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CNN Talkback Live

Women's Tennis & the Williams Sisters: A Love Match?

Aired August 29, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: From little league to tennis, is there any such thing as a good sport? Does it matter if the star pitcher lies about his age?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he's 14, I feel that that's wrong. But if he didn't pitch that perfect game, nobody would have said anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And sister power, the Venus-Serena tennis duo, accused by some of not playing by the rules.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's no secret that are not the two most popular players among their colleagues. What they say, which I think is legitimate, is listen, we come here to win tennis matches and take trophies, we don't come here to make friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Are their critics jealous or right on the money? Sportsmanship, courtesy, honesty and tradition? Do they have anything to do with winning the game?

Hey, everybody. Good afternoon and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. A little later we will talk about the Williams sisters and their rocky relationship with women's tennis.

But first, just how little is little league prodigy Danny Almonte. The boy is a national star, pitching a perfect game during the Little League World Series. The trouble is, a "Sports Illustrated" reporter located a second set of birth records for the boy in the Dominican Republic. And according to them, he is 14, not 12 as he claims. If true, Almonte is two years old. Does it matter? Here to talk about it are Carmen Feliciano, a major and minor league baseball agent, and sports agent Drew Rosenhaus.

Welcome to both of you.

DREW ROSENHAUS, SPORTS AGENT: Thank you. BATTISTA: And we should start out by saying, you guys, we don't know where the truth lies in this story just yet, unless you have any new information that you could share with us, or anything that you've heard. But if it should turn out that this kid is too old, does he or should he -- Do they lose everything? I mean, do they lose that crucial game? Do they lose their...

ROSENHAUS: Yes.

BATTISTA: Do they lose their pride? Do they lose their league? I mean, everything goes?

ROSENHAUS: Yes, yes, because cheating is impermissible. You can't have someone who is purportedly 14 years of age playing against guys that are two years -- that's a huge difference in little league baseball, and if it is accurate that he's older, and the games that he was involved with, they're going to have to the forfeit those games, and their and should be sanctions against the coaches, and organizers for not doing a better job of knowing what his age is, or even worse, if they used him, even knowing the accurate age, and also parents should be ashamed of themselves, Danny's, for letting him playing at the improper age. There is no question that there has to be ramifications.

BATTISTA: So everybody that you're naming there is an adult, and that's where it really hurts?

ROSENHAUS: Yes.

BATTISTA: Because more than likely this was the action of adults, and it's the kids that are going to get creamed for it?

ROSENHAUS: You know what, that's the problem with the sports right now, it's not about the kids anymore, it's about the adults -- the coaches, the parents, they're all so competitive that they care only about winning. Let's remember, little league sports is for little kids. It's suppose to teach them of being a part of the team -- respect discipline, hard work. It's not just about winning. It's not just about W's. And unfortunately, the adults are getting so carried away with winning, whether it's the managers or the parents, and they're forgetting what team sports, youth sports, is all about, and the kids are suffering.

BATTISTA: Meanwhile, Carmen, as we're talking, there is a victory parade going on in New York City for the little Baby Bronx' Bombers. What do you think should happen if this falls apart for them?

CARMEN FELICIANO, MAJOR/MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL AGENT: Well, it's just sad. I, you know, don't know what should happen, because Danny's not -- it's not his fault here, like, you know, it is the coaches and the family's fault, which is very ashamed. Danny has a lot of talent, and he shouldn't just play -- he should just play with kids his age. At this time, he should be look at basis of the game, how to learn to play baseball, not so much on winning, and just, you know, because right now, the one that he's hurting here is Danny. BATTISTA: Give us a little bit of back...

ROSENHAUS: He is going to be hurt, guys. There's no question that this really kills a very talented young man who deserves a lot of recognition for his ability, and it's a shame that instead of people talking about his magnificent performances, they're now talking about whether or not he's a cheater, and if his parents lied, and whether or not he's playing against younger kids. And it's unfortunate, because this young man has a great future ahead of him, and this is very controversial.

BATTISTA: You really think that that will hurt his future?

FELICIANO: I don't think so.

ROSENHAUS: It will hurt his future, Carmen. There's no doubt that this creates a negative light, though, on this young man and his family, negative publicity, and it could hurt his psyche, and his mentality. We're dealing with a young kid here, whether he is 12, 13, or 14, to be involved in all of these national stories and people taking shots at him, how you say that this doesn't hurt him in the future.

BATTISTA: The bottom line is, if you are pitching the no-hitters at age 14, that's all that's going to matter in the Major Leagues, don't you think?

ROSENHAUS: It can, but you know what, he's going to be impacted by the negative -- if they take games away, you don't think he's going to feel guilty and he's going to feel bad with respect to his teammates? This is a really negative experience.

FELICIANO: He just needs to pitch a couple of more no-hitters and everything will be forgotten.

ROSENHAUS: Well, hopefully, you are right, but I doubt it.

BATTISTA: I'm not sure what message that's sending.

ROSENHAUS: This is the most publicity I've ever seen. And you know what, it should not be forgotten guys, because this can not be permissible. No matter how many no-hitters this guy throws, you can't forget about it because sports is not about cheating, it's not just about finding ways to win, it's about playing within the rules. You know, you look at what's happening, not just the at little league level, but at high school, for high school, for example, you've got high schools going out and recruiting kids who are ringers from other districts, illegally bringing them in. Every day, you pick up the paper, you see infractions of cheating. It's sending the wrong message to the young people, if the role models, who are the coaches, and the teachers, and the managers and the parents are not following the rules, what kind of example does this set? Is Danny going to follow any rules...

BATTISTA: I am with you on this, Drew, but you know, Major League administrators and management are just sitting around trying to figure out whether they should go after this kid when he's 16 or 18, just to be sure.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let me ask Carmen something here, because a little background is in order. We may never know the truth of this story, because, as we know, the records in the Dominican Republic are not kept quite as well as in other countries, so we may never know the truth here for sure. But tell us a little bit what happens to a kid -- if you have a 10-year-old or a 12-year-old kid in the Dominican Republic, and he's obviously promising or an ace baseball player, what path does he take to come to this country?

FELICIANO: Well, it's -- you know, everyone in the Dominican Republic, every little kid, you know, their dream is to come to the United States and play baseball. They come from a very poor background, and that's their, you know, way to -- you know, it's a dream. A 10-year-old over there, that's all they do, they play ball from 8:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night.

BATTISTA: So is it safe to say that they...

ROSENHAUS: That's what's so sad about this.

BATTISTA: ... would do everything to accomplish that dream? Is it safe to say that, some of them would?

FELICIANO: Can you repeat the question again.

BATTISTA: I was going to say, is it safe to say that some parents over there, in order accomplish that dream, would do anything?

FELICIANO: Definitely so.

BATTISTA: Yes .

ROSENHAUS: That's what's so sad here, that the parents -- this is a wonderful story of a young man who's beat the odds, who's come from the Dominican Republic and poverty and is doing some special things, but because of the alleged cheating here, he's not getting recognized for the magnificent ability that he has, as much of the fact that there's a system here in place that appears to have been circumvented, and that's very, very sad, and that what has to happen in the future is players from Central America or from foreign countries who come here, there has to be a fail-method in order to make sure that they get the ages right. I mean, you could get little kids hurt this.

This guy -- this kid, I should say, is throwing the ball 100 miles an hour, against these little 12-years-olds. If they get hit, they could get hurt. No one else is throwing it at that level. This is a very serious issue that can not happen again in the future.

FELICIANO: This might not be, you know, parents' fault either. Like, if you are someone from Santa Domingo, and like I said, they are very poor people, and someone comes up to you and say, oh, you know, this kid is showing a lot of talent, I can make him a big star, all we've got to do it, just say that he's, you know, 12 instead of 14.

ROSENHAUS: Hey, no, you can't do that, though, Carmen.

FELICIANO: I know, but...

BATTISTA: I understand what she is saying. The perspective is way different.

ROSENHAUS: They're going to have to wait.

FELICIANO: But what I'm saying is that these parents don't know any better. So if the coaches over here, if the coach is the one that is knowing that this kid was 14, instead of 12...

ROSENHAUS: Then they should be ashamed of themselves.

FELICIANO: ... it's the coach's fault.

ROSENAUS: It is.

BATTISTA: Let me Bring another voice into the conversation here, Peter Noel is with us now. He is a staff reporter for "The Village Voice."

Peter, what do you think of all of this with us? What are you hearing about this story up here?

PETER NOEL, "VILLAGE VOICE": Well, Bobbie, you know, I had the story, and I didn't have the heart to do it, because there's a difference between investigative journalism and just being mean- spirited, and I believe this was just a mean-spirited attacks on young kids in the ghetto who had the gall to dream about making the Big Leagues.

BATTISTA: You know what, though, it did not start with "Sports Illustrated." Another team in that league actually spent $10,000 investigating the rumor of whether or not this kid was the right age. I mean, that's kind of nuts, don't you think?

NOEL: No, I understand. No, we know about it because of the investigative journalism by another reports and then because it hit the news. The issue is here: Do these kids have a right, you know, to dream, to go on? And...

ROSENHAUS: No, no, the issue is the truth.

NOEL: Some people are saying -- let me speak, man. You had your right to say. Let me finish. Let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let Peter finish, Drew. Let Peter finish.

NOEL: I simply saying here that I'm saying that lying or cheating is American. You have young kids.

ROSENHAUS: Wait a second!

NOEL: Wait a second! You just hold on, now!

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: They're saying at 21 years old to get a drink. The president's daughter...

ROSENHAUS: This is not permissible.

NOEL: Can I finish?

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: One at a time here. Let me -- One at a time. Peter, finish your point.

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: Let me finish.

BATTISTA: Let Peter finish his point, then Drew you can respond.

NOEL: Take your turn man!

BATTISTA: You guy, come on.

NOEL: He is saying -- the president's daughter lies about her age to get a drink. This is happening every day in America's culture. Now, this guy was saying...

ROSENHAUS: But it doesn't make it right.

NOEL: Let me finish my point.

ROSENHAUS: And it should not be right in sports.

NOEL: This guy is saying...

ROSENHAUS: There's no place for it.

NOEL: You're very, rude, man, you're very rude.

ROSENHAUS: And can't say he's American.

NOEL: Can I finish my point? You don't want me to say my point.

BATTISTA: Wait, I want to move beyond that point, so let Peter finish.

Go ahead, Peter.

NOEL: OK. He is suggesting that, hey, you know, if these people -- people lie to come into this country every day. And if they do well, you know, if they came in illegally and they do well and they become millionaires should we take away their money and deport them? No, this is just part of the culture. And Americans...

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: I'm not saying that it's -- I'm not saying that this is right to do it. This is wrong what is happening.

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENHAUS: We're talking about little league sports.

NOEL: I'm saying it is wrong, but you should not...

ROSENHAUS: This is little league baseball.

NOEL: Something that is going on, it is not just jealousy, this is racism.

ROSENHAUS: Do you understand?

NOEL: That's what I'm saying.

ROSENHAUS: Here's my point: This is little league baseball and we have to respect the rules and integrity and honesty. It's -- let's not talk about prejudice and racism. I think it's a shame if it is involved, but it would be terrible if we lose sight of the fact...

NOEL: But you see, you're ignoring the fact that racism is involved.

ROSENHAUS: ... that there is cheating here, and you're condoning it...

NOEL: You are ignoring the fact that racism involved.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I got to jump in here.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I got to jump in here to take a break. But a couple of e-mails that have come.

Doug in Hawaii says: "Don't blame the kids, the adults are teaching them to win at all costs. Sportsmanship and fair play seem to be a thing of the past."

And Bill in British Columbia says: "I managed teams in Brooklyn. I saw this happen many times, older brothers who play under younger brother's birth certificates."

All right, if Almonte is 14, should little league revoke the Baby Bombers' third place win?

Take the TALKBACK LIVE on-line viewer vote, that's the question today, at cnn.com/talkback. AOL keyword is CNN. While there, check out my notes, send an e-mail.

We will be back with more right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We -- it's OK to go after it? Is that what we're saying here?

BATTISTA: Go ahead. What do you say? Peter, you ignited something with that racism comment, so we're going with it.

Carly (ph), go ahead.

CARLY: No, what I'm saying is that because he did such a good job and he's Dominican, there was a big picture there and people wanted to know more about it. But if he were an Anglo kid the questions wouldn't have been so obvious as they were with this kid.

NOEL: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pitched this no-hitter. I was proud of the young man until I found out he was 14 years old, and I didn't care what color he was. It didn't bother me, I just said: That was wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The point is that questions began, the questions began. What makes this kids so good? He can't be that good. Something's wrong here. This kid can't be Dominican and that good. Something's going on here.

That's what I believe started it, had to deal with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's -- no, no. That didn't enter my mind.

BATTISTA: Does anybody on the panel know how the whole story got started?

ROSENHAUS: Well, I know that "Sports Illustrated" has an investigative guy. You know, there's all kinds of rumors about this guy's age because he was so exceptional, and they went back and they started looking into it, and that's the reality of it. It's just a guy that decided that he was going to go ahead and find the facts.

NOEL: But we don't...

ROSENHAUS: I don't think that it's been...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENHAUS: And you know, it hasn't been resolved yet.

NOEL: But when you look good on your...

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: ... that's exactly what it do to you. They try to make you look like you are not as powerful as you look, or you're not as good as you claim to be. And that's the racism I'm talking about.

If he were white, he would not be in this position. It is because that these kids -- Danny Almonte had the gall, again, to dream about, you know, making it big in the big leagues, that they will try to take him down from now.

ROSENHAUS: Peter, those aren't the same interracial...

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: ... young people who went to war. You know, young people who lied about their ages and went to war...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENHAUS: Let's just deal with the facts...

NOEL: ... and what did they do. They came back as heroes...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENHAUS: ... this is a young man who's got a lot of talent...

NOEL: ... because they lied about their ages.

BATTISTA: Please, hold on.

ROSENHAUS: But he has to be accountable regardless of his race, creed or color. You have to deal with the rules in this country or anywhere else.

NOEL: Well, we have to know ...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call here from...

ROSENHAUS: It's not fair!

BATTISTA: ...Lee in Nevada.

Go ahead, Lee.

CALLER: Hey, Bobbie, thanks. First off, I was a little league pitcher, and when I was that age, 12, I was about 6 feet tall. And I -- almost every game that we went to we had to produce my birth certificate -- I'm a white guy -- we had to produce my birth certificate because teams would not play, and I was a pitcher, because of my size.

I think that Peter supports a lot of good issues, but when he comes out on issues like this and does not stand behind what is really the truth, he shows his ignorance.

NOEL: No, I'm not backing what's wrong. I'm simply saying that there's another factor in this whole case. What is motivating people who try to out Danny Almonte and his group? I say it's racism.

ROSENHAUS: I say the story here -- the story, Peter, is not about who was trying to expose the young man.

NOEL: That's the story.

ROSENHAUS: The issue, in my opinion...

NOEL: That is the story.

ROSENHAUS: No, no, no. The issue is that in sports in this country, particularly little leaguers, let's deal with teamwork, sportsmanship, leadership, integrity, honesty. It's not just about winning. You see?

NOEL: It is about winning!

ROSENHAUS: It's not just about finding the best player...

NOEL: Wait, wait, wait. Which country are you living in? Which country are you living in?

ROSENHAUS: ... and cheating. We can not cheat though...

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: This is America. Which country are you living in? It's a part of the American culture.

ROSENHAUS: ... that doesn't make it right. That doesn't make it right. You are setting a bad example, though.

NOEL: It's about winning.

BATTISTA: You know what, Drew, and Peter's right in the sense that we always say we want sports to be about all of those wonderful, admirable things, and it is -- it ends up always being about winning.

NOEL: Yes, because you have fathers...

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENHAUS: You have to make an adjustment there. That's not good. That's one thing...

NOEL: You go to some of these games that...

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: Drew, drew, listen to this.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: One at a time, here. ROSENHAUS: We are talking about the Little League. This isn't the NFL. This isn't about winning where guys are getting paid. These are kids that are going out and playing a game because they love it. If you start cheating and start making excuses for that, you're destroying the American dream here.

BATTISTA: Evidently, you guys -- let me read this. I just got this e-mail from Joe in Naples, Florida, because, evidently, it starts young, and it goes all the way up into the major leagues. She says, "My husband is from the Dominican Republic and came to this country many years ago to play baseball. His age was changed on his birth certificate. Also you need to check more people in the major leagues. I'm quite sure their birthdays are incorrect. This is also a problem for people who are older and are living in the United States, because, for example, their papers say they are 39, and they're really 44, and now they must work longer for Social Security."

Not that they will do that.

Carmen -- let me ask Carmen about that. Are the allegations she's making true, or do you think that there are a lot of guys in the minor and major leagues that are not the age they say they are?

FELICIANO: That probably has some truth to it. I have known of cases where a team has signed a kid thinking that he was 17, and they found out, a couple of months later, that he was 24. But they just renewed the contract.

BATTISTA: It's not right then, but why are we picking on this Little League kid -- if this is going on all through the minor and major leagues?

FELICIANO: I think the case in here, the fact, it's just that age -- if he would have been younger -- if he would have been, let's say, a 10-year-old playing with a 12-year-olds, I don't think they would have these big to-dos right now.

ROSENHAUS: The issue is -- first of all, let me state that the young man should be congratulated for his ability -- let's not forget that.

FELICIANO: I agree with that.

ROSENHAUS: No. 1. But No. 2, we have to find a way that to make sure that these age disrespects don't take place and are not condoned. It just destroyed the Little League World Series. That's the real shame, because that's a great institution.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break, Darren. I'll get to your comment when we come back, and Coleman, on the phone.

We'll be back in just a sec.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Thirty-five million kids between the ages of 5 and 18 have played Little League since it was founded in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, in 1939. Today, Little League has participants in 105 countries around the world and is considered the world's largest youth sports program.

Lisa was just saying that she feels that the 14-year-old kid should be held accountable also because he know his own age, and even if he was being pressured by adults, he should have known better and gone against them

That's a lot of pressure to put on a 14-year-old.

Darren, your comment.

ROSENHAUS: What arena in America is more culturally, racially diverse than athletics? If this were really the case, Pete Rose's situation would have been brushed under the table: He's white, he's famous, he's got everything going -- then that would have been pushed under, if it were all a race thing. Then why go after Pete Rose -- he's everyone's favorite? But they went after him because he cheated. He was a great player, but he cheated, and he had to face the facts for his actions -- just like this.

If you are looking at something else, whatever, but baseball, athletics, are racially diverse as anything else.

BATTISTA: Let me take a call from Coleman in Kentucky.

COLEMAN: I just think that it does have to do with race. I think that it is an American ingrained -- almost -- fear of successful minorities, that when we achieve something that is great, as this young man has done and as the William sisters have done, then it becomes a race thing, it becomes a mind-set that they are successful because of this. Or if we are successful, then we're gone after because of that success.

ROSENHAUS: Well, here's the bottom line.

FELICIANO: I am a minority and I really don't agree with that, because the rules are rules, and if they say we are going to have 12- year-olds playing, we should all obey by the rules. It's because I am Puerto Rican or the guy's Dominican.

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: I believe that we should investigate the entire Little Leagues and all of these other people who are playing them. There are other young white kids who, I believe, may have deflated their ages. Do we go all the way back and do it?

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: Let's investigate them too. Let's start all over.

ROSENHAUS: What they should do is examine every player who has a questionable age.

NOEL: And what should happen then?

ROSENHAUS: If they find anybody-- it doesn't matter what race, what color -- who's overage, they should be kicked out. They should not be allowed to play, no matter what color. If you don't follow the rules, you get penalized, and no one should be treated differently, under any circumstance.

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: How many young white kids will be investigated in this? How many white kids will be investigated?

BATTISTA: I think a lot of people worry more about the physical aspects of a 14-year-old playing with a bunch of 10- and 12-year-olds.

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENHAUS: It really would be amazing and a travesty if you do allow someone who is significantly older, particularly at that age, to compete against other kids.

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: ... is one of the skinniest guys in the league. He is skinny. He has a powerful arm.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience on this one -- Courtney.

COURTNEY: I don't think it has anything to do with race. I've played a lot of sports in my life. My brother plays baseball. Whenever there's anyone who's so much better than the rest of the team, you always look at birth certificates. Everyone knows -- black or white, any race. If you can't produce a birth certificate that is satisfactory, it's going to bring up issues, despite race.

ROSENHAUS: Look at what's happened here, guys. Now we have the entire Little League institution, which has had, literally, millions of kids benefit from it -- now it has got a black eye. This is really sad, that the Little Leagues are getting hammered here, because they're not following the rules. And you have to investigate when people aren't.

NOEL: But let's see how many young white kids will be investigated by this.

ROSENHAUS: They should then. You know what, sir?

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I think you guys are agreeing -- I'm going to end it there because you are agreeing that they should be investigated and something should be done.

Carmen Feliciano and Drew Rosenhaus, thank you both very much for joining us. Peter Noel will be staying with us.

In a moment, Venus and Serena Williams, star sisters, but a less- than-stellar relationship with women's tennis. What's race got to do with that?

We'll find out when we come back.

The Williams sisters have won a total of 28 tournaments and four majors in their tennis careers. Last year, they made $17.5 million between them. Venus, who won Wimbledon in July, is ranked fourth in the world. Serena is ranked 10th.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: We are back. Venus and Serena, the sister act in women's professional tennis that some people love to hate. Admire them or not, they play the game their way when they want, how they want and as often as they want.

What is it about these two women that gets under the skin of some opponents and fans alike? Joining us first this half hour is Bill Saporito, editor at large for "TIME" magazine, where the Williams sisters are this week's cover girls. Bill, thanks for joining us.

BILL SAPORITO, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Let me let you take a whack at that question. What is it about these two that rivals folks so much?

SAPORITO: They have different game. They came on scene sort of out of nowhere. They don't behave by the same rules. And they are part-time players up until this point and they are really, really good. So they have upset the apple cart.

BATTISTA: Who is criticizing them and why?

SAPORITO: Other players. In fact, the whole women's tour is sort of interesting in that there is a -- the players don't generally like each other. Martina Hingis, for instance, has sort of accused the tour of reverse discrimination and she has said that the Williams sisters have gotten endorsements because they are black, and they get away with things. So you have this sort of attitude out there right now.

BATTISTA: In fact, we are have that quote. As you say, she was quoted in your article saying the following, and we will quote verbatim here so we do not do her a disservice, "Being black only helps them. Many times they get sponsors because they are black and they have had a lot of advantages because they can always say, 'it's racism.' They can always come back and say, 'because we are this color, things happen.'"

She was asked about this recently at a tournament and sort of backed off from it a little bit so we will play that response now for you on tape. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTINA HINGIS, TENNIS PRO: I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings with that but I think at the time I meant it probably not always in the same way, but I think I was right at that time but it doesn't mean it is against everybody. I just maybe said something which was not politically correct. But I don't' know. I don't' know all the laws all the rules that are going on in this country, so if you expect that from me, it's too much, I'm sorry if I hurt anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: It's not the just youngsters, Bill. Martina Navratilova also said that she felt that they were treated with kid gloves and that people were afraid to criticize them because they would be perceived as racist, correct?

SAPORITO: Absolutely. And Martina speaks from a perspective of -- she is familiar with discrimination. She is lesbian, so she comes at it from that viewpoint. I think her principle criticism was that they are not part of the gang.

They are not contributing to the whole tour, that they should dedicate themselves to tennis a little bit more, because again, they have decided that they are not going to play, at least up until now, that they are not going to play every tournament. And Martina thinks, hey, you have this gift, you have this opportunity to be great at tennis for only so long so why not dedicate yourself to it.

BATTISTA: As far as being part of gang, there has certainly been guys in particular in the past in the history of tennis who haven't necessarily played by the rules. Andre Agassi comes to mind, or John McEnroe.

SAPORITO: Well, this is part of the beauty of the women's game right now. First of all, they are more popular than the men and they are more popular for two reasons. One is that their game is really watchable right now. It's great entertainment. And two, they are great entertainment. The personalities are lively. They say things sometimes that they shouldn't, you know, that is what makes them interesting.

BATTISTA: I guess a question though is, if they were white, would we be having this discussion?

SAPORITO: I think we would have -- we would be having part of this discussion, yes. Because they are not, you know, they came on to this scene to play basically by their own rules. So they are different and they are interesting kids too. I mean, they have a life outside of tennis. They're interested in fashion design and they go to school every autumn to do that. Now, that's sort of interesting.

BATTISTA: Let me bring Steve Malzberg into the conversation. He is a conservative radio talk show host on WABC and a columnist at Newsmax.com. And Peter Noel is still with us, by the way, from the "Village Voice." Steve, two days in a row here. Nice to see you again.

STEVE MALZBERG, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Is that a record? I hope so.

BATTISTA: Are you trying to move in on my job here or what?

(LAUGHTER)

MALZBERG: No.

BATTISTA: Do you think this criticism of the Williams sisters, is it fair?

MALZBERG: Well, I think the criticism from Martina Navratilova, that they have a gift, they should play all the tournaments, stuff like that, that's their business, and there's no place for Martina Navratilova to say that. That's, you know, up to the individual. But I have to say, as talented as they are and as good as they are, in a way for women's tennis and tennis overall -- because tennis, let's face it, has gotten boring as all heck. There are no personalities. And when they came along, all of a sudden there were personalities, there are personalities.

However, there is a tradition in the game of tennis. You don't dis your opponent, you don't refuse to shake hands. You don't throw temper tantrums, unless you're Jock McEnroe or some of the other men in past years. I mean, they were new on the scene and, as the writer from "TIME" said, they were going to play by their own rules.

They also have a father who, unfortunately, has ruffled a lot of feathers. He's made several statements which many consider antisemitic, antiwhite. When, after one of the them beat one of their opponents, the father said of the opponent -- I think it might have been Martina Hingis or someone else -- "She has to have an operation, they should chop her legs off and make them longer and make her lose weight, she's a pig. I mean, this kind of stuff is just disgusting, disgraceful, and I wish the sisters somehow would disassociate themselves from their father. That would be a big help and a big step in the right direction.

BATTISTA: Peter, is there just a lot of resentment out there because they don't play by the rules, and is that fair?

NOEL: Listen,, of course there is resentment. I believe they should listen to their father. He's the one who got them there. They played the game in a different way, and what upsets people like Steve is that, you know, he had a different type of game, that he somehow didn't come into the same way that they would hit the ball, the same way they would think about hitting the ball. And that upset the blue bloods of Kabbaus (ph)who sit around running commentaries, saying that, hey, these two young, black poor girls are out of their place in this really white world of professional tennis.

MALZBERG: No. NOEL: Wait a minute, Steve. The issue is here: ever since they rose up from the ghetto and start defeating these powerful hitters in women's (UNINTELLIGIBLE), everybody is saying something is wrong with these kids. Why are they so good? We need to get some way to say that they should not be as good as they are.

MALZBERG: John McEnroe was a disgrace on the court. At times, Jimmy Connors, at times, Ilie Nastase. But McEnroe, especially, because he would verbally abuse the officials. It was interesting, it was theatrics, it was great, but he was a disgraceful character on the court. So are the Williams sisters at times, although they don't go to the extent that McEnroe used to do consistently. But the father and the actions by the girls...

SAPORITO: Let's keep the father out of this. I mean, these kids, they haven't Johnny Mac-like on the court. They've been just dominant. I mean, they just beat everybody.

MALZBERG: But they disrespect their opponents very often. They're not shaking hands. It's not right. I just said, you don't shake your opponent's hand...

NOEL: They have a right, if they feel that they've played a good game, if they feel crappy after playing a bad game, they have a right. You know, yes, there's a certain kind of gentlemen way in which you do things, but if they feel bad at times, they still have a right to shake hands. What's wrong with that?

BATTISTA: We'll take a break and continue here in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: E-mails coming in. Vicky in Atlanta says: "The Williams sisters deserve respect. They are phenomenal. I find their treatment by the media vulgar. Whether you like them or not, they have opened the door and more will follow."

Brian in Washington says: "The Williams sisters do have an attitude. That's what the problem is. And having a dad doing his little dance and making his speeches hurts the sisters in the eyes of the public."

On the phone with us, Dorice (ph), go ahead.

CALLER: OK. You talk about the Williams sisters. John McEnroe was one of the most repulsed tennis players out there, but he didn't care whether people liked him or not. He came to win. OK, and the Williams sisters, they may have a problem in the terms of their father, but so did -- wasn't her name Mary Pierce? Didn't her father cause problems also?

In this country, we need to stop going after people and start celebrating their achievements. This is what's wrong with the country now. We're too busy drawing up dividing lines, looking at people in terms of what they achieved and being proud of what they do.

BATTISTA: All right, Dorice, thank you. Jeff is also on the phone. Jeff, go ahead.

CALLER: Yes. Sometimes it's not white people who can't get past blacks, it's blacks who can't get past blacks. They always seem to have the excuse if you're black and a jerk, you're not liked not because you are jerk, it's because you're black. Sometimes you're actually not liked because you're a jerk! I mean, you can be black and a jerk and not be liked.

MALZBERG: Well, I agree. And that's why when Peter says, you know, these sisters have upset people like me, blue-blooded. For crying out loud! I'm a city kid from Brooklyn. I was -- I despise John McEnroe, he's white. I mean, there's no difference in color. I don't see their color. I see the way they act, which isn't as bad as McEnroe, but I see the father, and I think the other caller or the e- mail might have been right. The father adds to their perception, and it's a negative, negative perception.

SAPORITO: But there are plenty of crazy dads and moms in tennis. I mean, this is sort of par for the course here.

MALZBERG: But they don't berate opponents, they don't make anti- semitic statements.

SAPORITO: No, they just turn up drunk or they start screaming at...

BATTISTA: Right, or they steal their kid's money or, you know, whatever.

NOEL: I don't believe that Richard made any anti-Semitic remarks. I believe that he has pretty much perfected the kind of response that some people will like to here. This is all about the game. What is a game without some sort of controversy?

When Dennis Rodman plays the game, he comes on with his hair in different colors, he says different things. It's part of the NBA, it's part of, you know, people come to see a show! If Richard made some comments and people jump out of their skin because they don't think he should play amateur psychologist for his kid. He shouldn't say, hey, if they say that Serena shouldn't wear the color purple, something's wrong with that. Why is she wearing purple? Why do they have their hair like that? Why are they walking in such a way? Why do they have this particular swagger? I mean, it's nonsense!

MALZBERG: Peter, then don't call this racism.

NOEL: That is racism! So why are you calling it anti-semitism?

(CROSSTALK)

MALZBERG: How is it racism?

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience on this -- Pamela, what do you think?

PAMELA: I think it's a case of jealousy. NOEL: Martina had her 15 minutes of fame, when she got all the endorsements, and now someone has come and upseated her, and they're getting all the endorsements. They're getting them because they're good, they're talented. They're good at what they do, and America embraces that.

SAPORITO: I think that's a great point. No one gets endorsements unless the sponsor thinks they can move product. So that's nothing to do color. It has to do with can you play, can you can move the product.

BATTISTA: Bill, let me ask you about something else, this criticism that the commentators have been under for the way they analyze the games played by the Williams sisters? There seems to be this perception or reality that they aren't as fair in their analysis of how they play the game, that it's all about brawn, muscle and power.

SAPORITO: But that's what the game is now. Martina Navratilova brought this game to women's tennis, and it's a great change. She said, we can be stronger, we can play a power game.

Remember the game before her? It was this marshmallow game where players would volley endlessly -- they bored us to death. Martina took it the first step, and the Williams sisters have said this is a great game. We like this game. And we're great at it. And the game is much better for it.

NOEL: But you know what? When the Williams sisters started looking very strong, people were portraying them as having lardy buttocks, arms the size of tree trunks, hind legs the size of supertall red fillies -- they're saying they were slaves and the slaves were bred to be superathletes. And it's the same way, and there's all kinds of racist nonsense to equate with these kids, who have natural talents.

(CROSSTALK)

NOEL: Calm down about what? It is true.

(CROSSTALK)

MALZBERG: You're making a big leap -- a big leap, Peter.

NOEL: They're saying that they're superbetter athletes. Come on!

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

We have a couple of minutes left here, so let me go to Brad, in the audience, first -- Brad.

BRAD: I think the Williams sisters have got a lot of negative publicity because they are different, because they didn't grow up the same way that other tennis players did, because they want to have a life outside of tennis and do other things. I think that has given them a lot of negative publicity. The thing is that those differences that they bring have really helped to propel women's tennis, and that is the reason why women's tennis is outdrawing men's tennis significantly.

BATTISTA: Can't argue with that -- Steve.

MALZBERG: I think they're great for the game of tennis, on the women's side and overall. To say that they got negative coverage and publicity, why, because they go to school outside of the game. It's not what they do outside of the game, it's what they do sometimes on the court. Again, I go back to their father. Attacking opponents verbally like that is disgraceful.

BATTISTA: Peter?

NOEL: I was waiting for Steve to finish, and I thought he had something coming. This mocking devaluation is a mocking evaluation of their talents, and this is wrong. You hear it in the comment of some of these sportscasters: They don't talk about the mental toughness of Venus and Serena, They talk about the mental toughness of their white opponents. They say, Oh, they are strong, and Venus and Serena are strong, and that's what gets them through the game. I believe that is nonsense and so racist.

And every time Richard, their father, would somehow would hint at the fact that this game is just as racist as a lot of things in the country, people want to call him an anti-Semites.

MALZBERG: It's so racist that they are millionaires -- that's how racist it is: They are millionaires.

BATTISTA: That will have to be the last word. We're out of time.

Bill Saporito, thank you for joining us. Steve Malzberg and Peter Noel, I appreciate both of you coming in today.

Earlier, by the way, we talked about the Little League pitching phenom Daniel Almonte and whether his age should affect the outcome of his team's World Series standing, and we asked our online audience should Little League revoke the "Baby Bombers" their win. Eighty-one percent say yes, and 19 percent say no.

Thank you so much for being with us.

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