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CNN Live Today

Lawmakers Debate Bans on Human Cloning

Aired July 31, 2001 - 14:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU WATERS, CNN ANCHOR: The cutting edge science of human cloning is rife with all sorts of ethical questions. And just one day after the Bush Administration said it supports banning the science of cloning. Congress takes up the issue and CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl joins us now to tell us how that is going -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, a very interesting often technical and divisive issue here over the subject of human cloning. What we have on the floor of the House of Representatives right now are two competing bans on human cloning. One of the bans would provide an expectation. It would allow cloning of human embryos, not for the purpose of cloning human beings, but for the purpose of research. This has sparked some pretty emotional and intense debate on the floor.

Here's a taste of what we're hearing.

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REP. DAVE WELDON (R), FLORIDA: There is a company in this country that has already harvested eggs from women. They want to start creating clones. So the issue is here now. If we are going to put a stop to this, the House, I think, needs to speak and the other body needs to take this issue up as well.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not about human cloning. We're all against human cloning. What it is about is the Weldon bill further bans somatic cell nuclear transfer.

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KARL: There are two competing measures, as I said. The first one is one that is supported by the White House, as you mentioned, Lou, that is offered by Republican Dave Weldon of Florida. His bill would ban all forms of human cloning. And it would say that the shipping and receiving of cloned embryos is illegal. It would also provide penalties of up to 10 years in prison and a million dollar fine for anybody doing any human cloning or researching human cloning. On the other side, you've got a bill also offered by Republican representative Greenwood of Pennsylvania, cosponsored by Democrat Peter Deutsch of Florida. His bill would ban human cloning but allow that exception for use in scientific research. Those are the two bill that the House is debating right now.

They just have two hours to debate this very complex and technical issue and they are expected to vote on it later today. The House is expected to go with the more extensive ban with no loopholes at all for research. That's not the end of the road because of course the bill would still need to be passed by the Senate and the Senate has not said when they are going to bring this issue up -- Lou.

WATERS: Jon, I heard -- I believe I heard -- did I hear nuclear cellular transfer. Do we know what's going on here? Do the members of Congress know what's going on here?

KARL: That's a great question. Actually Peter Deutsch who was the proponent of these two measures says that in his nine years in Congress he has never seen the members of the House of Representatives more ill-prepared for a debate and in need of more education. This is a very technical issue. And frankly, many of the people that will be voting on this issue today, Lou, may not know exactly the ins and outs as they would be the first to acknowledge.

WATERS: I should say, Jon Karl, up on Capitol Hill as lawmakers take up the cloning issue, science may be way ahead of them. We have medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen with us. We talked about this once before, about all the legislation that may or may not happen as a result of this cloning issue. But science is out there. And so how do you prevent that from -- from -- from getting to its goal?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. The box has been opened, that great Pandora's box. Dolly the sheep was cloned 4 1/2 years ago. And at the time many people said, you know, it's just a little bit of a leap until we do this in humans. Now what's interesting is I've never heard a lawmaker say, yeah let's clone human beings. Nobody thinks that is a good idea unless you are sort of on the fringes of the scientific community.

There are only two groups out there that are trying to clone human beings. One has already left the U.S. to continue their work outside this country. So the bill -- this bill, if passed, wouldn't even effect them. There is only one group, they are called the Raliens, in the United States that is trying to clone a human being.

Let's think a little bit about who these people are. They are, it is safe to say, on the fringes of the scientific community. We were just at their annual convention this past weekend, in fact, in Quebec. You see it says "UFO land." This is a group that believes in UFOs and has a UFO museum.

There is Ra'el (ph) , you can see him. He is the leader of this group. This is their white ball. As you can see, they are all wearing white outfits and here they are having their dinner. Now what's interesting is that many people say how could a group this unusual that believes in UFOs, that believes that aliens created every human being in the universe, how could they have the scientific wherewithal to clone a human being. But the leader of a Ralien group called "Clonaid," that is a Ralien company that is a trying to do the cloning, she says that really, it's not so hard.

BRIGITTE BOISSELIER, CLONAID: I shouldn't say it's very easy. But it's not difficult at the same time, depending on the level of technicity (ph) and knowledge that you have. The knowledge that's needed is the one that is available in most in-vitro fertilization associated to some biology related to the cloning, and to reactivation and imprinting of the DNA. So this combination is available in hundreds of labs around the world. So it's not that difficult to do it.

COHEN : Now Brigitte Boisselier, who we just heard from says that if the U.S. does pass a law outlining cloning that she will abide by that law. But she also said that her group will challenge it all the way to the Supreme Court.

BOISSELIER: Now I will never infringe any law where I'm living. If it's not possible to do here. I will go to another place and to another until I succeed. Maybe somebody will succeed before me. That's fine as well.

COHEN : Basically, it's really impossible to tell how close the Raliens are to cloning. They may, in fact, have a woman pregnant right now with the world's first human clone or, in fact, they may be decades away. It's really impossible to tell.

WATERS: Oh, this is such a weird question,

COHEN : It's a weird topic.

WATERS: What if this woman had been impregnated and we're about to see the world's first cloned human being. What would be the reaction to that?

COHEN : I think bioethicists call it just sort of the "disgust factor," the "yecch" factor. This baby would conceivably no pun intended look just like any other baby. It would be a clone of another human alive here on the universe. And people have very visceral reactions to this, like that is just too freaky. Why in the world would someone want to do that? But really the baby would look like any other baby.

WATERS: Like the cloned person.

COHEN : Exactly. Well, the cloned person but years behind. And I think that's where people get confused about cloning. If I was to clone you, I would not have an adult "Lou" by snapping my fingers. We would have a baby "Lou" who decades from now would look like you.

WATERS: OK, it's all clear to me. Now I am going to ask you the congressional question, the debate going on about what we just talked to Jonathan Karl about, the cloning. We have heard the debate about stem cell research. Is there -- what's the difference there? COHEN: The difference between?

WATERS: Stem cell legislation, cloning legislation?

COHEN : Right, that's where things get really confusing. If you are not confused already, I will try to put this in very simple terms, because this really does get difficult so hang on.

Stem cell research is -- the goal of stem cell research is to create these stem cells which are blank cells which are usually made from embryos and those cells can then be used to possibly cure all sorts of human diseases. Most of the time those cells are created without any cloning at all. However some researchers do use cloning or do want to be able to use cloning in the future. So they don't want it outlawed because they would like to be able to use that technique.

The most important thing to remember is that those researchers who want to use cloning want to do it in the lab. So, they would, let's say, clone a cell and then destroy it a few days later. They wouldn't take the clone and put it into a woman's womb to achieve a cloned-born, walking, talking baby. And that's, I think, the distinction we need to think about here. You can do stem cell research without cloning. But some scientists want to reserve the right to be able to clone if necessary, but they promise not to make a real live human being out of it.

WATERS: I want my mom.

COHEN : Aren't mom's great.

WATERS: Elizabeth Cohen. Thanks.

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