandra...

(CROSSTALK)

CRITTENDEN: ... intimate knowledge of her last hours and movements, and that's critical to an investigation like this.

CARNEY: They could charge Gary Condit with obstruction of justice if they wanted to. But all of these affairs -- these separate affairs have nothing to do with the central issue, which is Chandra levy; it's not Gary Condit.

(CROSSTALK)

CRITTENDEN: ... but why would you not cooperate right away with a police investigation of a potentially murdered woman?

CARNEY: Because you're trying to hide an affair. I'm not condoning it; I'm saying that's not illegal...

(CROSSTALK)

CRITTENDEN: The affair is out, and he still stonewalled.

GEORGE: It's the Clinton excuse, right? Because it just...

(CROSSTALK)

CARNEY: They can charge him with obstruction of justice. But if they're not going to charge him, they should continue to investigate but, you know, I don't see what the problem is here...

COTTLE: But there is. Why not take the polygraph?

There is an interest in how he treated other women he had affairs with. I mean, if one of these womened had popped up said, oh, he threatened to do something terrible to me if it leaked out.

CARNEY: But they haven't.

COTTLE: No, but...

CRITTENDEN: They have said they've been threatened.

COTTLE: They have said that they have been scared, but...

CRITTENDEN: The stewardress said she would face consequences.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: You know, one of the things is this; one of the big points is this, and I guess...

CARNEY: Pure speculation.

TAPPER: I get the point you're saying. But what has happened, in this investigation Gary Condit has proven to be a complete sleazeball. Now, that doesn't mean that he had anything to do with her disappearance, but it means that it's very, very difficult for people to defend him.

GEORGE: he has brouhgt people together. He's brought the ultraconservatives -- the ultraconservative Bob Barr from Georgia and "The New Republic" together in saying that he should resign, so...

COTTLE: Well then he sshould be elected a national leader, we shouldn't be condemning him.

GEORGE: Because he's a uniter, not a divider.

TAPPER: Well, the only disappearance any member of Congress is definitely responsible for is the campaign finance reform bill that died on Thursday. Speaker Dennis Hastert, Republican of Illinois -- he hit that bill over the head and sent members of the House back home.

Leaders of the reform movement, however, fight on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: This is not a happy day, when we see this kind of rancor. And that's not what the American people want from us, and I believe that early next week they'll see a cooperative atmosphere so we can move forward with the legislation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: OK, a quick round of takes on this: Robert, reform is dead; homicide or suicide?

TAPPER: Assisted suicide. In the House you had members of the Congressional Black Caucus who noticed how soft money helped them get out vote in Florida and across the country in the last election, and at least half of them didn't want to vote for it this time. And that's one of the main reasons why it died.

TAPPER: Danielle.

CRITTENDEN: I think we're going to need a silver bullet, I'm afraid. This bill should be renamed "campaign free speech restriction." It was a naked attack on free speech. It attempted to stop individuals from advertising before elections. I hope it goes away, but I'm afraid it won't.

TAPPER: Michelle.

COTTLE: At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I've got to say the reform advocates ought to be a little ticked off at Gary Condit and Chandra Levy because I think McCain suffered from not being able to get any news pressure or public coverage for his issue this week.

TAPPER: For the first time ever -- Jay Carney.

COTTLE: That's right, ever.

CARNEY: It was homicide. I mean, look, even Chris Shays, who was one of the sponsors, said his own party killed the bill. Obviously there was some nervousness among Democrats who realized this thing could actually happen, and the Democrats could actually suffer more from, you know, from the elimination of soft money. But the fact is, this won't go away because John McCain is not going to go away, and we'll keep hearing about campaign finance reform.

TAPPER: And I have to say I agree with Robert to a degree. I think -- I mean, Denny Hastert pulled the trigger, but there are a lot of people popping corks at the DNC, a lot of Democrats who didn't want that thing to happen.

COTTLE: All right, that's going to have to be it.

Up next: What was the Olympic Committee thinking, and what was rap star J.Lo thinking when she slipped the "N"-word into her new song; and "Our Takes," all ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to TAKE FIVE. Hey, you know what all the hip kids are doing? They are checking out our Web site, CNN.com/TAKE5. They learn more about the show and they have an online chat every Friday. Jay Carney was at the keyboard this week, lightening it up like Mozart. We are all very proud of you -- Michelle.

COTTLE: Let the games begin. The International Olympic Committee chose Beijing for 2008. The Chinese exploded into celebration, and the world's most populous country braced for fresh international scrutiny over its record on political repression and human rights. So, Danielle, does the committee get the gold for this one?

CRITTENDEN: I think they get the gold for bipartisanship. I mean, here you had the head of the IOC, a former Franco fascist awarding it to a communist country, so I think, you know, they should get points for that. But the IOC has always been a totally corrupt and politicized organization. I mean, they awarded it to Berlin, they awarded it to Moscow during the Cold War. We shouldn't be surprised that they have given it to China, but is it wrong? Yes.

GEORGE: Well, yeah, the thing is, though, precisely because of the Germany and the Russia precedents, you know, in a sense, you know, Beijing's human rights is kind of bean ball compared to those others, and if they could do it in that situation, obviously they could do in this. We can hope that this means that Beijing is going to open up, but I'm not exactly optimistic on it.

TAPPER: I love the idea that the Chinese actually proposed that they play -- they hold the volleyball games in Tiananmen Square, where up -- anywhere from 300 to 3,000 Chinese dissidents were slaughtered. (CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: The tanks will actually be on each side of the net, you see.

TAPPER: I could see how that would work.

CARNEY: I have a lot of trouble with this, because I think what it showed -- it's all this -- there's all this, you know, everybody is holding their breath and hoping that if we just bring the Olympics or if, you know, we do these various things, basically introduce more commerce into China, will it's going to affect human rights abuses in China, but so far, I mean, the Chinese leadership continues to oppress people in their own country, and I think that this is a reward that is undeserved.

COTTLE: So far? They've had it for a week now! I mean, you're not willing to wait a little bit of time here? They released the detainees that they've had.

CARNEY: But the hypocrisy of the way that we, you know, trade with China -- I'm not saying that we shouldn't, but I think that there should be an acknowledgement of the way that we trade with China despite their human right abuses, when we don't trade with countries like Cuba because they're tiny and economically insignificant.

TAPPER: Well, from human rights to human tragedy. Monday marks two years since the crash of the plane piloted by John F. Kennedy Jr., killed him, and his wife, and his wife's sister. Now a New York court has paved the way for the Bisset family to settle a claim against JFK Jr.'s estate.

So, this week's TAKE FIVE's "Wretched Excess Award" goes to the families, slugging it out over the secret settlement that one report pegs at $15 million. Michelle, you and I have been yelling at each other all week about this. What is the problem with the poor Bisset family getting some of John John's $100 million estate? What's the problem with that?

COTTLE: Oh, so because he is extraordinarily wealthy, this makes it OK? They don't deserve a dime! Yes, it's a tragedy, but he didn't do it on purpose. And you know, quite frankly...

TAPPER: Negligence!

COTTLE: Oh, please! If he had lived, maybe.

CARNEY: I'm with Michelle, for better or worse. OK? You don't get a payoff...

CRITTENDEN: But I think there should be an exception for any woman who gets involved with a Kennedy...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: ... not to be unsympathetic, but you know, getting into a moving vehicle with a Kennedy is going to...

(CROSSTALK)

COTTLE: And that is exactly what this is about! People are picking on them because they are the Kennedys, and they're rich, and they're like oh...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: ... the investigation showed that it was pilot error, so I think it's legitimate...

(CROSSTALK)

COTTLE: ... absolutely not true. You know, maybe if he had lived and they wanted to punish him, but there is no point to it. The guy died, the girls died. You can probably call some kind of a legal issue on this, but morally it's absolutely disgusting, they do not deserve a red cent.

CARNEY: Here, here.

TAPPER: This type of thing happens all the time, somebody is responsible for someone's death, the family sues. If they have $100 million, I mean, what's going to happen to that...

COTTLE: The fact that they have $100 million should not make a difference, that is absolutely unfair.

TAPPER: What is going to happen to that $15 million if it doesn't go to the Bissets? It's going to go to some other rich brat.

COTTLE: It's going to go to the kids -- oh, I see, so this is your way of redistributing wealth now.

TAPPER: That's right, this is a socialist move!

GEORGE: Well, that's not the first time for Jake, you should know that.

COTTLE: No, but it is absolutely absurd. Yes, it's a tragedy, but we don't have to turn ever personal tragedy into an opportunity for this family to start doing its money-grubbing legal...

(CROSSTALK)

COTTLE: Yes, they lost two daughters, and $15 million is going to make that right? Who are they punishing? John Kennedy Jr. is dead...

(CROSSTALK)

CARNEY: ... they lost their son-in-law, John Kennedy, Jr. was also a member of their family, so because the daughters were in the plane, they're just going to take money from one victim, because you know, their family was part of the other -- you know, the other two victims were part of their family, I just think -- I think it's wrong.

COTTLE: So, Jake is once again wrong. So, we are going to move on to disco diva Jennifer Lopez. J.Lo is in some hot water with some DJs this week for lyrics in her new single. A sample of the video is already out on her Web site.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER LOPEZ, ACTRESS/SINGER (singing): Baby, there's no mystery, because you know how I am. What you get is what you see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COTTLE: Missing online are these lyrics, quote, "people be screaming, what's the deal with you and so-and-so. I tell them, `N'- word mind their biz, but they don't hear me, though."

All right, Jay, what do you think? Some folks in the black community are saying that she is a real racist over this.

CARNEY: Well, this is clearly my day for righteous indignation, because I think that is ridiculous. Look, contemporary -- you know, lyrics in temporary music, especially, you know, urban music, rap music, is filled with -- are filled with the reference to the "N" word and a lot worse.

I think that just because Jennifer Lopez uses that word, you know, the idea that only blacks can use the "N" word in their music, you know, is ridiculous, and what's appalling about it is that the DJs who took out after Jennifer Lopez then proceeded to, you know, use racial slurs against her, because she is an Hispanic. I mean, that's just -- it's absurd.

CRITTENDEN: It's also -- I think, first, black lyricist, as I understand, wrote these lyrics, but what we get away from in these debates is intent, and something I think is only racist if you really intend it to be, and she was just picking up in the ghetto slang of her milieu.

GEORGE: And I am going to agree with my Negro Jay over here. That it is true, look, the "N" word got out of the bag 13 or 14 years ago with a group called NWA, who happened to spread it everywhere, and it has permeated rap, and it permeated the rest of other -- the rest of other culture. I think it's an ugly word and shouldn't be -- and shouldn't be used.

But the fact is, to say that these musical artists can use it and somebody else can't is absolutely absurd.

COTTLE: Oh, come on, though, you are ignoring kind of human nature, which is that you can attack your own family. I mean, I'm from the South -- when people make cracker jokes, or you know, when I make fun of women, that's different from when you make fun of women.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Jay never makes fun of women.

CARNEY: I think Danielle is right, because it really is context. This is music within the context of lyrics, it's not being used as a racial slur -- I mean, at least the way I read the lyrics, and I don't think that you can sort of say, Latin artists can't use that word, and black artists can't use that word. I think that's ridiculous.

TAPPER: All right, homies, I've got to break it up.

But please stay with us. Our "Takes of the Week" are coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CRITTENDEN: "My Take" this week was the group that wants a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. I agree with this. I think gay activists right now are trying to use the courts to impose something that the majority of Americans oppose.

I think marriage forms the very foundation of our liberal democracy, and I don't -- I think it deserves constitutional protection and I don't think the courts should be sanctioning a form of marriage that many disagree with.

GEORGE: I am going to have to disagree with you on this.

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: No, not so much on the context of same-sex marriage, but I don't like the idea, frankly, of amending the Constitution. We on the right are supposed to be against these -- this seems like a conservative version of the ERA.

CRITTENDEN: I agree, but I also think what is happening is that courts are undermining our rights and, as conservatives we are against legal activism.

CARNEY: First of all, marriage is not the foundation of a liberal democracy. The ideas that form liberal democracy are the foundation of liberal democracy. There are marriages in communist countries and fascist countries and those countries tend to have less divorce than America.

I agree with the amendment part, though. This is trivialization of the Constitution, to -- it's like flag burning as a constitutional amendment. These are laws that matter in the Constitution.

TAPPER: Carney, while we are on you, your take?

CARNEY: "My Take" is on something completely different. "My Take" is on the triumph of symbolism over substance in the Bush Administration. When the president took to the rose garden on Thursday to announce his plan for his plan to give every senior a prescription drug discount card, he was stealing a page from the Bill Clinton playbook. Yes, that is right. Remember school uniforms? Well as policy, Bush's proposal is basically meaningless, small bore stuff. But the fact is that his politics, when Congress is going to be fighting over Medicare for six months, eight months, a year, two years, Bush is going to be able to say, I gave you this prescription drug card. It may not mean much because seniors already have access to prescription drug discount cards, but he has the prop and he will get the credit.

GEORGE: And I say applause, applause. I don't know whether it was because he came up and visited New York, but everything seemed to turn around for Bush this week because of that. The polls went up. I thought came up -- I think it is a great idea, you are right. He is now finally going to be driving the debate on this, where he has been playing defense ever since the tax bill passed. I think it's great.

CARNEY: He's discovering the beauty of executive action, what Clinton discovered when the Republicans controlled Congress.

GEORGE: The Bully pulpit.

CARNEY: ... the Democrats controlled the Senate.

COTTLE: We watched him do this. He's done it on foreign policy, things haven't proved as basic and black and white as he thought it was. He is growing in office. We should cheer this. This be good a thing.

CARNEY: Now if we could just get him to work 5-day weeks, we might see a rise in his poll numbers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, well, Jake Baby, talk to us. Give us your take on the news.

TAPPER: "My Take" is about the Florida recount. I'm sorry to bring it up again.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But in my book, as you all know, there is a report about a conference call taking place on November 11 in which Bush political operatives talked about maybe getting some soldiers to vote after the election through absentee ballots that were available to them.

In tomorrow's "New York Times," a blockbuster story about how there are about 680 fraudulent overseas ballots that were counted in Florida, and I'm not saying that George Bush knew anything -- anything having to do with this, but there needs to be some sort of investigation. When you combine the conference call from my book, with "The New York Times" news of all these fraudulent ballots, all these soldiers who just happened to vote out there, after the election, 680 fraudulent ballots. There needs some sort of investigation.

COTTLE: Wait a minute, not 680 people who voted after the election, though. That wasn't necessarily... TAPPER: Six hundred and eighty fraudulent ballots that should not have counted, several of then that came in because they were cast after the election votes, after election, yes.

CRITTENDEN: This election can't be best 19 out of 30. These recounts are getting ridiculous, and "The Times" story acknowledges that even if these fraudulent votes were discarded that Bush still wins by 200 votes. So we are just going over and over it.

COTTLE: It did also find that there was -- they looked into this and the "Times" did their digging and they didn't find any evidence...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: They even interviewed somebody who admitted to sending in his ballot on November 8 after election day and that was a Gore voter!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jake, it's time to deal with your grief and move on.

TAPPER: You don't know who I voted one way or the other. I'm saying this is a potential felony.

COTTLE: The Bush presidency is safe for at least one more week. That is all we have time for on TAKE FIVE. Thanks for watching. Up next "LARRY KING WEEKEND."

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