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CNN Talkback Live
Would You Read Your Kid's E-Mail?
Aired July 30, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: Want to know what your kids are up to online? Are you dying to play P.I. and track that wayward spouse or lover? New software converts your computer into an open diary, and it's just possible someone is spying on you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would check the history files and see that he had been to singles Web sites, looking at profiles of other women. In some instances, going to porn sites, chatting, instant messaging with other women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Can you keep prying eyes out of your private affairs?
Also, the new guy in town.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I called Hillary and I asked -- my senator first, how she would feel about me coming to Harlem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY LANE, PRESIDENT, EMPOWERMENT ZONE: This is an exciting day for Harlem and all the Harlems of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be some more German tourists here, but that's about it. I don't see anything else. He'll pump iron at the Y with some Negroes and call it a day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Would you want this man to move into your neighborhood?
Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Kyra Phillips in for Bobbie Battista.
We're going to take you now to a news conference. We're talking about the invasion of Code Red, a computer worm aimed at the White House. Let's listen in:
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
RONALD DICK, NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION CENTER: ...use the Internet for communicating important information. Despite our increased reliance on the Internet at home, we increasingly treat computers as another appliance, like the microwave or television set, and the Internet, like normal telephone service.
In other words, we take it for granted, that just as our appliances will be there and function when we want to use them, so will the Internet. But, as you know, computers and the Internet are more complex. The Internet is growing, changing and adapting in ways that we are not even able to predict.
In some sense, it functions like a living organism. And we can -- and we can think of that network as sort of a nervous system and computers as organs that can live, connected to that nervous system, just as people and indeed all living things are vulnerable to malicious activity or the intentional spread of diseases, so are computers.
In some cases, we can protect ourselves. But, others not. And just as in the public health realm, we need to work together to battle new threats as they emerge. I am putting forth this health analogy to illustrate the point that network security and computer functioning need to be constantly monitored and maintained just like our own health. But in some way, it falls short of describing the potential spread of computer worms, such as Code Red.
Unlike personal health, where contact among infected persons is usually necessary to spread a virus. On the Internet, we are all connected. A small number of users who are infected with the Code Red worm can infect thousands or indeed million vulnerable to users, even thousands of miles away. On top of that, someone has purposely spread this worm, and is trying to infect others.
Code Red is the latest in a series of worms used to intact computer systems in order to launch distributed analysis service attacks. In such attacks, the victim computers are being used without the operator's knowledge to flood a Web site and overload it. We're taking this worm most seriously, due to its ability to proliferate at a dramatic rate.
The worm was reported in mid-July. Thereafter, several warning notices were issued. On July 19th, alone, the Code Red worm infected more than 250,000 systems in just nine hours. One security firm estimates that the Code Red can attempt to infect up to one half, a million IP or Internet Protocol addresses in a day.
The worm exploits a vulnerability on Microsoft Internet Information Systems' versions 4.0 and 5.0. Running on Windows NT-4 and Windows 2000 Operating Systems. In simpler terms, many people have this Web server product on their personal or business machines. Machines using Windows 95, 98, or Millennium Addition operating systems are not affected.
In the last round of attacks, the worm sought out and infected unpatched systems. In turn, the victim systems launched, distributed, denial a service attacks on July 19th, a date that was programmed into the worm. We have indications that a tiny percentage of the infected machines or that a tiny percentage of infected machines are scanning the Internet now, in search of new victims.
Based on analysis of the worm, there will be a tremendous surge in the worm, and the scanning of vulnerable systems starting on July 31st at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time will begin again. There is reason for concern that the mass traffic associated with the worms' propagation could degrade the overall functioning of the Internet and impact ordinary users.
PHILLIPS: OK. How do we take all of that technical jargon and put it into easy conversation? For that, we bring in Daniel Seiberg. He's going to talk more about Code Red. He's our scientist technology editor at cnn.com. Thank you so much for being with us.
DANIEL SEIBERG, CNN.COM TECHNOLOGY EDITOR: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Is there a simple way to put what the heck this means to you and me when logging onto our computer?
SEIBERG: Right. The simplest ways, first of all, is it will not affect most home users' computers. There's a set of circumstances that have to be in place, before this will affect somebody's computer. It's mostly businesses and corporations and that sort of thing that will be susceptible to this type of worm.
What they are concerned about, is that it sends itself out, unlike what most people think of with a virus, when you get it in your e-mail or your outlook and you click on the attachment, and they tell you never to open up your attachments. This is not like that. This is a worm, which sends itself out.
It doesn't need you to interact with it. It starts to send itself out to computers all around the world, and it's going to essentially jam up the Internet. Think of it like a traffic jam on the Internet. It's looking for more computers to send itself out to. That will degrade the performance of the Web. People who are searching their favorite site, for example, will not be able to access it. It will jam it up for as long as it will send itself out, which is a period of about three weeks.
PHILLIPS: All systems? It will jam up all systems?
SEIBERG: Any system that it can get into, and it will try to find these systems that it wants, and that's what it will jam up with. Once it finds this computer that it can get into to, it will infect it, and then use it to send itself out again. So it's almost sort of going to expand exponentially, once it gets in to some infected computers.
PHILLIPS: At the news conference, they say to expect this tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. How will they know that it will happen at exactly 8:00 p.m.? The problem will emerge?
SEIBERG: Right, it actually came out the first time a couple of weeks ago, and it has a certain cycle that it goes through, this type of worm, it starts off with a certain pattern of sending itself out. Then for the latter portion of it, it actually attacks the Web site of the White House. That's part of what this worm does.
And right now, it's just starting to wake up again, essentially. So as of Tuesday night or Wednesday, the first of the month, it will start to send out. That's what they're concerned about. That's why these warnings are coming out.
PHILLIPS: What about -- you talk about that it will affect the corporations, so does that mean that it would affect me as a consumer?
SEIBERG: It will. What it could do is, first of all, it could stop you from going to your favorite site, or it could stop you from buying something on the Internet, if it's jammed up, it's slow, your favorite site is not working. So it will affect e-commerce, depending on where you are surfing on the Web.
It really could weigh down the Internet, depending on how many times that it's able to send itself out. It could quite -- be a real hassle. More of an inconvenience. It doesn't delete anything on somebody's computer. You know, it's not as dangerous as...
PHILLIPS: But we don't like to be inconvenienced.
SEIBERG: No. Nobody likes to be inconvenienced.
Certainly not on the Internet, which people think of as being so convenient. And they are still very concerned about that, too.
PHILLIPS: All right, Daniel Seiberg, and if we want to find out more, log on to cnn.com.
SEIBERG: Go to cnn.com, we have a story about that today. And some places you can go and look for a patch as well.
PHILLIPS: All right, terrific. We will take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
We are going to continue to talk about the Internet. First it was the Red Code worm and now we are going to move into this question: would you ever use the Internet to snoop or spy on a loved one? Who would be your top list of candidates, whether it'd be a loved one or a friend? Think about it for a minute.
Because CNN technology correspondent Ann Kellan will explain how a very unique software can help you do that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was actually getting concerned, because he was talking with women on the phone, and I really wanted to know, you know, what was going on.
KELLAN (voice-over): She's hiding her identity, because her live-in boyfriend doesn't know she's spying on him. They met on the Internet. Now, she's afraid he's gone back to the Web to flirt with other women.
That's when she installed software called Spector on her computer. The software can be installed so it's difficult to detect, and takes snapshots of the computer screen, as many as one a second. She monitors his Web surfing, his e-mail, online chats.
(on camera): Would you want him to be doing that with you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I noticed that employees were closing windows on computers when I walked into the room.
ANN KELLAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This store owner also installed Spector on his company computer, and caught some employees surfing instead of working.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The time they were supposed to be working in the store, they were actually trying to hack into our accounting system to see what our revenues were, see what we were making.
KELLAN: And what he's finding out about some of his employees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's scary in what you find out sometimes, it's things you probably don't want to know, wish you didn't know.
KELLAN: Like bank account statements and passwords, he says he purposely ignores.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The program does record e-mail addresses and passwords.
KELLAN (on camera): So, you would know their e-mail password with this software?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes.
KELLAN (voice-over): Does this software violate privacy laws? In this case, attorney Mark Rasch says probably not, because he told his employees they were going to be monitored when they were hired.
MARK RASCH, INTERNET LAWYER: That's why most companies have a policy that say if you use our computers, you consent to our monitoring.
KELLAN: But what about spying on your boyfriend?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I feel like this is my computer, I purchased it, and it's my right to know what goes on.
KELLAN: According to Rasch, even if it's your computer, if another person using it doesn't know he's being watched, you could be breaking the law.
RASCH: The federal law doesn't say that you have a right to monitor anybody's communication, if they happen to be using your telephone or your computer. Basically, you need to have the consent of one of the parties to the communication.
KELLAN: And in some cases, state laws could be even more restrictive, for example, requiring both parties to consent. SpectorSoft owner Doug Fowler says his company's licensing policy is clear.
DOUG FOWLER, CEO, SPECTORSOFT: According to our licensing agreement, they should inform anybody who's going to use that computer.
KELLAN: For one Spector user, the peace of mind is worth the risk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, it's actually been a good thing to help me build my trust for him.
Ann Kellan, CNN, Atlanta
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk a little bit more about this and meet our guests. Donna Rice Hughes, spokeswoman for familyclick.com. And author of "Kids Online: Protecting Your Children in Cyberspace."
And Judy Kuriansky, also known as Dr. Judy. She's a psychologist and author for "The Complete Idiot's Guide to a Healthy Relationship." There's a talking point right there.
Ladies, thank you for joining us.
JUDY KURIANSKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: We just heard, Kyra, that this woman was saying that it's helping her trust in the relationship! Oh, my goodness. It's going to destroy the trust in that relationship as soon as that guy finds out what she is cyber-snooping about.
PHILLIPS: All right, before we moved into our spouse or our boyfriend, girlfriend or whatever -- Dr. Judy, are you telling me that you would not read your kid's e-mail ever?
KURIANSKY: I do not recommend that people read their kids' e- mail. It is the most important thing for parents to develop trust with their kids. You could do that lots of other ways than to go on and snooping on them. It's like reading their diary. A young girl would be horrified to know that her mother was snooping into her diaries or private writings.
If you have developed trust with your kids, given them guidelines, it's not necessary for you to go with binoculars like one woman did outside the door trying to see what her daughter was typing on her computer.
PHILLIPS: Donna, what do you think? Would you read your kids' e-mail?
DONNA RICE HUGHES, AUTHOR, "KIDS ONLINE": I wouldn't just intrude into their privacy and read their e-mail. But I think that it's very important that parents extend their parenting role on-line and e-mail and the Internet is very different than a diary. And oftentimes you can set up appropriate rules that that child can still get in trouble.
Because, for instance, pedophiles work very much like that computer worm. They disguise themselves and they're looking for vulnerable victims. So is the pornographer. So I think if parents would simply set up the rules and then let their kids know that they will be monitoring them, that that's an important way to go.
KURIANSKY: You know, you can't equate snooping on kids in general with the fact that there are pedophiles. No one who is listening and watching now is going to say that there isn't a serious problem with kids having predators on the Internet and we -- one girl wrote this incredible book about...
PHILLIPS: Dr. Judy, hold that thought.
KURIANSKY: She was seduced.
PHILLIPS: We will take a quick break. Hold that thought. Hold that thought. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
We got an e-mail here from Point Oregon, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he says "If my child had betrayed my trust in the past, I would use this monitoring software, but I would let them know that I was using it, if I wanted them to be responsible and honest, I have to set an example of being honest with them."
Let's get back into our discussion. Dr. Judy, I...
KURIANSKY: I totally agree with that. It's a wonderful point. The whole idea is to establish trust with your kids. Kids need to know that they have your trust in them. That they can take responsibility.
So the way you do that, just as this guy said, is you lay out the laws in saying, if there's a problem, then I may have to intervene. But other than that, let me involve you and instruct you and educate you on what the potential dangers are and what the rules and what the limits are. And then if you have a problem, you come to me and I will help you.
PHILLIPS: Donna, you agree with that, right? Because in your book, you talk about specifically how to set up those rules. Tell us.
HUGHES: Yes, absolutely. You have to have those rules in place, and if you look at safety rules and monitoring, that's part of your offensive as far as making sure that your kids are safe online. Then you also have to have a defensive strategy, and that would be where the filtering tools would come in, or for instance, anti-virus software.
But I would never recommend that a parent spy on their child and not let them know. I think if a parent feels that they have to look over a child's shoulder because they haven't been trustworthy, that they let them know that from time to time they will be monitoring their online activities.
KURIANSKY: I think that's only if there's proof that the child has in fact had a problem or is some kind of behavioral problem in another way. But not...
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Well, Dr. Judy Kuriansky...
(CROSSTALK)
KURIANSKY: ... from the starting...
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Sometimes you don't need proof. I mean, I can tell you...
HUGHES: That's right.
PHILLIPS: ... I can tell you my mom thought I was an angel and I was doing a lot of things behind her back. Let's be honest here, OK?
HUGHES: That's right. Any parent knows that kids don't always follow the rules.
KURIANSKY: Well...
HUGHES: And oftentimes, if a child has a problem, they're not going to come to you necessarily. But it's very important that you do establish that trust, because hopefully, if they do, they will, but that's not always the case.
KURIANSKY: Well, that's kind of saying you don't know when I'm going to be spying on you is just as bad as doing the spying.
HUGHES: No, I think that you have to be honest...
(CROSSTALK)
KURIANSKY: ... if a child has any sense of privacy whatsoever.
HUGHES: We already know that monitoring...
(CROSSTALK)
KURIANSKY: ... looking in at any time.
HUGHES: That's right. That helps set up a deterrent, because if someone knows that you're going to be checking up on them from time to time, then oftentimes that will deter behavior that would be inappropriate.
KURIANSKY: Checking up on time to time is just the same as saying, I might be looking in any time. And it inhibits that sense of trust and the privacy and confidentiality that I have been talking about.
HUGHES: Well, look, if you have to set up a curfew for your child to come in at 10 o'clock at night, but you're in bed and you're never monitoring that, you know, what kind of accountability structure is there?
KURIANSKY: That's entirely -- that's entirely different. If you set up a curfew, you say, you'll be in 10:00. You don't check before -- you check when they don't come in at 10:00. Then it becomes a problem.
HUGHES: Well, that's right.
KURIANSKY: It's the same thing here.
PHILLIPS: Are you both moms?
HUGHES: No, no, it's not the same thing. Yes.
PHILLIPS: You are both -- Dr. Judy, are you a mom, too?
KURIANSKY: I'm not a mom, but I take care of lots of kids and I've been dealing with kids for 20 years and I teach kids as a professor. So I've been teaching kids and dealing with kids and recommending kids and working with kids from childhood up to college age for 25 years of my career. I was, in fact, trained to work with kids when I was working at Columbia Medical Center.
PHILLIPS: All right, we've got...
(CROSSTALK)
HUGHES: ... you child would be like not making sure that they came in at 10 o'clock.
PHILLIPS: All right, we've got a lot of moms in the audience, ladies. Here we go. Georgianna has a question. Go ahead.
GEORGIANNA: Well, I don't have a question. I have a comment as a parent of a 13-year-old and an 18-year-old. I have done my job as raising leaders and not followers. My kids know right from wrong. I trust them.
And my mother read some of my letters when I was in high school and I have never forgotten. It was teenage stuff.
KURIANSKY: Well...
GEORGIANNA: I don't want to know that stuff.
KURIANSKY: You know, good for that mom. Bless you, because I think she's saying the two things that are absolutely common that I have heard for years and years from parents. If you set them up with the kind of values that you're going to believe in and that you know that you can -- that they can believe in, then you won't have to worry about this. And second of all, just as this mom said, one mistake of snooping in their stuff, as I've heard from thousands of kids over the years, and they never forgive a "good parent." It sticks in their head, and they don't -- they don't trust people in general.
PHILLIPS: Kyle is on the phone.
HUGHES: Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Yes, go ahead. Go ahead, Donna.
HUGHES: Yeah, I just wanted to make a point here. Monitoring, effective monitoring involves much more than e-mail. I think that's looking to see where your children are going online, making sure that they are safe, they haven't gotten tricked into being in a pornography site, and that you know who their online friends and activities are. But that comes with communication, but again I think monitoring is appropriate.
PHILLIPS: Kyle, Kyle...
KURIANSKY: I disagree. I think you do that ahead of time. You sit down with your child just as you do...
(CROSSTALK)
... with anything else and you say: Look, here are the problems. Just as you try to train them not to be picked up by some perpetrator who is going to victimize them in the street, you said: Here are the potential problems that can happen. Let's go online together and let's see where the good and bad places are.
PHILLIPS: All right, we have Kyle...
KURIANSKY: Let's take a look...
PHILLIPS: We have Kyle. We have a child actually on the phone. Kyle -- I'm not sure how old you are -- from Michigan, go ahead. What do you think of all this, Kyle?
KYLE: I'm 15 years old, and I feel that if my parents were spying on me, that I would become even more, you know, protective and I wouldn't tell them as much as I tell them now. And I don't... KURIANSKY: Bingo.
KYLE: ... do bad things now. But like, I know a lot more about the computer than my parents do. And I feel that, you know, if they put on stuff that I feel that I could take it off, because they don't know as much about the computer as I do, and I feel that's the way in a lot of houses.
PHILLIPS: That's kind of true. A lot of parents aren't very computer-savvy, Donna, right?
KURIANSKY: Right.
HUGHES: That's absolutely right. But we do know that filtering and monitoring tools can be very effective. They can set up that offensive and the defensive line, if you will, to help keep your kids safe. And unfortunately, not all kids are going to obey the rules.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's go to another member of our audience. David, go ahead.
DAVID: I make a distinction between looking in a diary, which I would not do, because that's a one-on-one relationship...
HUGHES: Right.
DAVID: ... as opposed to setting up some type of mechanism in the computer to snoop, if you'll use that term, because I fear they may be a third party out there, some sexual pervert that might be trailing one of my daughters. I think of Chandra Levy. Maybe if something like that was set up in her room, although her parents were far away from her, a disappearance might have been prevented.
PHILLIPS: David, brings up an interesting point. I mean, the FBI, what are they looking at? Her computer. What sites she brought up. What she was logging onto. It's an interesting...
KURIANSKY: I think it's very, very sweet that parents like David would be concerned about their kids' safety with regard to this. This is the reason we have cybercops, whether or not you agree that they're effective and their job to do that kind of thing. I think the danger there is using the concern for their safety, which is highly valid and appreciable as a parent, for an excuse to be able to cybersnoop on them.
PHILLIPS: We have comments coming through in our computer. Kirk, what do we have?
KIRK: We have one comment that said, if you keep the monitor in the living room where you can watch your kids and you're including them in the process, it's easier to keep an eye on them as well. So it's not something they're doing off in secret.
PHILLIPS: It sounds fair. They're the parents. The kids are living in the home. Who pays for the computer? The parent pays for the computer, they should be able to set the rules and say, OK, this is what we're going to do, right?
KURIANSKY: Well, setting the rules...
HUGHES: Absolutely.
KURIANSKY: ... is different than snooping. And the point is the parents pay for the phone too. Are you picking up the phone and listening in on all the conversations that your kids are using? I don't think so.
HUGHES: I think that there's a delicate balance between not invading your child's privacy but yet having good safety rules in place and checking up on them from time to time. And there are a lot of offensive strategies, like keeping the computer in a public area, but also perhaps having a monitoring software product like a predator guard that can actually show you -- and you can tell your kid, I'm going to be looking at a report to find out the kinds of sites that you're going to. But I think you have to lay it out ahead of time so that the spying factor is not even a factor.
KURIANSKY: You know, I disagree with you there, because I think that -- let's make a distinction, the age of the children here, too. So if we're talking about teenagers, rather than you saying what you just said, Donna, that I'm going to be going on your computer and finding out whether or not you're going on dangerous sites, I would say, sit down with your kids and say: Here are the ways that you can find out if you happen to be vulnerable to those spots, let's go on them together and you can see them and watch them now.
PHILLIPS: On the phone from North Carolina, Al, a private investigator. How apropos. Al, what do you think?
AL: Well, listen, I think the professor and any of those parents who think that just telling your kid to do something and to do the right thing is being very naive. When you're talking about the Internet, there's just so many cases of kids who were tricked into going and running off and having a rendezvous with somebody, and the parents were shocked because they were honorable kids, they knew right from wrong and all this.
It is very dangerous. The Internet is dangerous.
(CROSSTALK)
And listen, it's not spying if you tell the kids that you have this monitoring on the computer. That's not spying, because they know.
KURIANSKY: Monitoring and snooping...
(CROSSTALK)
... is not the same as what you -- what you as a private detective are talking about in terms of kids then taking the message and going flying off to a foreign country to go meet somebody. That's a whole other step in there that requires... HUGHES: Well, no, typically...
KURIANSKY: ... different action on the part of the parent. And I totally agree with: It's like telling little kids these are the things you should not respond to when somebody comes to you in the street. These are good and bad touches, these are good and bad people. Same thing on the Internet, and you're certainly not going to let your kid go flying off to a foreign city to go meet somebody.
HUGHES: Well, oftentimes, when a kid does fly off and meet a pedophile, they've had a long period of time of e-mail correspondence that often started in a chat room or through instant messaging. We already know that. The stats show us that.
So I think if you set those rules up, you say it really is about parenting online. It's not about spying. And as long as you let them know ahead of time, it helps steer the child to actually obey the safety rules, but you've got a safeguard in place. But again, you have to have filtering as well. And that's really your defensive strategy, because we already know that most kids that go to porn sites are actually tricked into going to them.
You can type in boys or toys or dolls or any other sort of thing, and get to a site like that. And parents oftentimes just simply don't know the dangers and oftentimes kids do.
PHILLIPS: Donna Rice Hughes, Dr. Judy, thank you both so much for joining us today. Hot topic. No doubt we will have you back again talking about the same thing. Thank you, ladies, very much.
Up next, the changing face of Harlem. We'll be right back.
According to a report released by the watchdog agency The Privacy Foundation, e-mail and Web surfing by more than a third of the online U.S. work force is regularly monitored by employers. The study estimates 14 million employees are under constant surveillance.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: And welcome back again to TALKBACK LIVE. We're going to switch gears and talk about former President Clinton and Harlem. You can only imagine the reception that the former president received when he arrived in Harlem this morning. Mr. Clinton opened up shop and told his neighbors he's home.
Joining us now in New York is CNN correspondent Maria Hinojosa. She has been covering the entire celebration and controversy.
Maria, hello. How are you?
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra. Well, yeah, things are beginning to turn back into normal here for Harlem after a day that's been really quite special for a lot of people here, though it has not gone on without controversy.
The president did speak, and even though while he was speaking there was a slow, small drone of people who were criticizing him and raising questions about what is he really here to do.
The president said that he wanted to -- the former president said he wanted to come to Harlem to help be a part of this community, to be a good neighbor. He did say that he was very happy that property prices are going up in Harlem, but that he hoped that his presence here would not get other people out of Harlem.
There has been a lot of concern about the fact that his arrival here might, in fact, make it more difficult for local businesses to stay here, make it difficult for small businesses to open shop.
Along 125th Street, where the former president will be opening his office today, right off of 5th Avenue, this is a neighborhood that really for many years didn't even have a bank on its major thoroughfare. Now in the past several years, you have a Disney store, you have major stores up and down the aisle, the Magic Johnson Theaters, so Starbucks -- things that you really just 10 years ago would not have necessarily imagined would have been happening here in Harlem. But then again, 10 years ago, people wouldn't have imagined that a former president would be opening up his offices here in the heart of Harlem.
Now, several people came from far away, including Luther Brewster, who came all the way from Brooklyn. He's a businessman. He came here precisely to see what the president had to say.
Luther Brewster, were you pleased with the comments from the president?
LUTHER BREWSTER, BUSINESSMAN: Well, actually I was very impressed. I applaud him for addressing the issue of the small businessmen directly, and I also applaud people of Harlem, because you know, you have to have somebody who looks out for the best interests of Harlem. And so even though there is some apprehension right now, I think all in all he, by addressing the issue directly, made a lot of people feel good about the fact that small business won't be hurt, and that, you know, if anything, you can see it as an opportunity.
HINOJOSA: Now the former president also said that he hoped that this would go beyond, his presence in an urban community would go beyond just Harlem. Is that what you're thinking, that by him being in an urban community and an African-American community, that perhaps the issues that exist in those communities across the country might also come more into focus?
BREWSTER: Yeah, I think so. I think you know, the opportunities that will present themselves here in Harlem, maybe hopefully, you know, we can see some things consistent to that in other places: you know, California, Houston, Texas. All of these areas, you know, need the opportunity that Harlem is about to get. And I think Harlem is a great start. It's like Mecca of the black, you know, movement. It's the Harlem Renaissance. It's Harlem.
Harlem is the place that I think a lot of cities should look to as an example of what can be done elsewhere. HINOJOSA: And that's exactly what the former president said that he wants to try to do. But already, people are demanding for a community meeting with the former president, and already protesters are saying that they want to keep one of the Harlem marts that is locally owned open. There have been claims that those people are going to be moved out. So it's going to be some rough-going, at least for a while, here in Harlem.
Reporting live, Maria Hinojosa. Back to you in the studio, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Thanks so much, Maria.
Well, we're going to talk more about this now.
Steve Malzberg, a radio talk-show host on WABC and columnist for Newsmax.com, and Peter Noel, a staff reporter covering race, crime and black activist politics for "The Village Voice." They join us. But before we start, gentlemen, we want to listen to what the former president had to say today in Harlem real quickly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now I feel like I'm home. Thank you very much. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: In 1992, I came to Harlem and I said, if you vote for me, I'll turn this economy around...
(APPLAUSE)
... and I'll create empowerment zones for poor communities that have been left behind. And we turned the economy around, created the empowerment zone: $600 million in private investment later in the Harlem empowerment zone...
(APPLAUSE)
Employment cut in half, welfare cut in half, record amounts of investment in new police on the street, new housing, new transportation. I think I kept my word to Harlem, and the best is yet to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: His word to Harlem. OK, Peter, you live in Harlem. What do you think?
PETER NOEL, "VILLAGE VOICE": I live four blocks away from 125th Street, and you know, I have mixed feelings about Bill coming in. You know, there was a sign today by some people, the one guy was holding up a sign that said: Give us your tired, homeless white trash. And he's welcoming Bill. Then again, there was another woman who was arguing with him, saying, look, the president coming here is only going to uplift Harlem, going uplift our lives, improve the quality of life for Harlemites. And to some extent, that's true.
Again, but there are other people being pushed out. A two- bedroom apartment in Harlem now is $1,500, and the landlords, who are black, are telling me it's because of Bill Clinton, the whites (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
PHILLIPS: Steve, is this -- is this symbolic or is Clinton for real here?
STEVE MALZBERG, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: This is so symbolic. I mean, this is the most transparent man I've ever seen.
First of all, this was his second choice, and I think that should be pointed out in every conversation, in every newscast talking about this move. He wanted to go to Carnegie Towers. He wanted to be in the middle of Manhattan on 57th Street. But the public found out it would cost too much money. They weren't -- they wouldn't stand for it. He didn't get the funds approved from Washington.
So then he decided: Hey, how about a publicity stunt? Let's do Harlem.
So he's in Harlem now. It's a place that he knows he could be treated like a king no matter what wrong he does. Why it is that the minority community, the African-American community accepts this man -- and I'm not saying all of them. Of course not, because no -- no community or no religion or no group or no ethnicity thinks alike. But the overwhelming majority of African-Americans in this country worship Bill Clinton. And why I'll never know.
But it's disingenuous. Bill Clinton has always been a good race- baiter. He came to New York when David Dinkins was running for re- election against Rudy Giuliani. David Dinkins had already beat Giuliani once, and he scolded white voters here: You have to learn how to vote for a black man. Well, they did, they do. It's the black vote in New York that went overwhelmingly 90 percent-plus for Dinkins.
When Fort Bragg, North Carolina, there were swastikas painted on the barracks of the elite black troops, while the top suspect was a black soldier himself, Clinton exploited it and said, we must not have this kind of prejudice, racial division. He knew it was a black soldier. In fact, it turned out to be a black soldier.
Bill Clinton is a race baiter. He's been a great -- he plays the race card better than anybody I've ever seen, and this is just an extension of it, I believe.
NOEL: I don't think...
PHILLIPS: Gentlemen, we're going to continue in just a moment. Hold your thoughts. No doubt this is going to get very intense. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Since Bill Clinton announced his intention to move his office space into Harlem, most of the commercial rents on 125th, between Park and St. Nicholas Avenues, have gone up 45 percent a square foot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: And welcome back. We are talking about Clinton moving to Harlem, and this conversation just a-getting a-going. Steve Malzberg of WABC, radio talk-show host, obviously not too thrilled with this move by Clinton, think it's pretty symbolic, and that this man is pretty good at playing the race card. We've got Peter Noel from "The Village Voice" just about to respond to that criticism.
Go ahead, Peter.
NOEL: Look, I don't think Bill Clinton was playing the race card at all. I mean, look, Harlem became his refuge because black folks are always willing to forgive and accept people, you know, who said, look, I've done something wrong. And I guess with all of our churches and the type of community that we are, Bill Clinton could find some sort of refuge.
Harlem (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we should welcome him, that type of person, yes. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), when he comes, a lot of things might change.
Look, on the blocks, there are more police protection that wasn't there before. You have people actually opening businesses, and some businesses are closing, smaller ones.
All we are saying to the president -- I'm talking as a Harlem resident -- all we are saying to him is that when you come in, don't try to be our mayor, just listen to some of the issues that we have, some of the concerns, and you can actually take this to the powers that be.
I believe with a new administration in the city, getting away from Rudy Giuliani, who was hostile to the people of Harlem, talking to Bill Clinton, things will change in Harlem: not because he's -- not because he's race-baiting. Bill Clinton has done a lot of things that we are upset about. Look, we were expecting him to sign a bill outlawing racial profiling. He didn't do that for us. A lot of things he hasn't done. But we welcome him and we think he should be here.
PHILLIPS: Peter, let me ask you a question as an African- American -- and I hope I'm not stepping over the line by asking this -- does it bother you at all -- you talked about more police presence, improvements in the community. Does it bother you at all that it's a white man that has brought these upgrades?
NOEL: Look, you know, we talked about the fact that -- about the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) coming into the village. You know, I mean, that has happened. And I -- I -- anyone who can bring that type of protection for us -- I'm sure Rudy Giuliani right now is very upset about the fact that he has to provide, you know, this security for Bill Clinton. Rudy Giuliani doesn't provide security for African-Americans in Harlem. Pretty much our kids are stopped in the streets and frisked. So with Bill Clinton coming in and providing this kind of security for us, we will welcome that.
I don't care who it is.
MALZBERG: Well, Kyra, this is a whole other issue, which I know you don't want to go into. But Rudy Giuliani...
(CROSSTALK)
... Rudy Giuliani has...
NOEL: ... Bill Clinton. So why not?
MALZBERG: Rudy Giuliani has done a fantastic job. And you know what? He talks about extra police needed in Harlem. Crime is down all over this fine city, especially...
(CROSSTALK)
... especially -- not because of Bill Clinton...
(CROSSTALK)
No, because of Mayor Giuliani and the police force. Especially in the minority communities, murders under David Dinkins used to be over 2,000 a year. It's down to 600.
NOEL: Some of the most vicious crimes occurred under Rudy's watch, as he's leaving.
MALZBERG: Oh, come on.
(CROSSTALK)
NOEL: ... crime has stopped in African-American communities because of African-Americans, because of people coming out and saying...
MALZBERG: Oh, not the police.
NOEL: ... you need to stop the killing, you need to stop the robbing, because you're destroying your own community. Not because of Rudy Giuliani, who is enforcing his goon squads on African-Americans.
MALZBERG: Oh, goon squads. OK, we have another issue, I know you don't want to get into that...
NOEL: Goon squads.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's go to a phone call. How about that, guys?
Edith -- Edith is on the phone from the Bronx. Go ahead, Edith. EDITH: Hello?
PHILLIPS: Hi there. What's your question or your comment?
EDITH: My comment is the first man that was talking about Clinton -- he called him a race-baiter...
PHILLIPS: Yes, ma'am.
EDITH: ... he's not a race-baiter, he's a good man. If he wanted to move to Harlem, that's his business. And he also lied when he said the people would not pay for the office. Of course, tax people didn't want to pay for it...
MALZBERG: No, I didn't say that. I said they weren't going to pay for...
EDITH: I'm talking. You wait until I finish. OK?
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Oh, boy. Go ahead, Edith.
Now, Charlie Rangel invited him to Harlem. He didn't just say, I'll move to Harlem. And he accepted. We're glad he's in Harlem. I love him. And nothing you can is going to ever change my mind.
He's not the first man that had an affair. I wouldn't doubt if you're not having one.
MALZBERG: And the sad point is the black community, nothing he could do will change the minds of the overwhelming majority of the black community: no matter what crimes he's committed, no matter how he's disgraced himself, this country and the office of the presidency. And that boggles my mind. I just don't get it.
NOEL: You know something, I think Steve wants Rudy Giuliani -- Steve wants Rudy Giuliani to be treated like how Rudy -- no, he wants Bill Clinton to be treated like how Rudy Giuliani treated Yasser Arafat when he came to this city. And I don't think that's going to happen. Black folks would stand in his way.
PHILLIPS: Gentlemen, we're going to take a look at the online vote right after this break. Don't go away.
Winzle "Wimp" Clayton, owner of Wimp's Bakery, has spent the past four days baking a giant cake in celebration of Bill Clinton's move into his Harlem office space. The cake will feed about 1,000 people and will say: "Welcome to Harlem. We knew you were coming, so we baked a cake."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: All right. We're going to check in on our online viewer vote: Would you want former President Bill Clinton for a neighbor? Chris, what do we have?
CHRIS: Kyra, the answer to that is 57 percent say yes and 43 percent say no.
PHILLIPS: There you have it. All right.
Steve, Peter, let's bring you guys back in here and talk a little bit about this first black president. I've read this in almost every magazine. OK, you both laugh.
MALZBERG: Well, I believe -- I believe Toni Morrison first called him that, and he referred to himself as the first black president.
NOEL: And I resent that.
MALZBERG: Good, I'm glad to hear that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Why do you -- why do you resent it, Peter? I mean, go ahead.
NOEL: Look, if he was the first black president, people, not just black activists, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) college students have been calling on the president for a long time to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) an apology for slavery. Let's talk about reparations for block folk. He doesn't want to hear anything about this issue. Why hasn't he signed this bill outlawing racial profiling?
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) that we want to talk about. Then we'll make him the first black president.
MALZBERG: I'll tell you why he doesn't sign racial profiling, because when he was governor of Arkansas, he threatened to defy a judge's order which demanded he stop racial profiling of Hispanics. And you never hear that in the media.
NOEL: Well, we agree on that. We agree on that.
MALZBERG: See, we agree.
PHILLIPS: You know, what's interesting, you guys agree on this. You bring up these comments. Yet, look at all the people that turn out. I mean, this guy is mobbed everywhere he goes. Why -- what is it?
MALZBERG: He's a rock star. He's a rock star.
NOEL: Again, like I say...
PHILLIPS: He doesn't sing. He plays the sax. Come on, Steve.
NOEL: Because he is a symbol of fairness to the African-American community. He's a -- that's what it is, because you have the right wing in this country who pretty much wanted to destroy him. And again, coming into the African-American community, you get forgiveness. We always provide this refuge for you.
MALZBERG: Well, I...
NOEL: We have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Harlem, and he's welcome any time to kneel and pray, and to, you know, be forgiving of his sins. Come on, Bill.
MALZBERG: And by the way, write this down: Hillary Clinton will be on a presidential ticket in 2004. Whether it's a Democratic ticket, top or bottom, or an independent party ticket, top or bottom, with John McCain. And that's another strategic reason why Bill Clinton landed in Harlem.
PHILLIPS: Interesting connection. Lois on the phone from Alabama. What's your question or comment?
LOIS: I'd like to say that I wouldn't mind him moving into my neighborhood, because I'm a great grandmother, but I would sure lock my granddaughters in the bedroom until he moved out.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Ooh, do we comment on that or not?
NOEL: That's really cheap.
MALZBERG: Oh, come on.
NOEL: That's really cheap.
NOEL: The man made a mistake -- the man made a mistake while he was in a high office. Bill Clinton coming to Harlem, you know, he's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) said, look, I made a mistake. What else do you want the man to do? What?
MALZBERG: Well, she has the right -- 90 percent of the public wouldn't trust him with their young daughters alone, I would say. She's in the majority.
NOEL: I have a 20-year-old daughter. I would trust her around Bill Clinton. I would.
PHILLIPS: Do you think he's going to stay? Do you think he's actually going to, you know, come into his office every day with his box lunch and "Hi, how you all doing?" and have a picnic in the park, go to The Apollo, play a little sax?
NOEL: I don't believe he will stay in Harlem, though. I don't believe he will stay in Harlem.
PHILLIPS: Steve?
NOEL: I believe it's more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to have the community move on, and he will do his job. And that's about it. MALZBERG: He'll have the office, but he won't spend a lot of time. Look, for crying outloud, he didn't need an office for eight months and...
PHILLIPS: Well, that's a lot of taxpayer money, don't you think, just to have an office there?
MALZBERG: But they're entitled. You know, you can't begrudge an ex-president his -- what every other ex-president has. I mean, he's entitled to an office. Even Ronald Reagan still has an office, God bless him, and you know, you can't begrudge him that.
PHILLIPS: All right. We're going to go to our studio audience. Is that Jeff? Is that right? Jeff, go ahead.
JEFF: Hi. How are you doing? I'm from Queens, but I lived in Harlem, Washington Heights. I don't think it's a very good idea for Bill to move in Harlem, because like the man said, property rates will go up and everything. And it does open the door for gentrification, which they tried once before. You see, and if he's -- he's making some type of statement by doing this, just moving into Harlem, I think that it will end up having a bad effect. And I just hope it doesn't get out of hand.
PHILLIPS: That's true. I mean, you do think, I mean, any improvement is good improvement, right, guys?
NOEL: Well, you know something, Kyra, I think Rudy Giuliani's jealous right now...
MALZBERG: There he goes again, Rudy Giuliani.
NOEL: ... of the fact that when he comes to Harlem and walks down 125th Street (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mobbed by black folks. He's jealous.
PHILLIPS: All right, let me ask you -- OK. Let me -- all right, hold on a second.
Let me ask you guys -- I definitely want to get this. The federal empowerment zone. OK? Clinton helped create this. I'm told it did make a difference. It provided funding for these areas and to help build homes.
Is that a pretty big mark? Is that something to be proud of? Should we brag about that?
NOEL: Yeah, sure. Of course, Harlem is entitled to it. Of course, I mean, when I came to Harlem 23 years ago, and there were miles and miles of abandoned buildings. Today the housing stock has gone up. There are new buildings, refurbished. And people -- black people in Harlem are protecting their housing and they want more. The fact is that there are some people who are -- some unscrupulous people are coming in and charging them high rents. Bill Clinton is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) cause on that in the most (UNINTELLIGIBLE) way. MALZBERG: And I don't have problem with that. I agree that those who have lived there and have businesses there shouldn't be run out of Harlem because the prices are going up. We have to do something about that.
On the other hand, there's the New Black Liberation -- New Black Panther Party that doesn't want any whites coming into Harlem.
NOEL: They don't represent the views of...
MALZBERG: And -- I know. They're a minority.
NOEL: They don't represent...
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: They're an extreme minority. They're on the fringe...
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: All right, guys. Next time we're all in Harlem together we're going to take the brownstone tour, because I know it's very cool. I've done it. Thank you both very much for joining us.
MALZBERG: Thank you.
NOEL: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Steve Malzberg, Peter Noel, it's an absolute pleasure. And we're going to talk about (UNINTELLIGIBLE) results in a CNN-"TIME" poll. That's going to be tomorrow. We are going to raise the question -- here it is -- do kids have too much power? We're going to be talking about that. So I hope that you will join us. Have a terrific day. TALKBACK LIVE will be back tomorrow.
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