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CNN Talkback Live

Free-For-All Friday

Aired September 07, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: So, is Michael Jackson still a thriller?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: You turn me complete.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think with the CD and I with Madison Square Garden thing, I think it's going to renew the Michael mania.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: "Call Me Crazy?" Anne Heche speaks out in a new book.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNE HECHE, ACTRESS: Chunas, which was my word for God. That was the joining of the female and male in God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Can this revive her career?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HECHE: And I spoke to Chunas all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And do you believe what this Georgia legislator claims?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can communicate with the dead.

It's a controversial death now. She's missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: A little odd, a little strange. It's news on the edge on today's "Free-for-All Friday."

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to "Free-for-All Friday," where this week we'll start with news of the weird and bizarre. Let's meet our guests, Martin Lewis, a political commentator and columnist. He's a contributor to time.com.

Martin, good to see you.

MARTIN LEWIS, TIME.COM: Very good to see you.

BATTISTA: Lisa Evers, host of "Street Soldiers with Lisa Evers" on WQHT-FM radio in New York.

Lisa, nice to see you.

LISA EVERS, "STREET SOLDIERS WITH LISA EVERS": Nice to see you.

BATTISTA: Kathryn Lopez, associate editor of "The National Review" and nationalreview.com.

Kathryn, nice to see you back.

KATHRYN LOPEZ, "THE NATIONAL REVIEW": Hi, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: And Armstrong Williams, a columnist and host of talk America Radio Network's "The Right Side with Armstrong Williams." His latest book is "Beyond Blame: Moving Beyond Being a Victim."

Armstrong, good to see you.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, AUTHOR, "BEYOND BLAME": Good to see you, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: All right.

Let's start with last night's MTV Awards and the return of Michael Jackson. His surprised appearance with 'NSync was basically the highlight of the night. He has a new album out. And Jackson's 30th anniversary concert tonight at Madison Square Garden is the hottest ticket in town.

CNN correspondent Bill Tush is outside the Garden right now, with the latest on that.

And, Bill, as I understand it , those tickets sold out in about an hour, so I guess there's high-level of anticipation.

BILL TUSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, everybody says the concert sold out, but what we found out, yes, they sold out, bulks of the tickets were bought by ticket brokers who then went on and sold them off, online or wherever. So in one way, yes, it was sold out, and in another way, it wasn't.

BATTISTA: Twenty-five hundred dollars for a ticket, is that right? TUSH: Twenty-eight, I think we heard. They're now up to $2,800 on the Internet just to see Michael. But we just talked to a guy here from Vancouver who paid $350, so how do you justify paying $2,800 when you don't even know if you've got a good seat.

BATTISTA: I don't know. I hope Michael Jackson has a lot of rich friends for these couple of concerts.

TUSH: They will be here tonight.

BATTISTA: This the first time in some 20-some years that he's reunited with his brothers.

TUSH: I don't know the exact length of time they've been apart. It has been a real long time. They will be there tonight. Janet Jackson won't be here. She's always out of the siblings like Michael's biggest supporter. But she's on tour.

BATTISTA: In fact, in Atlanta tomorrow night, I'm told.

TUSH: OK.

BATTISTA: Who else will be performing tonight?

TUSH: All right, let's go down the list, see if I got everybody. Britney Spears, who originally recently backed out, is now back in. We've got Marc Anthony is coming here. 'NSync is coming here. Whitney Houston and Usher, they're going to be doing the opening number, which will be "Want to be Starting Something," appropriate. And then the list goes on from there. Liza Minnelli, we saw her earlier today, she's going to be singing "Never Never Land."

BATTISTA: And the new CD, when does that come out, and what sort of advance press is it getting?

TUSH: It comes off October 30. And typical Michael Jackson, here's what he's going to do. I've been told that he's somehow managed to pull his older CDs off the record shelves, you can't get any Michael Jackson product right now. October 30 when the "Invincible" album comes out, you will get all the other stuff, too, because there'll be such a hype created. Typical Michael Jackson, there's going to be a big media blitz. His video will debut on one or two networks simultaneously.

The buzz on the album, some people say it will be huge. Some people who heard "Rock My World," which is out now, are giving it mediocre reviews.

BATTISTA: Bill Tush, thanks very much for the update. Have fun tonight.

TUSH: All right.

BATTISTA: Martin, how come when he jumped on stage last night with 'NSync, it kind of looked like he was doing the same old thing. LEWIS: Well, because he was doing the same old thing. Those are dance moves that were very cool in the 1980s, the moonwalk, and all that around, and grabbing his crotch, but frankly, you know what it's like when you have an wedding and an old uncle wants to show he can keep up with the young kids. I thought he was a little embarrassing, to be honest. But in his favor, I think you can say one thing, at least he didn't hit on any of 'NSync, so I thought that was good.

BATTISTA: Lisa, I think you can also say in his favor that his music is very good. I think everyone agrees with that, so despite all of his weird -- or is it the music? Does that just transcend everything else?

EVERS: Bobbie, I think it does -- I mean, despite his, whatever his lifestyle is, his habits, all of that, he is a phenomenal talent, and you have to give him that credit. I was out there with the fans last night. Many of them were 'NSync fans, and I think one of the things that this was for Michael Jackson, a brilliant P.R. move, because it introduced him to a whole new generation that really hasn't come to know his music the way that we have.

BATTISTA: Armstrong, did you stay up for the awards? Just checking.

WILLIAMS: I'm like you, Bobbie.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: I mean, do you think that he will have the same appeal for younger generations?

WILLIAMS: He can't. But I will tell you, Michael Jackson has -- is every life has a story, and his one has certainly been tumultuous, some of his own doing. He removed himself from the spotlight too heal the wounds.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

And we are going to talk about a couple of those more substantive topics a little bit later on in the hour. But first we're talking about some weird news of the week. And we were talking about Michael Jackson's return before we got interrupted there.

And Armstrong, we interrupted you. I'm sorry, go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, Bobbie.

You now, Michael is weird, no one can argue that. I didn't even recognize him. It's just sad what he's become. But we cannot ignore the fact that, I mean, he defined the genre; he defined it. He's a genius, a brilliant writer, a brilliant composer. He basically writes many of his songs. He deserves a chance at coming back. That's what life is about -- we're never too old. I mean, Michael gives people like myself hope that, you know, you can fall off the wagon and comes back. I hope he does well.

And I think it's also good for the industry. I hear he's placed almost $80 million into this new CD, no matter what is reported -- the number they reported was $30 million. And I like the fact that his family is really supporting him. They have seen events of animosity and tension before. People are rooting for him.

I don't think he needs all those celebrities and those stars in order to make his comeback, I think he should do it on sheer, raw talent.

BATTISTA: Kathryn, what do you think?

LOPEZ: Well, who would have thought that Britney Spears wasn't going to be the biggest thing on the show last night. So far, so good for him.

But I think the question is whether he can -- whether Michael Jackson can sort of pull a Jesse Jackson and move beyond his scandals, and not only get the initial press time and the initial hype with the comeback, but sustain that. And I think to do that he needs to provide something new.

Last night was great. He did the moonwalk; he did everything, you know, Michael Jackson is known for as they give an award to U2 named after him. So it was -- you know, it was cool, especially, as we've said, for the kids who haven't seen him before in action except for reruns.

But the question is, can he do something new, and sustain that hype.

BATTISTA: Let me check with some of the younger generation in the audience.

Shag (ph), you've heard the new song. You think it's pretty good.

SHAG: It's decent. We play it at the radio station I work at. We've gotten a decent review from the audience. I mean, his performance last night was basically a PR stunt. He tied in with the No. 1 pop act, and that's what he needs to do so that he can regain his supremacy, if that's what you want to call it.

BATTISTA: Spoken like a true radio professional.

Brit (ph), on the other hand, you weren't impressed.

BRIT: No, I was not impressed. I just think he's a big sellout, and the only reason he got with 'NSync is to appear to the younger audience because no one knows him, you know, except for people our age. And, you know, I wouldn't let my children see him because he comes back and he looks all scary looking.

BATTISTA: OK; all right, let's move on, OK. It gets weirder and weirder here. Childhood abuse, insanity, a lesbian relationship and pregnancy: Actress Anne Heche is talking about all of that and more promoting her book "Call Me Crazy." She says she once believed she spoke directly to God. She says sexual abuse by her father drove her over the edge and split her personality in two.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Is this an extension of love? Is this -- how does a girl 8, 9, 10, 11 view that?

ANNE HECHE, ACTRESS-AUTHOR, "CALL ME CRAZY": I think as love. I think that's the only way you can view the abuse, and that's part of what I think makes you crazy. Because you are receiving abuse and being told that it's love, and that complexity of thought is insane making. You try to make it right in every way that you can, because you know that it's not right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Now, I know this isn't hard hitting news or anything, and I know that we like to hear these sorts of stories from celebrities, but is this a little more than we need to know, Lisa, do you think?

EVERS: Bobbie, I think it definitely is. I mean child abuse, sexual abuse of children is a very serious issue, it certainly is something that we do need to talk about and address as a society.

But, I really have to question the timing of these very intimate revelations. It just smacks too much to me of a career move, carefully timed to give a boost to her career as she's kind of reinventing herself this time around, post Ellen.

BATTISTA: I'm not saying, I have no idea whether she's telling the truth, so I'm not accusing her one way or the other. But I'm always curious when folks write their autobiographies and they come out with these sorts of tales. Like, vets that stuff? You know, I mean do we know whether anybody's made a point of trying to figure out how much is true and how much isn't, or...?

EVERS: Well, I think that's one of the big factors, and I think that's an issue that raised. Any time somebody makes allegations about abuse that they suffered when they were a child, it's something that, again, has to be taken very seriously, and not to be minimized, or diminished, or to make light of it.

But you have to ask yourself, why at this time? Was there some sort of therapy? Was there an encounter with a person who was the abuser? Were there significant therapeutic steps, as well as law enforcement steps that were taken, or is this just something that spontaneously came about in terms of memory as she was writing these memoirs.

BATTISTA: Well, Martin, she says she was insane for 31 of her 32 years, and suddenly isn't anymore. LEWIS: Yes, it's very interesting of course. Saint Paul went to the road to Damascus to get his wisdom, she was on the road to Fresno to meet a space ship, took a hit of ecstasy. This is a very special lady.

Of course the topic of sexual abuse is a serious one, but to do this at a time just when Ellen DeGeneres just happens to have a new TV show coming out, shows how selfless Anne Heche is in her timing.

I'm also intrigued by this wonderful notion of herself as Celestial. Where was she when the Condit story broke? This was so much more interesting than the Condit story, we needed this a few weeks ago. I think this was run and run.

WILLIAMS: You know, actually, I don't really think many people really care. I just think this is someone who is really confused. She's a publicity hound. She knows exactly how to manipulate the media and get us to talk about it. I think she needs to take break away from it all. I think she's starving for publicity.

But also, on the flip side, I hope her story that she was able to overcome, and she found someone who can really love her, and that she's pregnant with a child. For the child's sake, I just hope she's OK now, because the real loser in all of this, if she's not OK, will be that unborn child.

BATTISTA: Kathryn?

LOPEZ: I feel a little guilty accusing Anne Heche of being a publicity hound, because I watched the Barbara Walters interview, and you know the interview won the time slot.

Why are we so fascinated by her and all her weirdnesses (sic), and publicity stunts and whatnot? That's sort of what I'm more curious about, than the details of her childhood and her life last year, her life with Ellen. But I don't disagree with anything that's been said, but we should all stop and wonder why we are so fascinated by this, and why we're paying attention, and going to buy her book and whatnot.

LEWIS: Well, it's the same topic that's obsessed everybody, or the media, about Gary Condit. It's really all about sex. I mean, actually twice now in my life I've had something in common with Ellen DeGeneres. Three years ago, like Ellen DeGeneres, I fancied Anne Heche, and now, like Ellen DeGeneres, I think this woman is out of her bloody mind.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Well, I've got to tell you, I don't think you are too far off the mark, I really don't.

BATTISTA: Last question here on this. Is this career suicide or career boost, do you think?

EVERS: Bobbie, this is a career boost for her, there's no question about it. I mean this was not career suicide. We have come to expect this of a lot of celebrities and a lot of stars to just reveal their most intimate aspects of their lives. I think this is giving her a career boost. She's been all over television, she's been all over the newspapers for several days, and we're talking about her. This is what she wants.

WILLIAMS: Well, is it short lived, though, is it short lived? And, are we talking about short gains?

Yes, she may get the boost that she needs right now, but what if the facts of the this story are not true, and when more details are revealed we find out that she really distorted the truth. So, time will only determine whether or not this was a boost for her, because in the long run she could still really lose, and could really have a mental breakdown over all of this.

BATTISTA: Jim in, I think it's Salina, Kansas, I'm not sure there, says:

I feel very sorry for Anne Heche and what her family had to go through with a man that didn't know how to raise a small child. I still think that she needs help.

Peggy in New York is on the phone. Petty, go ahead.

PEGGY: Hi, I just found it a little disturbing that she decide to have a child at this point in her life. She's so new in her recovering from this that maybe it just isn't the best time for her to bring a child into it. I was wondering how the panel felt about that.

LEWIS: Well, I think one thing you could say about her, she does make Michael Jackson look normal.

(LAUGHTER)

BATTISTA: I think it's hard to judge someone's private decision like that.

EVERS: Bobbie, I don't think you can make that decision. That's up to an individual.

BATTISTA: Right.

EVERS: That's up to an individual.

BATTISTA: I agree with you.

EVERS: I don't think you can second guess that decision.

WILLIAMS: And from all reports, and I'm no defender of Michael Jackson, everyone says he's a very good dad.

BATTISTA: That will be the last word on those two. OK?

We'll have to take a break here. And in a moment guess what, Gary Condit, Chandra Levy the Georgia legislator who says she talks to the dead.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Two senior aides to Gary Condit say the congressman is not discussing his political plans with House members. That, despite a "Washington Post" report that Condit is telling fellow Democrats that he's leaning toward retiring.

As for missing intern Chandra Levy, she remains missing, and the only person who claims to have heard anything is George Democratic state legislator, Dorothy Pelote. During a devotional message before the State House this week, Pelote told lawmakers that she speaks to the dead, and was last visited by Chandra Levy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOROTHY B. PELOTE (D), GEORGE STATE HOUSE: I can communicate with the dead. The last person that visited me was, I don't know if I need to call her name or not, and maybe I should not because it's a controversial death now. She's missing, you know who I'm talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: She later went on and did confirm that it was Chandra Levy she was talking about. Now, I just want to say up-front here that this woman is not known really to be a flake. I mean, she is from the district that the includes Savannah, which is an eccentric district. We recognize that here in Georgia. We love all the folks down in Savanna. They're very colorful, as they would say.

At the same time she is a retired teacher and a county commissioner. She is well-respected in the legislature so far as we can tell.

WILLIAMS: It sounds as if you are trying to convince us of that.

BATTISTA: Well, I don't want to jump all over this poor woman because I don't think that is fair.

WILLIAMS: She did it herself.

BATTISTA: Why do you suppose -- why do you think that she announced that, do you think?

EVERS: Why is this happening in the Georgia statehouse and not on some 900 number? I mean...

BATTISTA: You know, she immediately went into hiding after all of this coverage of it. I mean, nobody could reach her by phone. It is not like she was looking for publicity, I don't think.

WILLIAMS: All of a sudden she just happens to be communicating with the most well-known missing intern in the world right now, Chandra Levy. And of all of the dead people that could communicate with her. Especially of those who she knew who died, she is communicating with Chandra Levy. What a joke.

LOPEZ: Maybe we can have some news crossover and Anne Heche can check with God and make sure that this is true, confirm if it's true or not.

BATTISTA: Representative Pelote says that she has been psychic since she was a little girl and almost drowned.

LEWIS: Is that psychic or psycho?

WILLIAMS: You got it.

LEWIS: One of the things that is very clear that happened, she went into hiding. There happened to be a TV camera there. We, as a society have reached a point where anybody who wants to draw attention to him or her self simply says something controversial on TV. I can't wait for the interview with Barbara Walters that she is going to do. This is just insane.

(CROSSTALK)

EVERS: Bobbie, my question -- my question is: Who else is she talking to? I mean, if she claims to be communicating with Chandra Levy's spirit, then who else she communicating with?

BATTISTA: Who is talking back? That's what I would like to know.

EVERS: Yeah.

LOPEZ: Bobbie, remember earlier in the Condit story when we had the well-respected reverend who came out and said that his daughter had a relationship with Gary Condit. And that wound up not to be true. The daughter had never met Gary Condit. This guy just wanted publicity.

LEWIS: There is a serious point I would really like to make. I don't know if anyone remembers in that movie with Michael Douglass, "The American President." in that movie, as the president, he said something that is really important. He says that the issues in America are sometimes complex. They are not black or white. Sometimes there's areas of gray.

For example, I don't think that Gary Condit's conduct is particularly impressive. I am not very impressed by him at all. On the other hand, I also don't think that guy is a murderer and I think that it's shameful the way that the media has whipped this up and keeps turning on it. They are not interested in Chandra Levy. They are interested in a sexy story.

And if we could only be honest about that, I think that that would improve things.

WILLIAMS: You know what, I will tell you what. I will tell you what really disturbs me about what the legislator is saying. She is showing, even if she -- if this is what she feels and if you say she is a woman of integrity, Bobbie, I believe you, because I don't know. But for the pain of what Chandra Levy's parents are going through, she should keep it to herself, because she's only added more pain that she's communing with the dead because her parents want to believe that she is still alive.

BATTISTA: I don't really know. I was trying to help the poor woman out. But I will say she is retiring at the end of this term.

WILLIAMS: She needs to, quickly.

BATTISTA: ... to go into her psychic business full-time. So there you go. All right.

Still ahead: The racism conference and should there be reparations for slavery? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: At the World Racism Conference in Durbin, South Africa, the European Union has agreed in principle to express for regret of slavery. That is short of an apology since the E.U. feels language defining slavery is a crime against would leave nations open to lawsuits of demands for reparations.

This pretty much set the tone for that entire conference this week. Was there anything at all that they agreed on, or was this whole thing just sort of doomed to fail from the beginning -- Armstrong?

WILLIAMS: I will tell you what I found interesting. There was a release today where many members of the European communities signed -- reached an agreement with this conference apologizing for slavery. And which meant that they could not come back and there would be a legal issue.

I find it also interesting that the president of Nigeria said, you know, yeah, you can apologize, but it's ridiculous for you to ask for money. And also another African president said that they own slaves. I mean, no one wants to talk about the role that Arab nations and African nations had in slavery.

I mean, it's just totally -- it's just so absurd and even with the issue of Zionism, it was agreed upon before the conference ever started, that the Arab nations would not bring the issue up on Zionism. And so they just breached a trust which was reached before the conference ever started.

The United States and our Secretary Of State General Colin Powell did the right thing by pulling out. Because who is alive today who is responsible for slaves! It would totally bankrupt this country. I think that it's an insult to ask for an apology. And if someone were to pay me, I wouldn't take the money because it is offensive.

People need to find what most people do. They need to find real jobs, they need to work, they need to realize that there are obstacles in society and they realize that they just need to get over it, and move on with their lives because they are not going to get paid.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly because we have a couple of guys -- you guys are with the new Black Panther Party, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, Mr. Armstrong has always been a mouth piece for White America. He needs to read the book, "Black Labor, White Wealth." And I am ashamed that he would sit there and defend President Bush after standing there and saying that he wouldn't go to the conference on reparations for our people here in America when the people that he was defending which are the Jewish race, got more reparations than any other human beings living on Earth.

And their holocaust was in Germany and the black liberators helped bring them out of Germany and out of the ovens of Germany and we sit here and built the country from the ground up. Benjamin Bannika (ph) designed the White House -- I mean designed Washington, D.C. And Lewis Lattimore put the street lights, design -- we of African dissent have built America. And we don't deserve only an apology, we deserve reparations and we deserve them now.

WILLIAMS: How much would you like to be paid? How much would satisfy you, and are you going to assure us that once you are paid that this argument is over?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First thing we need to do is do what any smart people would do, like the Jewish people, which are still watching Swiss bank accounts, which are still chasing Germans and locking them up for their holocaust.

WILLIAMS: But how much should we be paid?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should get with our black bankers and our economic professors and come up with a real plan, and we shouldn't joke with this because --...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because Emmett Till would have to talk. The four little girls in the Birmingham bombing would have to talk, slaves all across the Atlantic ocean would have to talk. And you do not talk with them! We will! And soon America will have to deal with this, one way or the other.

BATTISTA: I am curious -- well -- go ahead...

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I just think that it's sad because every -- if you -- if you research the history of the world, every ethnic group, I mean, all of us have come from a history that we should be ashamed of. All of us have obstacles and many of us have been enslaved at some point in this history. But people have learned to overcome. And also, when Americans were involved in slavery, America was a colony under the British empire at the time. And also, the mechanisms are not even in place to consider how you would...

BATTISTA: I sort of think that if you are going to do this sort of thing, you have to do it for everybody. And who is going to pay the reparations to the Native American culture? We wiped them out -- practically wiped them off of the face of this country. They were here first.

So I don't know -- what I'm saying, though, realistically, practically speaking, I don't know where you stop, and I don't know where we're going to get all the money. And what's that really going to do to repair what we've done to some of these ethnic groups?

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: One thing you have to start with for the first place is a real sincere apology. And it's very easy for somebody like Armstrong, who is well-educated and intelligent. He's done well in his life. However, if we are -- we do not have an even playing field. African- Americans are severely disadvantaged in our society, and racism continues to be there...

WILLIAMS: Come on, man.

LEWIS: And it's no good turning around and saying, oh, it wasn't our generation who did this. We still hold Germany accountable -- rightly hold them accountable as a nation for the damage that they did to the Jewish people. And therefore, there was a massive injustice done to African-Americans that lives on in the racism today.

So we should consider a sincere apology, and some form of economic reparation. I believe that's important.

EVERS: Bobbie, we've seen many apologies in recent years for atrocities that were committed during wars, for atrocities that have been committed at various points in history. Even the pope has apologized for some of the actions of the Catholic Church.

I think instead of focusing so much on the money and how reparations would be paid, what we need to focus on is getting a correct view of American history, of slavery, of what was done to Native Americans and have that be part of our curriculum and have it be something that everybody can agree on, and at least start there with an acknowledgment of what was actually done.

LOPEZ: More so, I think we need to start living in the present and stop dwelling in the past, stop playing the victimization card. I think it's conversations and demands like the gentleman in the audience made that doomed this conference and will doom every conference like it, and dooms every conference that has to do with racism.

It's people playing the victimization card. And as Bobbie said, if we started giving to one group, we would start going down the line. And as Armstrong said earlier, we can't even -- we don't have anything in place. Are we going to create some world tribunal of reparations, and every ethnic group that wants reparations is going to get money or something?

LEWIS: That's such a ridiculous buzzword: "victimization." Oh, so Jews who suffered in the Holocaust, they're victimization victims? No! There are real victims.

LOPEZ: I'm not saying that they didn't -- I didn't -- I'm not saying that they didn't suffer; I'm not saying that they didn't die. I'm saying, as other people said earlier, that people suffered. That happened in the past. We should note that, we should teach our children that, but we shouldn't dwell in that and start making demands for things that happened generations ago.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let me get some audience...

WILLIAMS: I'll tell what you bothers me -- just one minute -- when a man said that blacks are severely hampered by racism and bigotry in this society. No one can ever ignore what human slavery and danger segregation wrought on this society. And everyone knows that we still pay a price for it today. In fact, it is the stain of our society; it is our shame.

But one thing we've got to realize now is that we may have all come over here on different boats, but we're on the same ship now. We'll either sink together or we'll swim together. And you cannot say just because someone is black now, they are disadvantaged. What you need to focus on is why -- how people like the immigrants come into this country every day with nothing and they build success stories and realize the American dreams.

There are so many Americans out there today who happen to be black who are achieving their American dreams, taking care of their families. They don't measure everything by money and things. The measure -- it's reflected back through their families. People are overcoming. Why don't we focus on that more? because I tell you they're in the majority, and what we're talking about right now is in the minority.

People want to get over this. No one will ever say that what happened in the past should not be addressed. But it...

LEWIS: That is not so, to say that's the minority. There are a large, large number of African-American families who suffer because of the absolute racism in this country. And that is appalling -- something that has to be properly addressed, and you're ignoring that, Armstrong.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break.

WILLIAMS: You have civil rights laws on the books, OK. You enforce the laws. BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here. The audience has a lot to say about this, and I've got phone calls, so we'll continue with this topic in just a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right, let me go to the Frank (ph) in the audience first here.

Go ahead, Frank.

FRANK: Yes, Bobbie, I'm a white guy; I live in south Georgia. And basically my grandparents came over on the boat from the Ukraine because they were being persecuting by the Russians. But as a person with white skin, do I owe a check to someone even though my grandparents weren't in this country, or is there a formula that needs to be worked out?

BATTISTA: Is that a rhetorical question?

FRANK: I would hope so. Am I supposed to cut a check at this point?

BATTISTA: Let me go to Tony (ph) on the phone in New York -- Tony -- is it New York or New Jersey?

Tony, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi, I'm an African-American female, and I really do believe that until we address the issue of racism in this country, it will never die. I think that, as African-Americans, we deserve to have an apology for slavery. And until that happens, we cannot begin to heal.

BATTISTA: How do you feel about reparations?

WILLIAMS: I don't think that you realize -- I'm sorry -- I don't think you realize something: President Clinton tried that in his administration when he was over in Africa, and he was just blown out of the water by it. Even in opinion polls, people did not want it.

This is nothing new. They have apologized, and Americans who just happened to be black were offended by that apology.

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: I can't believe all these right-wing people have been hounding Gary Condit to apologize for having an affair, and they don't want an apology from a nation for slavery. Come on, get a grip!

LOPEZ: Because Gary Condit actually did something. The people that are supposedly supposed to pay money didn't do anything. These...

LEWIS: This nation...

(CROSSTALK)

LOPEZ: ... generations ago versus a congressman in Congress who lied to the police about his involvement with this girl and hampered a police investigation. There's no comparison.

LEWIS: This nation enslaved people. I think that's worth a word of apology. It's not that tough to apologize.

LOPEZ: Well, as Armstrong just said, we have done that already. How many times do you want apologies?

(CROSSTALK)

LOPEZ: Is there some magic number, when you hit number 12 all of a sudden the apology is going to take? It doesn't make any sense.

LEWIS: A meaningful apology will be redressing the imbalance in society and educating people about America's shameful past of racism and slavery. That would be a meaningful start.

LOPEZ: Does that mean racial preferences?

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: ... the Holocaust Museum.

BATTISTA: Let me take Sharon on the phone. Sharon, go ahead.

SHARON: Well, they say they want to make reparations to a group of people who have suffered throughout history, how about women? Some of the women in the Islamic nations that attended that conference are nothing better than slaves there. So why not -- and it has happened with Indians, it's happened with blacks, it's happened with whites. Women have suffered all through the -- all through history.

BATTISTA: And Walter, you had a point there, sir, go ahead.

WALTER: Oh, just the fact that at the conference, we talked about the past, but what about the changes we can make now in slavery that exists today in Africa and in Southeast Asia? That's something that we can do something about now, and then come back to these subjects later.

LOPEZ: That's a very good point. And the other point I would like to make, what are we -- we are sort of demeaning what actually happened generations ago. You know, what would the people who actually died in the Holocaust or who were actually slaves and suffered and died would think of the fact that somebody four generation later thinks that he deserves something for nothing he was ever involved in, nothing he ever suffered from?

BATTISTA: We got to let the -- is that the last word, or do we have another segment here? We will go to break and we'll check our online poll, and the question was about Michael Jackson today. So log on and take a vote. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: We don't have that much time left, but one more comment on racism, and John (ph), I am going to sum up what you said, because we don't have a lot of time. But basically, you thought it was a sign of disrespect that the United States did not send a high- level representative to this conference. Our panel, do you agree?

LEWIS: I think it was a terrible shame, because Colin Powell is a very eloquent, well-spoken man. I did not agree with the ridiculous things they were saying, equating Zionism with racism, but Colin Powell should have been there to put the views of America eloquently, rather than just ducking it.

WILLIAMS: He did the right thing by not showing up.

LOPEZ: I think we did the right thing.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. It was the honorable thing to do.

LOPEZ: Israel's a nation that's being attacked, and here the United Nations was attacking them. It was wrong, and we did the right thing.

EVERS: When you see how the conference played out, it's obvious we did the right thing.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

BATTISTA: All right. Kathryn Lopez, Armstrong Williams, Martin Lewis and Lisa Evers, thank you all very much for being with us.

LOPEZ: Thank you, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Appreciate it.

A quick look at the poll before we go. The question: "Michael Jackson still a thriller?" And 34 percent of you say yes, 66 percent say "beat it!"

Oh, come on, we all want him to make a comeback. You know what I mean? We want him to do something fresh.

All right, thank you all very much for being with us. We are totally out of time here. Have a great weekend, and we will see you again on Monday for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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