Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Talkback Live

Condit's Conduct: Can He Survive Politically?

Aired July 17, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Congressman Gary Condit is back on Capitol Hill under a harsh spotlight as the search for missing intern Chandra Levy continues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: Infidelity is always unacceptable, particularly when you have an elected official involved in a position of trust with a young girl, an intern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET PARSHALL, RADIO TALK-SHOW HOST: Chandra Levy took something that didn't belong to her. She took another woman's husband. He took something that didn't belong to him. He took a 24- year-old girl that he was not married to. That is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And Levy wasn't the only other woman in Condit's life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

LARRY KING, HOST: Did you know he was married?

ANNE MARIE SMITH, FLIGHT ATTENDANT: I did.

KING: Did you have any sense that his wife knew any of this was going on?

SMITH: No. I didn't think she knew at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Adultery, infidelity, secret affairs: It happens every day. But should it be happening between elected officials and interns? And who's at fault? Should politicians be held to higher moral or ethical standards? Where would you draw the line?

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. Well, Congressman Gary Condit returned to Capitol Hill today under a barrage of cameras, lights and reporters. As the search for Chandra Levy continues, the media spotlight on the congressman remains intense.

Can it ever be business as usual for Congressman Condit?

CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is following this story. He joins us along with Mike Doyle, Washington correspondent for "The Modesto Bee."

Bob, let me start with you, if you could first update us on the status of the search for Chandra Levy.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The searchers in the two parks, particularly Rock Creek Park -- and I'll assume for the moment you all know what Rock Creek Park is -- they've ended for the day. They were out there this morning about 6:30, and they're calling it a day, as you can see. They did spot some tennis shoes, obviously large ones, not something that Chandra Levy would have worn. They also spotted a knife that apparently is the type that would be used for cutting open cardboard containers, that kind of thing, which is to say they don't think they found much at all.

This is the area they're searching, where Chandra Levy had come up with a map on her computer the last day that she was known to have logged on to her computer. Rock Creek Park is the area. They've got police cadets out there who are walking side-by-side, scouring every inch, looking for some sort of trace of Chandra Levy, and of course that would be the negative scenario.

As for Congressman Condit, the chairman of the Agriculture Subcommittee dealing with the farm bill commented on the high interest that there apparently was on the farm bill, because as Congressman Condit walked into the barrage of news cameras, saying that it had to be the farm bill which was causing so much attention and how pleased he was that finally agriculture was getting the attention it deserved.

Condit just smiled, of course, knowing full well that the reason they were there is because he was there. He is making a big point of going about doing his congressional business, trying to appear not distracted by the huge distraction that has preoccupied so much of his life right now.

BATTISTA: Well, that huge distraction must be distracting those around him as well. Has there been any reaction at all from his colleagues, any shows of support or anymore talk of resignation, anything like that?

FRANKEN: Well, no, we have not had today's resignation calls nor have we had really anybody talking about support. There's an area in between where many of his colleagues, of course, are upset by the fact that he had denied the relationship he subsequently admitted, according to police sources, to investigators.

But no, at the moment nobody is coming out and standing up and saying, we're glad that he's done everything that he has. Nobody is calling for his resignation, at least today. Most members are really just sort of standing back and letting this play out, and trying as much as possible to focus on other business, although, frankly, the reporters, those of us, are asking little except for the Gary Condit matter.

BATTISTA: Actually, Bob, you were probably busy earlier today, but Congressman Barr -- of course, he's already done it before -- but called again today on "BURDEN OF PROOF" for the congressman to resign.

Let me ask Mike how those calls for resignation, along with Trent Lott, as we know also, how are those resonating back home in the home district?

MIKE DOYLE, "THE MODESTO BEE": Well, "The Modesto Bee" is trying to take the temperature of the district right now. My colleague Jeff Jardine has written stories over the past two weeks based on polls we've done of only about a hundred people in Modesto. They're not scientific, but they do show an erosion of support for the congressman. More than half of those that Jeff and the people in the newsroom in Modesto have asked, as of last Friday, think that they would not the congressman were he to run for re-election.

So it's a small sample, but it does suggest that these calls and ongoing news has an effect.

BATTISTA: What do you mean by it's unscientific, Mike? Are you just standing on a street corner asking people?

DOYLE: No, not at all. We're doing as best we can with limited resources to go to different parts of the community and get a good cross-section. But because of the small sample size, we couldn't hold it out as being scientifically valid, but it is perhaps a representative sample, and it indicates, as I say, some -- some possible erosion of the congressman's support.

BATTISTA: I got you. Has there been any word, comment, statement, whatever from either of the local Republican or Democratic party out there?

DOYLE: Well, today there is, or will be, a demonstration by conservative groups in front of the congressman's district office in Modesto, demanding that he resign. The county Republican chairman, I understand, is, or will be later today, likewise calling upon the congressman to resign. But so far, we don't see any signs at the state level or back here in Washington that that's being followed through except by individual members like Mr. Barr.

BATTISTA: As a matter of fact, CNN national correspondent Martin Savidge is in the congressman's home district of Modesto, where that rally is supposed to take place at any time now. Marty, what's happening out there?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the rally -- we're at the Levy home right now. The rally is taking place in downtown Modesto, right outside the congressman's office. The last we checked with people that are down there watching it, there were more members of the media actually on-hand than there were protesters. The crowd of people there is said to be about 20 people in number, and they are expected to deliver a letter directly into the congressman's office, asking that Congressman Condit resign. We haven't had people shouting from the rooftops for him to step down. But clearly, as has already been pointed out by your other guests, that there are very strong feelings that people have here. They are concerned. They have not heard from their congressman. That's troubling to them. You have to keep in mind that it's not just the congressman, but Chandra Levy here now who has vanished. And this is their friend, this is their neighbor, this is someone that they grew up with. So there's a dual aspect of this whole story that has it being magnified on the city of Modesto and the 18th congressional district -- Bobbie.

BATTISTA: All right, Marty, stay with us, if you will. Let me take a question here from the audience. Jacques, go ahead.

JACQUES: Bob mentioned -- Bob Barr had mentioned that he was requesting that Congressman Condit step down. Are there anyone, any congressmen on the Democratic side that are requesting the same thing, that for him to step down?

SAVIDGE: No, there has, as far as we know, not out here in the Modesto area. There has not been amongst the California delegation. They have obviously been watching this very closely. They are clearly concerned about what they are seeing and not hearing from the congressman.

There was a meeting in Sacramento of the California delegation. They had serious issues to talk about: water issues, power issues. We are told that most of the conversation that took place behind closed doors is Gary Condit and what should be said and done about him. It's not something they talk about all the time, but it is something they think about a lot.

BATTISTA: And Bob...

(CROSSTALK)

I'm sorry. I was going to say, if the Democrats start calling for his resignation, it's all but over I think for him at that point, wouldn't you say? Are they circling his wagons right now? Or...

FRANKEN: I would think so, but right now, I think that all they're really doing -- and that would be Democrats and Republicans alike with a couple of notable exceptions -- is cutting him some slack. There is no real reason right now where they have to take the lead to be out there with a position, to be out on the limb, and then suddenly find out that as events play out they perhaps have been unfair and would have the limbs sawed out from under them.

At the moment, they can just stand back. There is no reason to be aggressive about that, which, of course, would exclude Congressman Barr and to a lesser degree Senator Lott.

DOYLE: But we should say that there have been some Democrats who have been more forthcoming and expressing the dismay. Senator Feinstein, I believe, corralled by CNN reporters, said that she was very disappointed in the congressman's actions. And Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher, I think, first told "The San Francisco Chronicle" she was quite disappointed, and there could be that accumulation of public expression short of calling for resignation that nonetheless builds the momentum.

FRANKEN: But you don't take a big chance when you say you're disappointed here. So I think that that -- you'll hear a lot of people saying they're disappointed, and that will be it for now.

BATTISTA: Let me go to a question quickly from the audience here -- Heather.

HEATHER: Yes, hi. I was wondering if Condit is going to have to vote on any major issues. And I'm sure whatever issues are related to his district would be important to those people. How could he possibly concentrate on that with all of this other going on?

FRANKEN: Well, his people are saying that they're doing -- that he's doing just that, and they're using as evidence the fact that he was an active participant today, a fairly arcane discussion about some subsidies for fruits and vegetables, that type of thing. So they're saying he is able to do that, that his ability to act as a congressman has not been compromised.

DOYLE: And in fact, he's only missed, I believe, three votes since this began 2 1/2 months ago. Those were in the first week of the spectacle. And so in terms of simply casting votes on the floor and in the committee, he is -- he is active.

BATTISTA: We'll take a quick break here. A couple of e-mails as we do. Tom in New Mexico says: "I'll never understand why elected officials risk careers, credibility and marriage just to have a fling with a younger woman. It shows a lack of good judgment on both sides."

Michelle in California says: "I do not think the issue is necessarily implicitly related to the fact that Condit has been adulterous, but instead to the apparent apathy and disregard that he seems to be showing to this investigation. To me this begs the question, can this man be trusted as a representative in Congress?"

The Chandra Levy case has also revived an old debate about adultery, morality and politics. We'll weigh in on that when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: While we were talking with the audience during the break about how, you know, someone could handle the duties of their job when they're in the midst of this kind of controversy and everything that's been going on in this man's life for the last couple of weeks -- and I'm just curious that, you know, for a good part of today there was more than one live camera just locked onto the congressman. It looked like "Condit-cam," you know, all morning long. And I'm just kind of curious, I know he knows that the media was there in droves. But was he aware that that camera was on him? Was he aware of all that scrutiny? FRANKEN: Well, if he wasn't, he hasn't learned very much in his time of office.

BATTISTA: Well...

FRANKEN: Sure, he does. Sure, he does. His every -- his every gesture was probably made with that in mind. And as for how can somebody, in fact, conduct his normal business when there's this kind of crisis swirling around him, I think that if we're going to try and put ourselves into his mind, we might remember any time that we've had a personal crisis in our life of some very, very high magnitude, and have still gone to work, been able to function in society as opposed to just collapsing.

I think, quite frankly, the psychological dynamic is probably similar.

DOYLE: In fact, if we can remember a term from just about two years ago called "compartmentalization" and the ability of a public figure to put into one compartment his personal travails and into another his public actions.

FRANKEN: But I always thought that that -- we made too much of that. I think that that's a perfectly human thing to do.

BATTISTA: Marty, on the other hand...

SAVIDGE: Although it should be pointed out -- I wanted to point out that the people here in Modesto, one of the things that they are troubled by is the fact that they thought that they knew Gary Condit, knew him very well. He was very personable, and he has this image here of being accessible to the people. You often see him in the "Condit Country" posters, dressed up like the Marlboro Man, with everything but the cigarette in his mouth.

And so people are beginning to suspect and wonder if that he did not have a carefully crafted image that was presented to the voters here, and yet seemed to have another kind of life when he was in Washington, D.C. Now you could say that could be typical of a lot of people. That may be true. But it doesn't go over too well back in his home district here in Modesto, California.

FRANKEN: No, and I think the problem is that sometimes when people find out that the carefully crafted image is not what they've come to believe, they are disappointed. Now obviously, oftentimes, it is not this extreme, but I would think that it's almost unanimous among politicians that they have a public image that they couldn't possibly live up to in their personal lives. They'd be superhuman if they could.

BATTISTA: Marty...

DOYLE: But I'd -- but if I could add that in addition to whatever degree of public versus private self, one thing that's been real about Congressman Condit, he has quite a relaxed style in dealing with the public. That's why he's -- one of the reasons he's won re- election with more than two-thirds of the vote for the past 12 years. So there is a very real, undeniable element that he's a very personable man with good people skills in the district, and people do recognize that.

BATTISTA: Marty, on the other hand, you know, you're standing in front of the Levys' house, as you said, and I'm sure people are wondering how the family is doing through all of this. Have they said anything publicly today?

You know, it must be very difficult for them to be watching, if they are, the constant coverage of this search that's going on for their daughter. Have they spoken at all with the press today?

SAVIDGE: They have. Usually, we have a conversation with the Levys every single day, and it usually takes place in the morning. The Levys are now saying that with each passing day and that they are not hearing anything of the whereabouts of their daughter, the emotional burden of that is growing more and more difficult to bear. In fact, that was noticeable by the fact that it was Dr. Levy who came out and spoke to us. Usually, it's Susan Levy, Chandra Levy's mother.

The doctor came out by himself. He admitted that his wife was very tired, having a hard time with things. And he said that optimism was fading for them but that the hope still existed.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S FATHER: I can't really say anything knew about, you know, what's going on. I know everybody's working -- working hard on it, and I just want people who have information to come out, you know. A lot of people are coming out and giving good information. So we really appreciate it. Help find Chandra. And you know, whatever -- we really appreciate everybody's prayers and help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: The Levys also admit to us that they have been watching very closely, as you mentioned on television, Bobbie, these events unfolding in Washington, D.C., and essentially the search. And we know what they're looking for may be their daughter's body, and that is very hard for them. But they also say they believe it's very important that they do watch -- Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Meanwhile, Mike, how did the other folks in Modesto and that area feel about all of the media that's descended on their community?

DOYLE: Well, there I'm reliant upon my colleagues in the newsroom in Modesto who report and tell me that it's a mixed opinion. I know that there are some hotels -- the Doubletree and others -- that have been doing booming business thanks to CNN and other crews that are in town. There is also some coffee houses that have been doing some good business. And there's some obvious concern that the city's image may be adversely affected by this. So you are getting both those who are economically benefiting and those who worry about the overall reputation.

BATTISTA: All right, you guys, thanks very much for all of your input today. Bob Franken, Marty Savidge, and Mike Doyle, we really appreciate it. Thank you.

And they used to call them, as you know, morality plays, life lessons acted out on a public stage. Are there lessons to be learned from the Condit-Levy life -- real-life drama playing out before your lies? Could you resist the tempting combo of six, power and politics? We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: My concern is the same as it was with President Clinton, and that is once you move out of the arena of personal behavior to the arena of violating the oath of office or taking other public action, action as a public official, it becomes something that ought to concern us as members of a public body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

KING: Did you feel like you were harming his wife?

SMITH: I did. I was very concerned about that.

KING: But?

SMITH: But Mr. Condit told me that she is very ill, and they didn't really have a husband/wife relationship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: I kind of cut Doris off there as we were going to the break here, and I know she wanted to have her comment. Go ahead, Doris.

DORIS: Well, obviously, he was leading a double life and he was lying about it too, just like Mr. Clinton.

BATTISTA: All right. Congressman Condit's affairs do raise the question of adultery and how acceptable it is in our own lives and the lives of our elected officials. Joining us is Maggie Gallagher, a syndicated columnist and the author of "The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier and Better Off Financially," and Victoria Jones, a radio talk show host on WMAL in Washington. Good to see both of you.

You know, yesterday we talked with the audience about -- and again today -- about whether or not a person being not true to their spouse, being guilty of infidelity, whether that alone is a reason enough for them to be disqualified from public office. And you have got the sense, Maggie, that even though people obviously felt adultery was wrong that they weren't quite so comfortable as to go so far as to say, "I think this man should be punished in this way. He should lose everything, his job, his standing, his" -- what do you think?

Why do you think -- are we more accepting of adultery, or why are we so hesitant to go there?

MAGGIE GALLAGHER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, I don't know. I think that this argument that has been made that, you know, your job and your personal life are separate resonates with a lot of Americans, because they certainly wouldn't want their employers acting as moral punishers in their personal lives. So, I guess that's probably part of the explanation.

I do think that in a public official, voters are entitled to decide what the personal character of people they want in office, and that really is something that the people of Condit's district will have to decide.

BATTISTA: Victoria, there is an awful lot of people out there, though, who are certainly passing judgment on the congressman who are not in his district and are not in a position to vote for him one way or the another?

VICTORIA JONES, WMAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yeah, it's astonishing. Thank God we're not in the 17th century. He'd be at a stake right now, I should think, and so would Chandra, I mean, with no trial, nothing. It's really quite extraordinary.

We are very keen and very quick to pass judgment morally on other people, but we really don't want anybody doing that to ourselves, and that's the interesting dilemma. We don't want our employers monitoring our private lives and deciding what we can and cannot do, and yet we want to be able to do that to other people, particularly politicians.

And yet, on the other hand, we don't know the press and the campaigns going around and digging up sleaze on them. We say we want them to focus on the issues, but we don't really. I think we are pretty screwed up.

BATTISTA: So, I assume, you don't think he should resign under these circumstances?

JONES: Not at this point, certainly not. Look, this guy is probably self-destructing. He will probably not be re-elected and he may have to resign at some point. But at this point, what do we have? We don't have a crime. We certainly don't have a suspect. What we have is a cad and a sleaze-bag.

BATTISTA: Maggie, should he resign -- if he's that, should he resign?

GALLAGHER: I think those are pretty good reasons for resigning in general, and our political culture would be a lot better if people thought that. But I also think it's important to keep focus on what the representative did, which is that when a young woman, who was his lover, his girlfriend and also his staffer, disappeared, his primary response was to cover his own interests and not to come forward, not to help the police.

And I don't know the fate of Chandra. As her parents, most people suspect that it's probably not very hopeful at this point, but the point is that he didn't step forward as a man and say, "Look, there's a young woman's life at stake," and take the heat until he was absolutely forced to, and I think that's particularly dishonorable.

JONES: It's totally dishonorable. It's appalling. It's egregious. It's cowardly. It's so many things. And he did it several times, he resisted and resisted, he delayed the investigation, he obfuscated, he spoke through his lawyer, he chastised the press for daring to cover the issue, and today, when he gave his one comment -- he was asked whether he was under pressure -- he smiled and said, "what pressure?"

I guess trying to be funny, but I don't think that it's funny. It's not funny for him to make a joke when there is a woman missing. This guy is a disaster.

BATTISTA: So what...

JONES: But he doesn't have to -- he shouldn't resign yet.

GALLAGHER: I think if you have a decent respect for your wife and family, you might resign simply to avoid putting them through this.

JONES: It wouldn't end.

(CROSSTALK)

GALLAGHER: Oh, sure, if he were not a congressman, the amount of the national attention would be slashed.

JONES: Not at this point, it wouldn't. Absolutely not. It wouldn't end.

GALLAGHER: Well, maybe not at this point, but it may or may not, but I think that in fact when you hold public office, you attract more public attention.

JONES: Certainly.

GALLAGHER: Yeah, I mean, frankly, it's probably too late to do anything particularly honorable at this point.

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Bill quickly in Florida. Bill, go ahead.

BILL: Yeah, I just have a problem with the media bias when they cover anything like this. Invariably, when it's an older male, everyone comes down on the sides that the other party involved in it is very naive and almost childlike.

And here we have a 24-year-old woman, who is a college graduate, with some education. And the truth is, she came to Washington as an intern in the Bureau of Prisons, but in fact, as a constituent and I understand that, she went to his office. And I will tell you, there is a lot of women that come to Washington -- and I lived inside the Beltway for 47 years -- with an agenda, and money and power is an aphrodisiac.

And I just think that it's way beyond just him being a predator. I think a lot of times we find that these women interact, and I just think that -- and of course, I hope that this woman...

BATTISTA: You are raising a good point, Bill, here, and let me ask Maggie and Victoria about it, about whether we should be more critical or more judgmental of these women, rather than thinking they are babes in the woods who are being taken advantage of by predators.

GALLAGHER: Listen, I don't want to think about Chandra Levy, at least until we know what happened with her, because I don't want to take the focus away from the key question, which is: is she dead, is she alive and did someone contribute to her demise.

But in general, I think that it's true that we develop this private morality around marriage, where we say, oh, does the wife care? Did the husband violate his vows? And we don't as often acknowledge a responsibility as women -- or as men -- to protect and defend marriage in general, to respect the marriage vow even if it's not our own.

And I think an awful lot of young women are not -- are being -- are not being told or taught that this is really a dead-end road, that it's degrading to you, and it's wrong. And the result is, we are throwing them out into the sexual marketplace and expecting them to invent civilization, and a lot of them are not doing well under that system.

JONES: And women generally don't do well in this kind of a relationship, and historically we've seen that to be so. This is not a new thing for young women to fall for powerful older men, and for it to end in disaster. Occasionally, it ends with the woman getting everything, and so women think, oh, I am going to get everything.

This woman was a woman and is a woman, hopefully -- and you know, I poll my listeners every week, and it was very interesting. I asked them who was most at fault, the interns or the congressmen when they come to Washington. My younger listeners, the 20-somethings, were much more inclined to say the interns, we know what we are doing, we are adults, this is what we want to do.

Now even though, if we as older people know that there are consequences to that, 20-somethings make their own decisions -- 20- somethings have ruled the world before now, conquered countries and ran entire nations. So, let's not pretend that they are children.

GALLAGHER: Well, I don't think we have to pretend they are children to say that we don't live in a society very much where we hold each other accountable for -- and despite, I guess, Victoria thinks that we live in the 17th century, and you get this immense moral condemnation, and my experience among women...

JONES: No, I don't think that.

GALLAGHER: ... is that -- is in fact that we give each other a lot of free passes on sexual conduct. The theory is that if it's sex, you can do anything you want and we shouldn't be too judgmental about each other. And I think we don't do well when we are thrown out alone, you know, to try to figure out what's good, entirely on our own. I think we owe it to each other to be -- to be giving our best judgment about what's right and wrong, and what's good and bad.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: I agree. I agree. I think we do, and I think that's what families are for. And I don't know what was said behind the scenes with Chandra's family. From what I've seen, her parents seem like very decent people, and I'm certainly not going to condemn them, because I don't know what they said to her.

I do know her mother had at least one conversation where she tried to get her to break it off with the congressman, and I think those conversations -- I agree with Maggie -- do have to take place.

But I do think that in the marketplace of ideas, we are extremely condemnatory, certainly in the press and in the media, by saying they should resign, they should go, Scarlet Letters, and put them all in camps.

I even heard a woman hysterically claiming yesterday, on this very show, that CEOs should be forced to resign if they commit adultery. Where will we put everybody?

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: Think about that for a second, Maggie. I have to take a quick break. When we come back here, we will finish that thought and plus e-mails and comments from the audience. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Well, that was kind of interesting: the older, wiser mistress questioning the younger, more naive mistress. I'm not sure what to make of that. Victoria.

JONES: I don't know what to make of that, but I think Anne Marie Smith has given it an awful lot of thought.

BATTISTA: She actually came under a fair amount of fire the other night when she was on LARRY KING, from callers who chastised her for what they perceived to be not a show of remorse or regret for having had the affair with the congressman, but again, they're judging their standard of morality against hers. JONES: And she has expressed regret, actually. Maybe not on that particular show, but she has regretted it. She said it was a mistake.

GALLAGHER: That's nice. There's something odd about a society where mistresses enjoy appearing on "LARRY KING LIVE." I mean, there's something odd about having so little shame about your own conduct that you are willing to go on national television and talk about it. I don't think it's weird that people find that a little bit distasteful.

JONES: I don't think she had an awful lot of choice. She was outed by her roommates who sold her out. She hasn't made money out of this.

GALLAGHER: Believe me...

JONES: And she has been trashed in the press.

(CROSSTALK)

GALLAGHER: You always have the choice about whether you want to go on "LARRY KING LIVE".

JONES: That's right, you do. And I think at that point, it was sensible for her to do that, because she was able to put her own self across the way she wanted to on one show, one time, and I think she will disappear and she wants to go back to her private life.

GALLAGHER: It may have served her self-interest but it doesn't (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BATTISTA: When some of the answers she had to those questions on "LARRY" the other night, she might be writing a heck of a book. I don't know.

GALLAGHER: Well, it was a fascinating interview.

BATTISTA: Yeah, it was pretty interesting.

Let me get Julie on the phone quickly, and then I'll go to the audience.

CALLER: I just wanted to say that younger women will believe anything that a man tells him if he is the one they have the crush on. All the women -- they wish they could believe anything the man says that they have to crush on...

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: Sounds like a voice of experience there or something.

CALLER: I don't see where it would build a woman's self esteem to go with a man in power as it would to build her self esteem to go with her qualified auto mechanic. Evidently, she needs to catch a taxi, she a therapist or her minister, and yes, I think he should step down. He's -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- thank you.

BATTISTA: You're welcome. Or someone who can fix the VCR.

Let me take a comment from Allen here, go ahead.

ALLEN: The affair of -- Condit's not the first politician and he won't be the last politician that has an affair. The problem is the fact that he out-in-out lied about it, he wasn't deceptive, he didn't side-step the issue, he flat lied about what happened for ten weeks.

And he owed it to that young lady and to the Washington police to come clean, right up front, to be a man and yes, this is what i did, I'm sorry, I'll suffer the consequences, but let me do what I can to help you right now.

JONES: That's the point. That's exactly the point.

BATTISTA: It's amazing he got a lot of advice to do that and he ignored all of it.

JONES: He has been so incredible stupid, it's quite astonishing. I mean, he's writing the book on how not to behave. I think people would feel quite differently about him -- and maybe this isn't the moral thing to say -- but if we thought that he cared a whip about her, I think people would feel differently about him. Of course, if he didn't have a string of them, we'd feel differently too.

But the not coming forward as the weeks dragged on and it looked more and more likely that she was dead, when he knew that he had knowledge but spoke to her state of mind, that is truly appalling behavior. That's much worse that adultery, it seems to me.

BATTISTA: Brenda from the audience, from Canada, go ahead.

BRENDA: Hello, Bobbie.

We had previously talked about whether he would be able to do his work and function properly as a congressman at this point. I believe that we all have issues -- personal issues and most of us work. And I know that if I had issues, I can certainly work and put my issues aside until I'm home from work. And even though he is under such public scrutiny, I still believe he can carry on his work.

GALLAGHER: I don't think the issue is, can he attend and concentrate on bills? The issue is, what kind of man do you want representing you in Congress? And the idea that personal behavior has no role at all, that any kind of human being is adequate as long as they can focus on community hearings, there are a lot of people who want to be congressman. You have a lot of different choices in California, and in every district and it seems to me, we ought to have some minimal standards of decency in our public officials.

BATTISTA: Let me get these couple of e-mails.

Tom in Washington says, "I have been married twice. Both of my ex-wives engaged in extramarital activities, thus, two divorces. You can't trust somebody who cheats on his or her spouse."

Lisa in Virginia says: "I'm tired of this double standard that seems to say, this man should resign because he allegedly had an affair. It takes two. And no offense to Ms. Levy, but she knew he was a married man, as did that flight attendant. They are all consenting adults."

Jean, question or comment?

JEAN: I think my comment is just, no matter what comes out of this, he's lost. He can never look his family in the face, he can really never look his child in the face and not see a loss in her eyes back at him because of all of this, no matter what. And I think that's sad for everybody.

BATTISTA: We'll take a break on that note. We will continue here in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly. Back row, we have some good comments up there.

Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's no longer an issue of just adultery. It's about violating trust and his ability to do his job now, because the people that work with him can't expect him to honestly do his job when he has violated the public trust this way.

BATTISTA: And over to -- I can't read that name tag.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Randy. Go ahead, Randy.

RANDY: Someone once quoted "power corrupts." When you get a political career, that's usually what happens. And where is the self- esteem of these young women going to Washington thinking they are going to get a step up, so they use that position, and they must have very low self-esteem.

BATTISTA: We don't know obviously, Victoria and Maggie, we don't know why Chandra got involved with the congressman. We are not even going to try to go there, and we are certainly not going to judge her in any way. We wanted to make that clear too, because we may be talking about a situation here that is going to end in tragedy, and we may have a deceased young woman here.

So, we don't really want to pass judgment necessarily on that, but overall there have been a number of incidents involving young women and these older men in Washington, and they just don't -- they don't seem to learn.

JONES: I think she fell into a trap. I think she fell into a trap that many, many women, both young and older fall into, which is that when you become sexually involved with a man, unless you are prostitute, you become emotionally involved with that man, and men don't always become emotionally involved when they are sexually involved. And she fell in love with him, and that's the disaster.

GALLAGHER: Well, I don't know that she was in love with him, but I do know that's not unusual for young women to be attracted to older, successful, a large number of whom -- most of whom are married. That's not new.

What is new, I think, is that well-educated, you know, nice young women are now in larger numbers willing to engage in entertaining these affairs. It's not only a dead end for the women, but it sends a really terrible message to young men and to other men. I mean, I think we women don't recognize the power we have together over the behavior of men. They -- every time a woman entertains that kind of offer without being repulsed by it, she is communicating that it's really not that bad a thing to do.

And -- so I -- that's why when I hear people saying things like, "well, it's not the adultery, it's the hypocrisy" -- I actually think adultery is worse than hypocrisy. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying...

BATTISTA: Maggie, do you think they are looking at this way -- because I have heard this argument before, that I'm not the one committing adultery, because I'm the single girl, you know, I'm not the one that's married.

GALLAGHER: Right. It's only the married person who made a promise and that's all that is wrong with it. And you also hear in the comments of people who want to say, well, we have to take either Gary Condit's side or his mistress' side, one or the other of them is wrong.

Well, why can't we step back and say both of them were wrong, because what we really care about is this thing called marriage, we care about honorable conduct, we care about the idea that we are not just a bundle of sexual appetites that just have to do whatever we have an impulse to do, and I think that that's what we -- and I really think it's failure of the adult generation, are not passing on to our daughters and to young people in general the idea that there are sexual rules, that they are there for your protection and they are there because they are right.

JONES: And that's the point of what I meant when I said that women when they become sexually involved become emotionally involved. And that's why it's so important to have those spiritual values, and if possible to abstain from sex before marriage, because it is an extremely complicated issue.

And it isn't something that's being taught. Or if it is being taught, it's being taught in such a way, that it, again, is very condemnatory and very judgmental, and I think that there is a way of getting this message across to children so that they grow into adults who make these choices affirmatively.

And I think there is another piece to this morality, what kind of moral politicians do we want. Are we going to say in America that morality only has to do with genitalia, or are we going to say that morality has to do with the crooked deals that you cut in back rooms with campaign contributor, or how you vote on children in poverty through no business of their own, or how you vote on seniors who can't afford to eat and get drugs.

See, I think that those are moral issues also, but they are more difficult for us to get our head around than just talking about sex. But I think morality is a much bigger issue when it comes to politicians than just sex.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: Bill is on the phone from Pennsylvania. Bill, go ahead.

BILL: Hello, how are you.

BATTISTA: Hi, how are you.

BILL: I was going to say, if the president of the United States can get away with adultery, then why can't Howard Stern's butt?

BATTISTA: Oh, come on! We haven't had a Howard Stern call in a long time. Is that just -- you are so trite.

All right. A couple of e-mails here. Barbara in Illinois says: "What a mess our country seems to be in. The majority doesn't believe in morality. You can lie, cheat, steal, and be unfaithful, and still attend governmental sessions with a big smile on your face. Deplorable!"

Up to the audience here. Chris, you have somebody for me? Dan?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dan has a comment. Dan, go ahead.

DAN: I think that we are missing the overall thing here that really needs to be addressed is the issue of morality. If somebody is doing this breaking the covenant relationship with their wife, they are in office, they got to handle millions of dollars redirecting things, they've obscured justice and they've done everything they can. What makes it seem to us that he actually function in a job that's based on trust, that's based on morality?

It seems to me that he has largely disqualified himself from functioning in that position. I wouldn't want somebody to be like that representing me, because what could he do? He could do anything, because truth to him and truth doesn't matter.

(APPLAUSE)

JONES: And yet -- I think that you make a very good point -- and yet, when we look, for example, at Richard Nixon, who by all accounts never committed adultery and was probably one of the most crooked politicians of our century -- you don't have to commit adultery to be a crook!

GALLAGHER: No, this is a side issue. Obviously, it's not the only thing voters should care about. It's not even the primary thing voters should care about, but I think that in a country of almost 300 million people, it shouldn't be that hard to find somebody to represent you who you think is a decent guy. If you don't think this is decent behavior, don't support people like that.

BATTISTA: Well, I think a lot of people thought Gary Condit was a decent guy. That's the problem. You just -- you vote and you keep your eyes closed, and you never know what's going to happen.

GALLAGHER: It's not just he -- it's not -- I don't believe that just because you cheat on your wife you will necessarily take a bribe or cheat the government. That's not necessarily true. The bigger truth is that, you know, your daughters and your husbands are watching how you react to this kind of behavior. It is public behavior at this point, not private, and that creates an obligation if to show if we care about it, and how much.

BATTISTA: I have got to take a quick break here. We will talk quickly about punishment when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right. To the audience here quickly. Paulette.

PAULETTE: Some the additives I think of when I think about adultery, and I really don't mean judge anyone, but -- is selfish, stupid, lying and cheating, and I would just think that the people of Modesto, next times it comes up for a vote, could find someone a little bit better than that.

BATTISTA: Well, we're -- yes, because that's sort of interesting, yesterday, you're right, we had a guest on our show who was pretty adamant about how these folks should be punished, and you know, short of putting them in the village square and stoning them or something, I'm curious as to how far we think that should go.

I think most people -- don't you, Victoria and Maggie -- are just comfortable to let the folks in the district settle this their own way with their own congressman, or do we automatically feel like a person should lose everything if they are a public official and they are in a public spotlight and they are caught breaking these rules?

JONES: No, why should they lose everything? Let them vote him out, which they probably will do. He is going to lose an awful lot. He is going to pay for this. If he doesn't pay for this in this life, let's face it, he's going to pay for it in the next. If she is alive, she is going to pay for this emotionally with heartbreak, and if she isn't alive, then God bless her.

BATTISTA: Maggie?

GALLAGHER: I don't -- I don't think that the goal is for us to become punishers. I think the goal is for us to have standards and to be willing to draw the line. No one has the right -- you know, Gary Condit doesn't have a right to be a congressman and to be famous or rich as a result, or whatever benefits he gets. It's a position of public trust, and we have the right to define what kind of men and women we want in those offices.

JONES: If we are going to be able to draw the line, then we have to make a decision what happens to people when they cross that line. Otherwise, there is no line.

BATTISTA: Right. That is what I'm asking.

JONES: And I'm not sure that we are willing to do that.

BATTISTA: That's true, Maggie, in a way, right? I mean, if you set that kind of standard and you draw a line in the sand, what do you do if they step over it?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think -- you know, I think the very first thing that we have to do is stop saying things like, "I don't want to judge anyone." I think we owe each other our judgments. It's too hard to be good, if you live in a world where no one seems to care whether or not you are.

So, I -- I think in America, I think we have very good values. I think people do care about adultery. I think most married men and women are faithful to each other. I don't think everyone does this, but what concerns me is our increasing tendency to say, "yes, morality is very important, but it's essentially private. I can only judge for myself." I think we should be both willing to judge others and willing to have others judge our conduct, because otherwise we are all alone in a world that doesn't care.

JONES: We judge each other's conduct all the time. All the time, we make decisions about who's going to succeed, who is not going to succeed based on their conduct, based on whether we like them, based on what they did on their private lives -- or even with politicians on how they voted.

I think we make those judgments, but whether we go beyond that into some kind of actual judgment, for example, within the law, that is the step that I think that we are talking about that we are not willing to take, and I don't think it should be taken.

GALLAGHER: I would be more -- I would be -- I would be more comfortable if Gary Condit's wife had some extra advantage in the divorce process because of her husband's behavior. So, in that sense, I think there are ways the laws could take -- be aware of these kinds of violations of marital contract.

JONES: I agree.

GALLAGHER: But fundamentally, whether or not you wait for the voters to turn him out or you say he should resign, that's what we are talking about.

BATTISTA: You know, I think a lot of...

GALLAGHER: Victoria thinks the voters should vote him out. I'm willing to say he is a bum. You know, it would be great if he resigned, I would applaud. I wish he would. BATTISTA: And I do think a lot of people are hesitant to judge in this kind of situation, because quite honestly, they think there but for the grace of God go I, at some point in my life.

GALLAGHER: So, another words, you want to give yourself a pass.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: No, no, no. I don't think it's a question of us giving ourselves a pass, I think it's more a question that we recognize that we are human and we can fail and fall as well. We are not perfect.

GALLAGHER: And that's why we need each other.

JONES: We do, with kindness.

BATTISTA: And that is a -- that's a good way to end the show. All right. Maggie Gallagher and Victoria Jones, thank you both so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

JONES: Thank you.

BATTISTA: And we will see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK, 3:00 Eastern. Be there.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com