Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Larry King Live
What's the Cost of Standing by Gary Condit?
Aired July 26, 2001 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, what's the cost of standing by Gary Condit? Two of his top aides have hired lawyers amid new obstruction allegations.
And after 87 days, still no sign of Chandra Levy. Joining us to debate the day's developments, in Ellison Bay, Wisconsin, former federal prosecutor and best-selling author Barbara Olson. In Los Angeles, Defense attorney Mark Geragos. In New York, former prosecutor Nancy Grace, now with Court TV, and with her, former independent counsel and federal prosecutor as well Michael Zeldin, plus the investigative reporter Lisa DePaulo, who's been digging into the Condit/Levy story for an upcoming issue of "Talk" magazine.
Then, later a heartfelt plea from Pat Boone. He wants you to pray for his desperately injured grandson, Ryan. With him, Ryan's mom, Lindy Boone Michaelis, and another believer in the power of healing, Kenneth Copeland, co-founder and president of The Kenneth Copeland Ministries. All next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening. Later, an extraordinary story where you might be able to help, involving the noted Pat Boone. But right now, we'll get up to date on the Condit matter.
Barbara, what do you make of the two -- the two staff members hiring lawyers today?
BARBARA OLSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, they definitely need lawyers. I mean, from what we have had reported is Joleen McKay, who had an affair with Gary Condit before she became a staffer, came to Washington as a staffer. The affair continued. And then, it's very interesting that Ms. McKay did call the FBI on May 16th. She said what she knew, but she didn't tell Condit or his staffers that she had done that. The staffers call her afterwards, and the statement by the AA, the one we talked about last night, who is always going behind Condit with the glasses, that he tells her not to tell anyone about this or her life will be ruined.
You know, although that's not an implicit -- explicit threat, it's an implicit threat, and I cannot imagine that Gary Condit would allow his staffer to do that. But any of us, which includes me, who's worked on Capitol Hill, knows that staffers don't go out, make phone calls, or get involved without the principal -- that is the member -- knowing.
KING: Mark, was it understandable why they had to hire lawyers?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I were them, I'd hire lawyers. I mean, this is a lawyer's full employment act. I mean, this -- between the pundits and everybody else...
KING: But I mean, does this border on tampering?
GERAGOS: No. I mean, in this -- from this standpoint, from what I understand, this woman actually knows...
KING: Yeah, went to high school with...
GERAGOS: ... Mike Dayton, went to high school with him. And I mean, it's a longstanding relationship with Mike Dayton. So when he says, this could ruin your life, that could be, as Barbara says, that's not an explicit threat. At best...
KING: It's hard to prove in other words.
GERAGOS: There's no way it's a criminal action, but at the same time, you don't want to be in the sights of federal prosecutors.
KING: Lisa, do you know -- did you know about this woman for your upcoming story or is this new?
LISA DEPAULO, "TALK" MAGAZINE: No, I did not. No, I did not. And I think it's so similar to -- this is the verbal equivalent of the affidavit with Anne Marie Smith. And what you're seeing is these patterns that are so consistent with all of these women who are coming forward: patterns in the relationship, in the rules of secrecy, and now patterns in how they're told to be quiet.
KING: Will you update the story to include her?
DEPAULO: Yes, absolutely.
KING: OK. Michael, is this another like nail in a coffin here?
MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: No, it's not a nail in the coffin for Condit with respect to the disappearance of Chandra Levy. But we've been talking over the past couple of days about why would Gary Condit not speak out, and what I've been saying all along was that there is this possibility of an obstruction of justice investigation. These two staffers now getting counsel and being scrutinized by the U.S. attorney with respect to what they may have said to another person or what they may have done with evidence is an indication that the U.S. attorney is taking seriously this obstruction, which answers the question that we've been asking, which is why are we not hearing from Gary Condit, because there is a live investigation that may threaten him and we have to see how the facts come out.
With respect to one thing that Barbara said, though, I believe that Dayton categorically denied the statement that this other woman said...
KING: Right.
ZELDIN: ... and I thought also as a fact it was she who called Dayton, not Dayton who called her.
KING: All right, Nancy Grace -- this is hypothetical -- if -- if Condit were to say to the aide, call this woman and tell her not to do anything, is he involved in obstruction?
NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. And I think this could signal the beginning of a movement in the case, because so far all attention has been on Condit. But once you bring in other parties, believe you me, Condit will hang him out to dry if he comes under scrutiny here. You could see a division amongst the ranks. They could use the staffers in some way now. They've got a leverage chit against them. There's a possible obstruction of justice, a possible tampering with a witness there.
So now it would be easier to divide the troops and get the real truth about what's been going on in the Condit camp.
ZELDIN: Well, the only thing about that, of course, is that all of this only relates to a possible allegation of obstruction. It is immaterial in many respects to...
KING: To Chandra.
ZELDIN: ... to missing person Chandra Levy and any sort of murder/invest...
GRACE: We don't know that.
KING: But it...
ZELDIN: Well...
GRACE: We don't know what these people know about...
KING: One at a time. Please, please. Last night, we had a little riot here.
ZELDIN: It just seems...
KING: Hold it, hold it, hold it. One at a time.
OK, Michael, finish and then somebody come in.
ZELDIN: The point is only that Nancy's correct that in a normal investigation, when you can get witnesses talking against each other, it's helpful to the prosecutor. What I'm saying here is that what this is germane to is obstruction. It is immaterial, as far as we know, to Chandra Levy and her disappearance.
KING: All right, but doesn't it, Mark Geragos, doesn't it add to the portrait that has already hurt himself? In other words, the pretty mixture is getting uglier. GERAGOS: It certainly -- I was going to say it certainly doesn't help the media frenzy here. It doesn't help the image that they're trying to create or anything else. But as a practical matter, just legally speaking, this isn't obstruction even if what she said is true, because she's the one who called, and even under the exact words that she uses, that still is not obstruction. The affidavit still is not obstruction. From a pure legal sense there isn't obstruction.
KING: What is -- give me an example of obstruction.
DEPAULO: Yeah, what's obstruction?
GERAGOS: Obstruction would be if they...
KING: What would he have said that would have made it obstruction?
GERAGOS: If he had said, look, if the FBI contacts you and asks you about this, then you don't say anything or you don't...
KING: That's obstruction?
GERAGOS: Classic obstruction, because you have to have a governmental investigation.
KING: Now, Barbara, were you laughing at that, Barbara Olson?
OLSON: Well, as Mark knows, yes, that's the classic, but most prosecutors never get that. People don't call others up and say, I want you to lie. What they call up and say, don't say anything or it'll ruin your life...
GERAGOS: Yeah, but it has to be...
OLSON: ... be careful what you say. It's always the sense of obstruction. And you know what happens...
GERAGOS: Right, but Barbara in this sense it was always in regards to both the affidavit with the other woman, the Smith, and in this case...
OLSON: But...
GERAGOS: ... it was always in terms of the media finding out. You can't obstruct a media publishing. Why is that obstruction of justice?
DEPAULO: It's OK to lie to the media then, right?
OLSON: Mark, what you're overlooking...
GERAGOS: Well, it's not a crime to lie to the media. I mean, that's -- that's...
DEPAULO: But which...
GERAGOS: I know it offends you as a journalist, but it's not a crime.
DEPAULO: But which of Gary Condit's lies are acceptable to you, Mark?
GERAGOS: I -- well -- I'm not saying they're acceptable or unacceptable. What I'm telling you is that it is not a crime to lie to the media.
KING: In other words -- in other words, Lisa, he can lie to you.
GERAGOS: Yes. Lisa, you can be lied to.
OLSON: But Mark, what you're...
DEPAULO: Amazing.
OLSON: ... overlooking is that the lie was not just to the media. If indeed Gary Condit did call Anne Marie Smith, as we were reported, and if indeed he did ask her to sign a false affidavit and tell her in that conversation, this won't come to trial, he's connecting it to this investigation.
GERAGOS: No, he was investigating it to "The Star"...
OLSON: And now...
GERAGOS: ... "The Star" or "The Globe," one of the tabloids...
OLSON: Oh...
KING: OK, we've -- we've passed over that before. Let me get a break, we'll come right back...
OLSON: All the women don't lie.
KING: ... with -- we'll be right back with more. I'm Larry King. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Now with the statements by Joleen McCay, we learned about another woman -- does it mean, Michael Zeldin, that if there is smoke, there is fire, and there is going to be more fire, and usually if you had relationships with two, there will be three, and then four, and then five, and it's all going to come out in the wash?
ZELDIN: Maybe. It may be in this case that what we are discovering is that Gary Condit was a person who had multiple affairs, and that what he was trying to do in the waning hours of the Chandra Levy investigation was to get rid of all evidence of these affairs. I mean, you can picture the conversations he has had to have with his wife about Chandra Levy -- if there are dozens of others, God knows what that would be like.
And so, I think that there is a possibility of more there, but what you need to distinguish in this case is the possibility that he is a person who was a serial adulterer from a person who is a murderer, and that is the leap that I can't make. And in this case...
KING: But since we haven't heard from him, Michael, all we know is so far the adultery.
ZELDIN: Right. We know about the adultery, we know now perhaps why he can't speak, because of this ongoing investigation for obstruction, but we do know one thing, which is I think that we had to set straight -- which is that this woman called his aide and she -- and he said to her in response to her call to him: "Why not let the past be the past?" That is what she said, and he is denying it.
So, I don't think we really want to go too far out on a limb about the he said/she said part of this conversation.
KING: Nancy, has Abbe Lowell served his client well? I know that Mark Geragos has served him great on these programs, couldn't have a better someone -- spokesman than Mark Geragos. But has Abbe Lowell in your opinion as a lawyer served him well?
GRACE: Well, I think the whole strategy has fallen through, but I don't really blame that on Lowell. We have seen Lowell in the past, and he is an excellent lawyer. But remember, the lawyer is basing his or her opinion on what their client tells them. And very often, you will see the client steering the ship.
So, Lowell is out there as a front man, making the best of it, and then you've got Condit. That wasn't Lowell driving the car that night, I can guarantee you that, out of the dump, miles away from his home, throwing out evidence that may or may not be linked to this case. So, long story short, you've got Abbe Lowell doing his best, being a good soldier, and you've got Condit basically sabotaging from within his own camp.
KING: I know lawyers don't like to criticize other lawyers. Mark, how do you rate Abbe Lowell?
GERAGOS: Abbe Lowell, by all accounts, is an extremely sharp lawyer. I was very impressed with him during the impeachment times when he was there, he was -- he did excellent work and everything else. I mean, I just don't second-guess anybody.
KING: But he went public with the lie detector, and some -- many in the criminal law defense said they would not have done that.
GERAGOS: Well, there is two schools of thought on that, I suppose. One is that if he did pass the lie detector and you already knew it, my practice is at that point is to either tell the prosecutor that you've got it, or to just offer the person up to the prosecutor and say, let him take it.
GRACE: Well, I disagree with you on that. I disagree with you on the lie detector portion, because I do find fault with Abbe Lowell there because he led the police on, he held the carrot before them and said, yes we will agree to a police or an FBI polygraph, the whole time planning a private polygraph to release in time for the 5:00 news. That backfired. That was a bad strategy.
GERAGOS: I had said at the time, as you remember, Nancy, that the problem with that was is that the police felt like they had been betrayed, and that is not something that you want to do. I don't know what the reasons for that were, and I'm not going second-guess it, but yes, I agree with you, that is...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Lisa DePaulo...
GERAGOS: You know, the idea -- the polygraph is worth something. I'm telling you, Barry Colvert a very well-respected guy. If you can pass a Barry Colvert polygraph, I'm telling you it's very...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: ... this a guy who is very, very effective.
KING: Lisa DePaulo, is it a stretch now with these reports, that there are suspicions around Condit's wife? That people are referring to the Scott Turow's famous book "Presumed Innocent," a very similar kind of story if you stretch it that far. Turow wrote an op-ed piece saying it was strange to do that. What do you make of this?
DEPAULO: Given the state of mind Chandra was in at the end, where she had just lost her job, she was really, really wanted him to make a commitment to her, the fact that the wife suddenly comes to town, who never comes to town, I think is real relevant, and I think that is something to really, really look at.
Did she come to town -- what was the reason she came to town? And, you know, the friends of Chandra's that I spoke to believe, you know, she really felt that he was going to make that commitment to her, and they don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that she could have called her.
KING: Barbara, is it a stretch to involve the wife?
OLSON: Well, let's not forget that the wife is his alibi for that evening. You know, a staffer took him home at 7:00, and she is his alibi. And she came back in the town, she was in town to visit with Condit just today. So, this is someone who is with her husband, standing next to her husband, and -- because she is his alibi, sure, they are going to look at her.
They are going to see if she had any problems. Did she know any people that might have gone out and done harm to Chandra? That is all relevant, because the police have to follow everything, absolutely.
KING: Michael, what do you want to say? Michael -- and then Mark who just said "wow," so first, Michael.
GERAGOS: I promised that I wouldn't interrupt.
ZELDIN: We know the reason that she came to town -- at least, the purported reason that she came to town was the congressional wives' luncheon, which was previously scheduled, that Laura Bush was to make an appearance at.
That was the reason that she was in town. We know that she came to town a couple times a year, and that this was not inconsistent with that. Whether she had anything to do with this, no one knows. Is she a relevant witness? Absolutely, because she might know stuff about her husband that we don't know. But I don't think it's responsible to go the Scott Turow route with her.
KING: Is she a relevant witness, Mark?
GERAGOS: You know, they interviewed her. This idea that we have now fashioned a whole kind of theory about her being it and doing the presumed innocent thing, it is so to my mind irresponsible, borderline unconscionable to drag this woman into it.
I mean, talk about -- how would you like to be Carolyn Condit? You've been humiliated now nationally and internationally, and now it's not good enough that you have had that, but now you are accused of being a murder suspect on top of it. At a certain point, what are we going to do, bring the kids into it and start accusing the kids?
KING: But what's causing this is, no one on their side comes forward.
GERAGOS: I mean, I've said before, the media strategy I have problems with, but even mafia, you know, saves the women and children, and I would hope that the media would save the women and children here.
KING: All right, we'll be right back with more. We'll start to include your phone calls. This is LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S FATHER: It's pretty tough, but we have a lot of good friends and supporters and good -- good Christians, and Jews, and Muslims, and people of other faiths, and Buddhists, and Sikhs, and Hindus, and some people who believe in other things are really very supportive, and it helps us try to keep faith. We appreciate their support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS")
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Should he resign?
REP. SCOTT MCINNIS (R), COLORADO: Well, in my opinion, he should, yes.
BLITZER: Why? MCINNIS: Well, let me tell you, not so much the situation he may or may not have had with that stewardess, but I think it is unethical, frankly, for a congressman to have a relationship, a sexual relationship with an intern. And I intend tomorrow to go to the Ethics Committee and ask the Ethics Committee to immediately draft a rule to be adopted by the House of Representatives, that makes it very clear that it is unethical for a United States Congressman to have a sexual relationship with an intern.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was Congressman Scott McInnis of Colorado, who later said he liked Gary Condit a great deal in that same interview.
(LAUGHTER)
Barbara Olson, this is not ideologically politically, is it, because Gary Condit, from all I have learned here in California, was very conservative, there was strong rumors he was going to switch to the Republican Party in 1994. Willie Brown and him have been at odds almost since the time he went into the assembly, so you don't -- from your standpoint, this isn't a political thing, is it?
OLSON: Well, I mean, first of all, let me correct that: Gary Condit was a Blue Dog Democrat, and he was considered one of the more powerful Democrats. He is clearly one that the Republicans would go to when we needed Democrat votes.
That said, though, he was actually, you know, he was under the tutelage of Willie Brown until he tried to take Willie Brown out, and then Willie Brown did what he does best, he put him on the back bench.
But I had to laugh at that comment, because, what happens is we have something in Washington, a scandal, and the first thing that Congress wants to do is pass some rule and regulation, the idea that our Congress needs to pass a rule that you can't have sex with your interns is pathetic! I think, when do we how many rules do we need?
KING: Would you agree with that, Mark? You and Barbara will agree, this is history.
GERAGOS: I know! This is monumental. Barbara and I are both laughing at the same time that this bozo is out there saying, we are going to pass a law that you can't have sex with interns! I mean -- people have lost their minds!
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Hold it! Nancy Grace may -- or Nancy, what do you make of that law?
GRACE: Well, I expect there will be a lot of congressmen out of jobs the next morning, if that is unethical. And notice he didn't want to make it illegal, just unethical, so of course, when they all did it, they get a slap on the wrist.
KING: Lisa, what do you make of that?
DEPAULO: I think they should just pass a law that you can't kill the interns. It is ridiculous, if you go back to these two Mikes and all the stuff coming out today. You have to keep in mind that these -- Mike Dayton and Mike Lynch -- were also the ones in the first few weeks and months out there every day telling reporters that this was absurd, that there was no way there was a relationship with this intern, you know, so, one of the questions I would ask now is, you know, were they being lied to by Gary Condit? Or were they -- you know.
OLSON: Michael Dayton -- at least what Lisa says is very important because, Michael Dayton has been with Gary Condit for a very long time.
DEPAULO: Michael Lynch has. Michael Lynch has been for 30 years and Dayton for 12.
OLSON: But Dayton, certainly, he goes back.
DEPAULO: Right.
OLSON: With Joleen McKay, when she picks Gary Condit up in '92 for a fund-raiser, thought she was going to have dinner with Dayton and Condit and some others after the fund-raiser, who walks out but Condit, they have dinner alone, and Miss McKay says, the affair started shortly afterwards. The procuring of women was another sort of very sad deja vu we had of Bill Clinton with the state troopers. Maybe there needs to be a law that your staff can't procure women for you.
DEPAULO: Yes, they can't pimp for you, that's a great idea.
OLSON: I remember Dayton to say, she was my girlfriend.
KING: We'll come right back and start to include your phone calls, as Geragos shakes his head again. I pray, Barbara, you had him for two minutes and lost him again. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Rochester, New York, hello.
CALLER: Hello. Regarding Condit's interviews with police and possible obstruction of justice charges, our lies of omission are as bad as lies of commission? Thank you.
KING: All right, did you agree with -- you don't agree, Mark.
GERAGOS: No, lie for obstruction or a false statement, you have to make the statement. If you don't make the statement or if you even if you parse it, as we learned through the impeachment process, that is not perjury, that is not false statements.
DEPAULO: Hold on, don't...
KING: You want to respond? Go ahead, Lisa.
DEPAULO: Mark, don't you think congressmen should be held to a higher standard than criminal defense attorneys?
GERAGOS: Wait a second. Criminal defense attorneys, Lisa, are out there -- the last vanguard there before the Constitution gets trampled on. You know, when there are people on death row innocent, who are getting released, that is the defense attorneys. When people get arrested falsely here in Los Angeles by a rampart and get freed, those are defense lawyers, so, let's not talk about the morality of defense lawyers as if there's some kind of a lower threshold.
Prosecutors commit just as much injustice, as anybody in this system.
KING: Lisa?
DEPAULO: What I'm saying, you -- I just think you're going on and on about, you know, these lies are OK and lies of omission is all right. And it's OK to lie to the press...
GERAGOS: You are missing the point, Lisa.
DEPAULO: There's...
GRACE: No, I don't think she's missing the point.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: I'm giving you a legal judgment. The caller asks, is that as bad? If you want to make moral judgment, you can make moral judgments. But we are here to talk about the legal judgments.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold on a moment, great.
DEPAULO: Is it --
KING: One at a time.
GRACE: Morally, maybe it is as bad, and Lisa is right, but you are also right legally: you've got to make an affirmative lie before you are held to obstruction of justice. Morally is just as bad.
DEPAULO: Mark, that may be the legal answer, but I think in the throes of a missing woman investigation that is going on for two and a half months that there has to be some moral standards of telling the truth, as well as legal ones.
GERAGOS: Well...
KING: Except the problem would be, Barbara, what do you do with a moral standard if someone breaks it?
OLSON: Well, I mean if someone breaks a moral standard. KING: Yes. If it's not illegal, you can't do anything; right?
OLSON: That is -- as prosecutor.
KING: You can say, it's wrong to lie, ever to lie, but if you lie to the press, that may be wrong, but it ain't illegal.
OLSON: That is right, it is not illegal. However, you don't necessarily -- I'm going to go a little bit way from what Mark was saying -- that you have to actually explicitly have this obstruction. If I say something to you that prevents you from cooperating with an investigation, it is really my intent -- if I know what I'm doing, is to try to get, if I'm the staffer and I'm trying to get Joleen McKay not to come forward, not to cooperate, to impede the investigation of the prosecutors, whatever words I use that affect that, and I know that is what I'm doing, then I am guilty of obstruction. I don't have to say magic words.
GERAGOS: If it has to do with the investigation, if it has to do with it coming out in a tabloid, that is not a crime.
KING: Let Michael Zeldin say something, he hasn't spoken in awhile, Michael.
ZELDIN: Thank you, I -- a couple quick things. First is, there is a difference, as Barbara raises, between obstructing an investigation, and making an affirmative false statement. As a legal matter, they are different, they both can be acted upon legally, and so, the caller's point about lies of omission and lies of commission -- they both can be addressed legally; they're just addressed differently.
And so, if there is, in this case, an affirmative act of interference by Gary Condit or any of his staff, they can be deal with legally. And there is no problem with that; we just have to find the facts before we reach that legal conclusion, and we don't have those facts yet.
KING: We'll be right back with more and more phone calls.
And then Pat Boone, and a tragic story that maybe we can help. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Let's reintroduce our panel. In Ellison Bay, Wisconsin, the former federal prosecutor, Barbara Olson, founder of the Women's Independent Forum. In Los Angeles, defense attorney Mark Geragos. In New York, Nancy Grace, the host of "Trial Heat" on Court TV, Also in New York, Michael Zeldin, six years a defense attorney, former federal prosecutor, former independent counsel. Also in New York, Lisa Depaulo contributing write for "Talk" magazine. Her article will be out August 3.
Back to the calls, West Palm Beach, Florida, hello. CALLER: Hi, Larry. I find it very peculiar Gary Condit's confidence in denying the affair to both the mother and the police just days into Chandra's disappearance when he could not be sure that that person who could prove him wrong, Chandra could remerge at any time off of an Amtrak train or what have you and prove him wrong.
KING: So, in other words why did he deny it? Do you know, Mark?
GERAGOS: My understanding is, is that there was only one question that he didn't answer in the first interview, and that was having to do with the relationship. And he just declined to answer. That he answered every other question, and that...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most important question.
GERAGOS: Well I don't know why that is the most important question. It is beyond me because...
DEPAULO: It is because it is the missing woman and that's who he was closest to, that is who she was closest to.
GERAGOS: Except he gave every other piece of information. He had them in the house and he cooperated completely. I understand that you want to make the connection.
GRACE: It is very important statistically because we all know that most murder victims know their killer, and of course, police always start with the husband or boyfriend or lover and there is a reason for that because more often than not they are involved.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: He talked about her, talked about his relationship, he declined to talk about his just didn't he.
KING: New York City, hello.
CALLER: Good evening, my question is if Chandra had sought out advice from a Rabbi, or a medical professional, are they bound by confidentiality reasons and would not able to help let's say the FBI for example in a profiling situation?
KING: Mark? They can't help, right?
GERAGOS: They are normally are not allowed to breech that confidentiality, and there are exceptions to that.
KING: How about the priest that recently kept secret.
GERAGOS: Exactly. There are certain jurisdictions and it depends on the jurisdiction. I can't tell you in D.C. what the law is there. But there are certain jurisdictions where there are exceptions to that.
KING: Where if a crime might be committed you have to come out. Do you know the distinction, Barbara?
OLSON: Well there is a privilege, certainly for a minister, and the person who is doing the confession and if it is going to be used it would have to be waived by the individual, so if there was some confession by somebody they would have to waive it.
KING: The only time I think what Mark was talking about, there is an imminent danger if someone's about to kill someone, there's something imminently that is going to happen, then there is an exception but it does hold in the District of Columbia.
KING: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, hello.
CALLER: Hi, first, if I may, if Dr. and Mrs. Levy are watching I would like to let them know that they are in my prayers. My question is this is an unresolved case, they can't find her, they don't know what happened to her, can the Levy's actually sue Condit and now maybe even his aides for not telling the truth at the very beginning, you know, maybe hurting the investigation?
KING: Michael Zeldin, they could sue for anything, right?
ZELDIN: Right. I'm trying to think quickly whether there is a civil cause of action. Normally you need, like in the O.J. Simpson case, some sort of wrongful death or injury. And in this case, because there is no evidence linking Congressman Condit to her disappearance, and we have no evidence of damage done because of...
GERAGOS: Trust me, Michael, some lawyer here in California would come up intentional infliction of emotional distress or negligent infliction of emotional distress.
KING: Are you knocking that?
GERAGOS: No, I'm telling you, I believe some lawyer could get creative and would come up with a cause of action.
KING: Let Michael finish.
ZELDIN: Mark, that is fine. But we are trying to deal with the reality or the likelihood of success of such a case and I think that in answer to the question of the caller the likelihood is no, not at this juncture in the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a jury would disagree with him on that.
KING: OK, we will spend some more moments with our panel and then Pat Boone, and his daughter Lindy and Kenneth Copeland will join us to talk about a major occurrence in Pat's life, and a tragedy that maybe can unfold. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Ellijay, Georgia, one more call, hello.
CALLER: Do you think more members of Congress will come forward and pressure Representative Condit to resign and does the panel think that he should now resign.
KING: Lisa?
DEPAULO: Yes, there is going to be a lot more, because you know what, he was kind of the pet. He was both the Democrat but he was the pet of the Republicans, and now he kind of has no strong allies on both sides.
KING: Should he resign, Barbara?
OLSON: Well, I think the members are going to come forward. I agree with Lisa. I think if he were my congressman, I would want him to resign as a constituent. But I think that is up to his constituents. I can't imagine that they are not feeling uneasy now that the second woman has come forward, basically making Anna Marie Smith much more credible, much less of "star" interview as Mark would like to say.
We now have two women saying the same thing. This guy is an odd person to want to represent your interests in the United States Capitol.
GERAGOS: The idea of making Anna Marie Smith more credible I find incredible so I don't agree with you there.
(CROSSTALK)
DEPAULO: The stories fit.
GERAGOS: I don't think that story fits. I don't think that it's (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but going back to the caller's question, are more people going to come out? Yes, because, as I've said before, redistricting is taking place in California, it's going to become a political issue, and the one thing they need to do is they need to get that -- they need get that district redistricted, and the Republicans are going to come out in force.
KING: Yeah, but they might get a moderate conservative who is better for the liberals than Condit was.
GERAGOS: Well, you never know.
KING: You never know.
GERAGOS: You never know. It all depends on how it gets redistricted.
KING: You think more people are going to come out, Michael, more congressmen?
ZELDIN: Well, I think it's becoming easier for them to come out. I always think of these guys as doing things which are easy, and it's sort of easy now. He is down, he can be kicked. As to the question of whether he should resign, I'm not sure what he should resign for. If it's interference with the investigation, my point would be: let's wait a little bit and see. If it's for having an affair, I'm all for all congressmen who have ever had an affair to resign, and I think that would give us a lot of open seats.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Nancy, is there difference when it's discovered, you bring disgrace on the office? Should you resign just for that?
GRACE: Well, I think that it's up to his constituents. I imagine they will vote him out, based on the polls we have been seeing and just common sense, but as far as more Congress people coming out against them, the pack mentality will ensue, they will jump on the ship like drowned rats, they will all be screaming for him to resign, when they need to be in Congress working and let his constituents deal with this.
KING: When does the profile take place? Do we know, Mark?
GERAGOS: This week. This week.
KING: Well, we got only -- there is only one day left.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: They have been saying, they have been saying Friday. That is the day that they have been aiming for.
KING: So, that would mean the FBI would meet with him? Does he go to their offices?
GERAGOS: They can do it wherever they want. They can negotiate that he come to their office, they can go wherever they want him to. They could go to a neutral location if they wanted to.
KING: And does that usually take a long time?
GERAGOS: It can take hours. It can take days. It can be a process that can go for weeks, depending on what information is and what they want to use it...
KING: So, we can guarantee we'll see you all Monday! This goes on and on. Thank you all very much. Barbara Olson in Ellison Bay, Wisconsin -- when do you come home, Barbara?
OLSON: Tomorrow morning at 6:30 a.m.
KING: Mark Geragos back here in Los Angeles, our traveling man; Nancy Grace in New York, the former prosecutor; Michael Zeldin in New York, the former independent counsel; and Lisa DePaulo of "Talk" magazine. Her article -- we are all waiting for that! August 3. She has been on the get-go on this story from the start.
When we come back, Pat Boone, his daughter, a minister and a dilemma. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. Famed entertainer Pat Boone, his daughter Lindy Boone Michaelis, and the famed longtime friend of Pat Boone and founder of the Kenneth Copeland ministries, Kenneth Copeland, one of the more familiar figures on American television. We are here tonight to discuss what might be hopefully the power of prayer involving Pat's grandson and Lindy's son Ryan Corbin. What happened, Pat?
PAT BOONE, ENTERTAINER: It was I think the 19th -- let me see -- of June, over five weeks ago now, Ryan and a buddy of his in an apartment complex, they -- three guys from Pepperdine share an apartment, and they went up to get some sun on the flat roof of this apartment complex, there is a skylight. They know it's there, they have walked around it a number of times -- nothing to protect them, but they know it's over the lobby of a three-story atrium, and his buddy Steve was preceding him off the roof after they had gotten some sun, and he heard a crash.
He doesn't know exactly what happened, but Ryan fell through the skylight and hit a couple of rails on the way down to the floor, almost four stories below. The paramedics picked him up. They were there in just a few minutes. My wife Shirley -- one of the buddies called my wife, and she came in right behind the paramedics. They just had taken him into the ER.
They didn't think he had a chance. Shirley said: "I'm his grandmother, how is he?" And one of them looked at her and said: "Don't get your hopes up." And it has been a fight, a nip and tuck struggle ever since.
KING: Where is he now, what hospital?
BOONE: UCLA. But he has confounded the doctors. They call him their miracle boy right now. He is still in a coma after five weeks. There he is now.
KING: Still in a coma?
BOONE: Yeah.
KING: That's him. Now, that is your son, Lindy, right?
LINDY BOONE MICHAELIS, PAT BOONE'S DAUGHTER: Yes.
KING: Yeah. Is he married?
MICHAELIS: He is engaged.
KING: Engaged.
BOONE: November 17 is wedding date. And his fiancee Stephanie has been right at his side the whole time for five weeks.
KING: And the coma is caused by? Fractured skull?
BOONE: And a broken jaw.
MICHAELIS: Just trauma to his whole body. KING: And what's the prognosis? What do they say?
BOONE: They don't know what to say now. He has exceeded -- and this is why we are here to talk about prayer, because he has been bathed in prayer from the first moments, and tens of thousands have been praying for him.
KING: In Israel, everywhere around the world?
BOONE: In Israel at the Wailing Wall, and Nicky Shapiro (ph), our friend, told me that they are going to be praying for him at the synagogue this weekend.
KING: This weekend in Israel.
BOONE: And the prognosis? He is recovering physically. Against all odds, he is recovering physically.
MICHAELIS: His CAT scan shows severe brain damage.
KING: So, if he were to wake up, he will not...
MICHAELIS: No dead -- no dead brain cells...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: So, if he were to wake up, he would be in what kind -- he would have brain damage?
MICHAELIS: Nobody really knows what to expect until he wakes up.
BOONE: Yeah. Yeah.
KING: Now Kenneth, I know you are very involved in prayer. Pat has written books on prayer, you pray every day of your life, right?
REV. KENNETH COPELAND, KENNETH COPELAND MINISTRIES: Yes, I do.
KING: How do you think prayer can work with regard to someone -- I mean, what's the connection?
COPELAND: Well, when -- prayer is a connection with God, but not only with God personally, but the power of God that is present in the earth, which at the same time is present inside a person like Ron, and Pat, and Lindy, and me -- people of prayer.
What I like to call the technology of prayer is from the viewpoint -- you know, it is not God not answering prayer, that is not where people get in trouble. God wants to answer prayer, and has always gone to his people to answer their prayers. The problem has been in a lack of knowledge of how he works, how to pray.
For instance, a 747 or a computer or that television would have worked 200 years ago just as well as it does today, but nobody knew the technology. God had put it here.
KING: How to get in touch.
COPELAND: How to get in touch. That is an excellent way to say it.
KING: Did you -- did you doubt your faith, Pat when this happened?
BOONE: Never.
KING: Did you doubt your faith?
MICHAELIS: Unbelievably, no.
KING: No?
MICHAELIS: I believe faith for me has been a gift from God.
KING: You don't get angry at the skylight, at the fall, at the...
MICHAELIS: I don't see any point. I just opened up my mind and said: "Lord, talk to me, I need you." And I think he has been this whole entire time.
KING: Do you think prayer has kept him alive, Pat?
BOONE: Oh, no question.
KING: No question in your mind?
BOONE: They are calling him the miracle boy because he has exceeded anything they thought was possible. And, Larry, I told you that when Shirley -- it's tough. When she was at the door of the ER, and the paramedic looked at her and said, "don't get your hopes up, lady," the first thing welled up in her is what Ken is talking about. We know God's will, we know God's word.
She said: "He will not die, he will live, and testify to the glory of God."
She said that over and -- that's a scripture. That's from the 118th Psalm. "He will live and not die." That's the 118th Psalm. And of course, Exodus 15 says, "God says, 'I am Jehovah, who heals your diseases." Jehovah Rafah. And we've all said all our lives, the 23rd Psalm: "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil. Thou art with me."
KING: You're asking for more than life, though. You're asking him to come out of the coma.
BOONE: Yes, sure.
MICHAELIS: And recovery. I want...
KING: We'll be right back with Pat Boone and Lindy Boone Michaelis and Kenneth Copeland, and they may have some requests of you. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
P. BOONE (singing): Yes, Jesus loves me, the Bible tells me so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That little Ryan, Corbin...
BOONE: About 20 years ago.
KING: Who now lies in UCLA Hospital.
What, Kenneth, are you asking viewers to do? You're not asking to send in money.
COPELAND: No.
KING: What are you asking?
COPELAND: Give blood, maybe. Not just for Ryan, but for the whole blood bank.
KING: But what are you asking people to do? Pray?
COPELAND: When Jesus was on the earth, he said any two of you on earth that shall agree as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my father, which is in heaven. So we're just asking people to pray and believe with us, and stand with us, even those that don't know a whole lot about prayer. If they'll just agree with us, this young man will live and not die, and declare the works of God.
KING: You're asking about prayer chains across the country?
BOONE: Yes, it's a phenomenon, it's a wonderful phenomenon, where various ministers, people, churches -- you call one person, or you call two or three people, and they call two or three people, and they call -- and in a matter of moments, in many cases, there are hundreds, eventually thousands of people praying. We know of several ministries that don't know Ryan, and I hardly know, but they've taken Ryan on as their prayer focus. They're fasting for days. Imagine going without food for somebody you never met. Praying earnestly, sometimes through the night.
KING: These things going on around the world, like in Israel. That's amazing.
BOONE: People praying at the Wailing Wall.
MICHAELIS: We tell Ryan. We go into his room and we tell him, honey, people are praying...
KING: Do you talk to him? MICHAELIS: Absolutely. I sing to him, the scripture is being read.
KING: Have you been there, Kenneth?
COPELAND: No, I haven't been there.
BOONE: He flew in just to be here with us today, and is having to fly right back. That's how important it was. But, yes, we -- last night, Debby and I and Lindy were singing "It is Well with My Soul" at Ryan's bedside.
KING: Very sad, though, Pat. I mean, obviously...
BOONE: Well, I moved -- we're so moved because it hurts to see somebody you love go through this, even though we know, as I say, we're not camped in that valley of the shadow of death. We're going through it. And we might as well tell people right now, he's going to be fine. He's going to recover.
MICHAELIS: We have the best doctors and nurses working with him, and we're so grateful to all the people...
KING: And at UCLA, they are amazed that he's...
MICHAELIS: I just have to mention that they -- yes, they've done everything they can do. And they are amazed.
KING: It's hard for you to deal with things like this.
COPELAND: All the time.
KING: Minister to people.
COPELAND: Well, it would be, if there wasn't why I was born. I mean, that's my life, and this is the reason that I believe God...
KING: But you're around sadness a lot.
COPELAND: Well, I'm around a lot of victory, too, because I see people like this come out of it, and walk and talk, and see God give them back to their families.
BOONE: You've seen some very dramatic things, haven't you?
COPELAND: You asked me if I had seen him. I haven't seen him, but I am talking to him, because there's no time nor distance in the realm of the spirit. And my wife and family and I and our prayer team, we talk to him every day.
KING: I -- when I did the book "Powerful Prayers," and we talked to doctors, who were amazed at some people who lived through prayer. They would have given up on them.
BOONE: Oh, yes.
KING: And it's impossible, of course, for medical science to explain that.
BOONE: Yes. I sat on a bedside over in Henderson, Nevada, where -- I'm just a guy, Larry. I've learned a lot from Ken Copeland and what he's learned. We've known each other a long time. But a woman, a nurse asked me to come pray for her mother who had bone cancer so bad that they couldn't turn her over in bed. And when I sat gingerly on the edge of her bed at their request to pray for her, and I did. I sat gingerly. I was afraid that it was going to make things worse. But I prayed for her and even, I dared pray for her recovery.
A year went by and Lindy and her sisters and Shirley and I were appearing in another hotel in Las Vegas. After the show, they called and said there's a couple nuns here from the hospital, and there's a lady with them. They call her their miracle lady, and she wants to meet you. And they gave her name, and I said, "She's here to see my show?" And they said yes, she's recovered completely.
KING: We're asking you, Lindy, to pray for Ryan Corbin, right?
MICHAELIS: Oh, yes. I want as many prayers going out for him.
KING: Thank you for coming, Kenneth. Good to meet you. Watched you for years.
COPELAND: God bless you.
KING: Lindy, we wish you all the best.
MICHAELIS: Thank you.
KING: And Pat...
BOONE: Thanks, Larry.
KING: What can we say?
BOONE: Well...
KING: His name is Ryan Corbin, he's at UCLA Hospital in California. Thanks for joining us. Bill Maher tomorrow night. "CNN TONIGHT" is next. Good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
