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CNN Talkback Live

Did Angry Motorists Contribute to Woman's Suicide Attempt?

Aired August 30, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's terrible. Why is it closed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: A 26-year-old woman threatens to jump from a Seattle interstate bridge, tying up rush hour traffic more than three and a half hours. Eventually, frustrated motorists turn angry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They urged her to jump, and calling her names, and that's the reason we ended up shutting down northbound traffic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: The woman finally jumps 160 feet into a canal. She's expected to recover from her injuries. But did those angry motorists push her over the edge? Should the city feel remorse?

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

We will get to the Seattle suicide attempt in just a moment, but first, after 10 days of intense searching, Ukrainian immigrant Nikolay Soltys is behind bars. Barefoot, dirty and shabby, Soltys was arrested this morning at his mother's home after terrified members of his family called police. Soltys is accused of stabbing six members of his family to death, including his pregnant wife, a 3-year-old son, two young cousins and an aunt and an uncle.

Joining us off the top here is Candice DeLong, former head field profiler for the FBI, and in Citrus Heights, a Sacramento suburb, Jane McCarthy, a reporter with KXTV out there.

Jane, let me start with you. How did all of this unfold this morning?

JANE MCCARTHY, KXTV REPORTER: Actually, it was early this morning, around 8:30 this morning. Nikolay Soltys's own brother is actually the one who called police. The family was under surveillance by sheriff's deputies. They ran out into a car, the sheriff's deputies, followed them, and apparently the families went to a local business, where they called 911, and that's when sheriff's deputies moved in. They found Soltys in his mother's backyard, under a desk, and he was filthy, and they took him into custody I guess without incident.

BATTISTA: Did he just suddenly show up at his mother's house after all this time, or is there some thought that perhaps, family members might have been harboring him?

MCCARTHY: Well, he was dirty, as I mentioned, so that led police to believe that he hadn't been with someone. They felt that he had been outside for all of 10 days, and also the way the family ran out of the house, they ran out very quickly, and called 911, as if they just saw him at that moment.

BATTISTA: Candice, are you surprised after all of this searching, that he actually turned up in his mother's backyard?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER. FBI PROFILER: No one has to assume in a situation like this, especially with someone who appears to be mentally unstable, and the tremendous publicity on this case, he wasn't going to get any help unless he were to take a hostage, and so he was going where he felt he was safe and possibly could get some assistance, and unfortunately, it didn't go his way.

BATTISTA: Yes, because it was family members who did turn him in. Is that unusual?

DELONG: No, no. Actually, oftentimes family members will help police and FBI agents in apprehending fugitives, and this man is very dangerous, and certainly his family has every reason to fear him, as well as the community.

BATTISTA: Jane, they suspect or believe he probably never really left the area there. Why did they think that?

MCCARTHY: Well, there were several sightings actually across the United States -- sightings in Tennessee, North Carolina -- but there were more sightings that police were taking as credible sightings here in the Sacramento area, and there were so many of them that they thought perhaps he hadn't left. Plus, he was on "America's Most Wanted," the television show. They thought his face was so well known that he probably couldn't move across the country any longer.

BATTISTA: And we understand it, there was a lot of cooperation from the Ukrainian community out there, correct?

MCCARTHY: Yes, there were, people in the Ukrainian community helping police, not only with translation, but keeping their eyes peeled, and they had said, we are the last people that would harbor Soltys, we want him caught more than anyone.

BATTISTA: And, Candice, at the news conference a few moments ago, we heard the police talk about the cooperation between all the police agencies involved, as well as the press and the public. This is an example how all of this can work very well. DELONG: Yes, this was a crowd pleaser, the way this went down, and in only 10 days apprehend such a dangerous fugitive, I thought it was excellent police work.

BATTISTA: As a former FBI profiler, did Nikolay Soltys fit a certain profile?

DELONG: Well, if he was truly responsible for the crimes he's been accused of, he what's called a family annihilator, and I did have experience with people who've committed these kinds of crimes when I was psychiatric nurse, before I became an FBI agent, and, you know, they're difficult cases to deal with.

BATTISTA: What eventually sends them over the edge? Is it anything specific?

DELONG: It's hard to say. It varies. Sometimes the individual is suffering a mental illness. Sometimes paranoid. He kills his family because he believes they are in danger, and so he is protecting them by actually taking them out of this cruel world. Sometimes that's the reason that it's done, and sometimes the individual actually feels his family members are against him, and he has to kill them first before they get him. I don't really know -- we don't know yet what his motives were for doing this, but I'm sure we'll find out.

BATTISTA: Jane, what you can fill in for us about his family and his background?

MCCARTHY: Well, he had been in the Ukraine until couple of years ago. We heard reports he had trouble in the Ukraine. We heard police were talking about him having a possible criminal background, and authorities saying, frankly, the fact his family called police so quickly is testimony to the fact they no longer trusted him and feared for their own lives.

BATTISTA: Candice, there was a reward involved for the capture of this guy. How much of an incentive does that provide for folks?

DELONG: Well, I worked cases that had huge reports. I worked on the Unabomber case, and there was a large reward there. Also the Tylenol murders back in 1982 had a large reward. Sometimes the rewards just get in the way. My understanding is that there were 900 phone calls into the task force on this particular case, and the only one turned out to be legitimate of course was the last one made this morning.

BATTISTA: We have actually one person in the audience from the Sacramento area, and, Jacqueline, you were telling us generally about the general community tension that had been going on there the last 10 days or so.

JACQUELINE: As a mother, we lived in Sacramento -- and our children, you know, we were scared for our children, because you never really knew exactly where the guy was. Nobody could tell anybody anything clearly where the guy was. My husband and I we were -- we feared for our kids. We luckily have been out of town for a couple of days, so that was helpful, but -- I'm sorry.

BATTISTA: We understand what you are saying, but you're talking about the Ukrainian community.

JACQUELINE: They're a very tight community, and they're very quiet, and it was really a shock, I think, for anybody that lived there , because you don't hear that much about the population anyway. But they're very much a tight-knit community that keeps to themselves, and you don't really hear too much about them causing any problems. So -- and the community was very supportive. As she was mentioning, the police really reached out to that community, and there was people, leaders of the Ukrainian community that was also trying to be very helpful as well. So I think that as Sacramento as a whole, everybody was in it helping out each other.

BATTISTA: Jane, what happens next now in process with Nikolay Soltys.

MCCARTHY: Well, he's been taken to the jail, and presumably will be charged with the six murders, again, murdered his pregnant wife, his young son, an aunt and uncle, and two young cousins, just nine years old. Police actually are still here on the scene collecting evidence. They want to know how long he's been here. They've been talking to neighbors. They've been telling neighbors to get inside, via a police helicopter. They want to know exactly how long he's been here, and they're going to do everything they can to get that trail, and obviously, they already have a very, very good case against him.

BATTISTA: All right, Candice DeLong and James McCarthy, thank you both very much for bringing us up to date on that story.

We're going to move on here. In a moment, the compassion and the fury -- what caused Seattle motorists to mock, curse, and urge a suicidal woman to jump from a bridge.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Would you ever encourage someone to commit suicide? It seems that is what a lot of folks did as a young woman stood on the brink of decision Tuesday in Seattle. They mocked her, they cursed her and they urged her to jump.

It's horrified a lot of people, but many of those caught in traffic say the woman should have found less traveled area to carry out her plans.

Here to talk about this with us first today is Seattle police spokesman, Officer Clem Benton.

Officer Benton, you were there at the scene of this travesty. How long was this woman out there before motorists started yelling at her?

OFC. CLEM BENTON, SEATTLE POLICE SPOKESMAN: Well, we received the call at 6:20 a.m. stating that a young lady had parked her vehicle on the bridge and was sitting on the west side railing.

We sent multiple units to respond. The freeway was partially blocked off, and this is southbound traffic.

And shortly there after the traffic was slowed down, passer biers were looking over, yelling and blowing their horns and saying "jump."

And I'm on the lighter side of things. I'm not going to say what some of the commuters said.

BATTISTA: It was pretty crass from what we understand, a lot of them.

BENTON: That's correct.

BATTISTA: And how far away were these motorists from her? In other words, these were motorists that were on the bridge, correct?

BENTON: That's correct. We're talking about four-lane freeway, again, southbound. Two lanes were blocked off, so you -- maybe we're talking about maybe 20 feet max.

BATTISTA: And because these motorists kept yelling these things at her, you guys had to shut down the highway, correct? I mean, it wasn't necessarily because of her?

BENTON: It was an excellent job from our officers. They recognized, number one, we need to build a rapport with this young lady. And because of the noise, the horns being blown, the obscenities that were shouted, they made a decision to shut down the freeway so we could build a rapport with the young lady.

BATTISTA: Well, how do you talk to someone in that kind of situation?

BENTON: You want to become a friend, if possible. Some of the things you want to ask is: What can I do for you? Is there anything I could bring you? Anyone I could call for you? Even -- you want to ask the individual if it's OK if you sit or stand or come any closer. You want to put this individual totally in control of the situation.

BATTISTA: And did you feel like you were making some progress with her? Didn't you negotiate with her for several hours?

BENTON: Our negotiators spoke with her for approximately 2 1/2 to three hours.

BATTISTA: And did you feel like you were making progress?

BENTON: You know, it was very -- it was very difficult to tell.

And sometimes these situations you build a rapport, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you feel like you are getting somewhere and there are times that you don't.

BATTISTA: Did you feel like these motorists who were yelling at her were complicating the situation or pushing her closer to that decision?

BENTON: You know, that's difficult to say. I want to say, the few motorists that did cause the ruckus on the bridge, that was just a small part of the city of Seattle. We've had numerous people -- at this time she's receiving tremendous amount of support, flowers and letters.

So what happened in this particular case we can only speculate what might have happened had we not shutdown the freeway. But we needed to do so because there was a possibility of the obscenities that were shouted affecting the communication that we were trying to establish.

BATTISTA: And when she finally did jump, then what happened?

BENTON: We had our Harbor Patrol unit from the Seattle Police Department, who was already stationed down below, they immediately recovered her from the water. We had medics standing by as well. And we transported her to Harborview Medical Center to be treated medically.

BATTISTA: And how is she doing? What's the extent of her injuries?

BENTON: The last we heard she was originally in critical condition and has been upgraded to serious at this time.

BATTISTA: How did the media react to all of this? Were they a help in the situation, or a hindrance?

BENTON: What do you mean?

BATTISTA: Well, I imagine there was television coverage of this, since it was going on during rush hour and for that long a period of time. Did that further complicate the situation for you, or did they use some restraint?

BENTON: Well, obviously, you had concerned motorists, because a lot of them didn't realize what was going on. The misunderstanding came when the first few motorists came by and obviously the obscenities that were shouted, but basically it was a lockdown in the city of Seattle as far as going southbound on I-5.

And we had the media there, they were doing everything they possibly could to get the message out that we had police activity on the bridge and that we would be complete as soon as possible.

Obviously, when we have these types of situations, we're a public safety agency, we're going to value life, number one, over inconveniencing a few commuters. Though we sympathize and we did sympathize with them, we had to made a command decision. We did so in the benefit of life.

BATTISTA: At the same time, I kind of get the feeling that what you're saying between the minutes there, because you guys as police officers see a lot of not so nice stuff. BENTON: That's correct.

BATTISTA: But that you guys were pretty appalled by this.

BENTON: Originally we were. Again, we see all sides of society that a normal citizen wouldn't see. But based on the situation that was at hand at that particular time, yes, we were a little -- maybe upset -- I use the word "upset" -- that we would get that kind of response when were trying to deal with a young lady that's obviously in some type of crisis situation.

BATTISTA: Officer Clem Benton, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate your time.

BENTON: You're welcome.

BATTISTA: In a moment, can you think of any reason for motorists to curse and mock suicidal woman? Would you actually do something like that?

We'll continue here right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right. We're back, and some e-mails. J.M. in Ontario says: "The crowd yelling, "Jump!" is disgusting, but only goes to prove the collective mentality of a crowd is no higher than that of its lowest member.

Steve in Johnston, Rhode Island says: "This select group of people in Seattle just set the human race back about 50 years.

Joining us now, Carl Jeffers, a columnist with "The Seattle Times."

CARL JEFFERS, "SEATTLE TIMES" COLUMNIST: Hi, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Hi, good to see you, Carl.

JEFFERS: Good to see you again.

BATTISTA: Ian Punnett is with us, a seminarian and talk show host heard weekly across North America in Coast-to-Coast AM. And on the phone with us is Ronald Maris, director of the center for the study of suicide at the University of South Carolina in Columbia.

Ian, let me start with you because I'm having a hard time comprehending this, but I just don't know what would cause people to react...

IAN PUNNETT, WGST RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I don't think we should be surprised. In many respects, I think this is totally normal. As shocking as that may sound, I think every day on the roads across America, commuters put other people's lives at risk so that they can be home six feet faster than the person next to them. We have people that die every year that pretty much totals up to the number of men and women we lost during the Vietnam conflict. And we lose them every year from avoidable car accidents, because commuters just feel like it's so much more important that they get where they're going that they so often create circumstances where other people die.

And I don't think, I mean, as sad as it sounds, I just don't think it's is shocking that commuters here would be screaming to somebody to get out of their way so that they can go on with their lives.

BATTISTA: Let me get the doctor's perspective on this. Ronald, this impatience with people, you know, who are about to possibly commit suicide, here. Where does that come from?

RONALD MARIS, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF SUICIDE: Well, part of it is that these people are intentionally putting themselves and other people at risk, and inconveniencing others. Usually when somebody has a public intervention, it's because they unintentionally were injured by some outside force. So there's impatience. If you're in a busy emergency room and somebody comes in with a suicide injury or wound, they're taking up space and time unnecessarily. I think that's part of the conception.

The other part, I think, is something more subtle, which is a lot of the people that are suicides are on some level perceived to be misfits, social and personal misfits. And the feeling kind of is, I suspect, that society and the world might be better off if their genes were eliminated from the gene pool.

BATTISTA: Oh, my.

PUNNETT: You don't believe that, doctor, you just think that's the way some people feel?

MARIS: I think that there are a lot of people that do believe that. These are people with chronic depression. These are people with chronic interpersonal problems. These are people with chronic substance abuse problems. And often they have been helped and tried to be helped many, many times over a long period of what I call suicidal careers, and quite frankly, a lot helping, a lot of social reaction is "enough already." And they don't necessarily want them to jump, but they want them to make up their mind, do something. Stop being indecisive. And one of the characteristics of any suicide is a high amount of ambivalence.

BATTISTA: Is that acceptable in our society today, Ian? I mean, maybe the state of affairs, but...

PUNNETT: I don't think that's acceptable, and I think that we have to take a stand on that as a community. And I think that I've heard some rumblings of that coming out of Seattle as well, that they're saying we cannot tolerate this, we cannot accept that type of behavior toward somebody in crisis. We can't devalue somebody's life, even one person's life, without devaluing all of the community's life.

BATTISTA: Let me bring Carl into this. I know there's been a lot of talk about this up in Seattle. I know the city is collectively feeling guilty, but there are a lot of folks out there who say this woman should not have picked a public venue, and looked at how many hours out of my life she took. What is the feeling up there?

JEFFERS: Well, Bobbie, I'm glad you phrased it in that perspective, that people are saying how many hours out of my life that she took. Because notwithstanding what the doctor said, and I'm certainly not going to comment or question his scientific conclusions, I'm not sure that any of the people who were part of the melee of screamers and hawkers were taking the time to evaluate whether or not they wanted to rid the gene pool of undesirables and so forth.

I think it is a much more simplistic explanation for all of this. I believe that over the last 10 years our country has suffered a deterioration, and a complete breakdown of basic civility and people understanding how it is to interact with each other and to respect one another. And because of that, and frankly, our political institutions and the media must accept their share of blame for this because we encourage this kind of breakdown by the way that we support and salute confrontation.

Whether it is on talk shows, whether it is in the media, people have their own agendas now and there's no understanding of even creating an environment where we can respectfully disagree. So what happens is we get in a situation like this, and for everybody in America today now it is about my world, and I get to the bridge, and she is there jumping, and it is three hours, and I need to get to work, it is not about her world, it is about she is interrupting my world.

And people need to understand that people have problems and people need to have time to deal with that problem, and the compassion that is so missing now is something that was there before, and the fact that there were so many people in Seattle who responded the way they did is an indictment of the society values that we have lost.

PUNNETT: I have to say, there is a huge difference here between compassion and civility. This is not a breakdown in civility. This situation would not be any better if they yelled jump, please! This is not a matter of politeness, this a matter of that they had concluded long ago in their lives, these commuters' lives, that people can die as far as they are concerned, as long as they are not getting in their way.

It doesn't matter that they waited until that second to decide whether or not they wanted to rid the world of the gene pool, they made that conclusion a long time ago. You don't just start spontaneously yelling jump, and throwing obscenities at a person in crisis if you haven't been thinking like that a lot longer in your life.

JEFFERS: Bobbie, if I may just interject here, the people who were yelling "jump" it wasn't a question of them formulating values from a time before, that is a break down of civility, because if you live in a society...

BATTISTA: I need to interrupt, Carl. We need to go quickly to Lou on the newsdesk for an update on a story -- Lou.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BATTISTA: All right, we got interrupted a couple times here but I just got an e-mail from Lynn in Washington who says, "The woman could have just done it right away, got it over with, but no. If I had actually seen her sitting there on the bridge I would have urged her to jump too." And I am like, God forbid it is someone in your family sitting on that bridge. Do you think Lynn would feel that way?

PUNNETT: And here is a comment a couple days after event, after the event has already been hashed out. This again, is not a sample of, you know, incivility. This is a sample of just where some people are when it comes on to human life and that, vis-a-vis, they are having to get to work or they are having to make whatever their next appointment is. And it is a tragedy but it is just not that unusual. It goes on all over the place.

BATTISTA: Who died and made their life more important than someone else's?

JEFFERS: Bobbie, I find it very difficult to accept that we could say that this is just not unusual. First of all, we are doing the show today on this issue. The media in Seattle has given this expensive coverage and there has been national coverage.

The police have dealt with this issue as a major issue. That's because it is not that common. It is not that usual. This is a unique situation because of the fact there has been a sea change in the attitude of people about their interactions with other civilians and other citizens of the country.

You know, Bobbie, in the segment leading into this, I have been watching the e-mails that show up on the screen coming in from your viewers, and I was specifically looking at the comparison, percentage- wise. About 20 percent of all of your e-mails have been people saying that they wish she had gone ahead and jumped, or that they felt she was creating a major problem.

Bobbie, that is not -- that is not a typical, common experience that we can write off as being just where people are today in America. You have to look at what has caused this tremendous, significant change in our attitudes about how we deal with each other, how we respect each other.

And I believe that we have look at the civility factor as one in terms of us putting ourselves and our own agendas ahead of everything else at the expense of respect for other people. And when you look at what could have caused this, you have to come back to the kind of society we live in where everyone's agenda is more important than anyone else's. And it's kind of, my world, not your.

BATTISTA: Right. Let me break away for just a moment here to get an update on this women. She jumped 160 feet off this bridge, as you know, and she did suffer a spinal fracture, as well as chest and abdominal injuries. On the phone with us here quickly is Marsha Rule, spokeswoman at Harborview Medical Center.

Marsha, thank you very much for your time. How is she doing? What's her condition?

MARSHA RULE, HARBORVIEW MEDICAL CENTER: She's in serious condition today.

BATTISTA: And the extent of her injuries?

RULE: I think you just recorded them. It's spinal fracture and chest and abdominal.

BATTISTA: Now, as I understand it, you've had quite an outpouring of sympathy. it's the other side of this story. But the day after this happened the hospital, as I understand it, was inundated with phone calls and flowers and thing. Is that correct?

RULE: Yes, we've had a tremendous outpouring of messages and well-wishes from throughout the country, actually -- flowers, cards, balloons, e-mails, Beanie Babies. It's been tremendous.

BATTISTA: Have you ever seen anything like that before?

RULE: Well, being a trauma center, actually we have. We treat unusual circumstances all the time. That's one of the things we're known for. I think in light of public reaction, I think it's really wonderful that people are coming forth to show their support of this woman.

BATTISTA: And she is expect to survive her injuries, right?

RULE: I can't comment on that.

BATTISTA: All right. Marsha Rule, we know you're very busy; thanks very much...

RULE: Thank you.

BATTISTA: ... for bringing us up to date.

And we'll take a break here and continue right after this.

Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death in the United States, killing 30,000 people each year. More than 650,000 make the attempt. The state of Nevada has the greatest number of suicides on average.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me bring the doctor back into this -- Ronald Maris there at the suicide center. I just got an e-mail from Amanda in Wisconsin who says: "It seems that this woman chose the freeway because it was a public place. This was her cry for help. Deep inside, she didn't want to jump, she wanted help. The last thing she needed was people screaming at her. I wonder if those people would have reacted differently if it was their mother, brother, sister or daughter on that bridge."

Somebody else sent us an e-mail that mentioned, you know, this woman was just, you know, trying to get attention; that's why she picked a public place. Why do people choose public places to commit suicide?

MARIS: First of all, suicide in public is very rare; 2 percent of all suicides are ever witnessed. Usually it's done in the privacy of your home.

And I think people have overlooked the fact that part of what's going on here is you don't know how to behave in unusual situations. I mean, I once sat on the ledge of the 34th floor of the Hyatt-Regency in San Francisco, and I can tell you all my education, all my training did not prepare me for that moment. So you don't -- often it's just you're not quite sure how to behave in an unusual situation.

The other thing I want to say is that this is not just narcissism. This is forced compassion. This is like the drunk in the New York City in the bowery who spits on my windshield and then asks for money to clean it off. It's like the alcoholic schizophrenic homeless man who is basically saying, can spare a life? I mean, this is not just a matter of compassion. There's a lot of narcissism on the part of the jumper, who's interfered with a lot of people's lives.

And the other question here is, would compassion help? We're not sure that if we had behaved perfectly well that this would have kept her from jumping. And it would be interesting to see what happens. We'll forget about woman and whether she goes on to have a self- destructive life, maybe even eventually killing herself.

So this is a very complicated issue. This is not a simple issue about being compassionate. Of course people get angry and frustrated; that's obvious. But this is much more complicated than we're making it.

PUNNETT: I'm a little bit worried, though, because I think one of the things we're losing in this discussion is that so many of these motorists were really encouraging her. It's different, even, when we say, you know, "jump." But in trying to lower her self-esteem even further by using profanity, by trying to take what's already obviously a precarious situation and make it worse...

MARIS: How do you know they were telling her to jump? How do you know that?

PUNNETT: That shows a real intent on the part of the person involved that seems to go beyond, I'm frustrated. It's a matter of just sort of a wanton disregard for somebody else's life.

MARIS: We don't know what everybody was feeling and thinking. I'll bet you the majority of the people -- the vast majority of the people were not narcissistic and saying "jump." I'll belt they just didn't say very much. BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Carol (ph) on the phone in Seattle.

Carol, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi. I was born and raised here, and I am appalled by what these people did.

However, nobody in the media is discussing the fact, if you look at these film clippings, these people who are impatient and screaming at this poor woman to jump -- they're causing the gridlock in the first place. You can't get around Seattle because of all the Microsoft and dot-commer people who refuse to carpool. The government -- nobody around here ever talks about that...

BATTISTA: So you're saying it was the commuter; it was these people that were yelling that caused the road to be shut down, so they were really defeating their own purpose there.

CALLER: Yes. And they're not indicative of the people that were born here. These are the people who have moved here and turned this place into an overdeveloped, you know, you know...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Yes.

CALLER: ... rude area. And look at all these SUVs and everything; there's one person in each one of those cars.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Brian (ph) in the audience, who's also from Seattle. Brian, would you con concur with that, or...

BRIAN: It's hard getting around, but to me that's totally over the top. We all get frustrated, but that's above and beyond. I would never even think of doing that.

I mean, I get frustrated too. In fact, traffic's bad all the time, but during the real rush hours my wife, she won't even let me drive. She has to drive because I -- "come on move; get out of the way!" But, you know, it doesn't really go beyond that. But still, I don't like driving when we're driving somewhere, so I just let her do it.

JEFFERS: Bobbie?

BATTISTA: Yes, Carl.

JEFFERS: You know, the caller just said that there was the transportation problem and the traffic problems, and I agree. And in fact, I have said that for the next mayoral election the two issues that the mayor of Seattle will have to deal with and be judged on is transportation and the race issue.

Seattle is the sixth worst -- has the sixth worst traffic congestion in the country, and the size of the city doesn't justify anywhere near that ranking. But you know what? In terms of this particular incident, I would assert that the response from the commuters might have even been worse in Philadelphia or Chicago or New York, and that in fact the response in Seattle may have been mild by comparison.

PUNNETT: How could it be worse?

JEFFERS: Because they might have even jumped out of the car even to assist her, to help her jump over, because they needed to get on to work.

PUNNETT: Oh, come on.

The point is that the entire country is faced with the dilemma of what we are suffering from, and that's what the problem is, Bobbie. It's not limited to Seattle, it's not about how many SUVs are on the road or how difficult the traffic is, it's about a nationwide breakdown.

BATTISTA: Yeah, we know about that here in Atlanta.

PUNNETT: I'll agree with that. I mean, it is -- it's certainly not -- it's not specific to Seattle, but I think it's important to point out, we are talking about SUVs or one-person occupied vehicles, or even having your wife drive. There were people in the Metrobus that were screaming "jump." They weren't even behind the wheel, and they were in mass transit, and they were still screaming "jump."

BATTISTA: I have to take a break here, we'll be back.

BATTISTA: Dr. Maris, what is it about cars that causes people to almost be invisible and regard everyone else in a vehicle around them as invisible?

MARIS: Let me just avoid that question for one second. I think the real question is not what happened on the bridge, but what put this woman on the bridge. We are assuming that what happened on the bridge is why she jumped. That's not why she jumped. Question is, what got her out on the ledge in the first place, not what happened after she got up there. I can be sitting on the bridge, you could say anything you want to me, and I wouldn't jump.

Getting back to your other question, I think cars, of course, are a place of aggression. I think you are confined. I think you are empowered in a way you wouldn't be if you didn't have a car. It's sort of like animals -- animals don't have technology, so they tend to lie on their backs and bear their soft underbelly. We have guns, which are another major factor in suicide, we have technology and machines which cause us to behave in ways we never would behave if we didn't have the technology. So I think that's a factor.

BATTISTA: And what do we do to make this better, Ian? Give us a final thought here.

PUNNETT: I think it requires leadership. It requires the leaders, the civic, the political leaders, perhaps the safety authorities in Seattle to come together and to make a point about what went wrong and what we should do, both as a community -- and start there. Just as, you know, we as people of Seattle in the future, we can't let this happen. It's not good for our soul as individuals or as the collective soul of the city. It's not good for tourism, it's not good for business, it's not good for anything.

They have to take an assertive position that says, we are going to renounce this, we are not going to find -- even if 20 percent of the people accept it, we are not going say it's OK.

BATTISTA: And then every other city out there can learn from that. You know, it's not just a Seattle problem.

Ian Punnett, thanks very much for joining us, Carl Jeffers, appreciate you being here, and Dr. Maris, we appreciate your input into this.

That's all the time that we have got. Thanks for joining us. A programming note: "LARRY KING LIVE" tonight at 9:00 Eastern, Larry will talk to Congressman Gary Condit's staff, including top aide Mike Dayton.

And we'll be back tomorrow at 3:00. Join us then.

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