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CNN Talkback Live
Why Do Married People Cheat?
Aired August 01, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S MOTHER: I honestly said, "Chandra," when she left to Washington, I said, "don't you become a Monica Lewinsky." And look at what's happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: What happened was adultery, an affair between intern Chandra Levy and Congressman Gary Condit. Apparently not his first in 34 years of marriage, and he's not the first to reap the consequences.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Indeed I did have a relationship with Ms. Lewinsky that was not appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After 38 years, Jackie (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BOB LIVINGSTON (R), LOUISIANA: I have hurt you all deeply and I beg your forgiveness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BATTISTA: Adultery is risky business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Have you ever committed adultery?
GARY HART (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do not have to answer that question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BATTISTA: With so much to lose, why do people do it? And if so many people are doing it, why bother vowing fidelity in marriage? Why bother marrying at all?
Hey, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.
Well, they cheat, they lie, and they say they love you. And those involved with married men and women believe that part about love. According to Chandra Levy's aunt, the young intern was convinced that Congressman Gary Condit planned to leave his wife and his family. She told that to CNN national correspondent Bob Franken earlier today. Bob joins us now.
Bob, she had a fairly frank conversation with you.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, she did, as a matter of fact. She's been somebody who has been a prominent figure in this entire story: the story that has now lasted three months today. The last time that Chandra Levy was accounted for was on May 1st. And of course, it's the story of the disappearance of a 24-year-old former Washington intern and the story of the man who finally admitted to investigators, according to police sources, that he was the powerful congressman with whom Chandra Levy had an affair.
And she had talked about that relationship with her aunt, Linda Zamsky, and confided in her about Congressman Condit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA ZAMSKY, CHANDRA LEVY'S AUNT: We had conversations starting at Thanksgiving where she told me she was dating an older married man, and I -- and he was a power -- somebody powerful in Washington, in the government. And I said, "Well, who is he?" And "No, I'm not allowed to tell. It has to be kept confidential, because it would hurt his career." And I, you know, I said: "Listen, you know, be careful. He's married. He..." Oh, she told me he has two kids.
I said: "Be careful, he's married, he has two kids, you know, and he's in government, you know. You just have to be careful."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Linda Zamsky says that she did not moralize with Chandra Levy, did not pass judgment, but she did talk with her about Chandra Levy and the marriage and how she felt about the marriage of Congressman Condit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAMSKY: Looking back, and I would guess maybe she thought -- she discarded like it wasn't -- he made it seem like it wasn't important to him, so therefore, it wasn't a concern of hers. It was almost like when it was going to be -- when he was done with his political thing, he would, you know, the wife would be gone, they would split.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Of course, this investigation and all the news that's surrounded it has inevitably raised questions about Chandra Levy and about her character and about whether she was, as I put it to Linda Zamsky, a woman of the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAMSKY: She was not a woman of the world. She did not date 10 guys in one week. That was not her -- she didn't have time. I mean, obviously she's a young, attractive girl, and she would date guys. But other conversations we had in the past eight years that we've known each other, she's been in love a few times, and you know, she's had her heart broken, and that's it. I mean, that happens in living your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: And Bobbie, so much has been made of the relationship that Congressman Condit admitted, according to investigative sources. But this is the story about the disappearance of Chandra Levy. And police saying that Congressman Condit is not a suspect, and in fact, is not the central figure in their investigation -- Bobbie.
BATTISTA: Did she, however, though, Bob, talk about that final message that was left on her answering machine, where Chandra had talked about having some sort of big news?
FRANKEN: Well, she's talked about that before. She had no idea what was that about. Now, there are any number of people who have speculated that the big news was Chandra Levy saying she was pregnant. And the police say that they have investigated that as thoroughly as they can. They have no indications that Chandra Levy was pregnant.
BATTISTA: And a final question here about why -- you know, she was fairly quiet about this when she first came out with the story to "The Washington Post." Now, she's been everywhere talking about it. Why the change?
FRANKEN: Well, there are two things that I think are involved. No. 1, as you know, this story is about a family's sadness, a sadness that's now exacerbated by the fact that the investigation seems to be dwindling just a little bit. At least, it's losing some of its intensity. So there is that factor. The other one is, is that Linda Zamsky has really bristled under the tight control that the public relations people hired by the family exercised at first, and in fact, asking her not to do television interviews.
She now thinks she's going to take matters into her own hands, and clearly she did with a series of interviews.
BATTISTA: All right. Bob Franken, thank you very much for joining us. We're going to move on here and expand on this topic.
Dr. Drew Pinsky joins us, an internist and addiction specialist, and co-host of MTV's "Loveline." Sari Locker is with us, author of "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Amazing Sex." Sari is AOL's sex and relationship educator. Robert Weiss is with us from L.A., clinical director of the Sexual Recovery Institute. Robert is the author of "Cybersex Exposed: From Fantasy to Obsession." Let me start with the three of you first. I thought the thing that was sort of striking about the interview with Ms. Zamsky there was that it seems like the best advice, if you will, that she could give her was be careful. I mean, here she is having an affair with a married man who has two kids, he's a, you know, congressman, this sort of thing. You'd think at some point in time she would have moralized a little bit with her and said, you know, experience will tell you that this is not going to work out, you're going to get hurt. Did it surprise you that she really supported her in this relationship?
SARI LOCKER, AUTHOR, "THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO AMAZING SEX": Yes. Bobbie, I certainly wish that her aunt had warned her a little more, and I think for any young woman who's in an affair with an older married man someone should come in with that voice of reason, or morality, if you prefer.
The 20s are a time for experimentation with relationships, different kinds of people, different types of relationships. But getting involved in something that is only going to end and only going to be hurtful, like getting involved with someone who's married, I believe is wrong.
BATTISTA: Dr. Drew, is it -- is it almost impossible to tell a 24-year-old who thinks that she's in love with a 53-year-old man that what she's doing is wrong?
DR. DREW PINSKY, PHYSICIAN: It may be impossible to convince her easily, but it's not in appropriate to confront them with the behavior. She really -- somebody should have taken her aside and said, hey, this is -- right or wrong, whatever, don't judge her, but this is unhealthy for you, this is a disaster. Don't you actually see the reality of what's going on here? And if you don't, why don't you? What's going on in your life? What can we do to help you see reality more clearly?
LOCKER: Exactly.
BATTISTA: Robert, maybe she was afraid of alienating her?
ROBERT WEISS, SEXUAL RECOVERY INSTITUTE: Well, I think oftentimes people who are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) situations get caught up in things that they don't expect themselves to get caught up in. And I would imagine that the intensity of living life in Washington and doing the work that they were doing didn't allow for a lot of time for reflection or thought about whether what I'm doing is right or wrong. They just did it.
LOCKER: Also, as a little aside, some people saw Monica Lewinsky as a huge celebrity, and so I don't know, maybe her aunt or some other people who didn't advise Chandra against this affair may have thought it was kind of cool or titillating or at least interesting that they knew someone who was going out with a well-known politician, the same way that Monica had some cache after having had the affair with Bill Clinton.
PINSKY: You may be right, but I've got to say that is sad if that's true.
LOCKER: Very sad. Very sad.
BATTISTA: Well, we're kind of -- we're kind of dancing -- we're kind of dancing around here, the reasons why people have extramarital affairs. And I want to attack that from both sides of the equation.
Dr. Drew, let's look at it first from the man's point of view, since even from early on it seems like they have more power in these relationships. Why do they get into them? Why do they cheat?
PINSKY: Why do they cheat? Well, there's lots of reasons that men cheat. When I hear from young people about cheating in relationships, it's usually because they can, because they don't see any consequence from it. Men. For women, it's usually quite different -- this is gross generalities now, understand what I'm saying -- that women who cheat in relationships usually have been complaining about the lack of emotional connection they've had in the relationship all along. There's some sort of emotional inadequacy. They're aware of it. They've warned the man that it's now working out. And the man then, after she cheats, breaks up and says: Oh, my god, I woke up one day and she cheated, I don't understand what was going on here. How could this possibly have happened?
There are many other reasons that people cheat. Dr. Weiss can address this very clearly. There are compulsions, there are ways of sort of attaching to traumas from the past that become sexualized, then people compulsively act them out.
BATTISTA: How often does it have to do with problems in the marriage, Robert?
WEISS: Well, problems in the marriage are often, are always -- I would say perceived sexually acting out. And it's interesting, when I have couples who come in and they say everything is really fine except for our sexual life, or the sexual problems we've been having. But everything else is fine. And I would say that sex is just another form of communication in the relationship, it's just another example of what is going on for a couple.
But in looking at people who are on-line acting out: women and men act out for very different reasons, as Dr. Drew was talking about. Women tend to look more rationally, and we're seeing women in chatrooms, for example, where men are looking, cruising porn more often. So men are more visually focused, more focused on the immediate hit and excitement, whereas women are looking more relationally for the feeling. For intimacy.
BATTISTA: Sari, let me ask you, then, what kind of relationship is a 24-year-old woman looking for with a 53-year-old guy?
LOCKER: Oftentimes, when a young woman looks towards a married man for some sort of relationship, it's the type of woman who craves love and attention, but simultaneously she has a great fear of intimacy. So she's getting this attention, but she's not going to have a very deep, intimate or lasting relationship. PINSKY: That's right. My experience has been, people who've had experiences with abandoning male figures throughout their life, where this is an attempt to make that right once and for all, to really attach themself, that love object that they never got, but of course, they end up reenacting the same abandoning experience over and again.
WEISS: And I think part of it is, again, the intensity -- the environment that people are in, when they're working 20 hours a day, and they're not sleeping and they're not paying attention to themselves, and they're intensely focused on powerful things all the time with each other.
There's a tendency to be like in a bubble, and the two of them will be really distracted by each other, and not be looking outward for support and help, because they are working together so much.
PINSKY: And Bobbie -- go ahead.
LOCKER: Finally, Bobbie, I just want to add to this. I firmly believe that we bring into our lives what we are ready for at the time for the type of relationships we choose. So a young woman who chooses to get involved with an older married man is probably not ready for the type of real lasting love relationship that would lead to her own getting married.
So hopefully as she matures, she will be able to find someone for a more appropriate, healthy type of relationship.
BATTISTA: So the bottom line is: what does love have to do with this? Almost nothing.
A couple of e-mails here and we'll take a break. Tom in New Mexico say, "Why do they cheat? Maybe the romance is gone and the passion isn't there anymore. To break your marriage vows is totally wrong. I commend those couples who've been married for 30, 40 years. That's what it's all about."
Beth in Florida says, "Most men cheat for sex; most women cheat for emotional support, which comes with that sex. Cheating is unethical, no matter who you are."
The question for today: do you know someone who is having an extramarital affair? Be honest. We obviously couldn't ask if you were doing it, so do know someone who is having an affair? Take the TALKBACK LIVE on-line viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. AOL key word is CNN. Check out my notes and send me an e-mail and we'll be back after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Welcome back.
We're talking about adultery -- and by the way, the latest numbers on adultery come from a study of the sexual behavior of 3,000 Americans, a couple of years ago at the University of Chicago. Those latest numbers tell us: 21.3 percent of the husbands who've had sexual relations with someone other than their wives, and 12.5 percent of wives who have had sexual relations with someone other than their husbands.
This one's kind of interesting: 10.2 percent of people who were reported being very happy in their marriage acknowledged having had an affair. And among those who said their marriage was not too happy, 27.2 percent admitted having an affair.
Joining our panel discussion here now is Pat Love. She is a marriage and family therapist. She is the author of book, "The Truth About Love" and "Hot Monogamy."
Pat, great to have you with us as well.
PAT LOVE, MARRIAGE THERAPIST: Glad to be here.
BATTISTA: Let you have you weigh in on why you think men and women cheat.
LOVE: I think they cheat, No. 1, because it feels good. The whole euphoria of infatuation tends to give you an altered state of consciousness, and you're not thinking, you're not in your right mind.
And also people misunderstand the whole idea of love. They don't understand that infatuation or chemistry or attraction is more about your DNA than it is whether or not the person is compatible with you or if your behavior is in line with your values and your morals.
We are all inclined to be non-monogamous. I mean, if you are alive and breathing, if you meet enough people, you will find somebody you're attracted to, even if you are in a happy, stabile marriage. I thought that statistic you read, Bobbie, was very interesting. A lot of people have affairs who are in happy marriages, because it's not always about your relationship. It's about your inclinations to feel chemistry or attraction and infatuation.
And knowing that fidelity is really about your intentions and your values and your morals. We're all inclined to be non-monogamous. It's what we do about it and choose it. We have to...
BATTISTA: You are saying, the word inclined, which is probably key there, but it also sounds like, you know, you are saying that marriage is an unnatural state for man.
LOVE: Actually, it's not an unnatural state. It's the nature of our species, we're not particularly fast or strong, but we have a good brain and we gather in groups. That, interesting study just recently that 94 percent of 20-somethings still say they want to find their soulmate. One of the problems with that study is soulmate implies that whole infatuation and euphoria, and that can lead you to picking a wrong mate, actually being unfaithful when you are in a perfectly good relationship, and that's not what love is.
BATTISTA: Let's go to the audience here. Perry had a comment she wanted to make. PERRY: Yes, this may sound somewhat judgmental, but I feel that young women have a moral obligation to themselves not to get involved with married men. You know, even if it is exciting.
PINSKY: I am kind of confused why we don't discuss this in the context of health. Yes, we are inclined to do all kinds of unhealthy things as human beings. We are inclined to be lazy, and yet, we get up and exercise every day because it's healthy for us.
People need to understand that it's healthy to be in a monogamous, stabile, intimate relationships, that it diminishes intimacy to cheat. I tell people, I would not cheat on my wife, I love her (a). But (b) even if someone can tell me that she would never find out, it would diminish the intimacy. It would be an attack on her and on my children. And I am not willing to take that. I understand the health implications of these behaviors and we need to be aware of that.
WEISS: What Dr. Drew is talking about is the breaking of trust in intimacy and once that is broken it's extremely difficult to get that back.
BATTISTA: Why do we keep doing it then? And why are we so shocked by it when other people do it?
WEISS: I think that Dr. Love is really on the right track. I mean that feeling of love, that feeling is so powerful and intense and it is a neurochemical response. It may have very little to do with the reality of the situation.
When you kept talking about earlier, Chandra Levy as making a choice in those moments, I am not sure that she was thinking so much about is he married or is he not married. I think that it felt really wonderful. And that's what made the decision. Not thinking about values and morals at that moment.
PINSKY: I would go even further. I would say we live in a time when many of us have sort of inadequacies, or incompetencies of self. We don't manage out affective worlds well. It's not easy for us to feel good. And our culture tells us, drugs, sex, fast cars, money, if that makes you feel good, go for it. It's your world, you get it now. And you know what, it works in the moment, but it does nothing to nourish and develop us as human being in the long term. So we end up in this cycle of repeating these behaviors where we try to get gratified in the moment.
LOCKER: And also people need to know more about what marriage means to them, that someone shouldn't propose or accept a proposal unless those two people are sure that they want to continuously make the choice to stay monogamous throughout their relationship. And when I say make the choice, I mean that if you start to the notice other person, immediately you go the other direction.
You have to keep the infatuation alive in your relationship even when it turns to a more stable kind of love. You need to start to send each other romantic e-mails again like you used to when you were courting. Or like you might be tempted to do with someone new. You need to put that energy back in your relationship if you want to stay married.
WEISS: I think that this idea of intensity being love has, is something that we need to talk more about because intensity is not love. Intensity is bonding. Intensity's about procreation. It's what makes the race be created. But when you're actually in love over time, it has more to do with bonding, commitment, intimacy, boundaries.
PINSKY: Values.
WEISS: Values -- not just intensity.
LOVE: Yes, exactly.
LOCKER: We still want to have...
(CROSSTALK)
LOCKER: ... all of those wonderful things but you still want to have those thrills and excitement that you had at the beginning.
LOVE: Let me jump in here for a moment because one of the hidden dangers in this whole chemistry and connoting that with love is that once you -- if you are in a happy stable relationship and you start following that chemistry, out of the guilt, whether it's conscious or unconscious, what you do is you turn and you look back at your partner and you find fault.
And if you look long enough you rare going to find it. And so this has to be a decision made in the very beginning of a relationship because once you are in that altered state you're not thinking consciously. And you know you can make this passion happen in a long- term commitment.
BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break here. When I come back, Mary Ann, we'll get your comment. And also Sylvia's on the phone. Hang on. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Wowee, that'll learn you -- a million dollars. Let me go to Mary Ann quickly in the audience. You had a comment?
MARY ANN: The reason why people cheat for the most part is out of boredom. for one reason. Second of all, your relationship that you're in is not going the way you want to. Mid-life crisis and environmental.
BATTISTA: Environmental?
MARY ANN: Yeah, meaning what profession you're in sometimes, it takes you out. You are exploring other different things and ideas.
BATTISTA: All right, if you are subject to temptation from all these different areas, let me ask the panel, are there some people that just should not get married, Pat?
LOVE: Well, my first response is that boredom is a defense against creativity. If you don't know how to create a marriage, or a long-term committed relationship, it behooves you to find out -- there are so many courses and books and educational seminars and churches and synagogues all around the country, all around the world, literally, in marriage education that is now teaching us the skills.
Research has shown us what makes marriage work. It's not a defense anymore to say I don't know how to do it. You can find out, you can learn it, it's a skill.
WEISS: When I see couples coming together and having healthy sexuality it's because they are talking from their heart and they are connecting to each other. And I just have concerns of putting too much emphasis on, we need to make marriage hot again, or exciting again, intense again. Because that puts a lot of pressure on the spouse.
When we work with spouses whose partners have been acting out sexually or having affairs, the spouse often feels like, gee, I am not sexy enough or I don't look thin enough, or maybe I just need to be more sexual. That's really unfair to put on the spouse that it is their fault for not being enough. I think that's a problem. It's both partner's, not just the person who should be doing it more.
LOCKER: Something has changed with my generation in that, this is the generation where people are waiting longer than ever to get married. So it used to be that people would get married in their early 20s, and now that's moving into the mid-20s or for some even late-20s, early-30s.
And so what we are finding is that today's late teens and 20- somethings are having experience with relationships, relationships that begin and then end, far prior to the person who they choose to marry. So I hope that today's young 20-somethings are learning from those relationships, rather than getting marriage and then getting divorced.
BATTISTA: The baby boomers had that experience but it was just called your first and second divorce.
LOCKER: Yeah, exactly.
LOVE: Right.
LOCKER: Exactly. So I hope that my generation learns from our parents.
BATTISTA: That happened in their 20s, that's right.
LOCKER: I agree and so many people from my generation also, if our parents were divorced, we do not want to repeat that. I would want to stay married forever. People I know my age, the same kind of thing. We want to stay married forever without a divorce, not repeat the same mistakes that our parents made. BATTISTA: Let me take Sylvia on the phone here from Wisconsin -- Sylvia, go ahead.
SYLVIA: Well I think that the whole thing stems from a lack of respect. My kids were brought up to respect marriage and respect the vows they took. And the fact that all of these young women go into business and are young, attractive, they have the ego of an older man and he thinks that oh, boy, I've got a nice young chick on my hands here. And the blame is on both sides. It's lack of respect to begin with.
PINSKY: Well, some of it also, I think, is the cultural environment young people are trying to negotiate right now. You mentioned, Bobbie, I think at the outset of the show, a study by the Independent Women's Forum, shows that college age women now have basically two choices in relationships -- actually three.
One is, they hook-up in these sexual encounters that are one- night, no strings attached, or they become rapidly fused and joined at the hip with someone that they really are not even sure they want to be with. Or they have something called "friends with benefits."
Where is the date in this? Where is the relationship? Where are the milestones? How do they negotiate through a relationship to decide whether this is or isn't the kind of person that they want to be with or who in the heck they are in relation to other people. They are really trying to go...
LOCKER: I think that the 20-somethings do get to that. I think the college stage is the one that you were just referring to with the hook-ups and such. But once people do get into their early 20s, they do start dating and testing more of what it's like to be in a real relationship.
BATTISTA: You know what, I've got to say something here and I have some college age women right here in the audience who we are going talk to, but I don't think anything has changed. Hooking-up is just a new name for it, but I mean, the same thing was going on in the '70s in college too.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and in the '50s.
LOVE: And the important piece in this is though that what research shows is that what keeps couples together is compatibility. It's not just the intensity. And confusing this with love -- only 10 percent of couples even say that that's a priority, 80 percent say, we are best friends. We are confidantes, we are social partners, we support each other. Like Sylvia was saying, we respect each other.
But we haven't made that important enough to let people want to strive for that.
BATTISTA: Let me talk quickly with my college women here before I have to go to break -- Jennifer and Jennifer. You guys, what does "hooking up" mean to you?
JENNIFER: It's just, instead of dating, you just, you are friends with someone, you might kiss, you might go out, but it doesn't...
JENNIFER: No benefits.
JENNIFER: Yeah, it's kind of the "friends with benefits" thing; there's no commitment. No one really dates, no one goes out with more than one date with one person. If you do, you are practically married.
BATTISTA: Are you guys OK with that or is that kind of unsettling?
JENNIFER: I think that it's sad that in college now, you have lost that sense of formal dating, and it's coming to this.
BATTISTA: And over here and check with Pamela -- oh, Angela?
ANGELA: Yes, I think people hook up because, like, it's just something like a support system in college, you have your study-buddy, you have someone to have fun with, casual sex can be involved. If not, then it's cool. There's no dating in college. Everybody just wants to have fun, have a good time. I just think that that's what it's about.
BATTISTA: OK, I have to take a quick break here, but I want to come back and talk about this a little bit more. So we will see you in two minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: All right. We are back.
Sari, I want to go to you, did you guys kind of find it a little bit shocking that she was talking a few minutes ago -- also you guys, too -- you were saying that anymore than two dates was considered practically married? Where is that coming from?
LOCKER: I think that they are talking about what the experience is like in college. And as you said, Bobbie, this is not just something that is happening today. It has been happening probably 30 years or more. In college it's more about tryout dating, without really formal dating, hanging out, hooking up, that kind of stuff. But I don't think two dates and it's a serious commitment, is necessarily the way it is, once people reach their early 20s.
BATTISTA: The thing I find sort of amazing, all of these young women are still growing up with the expectation that they are going to meet their future husband in college.
PINSKY: Yes, in fact, Bobbie, that same study showed that 65 percent of women wanted to meet their husband in college, and 85 percent of them, the same study, showed women felt that marriage was one of their highest priorities. And yet, how does the social setting they are coming in to, help them negotiate that value...
LOCKER: It changes drastically from freshman year to senior year.
BATTISTA: I think it's surprising that they'd even be looking for spouses at that age, knowing what they're knowing from the generation -- our generation before them, that if you get married right out of college, you are most likely going to end up divorced, and you have all this career stuff to work out. And the marriage age is getting higher and higher, so why would they be looking for potential spouses in college?
LOCKER: It's very difficult to be in a serious relationship, to say "I love you" to someone, without at least having the fantasy you are going to be married. That's part of what happens, these...
PINSKY: For women. For women.
LOCKER: And for some men, too.
PINSKY: Some men. But predominantly women.
LOCKER: So these early relationships often are the sort of, I love you forever, we are going to be married relationships, and then once those relationships end, once they get into their early 20s, people start to realize the more realistic view, that some relationships may end and that one special one will hopefully turn out to be marriage forever.
BATTISTA: Pat, let me get you in on this, how does this behavior, even though it's not that different from previous generations, how does that bode for the future of marriage?
LOVE: Well, I think marriage will always be with us, because it's part of our natural state, to be bonded. I think what we are seeing is, as we move further and further away from each other, in terms of our lifestyle, the increased need of intimacy will drive us oftentimes prematurely to make a connection with someone, and so, therefore -- in fact, the dating, this whole hooking up, I think is going -- using the wrong means, moving in the right direction.
It's our nature to want to be special, to make connection. To be sensual, to be sexual, to be supportive. And yet, we don't have a precedent for during that other than being in marriage. I think, what is promising about this is, we are waiting until later to make a commitment and that does bode well for long-term marriage, if that's your goal -- go ahead.
WEISS: Bobbie, I want to drop something else in here, too. Because with the advent of the Internet and cybersex, there's a new question aboard, which is, what is cheating? And I think that, at one time, when it was live one-on-one, yes, you could be very clearly saying this is cheating or this isn't cheating, but now that you have the computer and computer sex. When somebody is online and their wife is in the next room doing the dishes and they are online having virtual sex with someone, are they cheating? I think the whole culture's nature of -- the question of what cheating is, is changing.
LOVE: This is -- the answer to that question, by the way, is yes. When you turn your attention to give the energy to this person online, whether it's real or in cyberspace, or someone at work, what goes away in marriage are all those little niceties. Showing your partner that you are special. That's what research says makes marriages happy and stable, is keeping your attention to home and to your partner, and closing those options and closing those doors.
It's not just a moral judgment, it's what research says: it's better for your health, it's better for your relationship and it's better for your pocketbook.
WEISS: It's so much easier to deny, when I'm saying, well, I never touched that person.
BATTISTA: Right.
LOCKER: You know what then? Then write an erotic e-mail and send it to your spouse, that will keep your relationship tingly, exciting, and really great. And it will keep you away from those chatrooms.
BATTISTA: Lori in the audience. Go ahead, Lori.
LORI: Hi, we were raised as children watching movies that told us that to go on emotion instead of what marriage is really all about, which is a ride through life, the good and the bad. So we were geared toward this. We were geared to go with what feels good. To...
PINSKY: That's right. I think the culture's really disturbed by this. It's interesting how we start out with a discussion about sexuality, and we end up -- as everyone that works in mental health with tell you -- we end up in a discussion of intimacy. And the cultures do not do that.
BATTISTA: Let me take this call from Abbe in Connecticut, go ahead.
ABBE: Yes, I am in my 60s. I have been married 43 years. I found out three years ago that my husband had an affair with one of my dearest friends. I -- not only -- the anger is still very much here, but the hurt. Initially when he told me he just spilled his guts, and I thought I was going crazy. I really did. I took our wedding album and ripped it to shreds. I just -- I was throwing things, screaming, this is something I never have done before.
BATTISTA: Abbe, are you still together?
ABBE: He are together. And -- he is the only man I've ever loved, and if he is truly repentant, why didn't he tell me when I was younger?
PINSKY: Have you had any treatment?
ABBE: No. PINSKY: This would be -- this is a symptom that you guys need some help.
LOVE: By the way, when you are going through betrayal, it is the one emotion that can create psychosis, so feeling crazy is feeling normal when you go through betrayal and this is something you can get through. There are very simple steps, and with a professional, you can get through this.
WEISS: Spouses do feel crazy when they are being cleated on. Because they are being told that's your imagination, I'm not really doing this, you must be making it up, and of course, they learn to doubt themselves because their reality is being denied.
BATTISTA: That leads to an e-mail to us from Colorado. "I don't think having an extramarital affair needs to constitute the end of a marriage, there are a number of reasons why a partner would seek an outside partner. And generally, it's for attention. I believe the affair's not the real problem, but rather problems within the relationship."
LOVE: Bobbie, let me talk about something I have seen that bears speaking of, and that is, what I call the unworkable contract. I work with a lot of couples where one person is saying to the other, I expect you to be monogamous, but don't expect me to meet your sexual needs. Now, that's a setup, and people -- I've seen so many couples with that contract that it is so -- you've got to be realistic about the...
PINSKY: Ooh, my goodness.
BATTISTA: Oops, we just lost Pat. I'm sorry. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shot out a little bit early there.
LOCKER: I agree with what Pat was saying, and I think that any couple who wants to work on their relationship really can do that, and hopefully before an affair begins, so that you can say to your partner: "What are your expectations for our relationship, for our sex life?" And if you two can't talk about that together, then please, go see a therapist together.
I think that most couples really should see a therapist at some point just to learn how they can improve their relationship even more, and especially couples who are about to get married, premarital counseling or therapy, relationship therapy, is fantastic in helping lay a firm foundation.
WEISS: And things change -- and things change in coupleships. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, and then later on it's going to work again. So I don't think you can look at any given moment and say, this is how it's going. I think people need to have some view over time about their relationship and their sexuality.
BATTISTA: A couple of quick e-mails here. Barbara in Nebraska says: "My vow said, 'for better or for worse,' not 'for until I get bored or something better comes along.'" And Bill in Camden, New Jersey says: "The institution of marriage is so outdated that its death is long overdue."
I'm guessing Bill is not married. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: On some Micronesian Islands, nose-biting is seen as an acceptable form of retribution for committing adultery. According to Roman law and Indian custom, nose amputation was a penalty for adulterers. Some American Indian tribes, ancient Egyptians and Pakistanis also used nose mutilation as a punishment.
Let me ask you guys if you think down the road, as, you know, we live longer to, say, 150 years or so, that it's going to be reasonable to think that we would only be married to one person for 100 years, or is it going to be acceptable that we might be serially monogamous and go through two or three very long-term relationships?
PINSKY: I think as the life expectancy has expanded we've move toward sustained relationships across a lifespan. The data on this is clear. Men, particularly, live happier, healthier, more robust lives in sustained monogamous relationships.
LOCKER: I hope that we can keep having lasting marriages even if people live, you know, forever, because I think personally that there's a wonderful experience of having shared that many years with someone, having that common history and the experience of being in a relationship that's gotten stronger over all those years.
BATTISTA: Well, we just happen to have a couple that's been married 50 -- is it 50? -- 50 years: Vivian and...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 51 this year.
BATTISTA: ... who were sharing their secrets with us during the break. Go ahead, Viv.
VIVIAN: The secret basically is you love each other, you hate each other, but you always get together and you keep each other as your best friend.
BATTISTA: And Erv...
ERV: Well, my comment is that respect for your partner is the crux of it. Having been in business, the opportunities are always there to carry on, but if you have something good at home, you just don't do it.
(APPLAUSE)
BATTISTA: Go ahead.
WEISS: Well, I think these people -- you know, they're really talking about the long term and the long view. I have so many couples who come in for treatment and say, well, sex has been bad for the last few months, maybe it's not, our relationship isn't working anymore. And you -- I don't think you can look at things as what's going on in this moment. You've got to be looking at a relationship over time.
PINSKY: And again, I think that's so symptomatic of our culture, where things have to be gratifying now. There's no sense that you have to work on things over time to really be nourished and get something good out of it. Marriage takes a lot of work and a lot of time, and we need to be committed to it and understand we will reap the benefits if we hang in and do the work.
BATTISTA: Dee on the phone. Let me take Dee on the phone here in Virginia. Go ahead, Dee.
DEE: Hi. I actually started having an affair with a married man not knowing that he's married. I am definitely not proud of it. By the time I got involved, I was so caught up in it, listening to his sob stories about him and his wife not talking for years and they hadn't had sex for years. I got caught up in it.
Eight months after the fact, they ended up getting -- or started divorce proceedings. Then his wife didn't know about me, as far as I know. And then after living with me for three months, I ended up getting pregnant and he ended up walking out. So I am now four months pregnant on my own.
BATTISTA: Dee, let me ask you something. Let me ask you something, Dee. What -- have you not heard that those are basically the standard lines a married man will give you?
DEE: I was -- I was so, I don't know, just caught up in it. I hadn't had, I guess, good relationships prior to that. And...
PINSKY: Right, that's the key.
BATTISTA: Are you younger? Is he older?
DEE: I'm 10 years younger than he is.
PINSKY: These -- these guys learn to prey on their victims. They know why they are and they exploit them.
WEISS: Yeah, I think we haven't at all touched on the issue of sex addiction or compulsive sexual behavior, but there certainly is a segment of the population who will reach out and try to find any way to engage someone sexually or get something going for themselves, and they know exactly what to say and they know exactly what to do.
PINSKY: And they know who to choose, right? They know who...
WEISS: And they know who to choose.
BATTISTA: By the way, Dee's not on the phone with us anymore, but we certainly wish her luck with her situation.
We're getting -- we're getting a bunch of e-mails, too, from people sharing their personal experiences with us. Carrie in Iowa says: "When I had an affair, I just blocked the fact that he was married out of my mind. I knew it, but refused to really think about it. I'm not proud of my behavior and do not believe in sleeping with married men, but I got carried away with the lust and the excitement."
Steve in California says: "The problem is that no one knows going into marriage what it will be like in 10 years. When the love stops, the marriage becomes a prison that we stay in to provide a home for our children and the affair is a combination of anger expressed at the spouse and a temporary fulfillment of a basic human need for affection."
PINSKY: Well, listen...
LOCKER: That sounds like a marriage that wasn't nurtured and it wasn't worked on, and it should not get to that.
PINSKY: And -- and -- well, I agree with that. I just passed my 10th anniversary, and we are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we had a great time. And if we were having trouble, I would seek treatment, because treatment works. That is a marriage that needs treatment. It can be restored to health. People need to understand that.
WEISS: It's very difficult also to seek treatment about these issues, because there's so much shame around sexual problems and sexual issues. It's very, very, very hard for a spouse to come forward and say, my husband is having an affair and I need help and I need to talk about it. It's embarrassing, it's humiliating, it's difficult for couples to come forward.
BATTISTA: Got to break. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: One question that Karen in Florida has brought up is how come no one is talking about AIDS or other STDs. Her ex-husband cheated on her and put here at risk for that because he didn't use a condom.
You know, Robert, I think the interesting thing about this virtual sex that you're talking about in the future is the one thing about that is that would be disease-free, wouldn't it?
WEISS: Well, you know, you bring up two issues that are both equally important. I mean, the one about STDs, that is the first question a spouse has when they come in, is they find out that their boyfriend or husband is a sex addict, he's been acting out all over the place. And you know, do they have a disease? Have they been exposed to something? Because that same intensity arousal that makes someone overlook that someone might be married is also going to make them overlook that they should be wearing a condom, that the arousal and the intensity and the experience that people get into when they're having something like an affair or seeing a prostitute can really rule out reason. And people do get diseases that way and they pass them to their spouses.
LOCKER: There are no two ways about it. Having an affair is not healthy for you emotionally and it may not be physically. So for all the people out there, if there's any one watching right now, if you're considering being part of an affair, then I need to say to you, please, find a therapist, find someone to talk to who can help you really figure out why it is that you'd want to cheat or why it is that you'd want to be part of an affair in some other way...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Let me -- let me get -- let me get one of those on the line for you. Let me get one of those on the line for you right now.
LOCKER: OK.
BATTISTA: Adrina in North Carolina, go ahead.
ADRINA: Hi. I am a 33-year-old divorced woman, and I am in the midst of an extramarital affair. And Sari's comment really just hit me, because I realize now what's going on with me, that, you know, my father died when I was at a young age. And I think I'm looking for that attention from another person, and then I find myself backing off when it looks like it could get serious.
PINSKY: That's right. It's a fear of that intimacy, because ultimately intimacy means loss for you.
LOCKER: But you can get help. You really can find help.
ADRINA: What do I do about that?
LOCKER: What you do is you find a great therapist who could help you sort out your past, your childhood issues, and help you figure out some of the skills that you're going to need for a good relationship.
It might take time, but for now, maybe make a rule for yourself that you're going to end the affair that you're in and you're going to not even date for a while. Get to know yourself a little better first.
WEISS: Well, I'm just impressed -- I'm impressed with the fact that you're talking about it, because I think you are taking the first step, is I want to look at this, I think it doesn't work for me, and you're reaching out to other people. And I think the more you can reach out to people in your life and talk about it, and build some boundaries and support for yourself, that's how you'll be able to create change.
BATTISTA: In the couple of minutes...
LOCKER: You can do it.
BATTISTA: In the couple of...
LOCKER: You can find love.
BATTISTA: In the couple of minutes that we have left or so, we might as well, you know, try to end on an encouraging note. Darrell, you say that you've been married since college.
DARRELL: Yes, I didn't go to college to get married necessarily, but I married the love of my life in college when I was a sophomore in college. And it was a great thing for me, and we've been married. It will be 14 years in two weeks.
I just wanted to say one other thing.
(APPLAUSE)
Maybe more of the root of some of the problems here -- and to get some of the experts' opinion -- I was raised under the impression that the family is the moral fiber of society and that our society reflects about how we treat our families. What are we doing as a society today when we see this is such a rampant problem? What are we doing as a society to teach our children to be maybe more back at the "Leave It to Beaver" type of idea where you date and you date respectfully, and then you go and you get married for your entire life.
WEISS: Well, I want to say -- I want to say something about that. I think there's a difference between what you teach and what you do. And it's one thing to tell kids and instruct kids as to how they should be and how they should do things. It's another thing to spend a lot of time with them and teach them of the value and nature of close relationships that you're having with them as a parent. It's healthy parenting that's going to help people bring toward -- toward monogamy, not only just telling them it's the right thing to do.
BATTISTA: Final couple of e-mails here. Brandon in St. Louis says: "I cheated on my wife and I lost everything: my wife, my children, my job, and my self-respect. The thrill of sex was not worth this price."
And Marge in British Columbia says: "I found out a way to stop my husband from cheating on me. I threw his personal belongings out in the driveway and I locked the doors on him."
So...
WEISS: Good job.
PINSKY: Yeah...
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: All right. Let's take a quick look at our poll here. The question was, "Do you know someone who's having an extramarital affair?" And can we get that up there, you guys? Yeah, 59 percent say, yes, they -- 60 percent almost say yes, they do, and 41 percent say no.
All right, Dr. Drew, Sari, Robert, thank you both -- all three of you, rather, for joining us today. Appreciate all the good advice.
And we'll see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE. Thank you for joining us as well.
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